India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

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MeshaVishwas
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby MeshaVishwas » 25 Aug 2019 18:57


Happy to see the enthusiastic participation of Private players in this critical area.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby JayS » 25 Aug 2019 22:50

Dileep wrote:No. These were the XXX Technologies type small companies started by tech savy individuals. But the XXL DPSU and YYY-XXL subsidiaries are no different.

Of course they do the type tests and HASS procedure properly. But nothing on the 'assurance' side. This attitude is normal in the 'desi jugad' way of doing things.

Here is another counter argument. We still have a fighter aircraft program with zero major failure. (Touch Wood). Maybe this is OK for building fighters. Maybe the Russians do it like this. But if you want to get into passenger aircraft, or western military aircraft, you got a lot of growing to do.


Just few thoughts - I recently started working with some of the Tier2/3 level supplier MFG units in Massa land. Though I am not a production engineer, I do have basic understanding being a Mechanical Engg. My observation from multiple such units is that they are in the similar state as you described those couple of Indian units above. Not the same level in absolute terms perhaps but similar levels in terms of level or expectations from such units in their respective countries. Those units shook up my belief about so-called high tech mfg suppliers in the West. Unexpectedly ad-hoc mannerism in all processes. Serious lack of engineering capability and understanding of what is happening in terms of Physics and various process parameters and so on. (but good thing is they want to improve and not continue with the jugaad as long as it lasts) But the units are still managing to supply to world's leading OEMs in main stream global aerospace programs with very tight requirements. After a lot of thinking, I came to a conclusion that what really enables them to deliver decent quality parts even with bare minimum understanding of what they are exactly doing, is the abstraction done in the form of various "Standards". Every thing has a standard for it, which specifies basic minimum things to be done in specified manner. The standards are built over meticulous work in all kinds of production and manufacturing RnD over decades and codified in simple-to-follow rules, processes, requirements and so on. Just blindly following the relevant standards would take you 80-90% or even 100% over the line. Of coarse there are site, product and process specific issues, but these are mainly the last 10-20% gap, which can be filled using trial-and-error method, without having to dive deeply into the Physics or Chemistry. This make things so simple for operators on the lower rungs of the value chain. It basically removes the RnD part completely and only operational issues are left to dealt with. Now, this is a bit of simplification of the scenario I have observed, but the gist is this.

We, in India, need to create this kind of base, which is well validated and widely accepted by the industry. But for now, our private players can still leverage work done by Western countries in many areas. Of coarse not everything is readily accessible and US has a very deep manufacturing ecosystem which offers readily available support, which we lack, but we perhaps could leverage that as well in form of consultancy on lower end of technology to speed up industrialization. majority of MFG is relatively low end anyway, even in Aerospace.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Vips » 27 Aug 2019 00:27

Contract for installation and commissioning of nine Precision Approach Radars concludes between MoD and M/s Data Pattern (India) Pvt Ltd.

A contract act for installation and commissioning of nine Precision Approach Radars (PARs) was concluded today between Ministry of Defence and M/s Data Pattern (India) Pvt Ltd at a cost of Rs 380 crores under ‘Buy Indian’ category. The state-of-the-art radars incorporating latest Phased Array technology will be installed at Indian Naval Air Stations and Indian Air Force Stations.

The installation of these radars will enhance the Flight Safety at the terminal stages of aircraft landing at the airfields. The installation and commissioning of radars at Indian Naval Air Stations is envisaged to be completed by April 2022 and at Indian Air Force Stations by December 2022.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby jaysimha » 30 Aug 2019 15:00

DRDO TECHNOLOGY FOCUS
VOL 27 ISSUE 5 OCTOBER 2019

Defence Research Laboratory (DRL), Tezpur,
Protection Technologies for Soldiers
https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfo ... 19_web.pdf

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby jaysimha » 03 Sep 2019 14:47

The Naval Science and technology ( NSTL)
50 Glorious Yesra and growing stronger.
Making a beginning with a handful of scientists in 1969, NSTL’s march of excellence inspires awe

Image
https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Visakhapatnam/50-glorious-years-and-growing-stronger/article29282893.ece

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Saral » 09 Sep 2019 01:56

Admins. Please delete if inappropriate. Know the person.
Story of talented IITM BTech graduate from 1980s.

-----
I joined DRDO. I was there happily. I wrote GATE and got admission to MTech in IISc. I applied for "deputation". That is asking DRDO to keep me on the rolls and pay me to do MTech. My Director did not approve. There is a DRDO/Armed forces quota of seats for MTech in IISc. He got one such seat for his preferred candidate and sent him up. He did not have to write any exam, just pass a namke vasthe interview to be admitted. That officer was so out of touch with engg, he failed that eye-wash interview. Now the director did not want to admit reserving a seat for such a candidate. He put my name and sent me in. Thus even the sponsorship was to save his face, not because he thought I deserved it.

After I finished I returned to ADE. And learnt that exactly at the time they deputed me to do masters in IISc, he sponsored another candidate to do masters in Toulouse France. That opening was not even known to any of us. Only when that officer returned and bragged about it we learnt about it. He was a kind of family friend relative of the Director's wife. 

It was not that he did not know me or about my back ground. When DRDO asked him to nominate someone to participate in Siddarth Basu's India Quiz, he nominated me. I made a decent showing (did not get knocked out in the first round). So he knew all about me. I felt he treated me unfairly in the France assignment. Then he rejected my application to do part time PhD in IISc. I was very upset and I resigned.  I would be the Director of ADE if I had stayed back. The present director was my junior. I would have headed some of the projects.  I was the kind of guy who spent 4 days a week tutoring slum kids in Taramani for five years. Was quite patriotic and would have stayed back and tried my best to correct the system from within.

I had an easy means of escape.  I wrote to Dale Anderson, one of the big shots in CFD. No application, no GRE, no transcript. Just a letter and some pictures of the grids I had generated for airfoils. I got a 1000$/month assistantship and admission to a PhD program, nearly instantaneously. 

I guess 2 to 3% of our IIT grads join these services CSIR, ISRO, DRDO. But the attrition rate is high, means of escape is easy. Nowadays with booming Indian private sector, and the name brand IITs have developed, it is even more easy to leave. So the attrition rate is pretty high.
Recruitment is just the start. Need to find a way to retain them and keep them motivated and resist the temptation of Foreign countries and private sector.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 09 Sep 2019 04:03

Kinda explains the state ADE was in, unlike some of the other labs. As they say, fish rot from the head.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby ramana » 09 Sep 2019 04:21

saral, From IITM?

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Saral » 09 Sep 2019 10:06

Yup

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby ramana » 09 Sep 2019 22:19

Thanks.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby SaiK » 10 Sep 2019 00:36

India to spend a whopping $130 billion for military modernization in next 5-7 years

Read more at:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... aign=cppst

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 10 Sep 2019 00:50

Lets see. The offsets should help.

Also:
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/drdo- ... 29870.html

Vijay Mohan

Tribune News Service

Chandigarh, September 8
The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is developing a new variant of a rifle-launched grenade having more advanced technical and safety features than the present generation of grenades.

The grenade, which has 40 mm caliber, can be launched from an “under-barrel launcher” (UBL) fixed to the fore of a standard issue rifle or from a multiple grenade launcher (MGL), a dedicated hand-held weapon used to fire grenades from a cylindrical magazine similar to that in a conventional revolver.
............
According to sources, the DRDO has invited the private industry to participate in its development and manufacturing.
...........

According to reports, the Army has an annual requirement of about three lakh 40 mm grenades.

The grenade is being developed by the Armament Research and Development Establishment. At present, the Army is using two calibers of weapon-launched grenades. The 30 mm, which is fired from a heavy, tripod-mounted automatic grenade launcher, and the 40 mm variant that is fired from a UBL or MGL. Two types of UBLs—one designed by the DRDO is integrated with the rifle’s firing mechanism and a Russian variant that has its own trigger—are in use.

“Besides use of composite materials from the fabrication of the body of the new grenade, a major technological upgrade vis-à-vis the older grenades would be the use of advanced new generation fuses that trigger the detonation,” a DRDO scientist said. “Some additional reliability and safety features are also envisaged,” he added.

Recently, DRDO’s Chandigarh-based Terminal Ballistics Research Laboratory had developed advanced fuses for various kinds of service ordnance and warheads that are claimed to enhance the lethality, safety and reliability. A few years ago, it had also developed a hand-thrown grenade.
.............
With weapon-launched grenades, targets such as troops, enemy posts and bunkers, vehicles and buildings can be engaged up to 400 metres.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 10 Sep 2019 00:53

https://www.deccanherald.com/national/n ... 60227.html

No imports on radars, sonars in 5 years: DRDO Chief

The new systems include Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft – the twin-engine medium weight fighter aircraft with 5th generation technologies, unmanned combat aerial, next-generation battle tanks, air-borne warning and control systems and high endurance UAV
Among the missiles, the aim is to develop naval anti-ship missiles and long-range hypersonic cruise missiles. Among the sensors and electronic warfare systems, R&D on very long-range radar, over-the-horizon radar, quantum radar and sensors suite for submarines are being undertaken. In the propulsion and engine field, high thrust aero engine, Wheeled vehicle engine with 1500 horse power and 600 hp are being developed. In the next 4-8 years, we should have prototypes and initial trials ...

We received further orders on Aakash and concluded the user trials for Nag anti-tank missile, which will be inducted soon. The Helina trials will be completed this year whereas the trials for the MPATGM will be finished next year. The trials are also going on for Stand-off anti-tank missile. Other future missile programs include Akash NG, MRSAM for Army, VL-Astra, AAM-Astra MK-II, ASM-Rudra-M and naval anti-ship missile.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby ramana » 10 Sep 2019 01:39

ramana wrote:saral, From IITM?


Rebuttal by email from a lurker



Every organization and environment has its characteristics.

Sad to see talented people leave INDIA; but not all such losses are bad.

Managers have to make choices and recommendations based on many aspects. Personal and organizational loyalties are also important.

Your IITM friend wanted to do MTech in IISc. Somehow he got the deputation he wanted. He should be happy with it. Can’t complain about the opportunity he didn’t know.

The fact that your friend left for next available PHD offer after taking benefit of paid MTech program is indicative of his (lack of) organizational loyalty.

A manager has to spread various opportunities to different people with different profiles.

An IITM losing a possible career progression to Director of ADE for $1000/m stipend is not indicative of smart career planning nor organizational loyalty.

INDIA is not USA where a professor can offer a PHD seat based on some one email. Lot of paperwork must be done.

At the end your IITM friend gravitated to an environment that suits him. Wonder what he is doing now after 20 years in USA.

Alternative history is very interesting topic. Lot of people claim and lament they would be in some important position if only they made a different choice.

Secondly your IITM friend might not have made to director position just cause he is senior to current director. He is asking for seniority as criteria in one situation and his talent/interest as criteria when it suits him. Not done.

People from IIT/IIM created a reputation of personal-goals first organizational loyalty be damned. They thrive in US like dog eats dog environment. For every one IIT successful story in US there are 1000 mediocre stories.

Yes, India is losing/lost well trained smart minds in this process. Yes, INDIA has its inefficiencies but so are others.

But INDIA can’t and won’t stop for individuals. Individuals must make a choice if they want to be part of INDIA story or their personal story.

India moves on.

Get inspired by Dr. K..Sivan


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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby nam » 10 Sep 2019 02:05

So the DRDO chief mentions about VL-Astra, different from QRSAM? He also talks about Astra-2, doesn't say if it will be ramjet or dual pulsed.

Next gen tank is mentioned. Looks like T14 is not getting in that easily.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Indranil » 10 Sep 2019 02:57

Of course, VL-Astra is very different from QRSAM.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby ramana » 10 Sep 2019 03:04

Karan M wrote:Lets see. The offsets should help.

Also:
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/drdo- ... 29870.html

Vijay Mohan

Tribune News Service

Chandigarh, September 8
The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is developing a new variant of a rifle-launched grenade having more advanced technical and safety features than the present generation of grenades.

The grenade, which has 40 mm caliber, can be launched from an “under-barrel launcher” (UBL) fixed to the fore of a standard issue rifle or from a multiple grenade launcher (MGL), a dedicated hand-held weapon used to fire grenades from a cylindrical magazine similar to that in a conventional revolver.
............
According to sources, the DRDO has invited the private industry to participate in its development and manufacturing.
...........

According to reports, the Army has an annual requirement of about three lakh 40 mm grenades.

The grenade is being developed by the Armament Research and Development Establishment. At present, the Army is using two calibers of weapon-launched grenades. The 30 mm, which is fired from a heavy, tripod-mounted automatic grenade launcher, and the 40 mm variant that is fired from a UBL or MGL. Two types of UBLs—one designed by the DRDO is integrated with the rifle’s firing mechanism and a Russian variant that has its own trigger—are in use.

Besides use of composite materials from the fabrication of the body of the new grenade, a major technological upgrade vis-à-vis the older grenades would be the use of advanced new generation fuses that trigger the detonation,” a DRDO scientist said. “Some additional reliability and safety features are also envisaged,” he added.

Recently, DRDO’s Chandigarh-based Terminal Ballistics Research Laboratory had developed advanced fuses for various kinds of service ordnance and warheads that are claimed to enhance the lethality, safety and reliability. A few years ago, it had also developed a hand-thrown grenade.
.............
With weapon-launched grenades, targets such as troops, enemy posts and bunkers, vehicles and buildings can be engaged up to 400 metres.



Current 40mm grenade is the US 40x 46mm.

Looks like the plan is to install advance fuzes and upgrade the design.

And make it multi-mode effects by looking at the targets.

This way the current launchers UBL and MGL are still valid. Basically Infantry Section weaponry.

UBL

MGL

If you scan the OFB site they don't make these ammo.

So good for private industry to work ab initio.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 10 Sep 2019 03:33

I have been reading about the casualties that the IA has taken - especially its SF elements, and I have to say despite the "IA knows best" blowback which is invariably the case whenever anyone even moderately attempts to point out lacunae in IA etc, there is a clear case to be made for their lack of firepower, and sensors. The casualties all follow a predictable pattern - bullet hitting an undefended area, the troops getting pinned down in an indefensible position and unwilling/unable to retreat, lack firepower in depth. They are usually on par with their opponents. No mention of sophisticated hand-held UAVs (first look), or heavy usage of RLs or underslung grenade launchers like above, BPJs are like old-school flak jackets with limited coverage. I can only hope things change. Otherwise we are throwing pearls before swine.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 10 Sep 2019 03:46

Indranil wrote:Of course, VL-Astra is very different from QRSAM.


VL-Astra may well be better than QRSAM in that it offers QRSAM type coverage but with greater altitude limits and also is more flexible (you don't need a launcher to be aligned towards the target).

How many programs though from DRDO alone, mind-boggling.

- Akash, Akash Mk1S
- Akash NG
- QRSAM
- SRSAM (same as VL-Astra?)
- MRSAM (IAF), LRSAM (Navy), MRSAM (IA)
- XRSAM (same as PDV/AAD?)
- Program AD (PDV/AAD, now Phase 2 in devpt)
- Astra, Astra Mk2
- SFDR
- VL-Astra
- Nag/PROSPINA
- Helina
- MPATGM
- CLGM (Arjun missile)
- SANT
- NGARM (Rudra M1), Rudra M2/M3 (NGARM body with different seeker types)
- PGHSLD (different bomb types, laser seeker + satnav)
- Garuda/Garuthma glide bombs (wing kits + satnav)
- SAAW
- MPGMs (PGM warheads)/UAV launched missiles
- Pinaka 1, 2 guided
- Pralay (Shourya variant)
- Prahar (AAD redesigned)
- Naval anti-ship missile (desi Penguin/Sea Skua?)
- Nirbhay (Sea/Air/Land)
- Brahmos ER (800km beyond current 450km?)
- Brahmos NG (lightweight, multi-purpose)
-Brahmos hypersonic

This is apart from the strategic programs. I am sure I missed a bunch above.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 10 Sep 2019 03:48

I mean once these programs start finishing user trials - many of them are in advanced prototyping, tests.. India's warfighting would have taken a quantum leap forward. We'd literally be able to do Akash scale orders across the board. All our frontline assets would be PGM heavy and we'd be able to deploy them in numbers that saturate advanced defences.

Now add the research into Swarm UAVs at HAL etc - even if its in its infancy, it's still promising.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Indranil » 10 Sep 2019 04:22

Karan M wrote:
Indranil wrote:Of course, VL-Astra is very different from QRSAM.


VL-Astra may well be better than QRSAM in that it offers QRSAM type coverage but with greater altitude limits and also is more flexible (you don't need a launcher to be aligned towards the target).

Don't know about the altitude. Without a booster Astra will have much lower energy than QRSAM.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby ramana » 10 Sep 2019 04:48

Karan M wrote:I have been reading about the casualties that the IA has taken - especially its SF elements, and I have to say despite the "IA knows best" blowback which is invariably the case whenever anyone even moderately attempts to point out lacunae in IA etc, there is a clear case to be made for their lack of firepower, and sensors. The casualties all follow a predictable pattern - bullet hitting an undefended area, the troops getting pinned down in an indefensible position and unwilling/unable to retreat, lack firepower in depth. They are usually on par with their opponents. No mention of sophisticated hand-held UAVs (first look), or heavy usage of RLs or underslung grenade launchers like above, BPJs are like old-school flak jackets with limited coverage. I can only hope things change. Otherwise we are throwing pearls before swine.



I was reading about development of grenade launchers in US Army.
The old WWII era rifle grenade was terrible.
It was felt that the platoon firepower needs augmenting.
A program was launched to develop a new rifle grenade which delivers significant end effects.
Two track approach was taken : low power and and high power versions.
The low power version was used for rifle and shot gun type of use for short range.
The high power version was used for section use with a bi-pod and high rate of fire for longer range.
The high power version was issued to navy boats also.
This one was sued to fire back at snipers.
In one minute it could dump the equivalent of 300 lbs of explosive to 2km range!!!!
No more sniper shooting at platoons.

Along the way they standardized on two models 40x 46mm low power and 40x53mm high power

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/40_mm_grenade

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Vayutuvan » 10 Sep 2019 05:13

JayS wrote:It basically removes the RnD part completely and only operational issues are left to dealt with. Now, this is a bit of simplification of the scenario I have observed, but the gist is this. ...
majority of MFG is relatively low end anyway, even in Aerospace.


One difference is that massa UG education, on the average, is quite rigorous. In India, that kind of education is available only in the top 10% of the Engg. colleges (if that). High School coupled with a two-year community college AS degree is as good as BSc. engg of 75%ile degree colleges of Bharat.
Last edited by Vayutuvan on 10 Sep 2019 21:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Vips » 10 Sep 2019 06:48

WIN begins work on construction of second plant in Bengaluru.

The Aerospace business of Wipro Infrastructure Engineering (WIN) on Monday said it has commenced the construction of its second plant in the city, which will house Aerostructure Machining and Surface Treatment Lines for aerospace components and would employ about 300 people.

The company performed a ground-breaking ceremony for the new plant in Aerospace Special Economic Zone at Devanahalli here.

Spread over ten acres, the plant will come up in phases, the company in a release said adding, in the first phase, machining operations will start in the first quarter of 2020.In the second, surface treatment lines for aerospace components will commence by 2021, it said, adding that when the new facility is fully operational, it would employ about 300 people.The first plant, spread over seven acres, manufactures hydraulic actuator parts for landing gears and engine cowl opening systems, the company said.

Besides, the company manufactures aero structural parts, it said, in January this year, the Wipro Aerospace commenced deliveries to Boeing from this plant.

"We believe in building an integrated ecosystem for precision flight-critical components and systems. This is important to our success.Once the second plant becomes operational, our facilities will be spread over 17 acres in the SEZ in Devanahalli," Wipro Infrastructure Engineering CEO Pratik Kumar said.

Wipro Infrastructure Engineering (WIN) set up the aerospace business in 2013 as a solutions provider in Actuators (Cylinder & Piston),Aerostructures, Machining, Sheet Metal, Assembly and Testing.

"Over the years Wipro Aerospace has built its capability in precision actuator and aerostructure parts. With this expansion, we will be well positioned for assembly and testing of actuators as well as critical landing system structural assemblies," Head of Aerospace Business in IndiaSrinivas Devareddy said.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Saral » 10 Sep 2019 08:27

ramana wrote:Rebuttal by email from a lurker
Every organization and environment has its characteristics. etc. (deleted. see original post)

The reason I posted that initial recollection was not for a single anecdote but for the possibility that it could shed some light on whether Indian orgs have a systemic weakness in recognizing and retaining extreme talent (and structural factors). Of course, not all talent will reach potential (that's normal regression to the mean). That weakness existed(?) 30 years back and, quite possibly (based on my current observations in a Desi co), still does. Some of this could be due to bad leadership and quite possibly can account for divergences across orgs and labs. The saying "A-class people attract/hire/retain A-class people but B-class (or worse) can only attract/hire/retain C-class (or worse)" is apt. In a team, inclusion of one substandard person can drastically bring down the productivity of the ones who are talented. I do not know how Indian orgs/labs deal with this given various compulsions like reservations etc. If my hypothesis has merit, then India, which does not have the luxury of abundant talent, must be very creative on how it manages talent/resources. But back to this individual "V" who I know quite well. V chose to work in India for 5 years at a time when jobs were scarce and when about 80% or more of his batchmates went abroad (or the IIMs) immediately upon graduation. V came from a very humble background, studied in Tamil medium schools and somehow learnt of the JEE etc. and most of his English was picked up in high school and later. V had a significant physical disability. In addition, as mentioned in my earlier note V volunteered (during his IITM days) to teach slum kids for many more years than warranted by the first year commitment to national social service. V was not a smooth talker, an engg nerd with practical and conceptual skills. Despite his evident talent (potential not yet realized) the incompetent/corrupt director would not allow him to pursue a part time PhD at IISc (that was his ask), something that he was very serious about. Socially, V is very unlike your typical engg student of those days (tamil medium, lower middle class etc), especially those in IITs. He likely did not possess the charm/skills to schmooze and persuade his director. So the lurker is likely right in that a person with his personality would not have been a general management director type. I emailed him with the above observations that the lurker provided.
V wrote: I would not be this harsh about myself, but there is some truth in what he (the lurker) is saying. I had to pay back the salary of 18 months to quit. In fact I admitted I was a quitter and changed the topic to the positive story of Gangan Prathap (possibly 10+ years our senior) who has had a distinguished career. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangan_Pratap Gangan became the director of NAL. He might have been ill treated when he was a junior scientist. He did not seem to have any serious connections with the power structure. But he had enough patriotism to tolerate the doofus directors and principal scientific officers to stick to it. My colleague is friends with him and has interacted with him. Did PhD together at IITM I think in aircraft structures. So I heard from him that Gangan does not have much regrets about not following the beaten path to America. He had some minor pangs of regret and some kind of soul searching when his kids were looking for colleges, careers. Some about not giving his wife creature comforts of air-conditioned homes and cars. But over all he was still patriotic and did not end up as a disillusioned cynic. Gangan has written on the talent drain some time back. https://www.academia.edu/2696214/A_soft_mathematical_model_for_brain_drain

In USA I have been working for the same company for 25+years. Loyalty? May be inertia and laziness too. Accomplishment is in a very special super specialization. I did the architecture for solution adaptive mesh refinement for electromagnetic finite element method for my company. We were able to beat all the competitors with it, took 80% of the market share in our product area. Those days it was a less than 3 million a year market. Presently we sell about 250 million a year of FE solution. It was not all due to me. But my work was a critical part of the solution process that was so much more efficient than the competition that we just obliterated it. I have helped in simulation of some of spaceX dragon capsule signal integrity etc, some for hyperloop and some for tesla. But, our product is used by almost all the companies and I have done meshing for all of them. I mean all the car companies, all the cell phone companies, all the camera companies, all the circuit board companies. I don't have a huge team reporting to me and I still actually write code. Over all very satisfying career, well rewarded financially.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 10 Sep 2019 11:26

All this is very lab and management driven, and also a consistent issue in India.

Forget public sector, I have far worse horror stories about the private sector in India. All that is driven by top management.

DRDO now has several labs which have been delivering consistently. Some which have been hidden away from the limelight and been struggling for a while. ADE is one of those, its Nirbhay, Rustom programs are its effort to get back into the limelight. Lets see..

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby jaysimha » 10 Sep 2019 11:27

https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/newsletter/2019/sep_19.pdf
DRDO News letter
september 2019 | volume 39 | issue 09
DRDO successfully TESTS stateof-the-art QRSAM
Design of Mobile Metallic Ramp Handed Over to Indian Army
RCI signs LATOT of Control Grade Fiber Optic Gyroscopes
DIPAS signs LATOT of Female Full Body Protector

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 10 Sep 2019 11:29

ramana wrote:
Karan M wrote:I have been reading about the casualties that the IA has taken - especially its SF elements, and I have to say despite the "IA knows best" blowback which is invariably the case whenever anyone even moderately attempts to point out lacunae in IA etc, there is a clear case to be made for their lack of firepower, and sensors. The casualties all follow a predictable pattern - bullet hitting an undefended area, the troops getting pinned down in an indefensible position and unwilling/unable to retreat, lack firepower in depth. They are usually on par with their opponents. No mention of sophisticated hand-held UAVs (first look), or heavy usage of RLs or underslung grenade launchers like above, BPJs are like old-school flak jackets with limited coverage. I can only hope things change. Otherwise we are throwing pearls before swine.



I was reading about development of grenade launchers in US Army.
The old WWII era rifle grenade was terrible.
It was felt that the platoon firepower needs augmenting.
A program was launched to develop a new rifle grenade which delivers significant end effects.
Two track approach was taken : low power and and high power versions.
The low power version was used for rifle and shot gun type of use for short range.
The high power version was used for section use with a bi-pod and high rate of fire for longer range.
The high power version was issued to navy boats also.
This one was sued to fire back at snipers.
In one minute it could dump the equivalent of 300 lbs of explosive to 2km range!!!!
No more sniper shooting at platoons.

Along the way they standardized on two models 40x 46mm low power and 40x53mm high power

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/40_mm_grenade


You have the nub of it. This kind of methodical study needs to be done for our casualties. Instead we rush out and buy what other forces do, and that too piecemeal in limited amounts.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby darshhan » 10 Sep 2019 14:06

Karan M wrote:All this is very lab and management driven, and also a consistent issue in India.

Forget public sector, I have far worse horror stories about the private sector in India. All that is driven by top management.

DRDO now has several labs which have been delivering consistently. Some which have been hidden away from the limelight and been struggling for a while. ADE is one of those, its Nirbhay, Rustom programs are its effort to get back into the limelight. Lets see..



This is the most open secret out there today. Private sector in India is far more corrupt than public sector. Graveyard of the companies especially in last ten years or so is littered with private sector firms which have been gutted because of their employees' greed. Especially those in top positions. Plus except companies like L&T, Bharat forge, Tatas most of the other companies are purely driven by rent seeking behaviour.That is one of the reasons that I find it laughable when out of naivety people suggest that this or that should be privatized. How many private companies in India even have that kind of capital or capability anymore? If anything govt role is going to expand wrt strategic programs.

What people do not realise that private sector doesn't have some secret potion by default which will ensure performance. The main ingredient always is people with requisite integrity and competence both. This is something that India lacks i.e in quantity.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Sanju » 10 Sep 2019 14:43

Darshhan ji, it isn't that we lack integrity & competence. It just isn't as rewarding in our system.

Speaking as an observer of a large organisation, with some knowledge of its inner workings. I am appalled at the way that some of the office bearers in high places treat their juniors.

The people in senior positions reward those who are petty and openly so...i guess birds of the same feather flock together.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby csaurabh » 10 Sep 2019 19:54

Brain drain is both the cause and effect of having poor quality people in high positions.
The main problem with brain drain now is that the next generation of R&D engineers/scientists who do choose to stay in the country often don't have any kind of role model to look up to. Not only that the seniors have no real knowledge to pass down ( being incompetent themselves ) , they are often threatened by juniors who acquire the knowledge using the internet and hard work. This creates an extremely problematic scenario. Worst is when the senior people pass off the work of their subordinates as their own and claim all credit.
This from my current scenario and oftentimes I wonder if I made the wrong choice in staying back in the country.
The only saving grace is the 1% who are genuinely nationalistic, technocratic Abdul Kalam types. Whole science and tech. ecosystem in India is held together by such people only. I am lucky to know some of them.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby SaiK » 10 Sep 2019 21:55

It is okay.. Let's only discuss about those 1% genuine nationalistic and their success. Rest 99% are horror anyway, and goes OT quite often unless it is all about feedbacks for handling failures.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Prasad » 10 Sep 2019 22:08

It is a national level issue. Of not being able to provide world-class post-grad, phd & post-doc programs for the top students in this country. Take a look at this paper for instance, on IIT JEE Rank 1 students in the past 40 years https://www.currentscience.ac.in/Volume ... 6/1017.pdf 30 of them have gone abroad for MS/PhD, nearly all never to return. Extended to entire batches that is a massive drain. Even on this forum, how many have returned?

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Vayutuvan » 10 Sep 2019 22:16

Saurabh wrote:This from my current scenario and oftentimes I wonder if I made the wrong choice in staying back in the country. The only saving grace is the 1% who are genuinely nationalistic, technocratic Abdul Kalam types. Whole science and tech. ecosystem in India is held together by such people only. I am lucky to know some of them.


No, you didn't. There are actually no right or wrong choices when it comes to following your passion. The situation in the US even in Academia, leave alone the national labs, is similar. There are some very well known cases of famous professors fobbing off students' work as their own.

The only difference is that US has a lot of money to throw around coupled with public infra which affords one, even at $100K salary, a comfortable friction-free lifestyle.
Last edited by Vayutuvan on 11 Sep 2019 00:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Vayutuvan » 10 Sep 2019 22:25

Prasad wrote:It is a national level issue. Of not being able to provide world-class post-grad, phd & post-doc programs for the top students in this country. Take a look at this paper for instance, on IIT JEE Rank 1 students in the past 40 years https://www.currentscience.ac.in/Volume ... 6/1017.pdf 30 of them have gone abroad for MS/PhD, nearly all never to return. Extended to entire batches that is a massive drain. Even on this forum, how many have returned?


Are there stats for IIT toppers in their respective majors? JEE topper may not be the topper in their batch. Topping BTech (say 9.5-10 GPA) is better metric since that shows consistency - not just toping one exam.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Vayutuvan » 10 Sep 2019 23:26

Saral (or admins), please edit the two posts you forwarded.

there are enough details in both the posts that I was able to narrow it down to a handful of companies, just from memory. If I do a casual google, V's identity would be known.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 11 Sep 2019 00:12

Guys focus back on the topic please, any new projects etc. This discussion while topical ends up in the usual generic complaints etc. Things by no means are perfect but nor are they bleak either. Science in India is fairly renumerative and many do pursue their careers in India now.


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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Indranil » 12 Sep 2019 03:09

Indian SME beats global firms to offer command system to Malaysian warships
By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 11th Sept 19

On Monday, the Royal Malaysian Navy (RMN) cleared a combat management system (CMS) that a small, but cutting-edge, Indian electronics company has developed for two of its frontline warships – the British-origin RMN frigates, KD Leiku and KD Jebat.

A warship’s CMS is the brain of its combat capability. The CMS continuously interacts with all the ship’s sensors and weapons – including radar, sonar, missiles, rockets and torpedoes – and assesses the threats that they detect. Then, the CMS suggests weapons to neutralise the threat; and it fires and controls those weapons.

In addition, the sophisticated CMS software collaborates with friendly warships’ command systems over a real time datalink. This develops a “common operating picture” for fleet operations.

Validating the truism that high-technology is mostly developed by micro, small and medium enterprises (SMEs), C2C DB Systems is the only Indian firm that has developed a complete CMS, including tactical datalink capability and warfighting modules (which navies guard zealously).

For example, the Indian Navy’s warfighting modules are developed secretly by an in-house department called the Weapon and Electronics Engineering Establishment (WESEE). The CMS’ supporting modules are developed by companies like Bharat Electronics Ltd and Tata Power (Strategic Engineering Division).

C2C DB Systems is based in Bengaluru and has a total strength of 50, including senior management, hardware and software engineers and mechanical design engineers. Its annual turnover is around Rs 25 crore.

Yet, this small firm partnered with a Malaysian firm, Marine Crest Technologies, to wrest the tightly contested RMN contract from global competitors such as Thales of France, Saab of Sweden and UK-headquartered BAE Systems.


RMN placed the order for the two CMSs and tactical datalink systems in April 2018, stipulating a delivery period of just nine months for the first system. Typically, developing a similar system in India takes about two years.

With C2C DB demonstrating the complete functionality of the CMS and datalink during “factory acceptance trials” in January 2019, and the system shipped to Malaysia the next month, C2C DB Systems became the only Indian entity to have developed a complete CMS, along with a tactical datalink. It is also the only Indian entity to have exported such a system.

The complete system was installed on board the first RMN frigate in March, after being fully integrated with the warship’s weapons and sensors. “Harbour acceptance trials” of the tactical datalink were unconditionally cleared on Monday, while CMS trials are under way. Next will come “sea acceptance trials” at the end of this month.

C2C DB Systems is tightly integrated into India’s warship production eco-system. It has worked with WESEE to develop the complete front-end software for the CMS of India’s first indigenous aircraft carrier, INS Vikrant. It has also done classified work for the nuclear missile submarine, INS Arihant.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby JayS » 12 Sep 2019 16:45

Was looking for something and found this - A Presentation by VEM technologies on Electro-Optical systems. Some specs are there on stuff they are working on. it includes Dual Band (Visible + MWIR) Seeker.

http://ficci.in/events/22716/ISP/3Ikbal-Singh.pdf

They are also working on RF seeker with DRDO, which is a classified project. But based on technology infusion from DRDO in IIR and RF seeker tech they have gone on to develop own versions which are compact and lighter.


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