Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

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Kakarat
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 29 May 2019 18:01

Any news on the follow-on order of Aerostat after the first 2?

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby chola » 30 May 2019 16:02

Karan M wrote:
chola wrote:
Three Netras on some imported Embraers is not simply enough. We need a domestic platform for our electronics gear and not just for AEW but SIGINT, ASW, MPA, propaganda work, etc. too.

Depending on imported gear for numbers is hopeless, IMO.


The C-295 will be supposedly used to hoist around an X-Band AESA for the IN/CG requirement of a surveillance platform.

At least we get an airborne X-Band radar into play (back up to Uttam) and more X-band TRM modules in production.

I hope, hope, hope the C-295 saga comes to fruition.

I wish we could make a play for the AN-132 now that the Saudis have left as partners for the project. We have leverage as the Ukrainians are starved of cash.
https://www.janes.com/article/88169/an-132d-programme-stalls

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Raghunathgb » 11 Sep 2019 20:01

Second Netra handed over to IAF.

https://twitter.com/ANI/status/11717641 ... 97/photo/1 ---> Punjab: Defence Research & Development Organisation today handed over the second indigenous ‘Netra’ Airborne Early Warning & Control aircraft to the Indian Air Force. The Western Air Command Chief, Air Marshal R Nambiar accepted the planes at the acceptance ceremony at Bathinda air base.

Image

Image

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 11 Sep 2019 21:21

https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/1171767345208942594 ---> Today DRDO handed over the second Netra AEW&C system to the IAF at an acceptance ceremony at Bathinda base. Work done by;

LRDE - Prim radar
DEAL - Comms Systems n Data Link
DARE - Self Protection suite, Electronic Support EW
DLRL - Comm Support Measures
CABS - IFF & Mnagmnt

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 11 Sep 2019 23:20

Great news! Can't help but wonder - what if we had ordered 6 - 9 more of these beauties that demonstrated their worth during Balakot & the day after?

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Kartik » 11 Sep 2019 23:28

I guess everyone on BRF will feel this way. Cannot understand the IAF's logic. Why not order more of the Netra AEW&C, rather than wait it out for more expensive but more capable Phalcons? Even an order for 4-5 more would justify the costs incurred already, and give the IAF the ability to have 1 Netra on station nearly all the time. And it has proven its worth already during Op Balakot, so whatever doubts the IAF top brass would've had over its capabilities being an indigenous system would've been cleared up.

Anyway, I hope that DRDO hands over the third Netra as well, rather than keeping it with themselves as a testbed for future AWACS features and capabilities. IAF's operational needs are pressing.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 11 Sep 2019 23:33

Indeed. Its a criminal waste of money and R&D. Like building an entire assembly line, but shutting it down after manufacturing 3 cars!

Meanwhile, we can find billions of $$ for imports. A CCS meeting will most likely finalize an order for 10 P-8Is, in addition to the previous order for 12.

However, when it comes to Indian MIC, "piecemeal" is the mantra.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 11 Sep 2019 23:55

It is navy that is doing the right thing! We need those P8I and perhaps some method of tracking vagrant fishing boats via HALE Drone (Predator C or BAMS) without tasking a whole set of 21 people.

Coming back to AEW. If we can't get EMB145s, lets find comparable platform and get another 10 of those. G550 special missions platform and call it a day. Stick the Radar as conformal array. Gulfstream has done many of those mods! It has range, payload and we already operate a few of this type. If we want to continue it outside, SAAB has modified the Bombardier platform similarly for external carriage. The Bombardier 7500 presents lots of working space and has more range than the EMB145s.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Avinandan » 12 Sep 2019 00:03

Kartik wrote:Anyway, I hope that DRDO hands over the third Netra as well, rather than keeping it with themselves as a testbed for future AWACS features and capabilities. IAF's operational needs are pressing.


Can they salvage Avros (with some upgrades that HAL is proposing now) for a testbed ( or possibly a Netra - -) by adding the radar on top of it or the experience of flying chapati stills haunts us ?

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 12 Sep 2019 00:12

History will not be kind to Indian Armed forces and their ad hoc, corrupt procurement practices. The list is building up - Marut, Arjun, Netra. Hopefully LCA can be successful to reverse the opinion of domestic built weaponry. IAF should have ordered 15-20 of these beauties - but then they wanted to keep their kitty for the real toys they lust for - the Rafales.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 12 Sep 2019 00:13

Check out this report: https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/2-awacs-air-to-air-missiles-on-agenda-for-netanyahu-visit/story-kzJ9Cf5NUtdD0BYyZmVo9M.html

While India has five AWACS platforms, Pakistan already has seven such with another three on order from China. Islamabad already has three SAAB Erieye and four ZDK-03 from China, which were deployed 24X7 after the Balakot air strike by the Indian Air Force on a terrorist facility in Pakistan. Given this differential, IAF deployed AWACS for only 12 hours a day.


If my math is not wrong, India has only 4 AWACS platforms (3 Phalcon + 1 AWE&C), not 5. Pakis have more AWACS birds than us & more on the way! Even given that Phalcons are superior to the Erieyes, this is an area where India must have overmatch vis-a-vis Pakistan. Instead we are struggling to catch up. And yet the IAF steadfastly refuses to order more AWE&C that proved themselves already. Now, imagine a 2-front war!

Where are the IAF strategic thinkers? If the highlighted part is true, this is truly shameful!

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Sumeet » 12 Sep 2019 00:54

If they are not buying more are they giving some feedback as to what needs to be improved for a block 2 version of Netra ?

This is extremely disappointing for scientist who have put in a lot of effort in developing this. This type of attitude will also discourage private sector in getting involved in air force projects. Very sad.

We should see if IN will be interested in getting few onboard their aircraft carriers or shore based force. They are much better when it comes to supporting indigenization.

Given our big border we need 20+ AWACS (8+ Phalcons & 12+ Netra). Our scientist deserve operational feedback to build upon existing Netra AWACS.

There are occasions I wish appropriate journalists should sit and grill these officials in public causing some embarrassment and raising awareness.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 12 Sep 2019 01:36

Unfortunately, any attempt to point this differential out will be met by denial and the belief that the IAF, GOI, etc are all playing 6D chess.

The facts are that if the AEW&CS even matches the freaking Erieye, we should be buying more of them. The rough thumbrule, not including reserves is that you need 3 aircraft for any sector. Any sector as in what happened on the day of Feb 27th.

So, one aircraft is in flight on route to the area, another is on service, another is on the ground in service. Another in deep service if things go wrong (hence the reserve).

On the day of Balakote, IAF would hence have managed because GBAD radars linked by IACCS were ok for defensive purposes.

The problem worsens manifold if you attack into Pakistan. The average fighter can scan only 70 odd degrees in azimuth and around that in elevation. Hence it needs radar support if it wants to avoid ambushes (you can run a wall and datalink the fighters together, but even then you will have limitations). The PAF's defensive strategy is to use AWACS to:

1. Vector fighters onto IAF strike packages where they are weakest (ambush from flanks/below with BVR missiles f.e.)
2. Use AWACs as long range eyes in the sky & hence avoid the need to maintain expensive CAPs 24/7 (not perfect as IAF can use terrain masking in specific sectors as during Balakote)

Overall, for an offensive AF, current number of AWACs is abysmal. The only thing going OK is that because of the planned number of SAM inductions and additional radars, we have alternatives to AWACS w/in India. But going *into* Pakistan is an expensive proposition.

How can the IAF combat this:

1. Target AWACs with Meteor & S-400 to push them back (problem, we dont have infinite numbers of either munition)
2. Try and take out AWACS on the ground

Problem in a short border war scenario, where ROE prevent IAF from taking out AWACS 100 km deep inside Pakistan, is that they have the edge if we can't get GBAD coverage.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 12 Sep 2019 01:48

One of the key methods to get low-level coverage into Pakistan was to buy aerostat radars. For whatever stupid reason, even that has not progressed. We purchased two and due to officer negligence etc (CAG) one of the 2 was damaged beyond repair. The plan was then to buy 6, 8, 9 (different reports) more. Didn't go anywhere.

Then the ask was for 2 more Phalcons, allowing us to maintain 24 hr ops for a 400 km radius, hasn't gone anywhere. The DRDO-Embraer AEW&CS, derailed by corruption allegations over Embraer. The MOD can take a stand and ask for a temporary reprieve to Embraer under national interest. Hasn't happened.

Net, we can well have good medium-high alt coverage even into Pak., but low level coverage would be lacking as would be in areas where terrain comes in the way, and hence an accompanying AWACS would be ideal.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 12 Sep 2019 02:11

Wasn't the israeli prime minister coming over to sign the two phalcon deal?

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 12 Sep 2019 02:15

Karan M wrote:One of the key methods to get low-level coverage into Pakistan was to buy aerostat radars. For whatever stupid reason, even that has not progressed. We purchased two and due to officer negligence etc (CAG) one of the 2 was damaged beyond repair. The plan was then to buy 6, 8, 9 (different reports) more. Didn't go anywhere.

Then the ask was for 2 more Phalcons, allowing us to maintain 24 hr ops for a 400 km radius, hasn't gone anywhere. The DRDO-Embraer AEW&CS, derailed by corruption allegations over Embraer. The MOD can take a stand and ask for a temporary reprieve to Embraer under national interest. Hasn't happened.

Net, we can well have good medium-high alt coverage even into Pak., but low level coverage would be lacking as would be in areas where terrain comes in the way, and hence an accompanying AWACS would be ideal.

The problem in this case is the same as in every other Defence procurement disaster in India. There is absolutely no one in the MoD who has even a fraction of the understanding of these issues which you have pointed out. Ideally there should be domain experts from all the services (retired and serving) who work in MoD full time on defence procurement challenges, current deficits in capability vis a vis our opponents and future needs to come up with comprehensive procurement strategies alongside each service. They need to be created based on proper prioritization of systems and an honest assessment of our financial capability to procure them. And there needs to be someone with the absolute authority to execute this. Instead we have an MoD which runs like a bunch of headless chickens. I have no hope of this situation improving anytime soon.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 12 Sep 2019 02:16

@Cybaru,
Yeah, they might keep it for him.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 12 Sep 2019 02:33

nachiket wrote:
Karan M wrote:One of the key methods to get low-level coverage into Pakistan was to buy aerostat radars. For whatever stupid reason, even that has not progressed. We purchased two and due to officer negligence etc (CAG) one of the 2 was damaged beyond repair. The plan was then to buy 6, 8, 9 (different reports) more. Didn't go anywhere.

Then the ask was for 2 more Phalcons, allowing us to maintain 24 hr ops for a 400 km radius, hasn't gone anywhere. The DRDO-Embraer AEW&CS, derailed by corruption allegations over Embraer. The MOD can take a stand and ask for a temporary reprieve to Embraer under national interest. Hasn't happened.

Net, we can well have good medium-high alt coverage even into Pak., but low level coverage would be lacking as would be in areas where terrain comes in the way, and hence an accompanying AWACS would be ideal.

The problem in this case is the same as in every other Defence procurement disaster in India. There is absolutely no one in the MoD who has even a fraction of the understanding of these issues which you have pointed out. Ideally there should be domain experts from all the services (retired and serving) who work in MoD full time on defence procurement challenges, current deficits in capability vis a vis our opponents and future needs to come up with comprehensive procurement strategies alongside each service. They need to be created based on proper prioritization of systems and an honest assessment of our financial capability to procure them. And there needs to be someone with the absolute authority to execute this. Instead we have an MoD which runs like a bunch of headless chickens. I have no hope of this situation improving anytime soon.


MOD is a part of the problem. Also, a problem is the lack of back-up planning in the services, and the tendency to prioritize big-ticket programs without looking at the business side of things or more cost-effective ways to achieve the same result. They keep pushing the same old file which has been stuck for cost, and then expect things to change. Why would it?

PAF with JF-17 is a perfect example.

China could not make a workable engine. Pakistan had China rope in the Russians with their RD-33. India let it be. Did we even try to sabotage it? Did IAF ask Foreign Min/GOI to do something vis a vis our massive Su-30 purchases? Who knows.

Then the Chinese avionics etc turned out to be a half-way house. Pakistan promptly starts working with France for a full kit - French avionics, EW, missiles to equip the fighters with.

India sabotaged this one at least, with the M2K Upgrade and Scorpene orders.

Did Pak give up? No, they took what was available - the PRC radar and missile and went to Indra for the RWR & EW (clearly the Chinese RWR on their MIrages was not a great experience).

In between, they upgraded their Mirages to ROSE1/2 standards, with zero fuss. Built up a core of "gold plated" F-16s.

And doubled down on the JF-17. No negative press. Always positive. Contrast and compare to IAF w/LCA.

And on Feb 27th, it was they who swarmed us with these aircraft too crap for the IAF, whereas we only had 4 in the air. Numbers do matter.

It has taken 3 years - yes 3 years, 2016 to 2019, for the 2nd tranche of LCA orders to be placed. And the IAF is yet to even specify the SPJ to be added to the 40 MK1 LCA in service. Which babu is that to be blamed on? ADA has not even been told. What is the IAF waiting for? What if these aircraft have to be sent into harms way as the Bison were?

We tend to look very +vely at the acquisitions by IAF which seem to have worked out and ignore the rest.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 12 Sep 2019 02:44

Karan, in Pakistan, the defence services are the decision makers, unlike in India. There is nobody to overrule them or tell them we can't afford what you want, or that you can't just buy something without going through a process or the manufacturer you are looking for has been blacklisted. There is a lot you can get done when your hands aren't tied in that manner.

For example, as I have said repeatedly, the MMRCA fiasco would have never happened if the govt. of the day had agreed to buy M2k's when the IAF wanted them and Abhi wouldn't have been fighting F-16's in a Mig-21.

Having said that, there is still plenty that the IAF can learn from the PAF. Their handling of the JF-17 primarily, as you have also mentioned. The PAF basically handled the JF-17 just like hpw every other country handles indigenous aircraft projects, even though the JF-17 was hardly indigenous for them. But they recognized the value of having something which you have a lot of control over and can build within the country. They did not wait till the final version which has every capability asked for working was available to even start procurement, knowing that incremental upgrades would arrive. This is no different than how other projects from the EF Typhoon and Rafale to the F-35 are handled by their own Air Forces. The IAF never understood this until very late in the LCA program. They were too busy belittling the product (3-legged cheetah) till better men took over.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby srai » 12 Sep 2019 03:12

In the interim, get those 2 Phalcons (total 5 IAF) and 3 Netras (total 5 IAF + 1 DRDO). Allows for coverage of two areas 250-400km radius continuously. Use Phalcons for defensive role while Netras for offensive support.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 12 Sep 2019 03:49

Let's face it, if IAF wanted more AWACS, it would have made enough noise.the news report about pak awacs coverage is a perfect example.

The reality is IAF blocked every other purchase for one and only one purchase. 124 Rafale. As simple as that.

It could have pushed for the A330 project. It hadn't bother to lift a finger so far, and wants only phalcon on a very ill suited platform.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Nikhil T » 12 Sep 2019 04:17

srai wrote:In the interim, get those 2 Phalcons (total 5 IAF) and 3 Netras (total 5 IAF + 1 DRDO). Allows for coverage of two areas 250-400km radius continuously. Use Phalcons for defensive role while Netras for offensive support.


No, I would say get more Netras. The Phalcons are super expensive - in 2004, it costed $350 million per radar and another $150 million for each plane. Discounting for one time development costs and accounting for 15 years of inflation, we'd should expect to pay ~$1.5-2 billion per plane now. For that price, we could probably buy two or three for the cost of one Phalcon. Maybe even more.

I'd say resurrect the relationship with Embraer and churn out 6 more birds, at which point the AWACS India project should start delivering.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 12 Sep 2019 04:25

nachiket wrote:Karan, in Pakistan, the defence services are the decision makers, unlike in India. There is nobody to overrule them or tell them we can't afford what you want, or that you can't just buy something without going through a process or the manufacturer you are looking for has been blacklisted. There is a lot you can get done when your hands aren't tied in that manner.


DPP + single vendor clause = Disarmament Procurement Procedure. Whosoever inserted that clause, for whatever reason, has almost unilaterally crippled Indian acquisition. To bypass it, you need a waiver from RM. Which any wary politician, like St Antony, who observed what happened to George F post the steel casket issue, would not agree to. Zimble.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Sumeet » 12 Sep 2019 04:28

Karan M wrote:
nachiket wrote:Karan, in Pakistan, the defence services are the decision makers, unlike in India. There is nobody to overrule them or tell them we can't afford what you want, or that you can't just buy something without going through a process or the manufacturer you are looking for has been blacklisted. There is a lot you can get done when your hands aren't tied in that manner.


DPP + single vendor clause = Disarmament Procurement Procedure.



Is it because of this we will have to do MMRCA 2.0 nautanki instead of straight orders of more Rafale ?

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 12 Sep 2019 04:32

Yes, looks like.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 12 Sep 2019 04:53

If the C295 deal really goes through, then that becomes another platform we can standardize on.

3 Netras + 5 phalcons (Jet based) + 8-10 C-295s. It might be easier for IAF to order this type if the deal gets signed.

Plus it will be 360 degree platform vs the 240 degree one. It fits 6 operators easily with another relief crew in it.

Not the most ideal platform, but given we will have 8 jet based platform, it might be ok to have these and it will have lower operating costs as well. Nothing like Aerostats for 24/7 operations though.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 12 Sep 2019 09:35

Where there is a will, there is a way. Like how Modi said "screw the MRCA logjam" and completed a G2G deal for Rafale. A few Rafales today is better than 126 Rafales that will never come! Same thing can be done by ordering 10 more Netras. Him/Rajnath can be open about why they are doing it (national interest & dwindling force-multipliers vis-a-vis Pakistan).

But for that, the IAF needs to play ball (or made to play ball). In the case of Rafale, the IAF had created enough pressure in the form of multiple media reports about "dwindling squadrons" (which is true), which made Modi's job easy. In the case of Netra, the IAF is eyeing a large AWACS that will come a decade from now, while being ill-prepared for a war that will come tomorrow.

Isn't there always the "we will fight with what we have" piety?

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 12 Sep 2019 09:45

I do think IAF has the two phalcons in sight. With that they are comfortable. I presume they will worry about remaining things when those get delivered. Having 5 AWACS and 3 AEW units is pretty decent.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby VikramA » 12 Sep 2019 10:20

From my understanding the IAF wanted the phalcon not because it was some super duper AWAC and netra is not, but because phalcon being mounted on il76 has the space to operate for 12 hours because of 2 set of crews which netra cannot because of lack of space. It's not a question of import vs desi but question of platform. After the first netra, DRDO should have concentrated on mounting the Aesa radar on a wide body jet in a timely manner

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby srin » 12 Sep 2019 10:48

We have discussed this before.
I have been a great fan of getting more Netras. But it is a futile hope.
There were corruption allegations and some CAG report. It is a dead end unfortunately.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 12 Sep 2019 11:09

VikramA wrote:After the first netra, DRDO should have concentrated on mounting the Aesa radar on a wide body jet in a timely manner


Oh! That's right! Mount it on an imaginary A330! Cool beans! :rotfl:

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby VikramA » 12 Sep 2019 11:27

Cybaru wrote:
VikramA wrote:After the first netra, DRDO should have concentrated on mounting the Aesa radar on a wide body jet in a timely manner


Oh! That's right! Mount it on an imaginary A330! Cool beans! :rotfl:


Are we to believe that drdo + hal cannot buy or lease a single second hand wide body jet for technology demonstration.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 12 Sep 2019 11:35

VikramA wrote:
Cybaru wrote:
Oh! That's right! Mount it on an imaginary A330! Cool beans! :rotfl:


Are we to believe that drdo + hal cannot buy or lease a single second hand wide body jet for technology demonstration.


It is not their duty to buy sundry platforms. What if the user changes his mind on the platform. The platform is always chosen by the user given it's use-cases. One doesn't just go about willy-nilly fitting stuff to whatever they feel like. Anyhoo - Netra is already mounted, scaling is less of an issue. The problem isn't DRDOs to solve. when IAF gives clear mandate, next steps happen.

Hal has nothing to do with this. Not sure how it came into the mix.

IAF changes it's mind all the time, look at the 100 perdator C purchase. US government clears it, now it no wants it! boo hoo.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Yagnasri » 12 Sep 2019 12:13

VikramA wrote:From my understanding the IAF wanted the phalcon not because it was some super duper AWAC and netra is not, but because phalcon being mounted on il76 has the space to operate for 12 hours because of 2 set of crews which netra cannot because of lack of space. It's not a question of import vs desi but question of platform. After the first netra, DRDO should have concentrated on mounting the Aesa radar on a wide body jet in a timely manner



Ideally yes. But we are not there yet. We can develop all that if we start now in a decade or so. Our requirements today will not be addressed with that. So unfortunately we need to make do with what we can do. Netra is here and can be ordered for more units if the waiver is given. Better to give waiver and get on with it in a Government to Government deal. I am sure the other side will be ok with it. Investigation can continue or earlier wrong doings.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 12 Sep 2019 12:52

VikramA wrote:
Cybaru wrote:
Oh! That's right! Mount it on an imaginary A330! Cool beans! :rotfl:


Are we to believe that drdo + hal cannot buy or lease a single second hand wide body jet for technology demonstration.


Yes. Facts are not a matter of belief.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 12 Sep 2019 13:26

Vivek K wrote:History will not be kind to Indian Armed forces and their ad hoc, corrupt procurement practices. The list is building up - Marut, Arjun, Netra. Hopefully LCA can be successful to reverse the opinion of domestic built weaponry. IAF should have ordered 15-20 of these beauties - but then they wanted to keep their kitty for the real toys they lust for - the Rafales.


Services need to learn a lesson on probity, honesty and patriotism from you.

You should drop a message to Modi on Twitter saying that all procurement (that you don't approve of) by Services is corrupt. And that you - being the ultimate patriot that you're - are offering your services to audit all such shady deals.

Do it quick.

Don't waste any time or the Services, using their corrupt practices, might import some other stuff they lust after.

VikramA
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby VikramA » 12 Sep 2019 14:01

A more optimal use of netra would be for drdo to convert it to a dedicated EW platform like the Israel have done to the G550 Shavit ELINT platform

Vidur
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Vidur » 12 Sep 2019 14:01

nachiket wrote:Karan, in Pakistan, the defence services are the decision makers, unlike in India. There is nobody to overrule them or tell them we can't afford what you want, or that you can't just buy something without going through a process or the manufacturer you are looking for has been blacklisted. There is a lot you can get done when your hands aren't tied in that manner.



I agree. The other problem is lack of credibility of many DPSUs and Ordnance Factories. As I have mentioned before there have been years when 20-25% of all ammunition made by OFB was faulty. We have suffered many casualties over the years due to this but it is kept quiet as it is very bad for morale. Troops cannot loose confidence in their weapons.

There were some serious problems this year as well and situations developed when troops refused to fire their guns and equipment. This is why reform of OFB is a priority, but even small steps at reform are opposed by officers federations and workers unions.
Last edited by Vidur on 12 Sep 2019 14:05, edited 1 time in total.

Vidur
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Vidur » 12 Sep 2019 14:02

rohitvats wrote:
Vivek K wrote:History will not be kind to Indian Armed forces and their ad hoc, corrupt procurement practices. The list is building up - Marut, Arjun, Netra. Hopefully LCA can be successful to reverse the opinion of domestic built weaponry. IAF should have ordered 15-20 of these beauties - but then they wanted to keep their kitty for the real toys they lust for - the Rafales.


Services need to learn a lesson on probity, honesty and patriotism from you.

You should drop a message to Modi on Twitter saying that all procurement (that you don't approve of) by Services is corrupt. And that you - being the ultimate patriot that you're - are offering your services to audit all such shady deals.

Do it quick.

Don't waste any time or the Services, using their corrupt practices, might import some other stuff they lust after.


This gentleman Vivek should be made Raksha Mantri with all dispatch. :)

rohitvats
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 12 Sep 2019 14:12

I've two official books covering the history of PAF. One covers a period between 1988-1998 and other from 1999-2013.

Apart from the information about the PAF, it gives you an insight into the workings of PAF and their position vis-a-vis civilian government. The JF-17 program was started because they needed replacement for F-7 and Mirage-III/V in the future. It was basis an offer made by the Chinese to PAF Chief! And not their government.

It was PAF which decided on the offer, and when the program grew from initial exploratory phase to full fledged engagement, it need proper inter-governmental agreements. PAF went to Pakistan Government and told them to do the needful. And it was done. From top to bottom, the program was helmed and staffed by PAF people.

PAF decided on the funding, the timeline, and all engagements required with the Chinese. Pakistan Government was told what needs to be done from their end to facilitate the program.


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