Indian Naval Aviation

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Philip
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Philip » 06 Sep 2019 19:30

Send the natives shivering! This is a classic " my d*ck is bigger than yours" syndrome! The enormous cost of a large CV and her accompanying escorts plus aviation assets is beyond India's defence budget.Read Forbes for the latest goods on the Ford CV, with a multitudd of problems, EMALS, arrestor wires, ammo lifts that won't work, etc., etc.The RN's QE-2 65K CVs aren't any better with their plagues too.Operating highly sophisticated super carriers ( and subs) carrying significant technological risk is hurting even the world's most poweful navy. PLAN CBGs ingressing into the IOR will face huge attacks from a cocktail of IN assets INCLUDING our own med.sized CVs with their aircraft carrying BMos- NG.Surface combatants will carry 800km BMos- ERs and BMos-H too when developed. We can field dozens of land- based MKIs , Rafales and perhaps SU-57s apart from whatever carrier aviation we also possess. A network of sats will provide real- time data of enemy CBGs.for our platforms equipped with anti- carrier weaponry.

In the Falkland War, Argentinian German U-boats made torpedo attacks against RN flat tops, but faulty torpedo settings saved the day for the CVs.Swedish conv. boats have repeatedly " sunk" USN carriers in exercises.A Chinese Kilo surprised a USN CV and many years ago so did one of our Kilos do the same. The submarine will if in adequate number, likely prevail over the carrier given current peacetime experience .

The big Q must be asked, whom do we want to scare? We aren't big brother Sam or Soon! In any case the Chins are so arrogant, like their bum chums the Pakis, that nothing we display will scare them until the spear tickles their bunghole.

Let one be very clear; we are not abandoning the carrier.If you read my earlier post, ( apart from a goodly number of subs to deal with enemy subs plus enemy surface groups, what I've advocated is a strategy which will give us 3 med. CVs ( 2 Vikrant class sister ships) , plus 3-4 air- capable 35K t multi-role amphibs/ light carriers.Add to this our ultra- super unsinkable carrier, INS India and also unsinkable INS A&N ,plus base facilities in friendly nations, from where hopefully even Backfires can operate from, we will be in pole position to dominate and control the IOR .It is why the RN is toying with the idea ( fat chance!) of basing some its assets in Indian ports!

Our strategy should be to use our subs, especially SSGNs/ SSNs in a forward deployment into the ICS , N-subs on 90 day patrols, where they will be difficult to detect and able to detect and attack ( once the balloon goes up) enemy battle groups attempting to ingress into the IOR.The sinking of just one Chin CV will produce the aforementioned " shivering" in the Great Hall of the People.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby vivek_ahuja » 06 Sep 2019 20:14

Philip wrote:Send the natives shivering! This is a classic " my d*ck is bigger than yours" syndrome!


Philip wrote:We can field dozens of land- based MKIs , Rafales and perhaps SU-57s apart from whatever carrier aviation we also possess. A network of sats will provide real- time data of enemy CBGs. for our platforms equipped with anti- carrier weaponry.


Philip wrote:Our strategy should be to use our subs, especially SSGNs/ SSNs in a forward deployment into the ICS , N-subs on 90 day patrols, where they will be difficult to detect and able to detect and attack ( once the balloon goes up) enemy battle groups attempting to ingress into the IOR.


tsarkar wrote:The counter to aircraft carriers is submarines, which is why Australia ordered a massive 12 silent submarines outnumbering its surface fleet.


tsarkar wrote:Present Navy Chief is from aviation and is making an emotional pitch for his service.


tsarkar wrote:A better option would be investing in more silent DE submarines and conventional missile carrying nuclear submarines.


All of the quotes above are proving my point that on this forum, all we are able to focus on is a shooting war that will never happen. We are talking countermeasures to problems that will never be posed. The Chinese carriers will never enter the IOR for the simple reason that they cannot lose face if even one of their carriers goes underwater.

And all of these countermeasures have the same drawback: you cannot project power in peacetime with submarines underwater and airplanes high in the sky.

You need the naval version of "boots on the ground" to project muscle. If a carrier is too expensive for this, fine! Use large numbers of big destroyers and frigates to do the job. But it needs to:

1. Be visible and wave the flag.
2. Make port calls to friendly countries in force and demonstrate the power (and determination) wielded by New Delhi.
3. Carry out the occasional piracy and counter-terrorism missions and strikes.
4. Show up off the coast any time a country starts making ugly noises about India.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Rakesh » 07 Sep 2019 03:53

Cain Marko wrote:Ahem. I will now conveniently ignore the obverse of that statement Saar. But yes, this is bread and butter stuff as are the naval helos and minesweepers. I would even put additional subs, preferably stretched scorpion class or smx ocean French design, in tier 2. The whole super carrier hoopla is much lower on my totem pole, I'd prefer to see fast bombers before that.

But if it must be done and the Navy in its infinite wisdom, demands more carriers (afterall the CNSs statement has to count for something), I'm not averse to a US lend lease at all. Possibly even more than a follow on Vikrant class.

Why? Because the latter simply won't do to bring any pressure on the Chinese. A US size carrier will carry more than twice the firepower and will outmatch anything the Chinese have planned. The shornet also if most likely to for on the current carriers.

See Cain-ji, there is one thing that everyone has to agree on - the money pot is finite. So aircraft carrier, submarines (SSK, SSN and SSBN), ASW helos, minesweepers, carrier borne fighters, destroyers, frigates, maritime patrol aircraft, UAVs, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc......all have to come from this one finite money pot. That finite money pot is also shared by the Army and the Air Force and their own list of never ending requirements. And then there are the other ministries in the GOI that also share from that finite money pot.

The other fact is that out of all the three services, the Navy gets the least. And that has largely been true since Independence. Out of the meagre piece of money pie the Navy gets, that service has to further cut that pie into even more smaller slices. Naval pensions, salaries, OPEX of current equipment, naval exercises (Malabar, TROPEX, etc) all come out of that pie. The pittance that is left is used for purchasing new equipment. As I explained in this very thread in the posts above and in the previous page, what the Navy envisions is not what the MoD envisions.

In the budget wars that occur regularly in the North Block, the Army takes the lion share of the defence budget...followed by the air force and finally the Navy. Unfortunately for the Navy, that is just the way it works. Now one can argue the philosophy of naval power and waste time on that or the Navy can work with what is available, which is what the Navy is doing.

Our Admirals create grandoise plans of 57 carrier borne fighters, 65,000+ ton nuclear powered aircraft carrier with EMALS and so on. That is then posted on BRF - via media - and many in here get wowed and start getting fantasies like influencing events from Alaska to beyond! But when the proposal goes to the MoD, reality hits and it hits HARD. Classic case of my-eyes-are-bigger-than-my-stomach. I have provided numerous links in this thread on this issue. Please do read up on them. The reality is sobering. When plans were publicly announced by the Navy on the Vishal, one would assume this would have passed muster in the MoD! Obviously it did not.

Just last December, then Naval Chief - Admiral Sunil Lanba - said there was no budgetary shortfalls for acquiring the 57 carrier borne fighters. Just few months later, the MoD killed the idea of the Vishal (at least in her Navy avatar). The Navy then went back to the MoD with a smaller vessel. And the MoD killed that idea too. In the absence of the Vishal, where in the totem pole lies the importance for the MoD in acquiring 57 carrier borne fighters?

You mentioned that the CNS' statement has to count for something. Well the reality is the reverse. What the Naval Chief - the previous one and the current one - are saying in public, is what they are saying in private to the MoD. And the MoD simply does not care. There is a disdain for men in uniform by some in the bureaucracy. Folks in here get hurt when posters call the men in the services import pasand. If one has to hear what some of these bureaucrats say about men in uniform, it will make the import pasand statement look like child's play.

The Govt also needs to get out of the economic doldrum that India is in right now. The economic health of India is seriously worrisome and $5 trillion economy by 2025 is a pipe dream. And with scarce resources, it is imperative that the services prioritize what is necessary and what is a wish list. Even Admiral Karambir Singh said that the Navy has to work with the budget it is given. Additional maritime patrol aircraft, UAVs, multirole helicopters, submarines, quicker build time for destroyers and frigates are necessary. White elephant projects like 65,000+ ton aircraft carrier with nuclear power and EMALS are a wish list.

You mentioned bread-and-butter stuff. Well bread-and-butter (i.e. support platforms) is very important for the effective operation of a CBG. And support platforms (ASW helos, destroyers & frigates, submarines, etc) can operate independent of an aircraft carrier. However an aircraft carrier cannot operate independently of her support platforms. Before an American CBG enters a theatre of operation, any threats are analyzed and all the required support platforms are brought along. CBG operations are after all three dimensional - surface, sub surface and air. You do not go riding into the Kentucky Derby, with your prized stallions sitting in the stable.

So let us look at the current state of the Indian Navy's support platforms to sustain effective CBG operations.

Surface Component
It was reported only in July of last year that the Indian Navy will finally get towed array sonars. And this is only for the Kamorta Class corvettes. It is eventually planned to be added to the Shivalik & Talwar Class of frigates and Kolkata and Delhi Class of destroyers. Currently these vessels use bow mounted sonars which are less effective than towed array sonars. I hope and pray that the MoD file on this moves for the other vessels as well. But we all know how the MoD functions.

The four remaining (five in all) Rajput Class destroyers need replacing ASAP. The first among the five was decommissioned in May 2019. Of the three Godavari Class frigates, two have already been decommissioned. The Visakhapatnam Class destroyer and Project 17A Class frigates are still under construction. Delays are 100% guaranteed. Just the state of Indian shipbuilding. And the delays are not in months, more like in YEARS.

While minesweepers do not operate as part of a CBG, they play an essential role in keeping the harbour free of enemy mines. Please ask Google Chacha on the status of the Indian Navy's minesweeper program. As of Sept of last year, the Indian Navy has a grand total of just two aging minesweepers. The minimum requirement is 12 modern vessels.

Air Component
The Indian Navy's ASW helicopters are the Sea King Mk42B and Ka-28. The fleet availability of the Sea King Mk42B is abysmal. The Ka-28 is no better. The Indian Navy has been pleading the MoD for eons to approve the acquisition of 24 Sikorsky MH-60R multi-role helicopters. It was only in April 2019, that the deal finally got passed. Deliveries are still pending. And 24 is the bare minimum. While maritime patrol aircraft and UAVs do not operate as part of a CBG, they play a vital role in gathering intelligence. The Navy has a grand total of 8 modern P-8Is (with 4 more on order) and 10 more in the pipeline. The less said about the IL-38SD the better.

Sub Surface Component
With just one modern boat (INS Kalvari), the Navy is soldiering on with one SSN, 9 Kilos and 4 HDW 209 boats. Multiple refits have been done to the Kilos to keep them up to date. After the Sindhurakshak and Sindhukirti incidents, one young Indian submariner commented this about the Kilo boats ---> Sir, we are sitting on a ticking time bomb. The second Scorpene sub (the Karanj) will reportedly be commissioned by the end of this month. Project 75I has just been launched. Heaven only knows when that contract will be awarded. And then there is the six fleet SSN program, which is not even on the drawing board yet!

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These are just some of the many issues plaguing the Indian Navy's fleet. These issues need to be addressed and ASAP. If left unchecked, then when shit hits the fan (i.e. when the PLAN comes knocking)...the Indian Navy will be holding the short end of the stick. In light of this, it is extremely important to get up to date on the support platforms with the same urgency as the next aircraft carrier. The IN cannot have any meaningful CBG operations, without the above.

The IN either capitalizes on the Vikrant design or wait till the economy gets better. Assuming, we hit a $5 trillion economy by 2025 and lay the keel in 2025 for the bells-and-whistles vessel, she will be ready only by 2040 or later. Find that hard to believe? Well here is a sobering statistic for you. Keel of the Vikrant was laid in Feb 2009. Launched in Aug 2013. She is expected to be completed by 2021 (hopefully!) and commissioned by 2023. Around 15 years later. And this is for a 40,000 ton aircraft carrier.

Now imagine what a new design, 65,000 ton, nuclear power with EMALS will take in an Indian shipyard. And I was being generous with the 15 year time frame from 2025 to 2040. But that is okay no? Because the PLAN will not come attacking till the Vishal is ready. The Chinese play fair that way after all! Now if they capitalize on the Vikrant design, they can get a vessel in the water much quicker than the bells-and-whistles Vishal. If we lay the keel in 2020, she will be ready for service by the early 2030s.

This lend-lease concept is just that...a concept, someone's idea, someone's suggestion. It is not official. I would also like a lend-lease for a squadron or two of F-22s and a couple of B-2 Stealth bombers. But is that going to happen? If lend-lease was such a fabulous idea, then Boeing, the US Navy and the US Govt would have all proposed this to the Indian Navy. After all, interoperability is the buzzword no? The last quagmire the Navy needs to get into is acquiring a 60+ year old aircraft carrier called the Kitty Hawk.

From the link I posted earlier, the USN have been stripping the Kitty Hawk and her sister ship (John F Kennedy) for spares. Who is going to pay to bring this vessel up to date? The US Govt or the Indian Govt? If it is the latter and when an estimated bill is shown to the GOI, do you believe they will gladly cough up the few billions it will cost to pay for this 60 year old hull? Who knows what the final (& actual) bill will be. This will be Gorshkov redux all over again.

By the way, Chinese build capacity is no doubt fabulous. I mean that with all sincerity. Do however look up the state of the PLAN's only carrier borne fighter - the Shenyang J-15. In the absence of a viable carrier borne fighter, what is the point of having multiple carriers? It will take the PLAN around 10 years before they iron out all the issues on the J-15, then formulate an operational syllabus and have effective carrier operations. Despite what the Chinese say, one cannot defeat the laws of time. The Chinese are not super human. They are only human and fallible at that.

What tsarkar said is correct. The counter to aircraft carriers is submarines. There are a host of other platforms that will assist the sub, but the submarine is a very good counter. Below is from an officer in the US Navy during an exercise between a USN carrier and a USN submarine. And when the officer sent this message to his Admiral, a photograph was also sent....of the targeted aircraft carrier in the submarine's periscope.

For RADM [Rear Admiral] J. P. Moorer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_P._Moorer)

I enjoyed your "parochial" speech about carriers, and agreed with your points. Let me counter with a parochial submarine aphorism: "There are two kinds of ships in the world: submarines and targets." Sorry not to have you aboard.

Very respectfully,

Thomas F. Wiener
CDR, USN
C.O., USS Jack (SSN-605) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Jack_(SSN-605)

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Cain Marko » 07 Sep 2019 04:08

Thank you Admiral Saar for the most informative and extensive post. Your time and effort are much appreciated and so is the point you have made.

Rest assured, I understand and agree with the general sentiment about priorities such as mpas, subs etc over and above massive carriers, and have often argued against the idea of a soopah carrier. Especially keeping in mind budgetary issues.

However, I did want to have a discussion about the CNS's statement as well as the press piece regarding the lend lease idea, which I thought might be more practical than actually buying something like QE2.

Ultimately. Keeping in mind the limited budget, it is more than likely Hawa mein teer. Nevertheless I thought the idea and the statement merit some discussion. That all.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Philip » 07 Sep 2019 04:37

Well put Adm.Raks! The dirty phrase in the MOD is " combat capability" of the services. The services should also not ask for the moon while their feet aren't on the ground.Earlier this year an emergency large buy of ammo
was required for us to fight for only a week! As you well put, the IN lacks ASW helos, sonars and minesweepers, apart from keeping our aging subs battleworthy. Mundane and unexciting items like sub batteries, aircraft
spares, and delays all round in aircraft, warship/ subs, MBTs and upgrades, plus assault rifles for the IA, plague the 3 services deeply affecting their combat capability in a crisis.

Fortunately for us our western estranged neighbour is in a spiralling eco. crisis and can't take advantage except for pushing more jihadis across the border.But our eastern enemy outguns us and is geographically in a superior position. If not for its maritime weakness in the IOR defending its oil supplies and the fact that it is already under fire for its island grabbing in the ICS, plus its primary obsession of acquiring Taiwan by any means,we would've had more crises like Doklam.Getting our fundamental " food" for fighting a war and acquiring the most critical equipment plugging gaps in the service, should be the first priority.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Rakesh » 07 Sep 2019 19:22

Cain Marko wrote:However, I did want to have a discussion about the CNS's statement as well as the press piece regarding the lend lease idea, which I thought might be more practical than actually buying something like QE2.

Ultimately. Keeping in mind the limited budget, it is more than likely Hawa mein teer. Nevertheless I thought the idea and the statement merit some discussion. That all.

tsarkar addressed the CNS statement. He is from the aviation branch, so he is going to push the case for an additional aircraft carrier. And since he just became chief, he will continue to push the case for the next three years. Just how the game is played.

I think you are being a bit generous with the press piece on the lend lease idea. It is just one article. Unless an official conversation starts between the two nations, this is just fanciful thinking.

What needs to be discussed is the material state of the Kitty Hawk and John F Kennedy right now. I am not aware, but brar may be able to provide a more clearer answer.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby chetak » 07 Sep 2019 19:28

Rakesh wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:However, I did want to have a discussion about the CNS's statement as well as the press piece regarding the lend lease idea, which I thought might be more practical than actually buying something like QE2.

Ultimately. Keeping in mind the limited budget, it is more than likely Hawa mein teer. Nevertheless I thought the idea and the statement merit some discussion. That all.

tsarkar addressed the CNS statement. He is from the aviation branch, so he is going to push the case for an additional aircraft carrier. And since he just became chief, he will continue to push the case for the next three years. Just how the game is played.

I think you are being a bit generous with the press piece on the lend lease idea. It is just one article. Unless an official conversation starts between the two nations, this is just fanciful thinking.

What needs to be discussed is the material state of the Kitty Hawk and John F Kennedy right now. I am not aware, but brar may be able to provide a more clearer answer.


I don't think that the US will be willing to lease us a carrier.

I could be wrong but have they ever leased military assets after WWII where they did it as a subterfuge to help out the britshits

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Philip » 08 Sep 2019 14:41

Sputnik news reports that the Krylov State Research Centre headed by Pavel Fillipov, has unveiled the concept of a new conventionally powered carrier of 40, 000 tonnes which can carry 40+ fighters and helos, including a naval version of the SU-57 if some modifications to it are made.Construction time only 5 years.
It will be interesting to see the design as the displacement is akin to IAC-1.
If 40+ aircraft/ helos can be carried in this CV costing $3.2 B approx. It is certainly worth taking a dekko as 40 naval air raft anx helos at around $40M apiece ( MIG 29K/ NLCA) will cost just $1,5 to $2,5B with eqpt./ weaponry., etc.

So for under $6 B we would get another carrier ,at less than half the cost of a 65K carrier ( US Ford supercarrier cost without aircraf,e etc. is over $13B) with almost the samd number of aircraft carried.The IN should definitely look at this concept first or a sister ship of the new Vikrant built at record speed with larger lifts for naval aircraft options.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby chola » 09 Sep 2019 13:18

With the F-35B, naval aviation really includes the LHD/A class ships too. Japan, Korea and Turkey are banking in this with their flattops.

These classes are easier to build. (Cheen has built out their Vikrant-sized 40K ton Type 075 from keel to near completion in three months -- compared to four years for their STOBAR.)

Rakesh ji had made a definitive post on on our situation. I agree with the Admiral on our condition. But if it takes us 15 years to build and commission a carrier then it is imperative that the carrier we build be competitive. Only a CATOBAR would justify such effort IMHO. Another STOBAR is not worth unless we can cut the timeline in half.

But if it takes a decade or more for another STOBAR or if budget won't allow a CATOBAR then we must look into what the Koreans and Japanese are doing with their LHD class ships and the F-35B. We need vessels that are easier to build and cost less.

Now a lend lease moth-balled carrier would be mostly "free" and will put the IN in the CATOBAR game. But of course, that could just be nothing more than conjecture at this point.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby chetak » 09 Sep 2019 15:07

Philip wrote:Sputnik news reports that the Krylov State Research Centre headed by Pavel Fillipov, has unveiled the concept of a new conventionally powered carrier of 40, 000 tonnes which can carry 40+ fighters and helos, including a naval version of the SU-57 if some modifications to it are made.Construction time only 5 years.
It will be interesting to see the design as the displacement is akin to IAC-1.
If 40+ aircraft/ helos can be carried in this CV costing $3.2 B approx. It is certainly worth taking a dekko as 40 naval air raft anx helos at around $40M apiece ( MIG 29K/ NLCA) will cost just $1,5 to $2,5B with eqpt./ weaponry., etc.

So for under $6 B we would get another carrier ,at less than half the cost of a 65K carrier ( US Ford supercarrier cost without aircraf,e etc. is over $13B) with almost the samd number of aircraft carried.The IN should definitely look at this concept first or a sister ship of the new Vikrant built at record speed with larger lifts for naval aircraft options.


the same carrier when built in India will double/triple in cost and quadruple in completion time.

Our yards are neither geared for speed nor economy in production.

It figures if you consider the original premise of starting a PSU, it was to provide jobs for the boys, didn't really matter if the "boys" were deaf dumb and blind. Skill development and competence were never factored into any equation.

It created a selectively dedicated and narrow focussed manpower base that depended solely on who was in power at the time.

we should be addressing our low productivity PSU manpower on a priority basis.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby brar_w » 09 Sep 2019 18:54

chola wrote:With the F-35B, naval aviation really includes the LHD/A class ships too. Japan, Korea and Turkey are banking in this with their flattops.

These classes are easier to build. (Cheen has built out their Vikrant-sized 40K ton Type 075 from keel to near completion in three months -- compared to four years for their STOBAR.


I doubt the Turks will get it anytime soon but it appears that the F-35B was a major consideration for the ship they designed. Add to that the Italians (Cavour) who already operate the F-35B (which they locally assemble), and it is a highly likely that Spain ( Juan Carlos) is going to be a operator as well. I also wouldn't be surprised if Singapore considers a naval application for the F-35B (they will probably buy the aircraft to operate from land initially) for the Joint Multi-Mission Ship (Endurance class replacement vessels). Given its production timeline (US orders that will run through the 2030's) I would even consider the Australian navy as a future operator, utilizing it off of the Canberra Class or its replacement vessel. This would have been a far fetched idea just 5 years ago but with Japan now fully committed, and South Korea looking like a strong possibility, Australia could be next since they too have a suitable vessel and could share the modification costs/designs with the Spanish Navy. The F-35B is actually set to be the most popular naval fighter in the world when looked at through operator count..

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Vips » 10 Sep 2019 03:42

brar_w wrote:
chola wrote:With the F-35B, naval aviation really includes the LHD/A class ships too. Japan, Korea and Turkey are banking in this with their flattops.

These classes are easier to build. (Cheen has built out their Vikrant-sized 40K ton Type 075 from keel to near completion in three months -- compared to four years for their STOBAR.


I doubt the Turks will get it anytime soon but it appears that the F-35B was a major consideration for the ship they designed. Add to that the Italians (Cavour) who already operate the F-35B (which they locally assemble), and it is a highly likely that Spain ( Juan Carlos) is going to be a operator as well. I also wouldn't be surprised if Singapore considers a naval application for the F-35B (they will probably buy the aircraft to operate from land initially) for the Joint Multi-Mission Ship (Endurance class replacement vessels). Given its production timeline (US orders that will run through the 2030's) I would even consider the Australian navy as a future operator, utilizing it off of the Canberra Class or its replacement vessel. This would have been a far fetched idea just 5 years ago but with Japan now fully committed, and South Korea looking like a strong possibility, Australia could be next since they too have a suitable vessel and could share the modification costs/designs with the Spanish Navy. The F-35B is actually set to be the most popular naval fighter in the world when looked at through operator count..


More the number of F-35's are produced, the cheaper they get due to economies of scale and hence even more countries would want to buy if for its comparative affordability in relation to the other 4++ and even fifth generation birds. The only limiting factor to its numbers sold abroad will be Uncle Sam's policies. I am surprised they have not yet offered F-35 to India.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby nachiket » 10 Sep 2019 04:37

Why are we still talking about F-35's for the IN after Turkey's experience? We are buying the S-400 too. So no F-35's for us either (not that they were ever actually offered).

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Philip » 10 Sep 2019 19:28

That's why a sister ship to the new Vikrant can be built faster and economically as it would be a repeat order.So if we were thinking of a QE 2 type CV,unaffordable to us,we could even examine the Krylov design and get Ru tech assistance to build it here. However,that would make 3 types of CVs a maintenance nightmare. A sister ship of the Vikrant class is the best bet.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Cybaru » 11 Sep 2019 00:26

Can we start a Indian Naval Aviation - ASW hunters thread only? Post all P8 / MH - 60 R news in there and see it's evolution over the next few years?

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Philip » 11 Sep 2019 16:21

Or a td. on ASW warfare developments including international.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Rakesh » 12 Sep 2019 02:30

THAT BLOODY KAMOV GUY!
https://kaypius.com/2019/09/08/that-bloody-kamov-guy/
09 Sept 2019

By KP Sanjeev Kumar

The KM-31 with its belly-mounted AEW radar is a veritable fulcrum around which the fleet maneuvers at sea. Quietly occupying vanguard 8-10000 feet above MSL, KM-31 crews from IN have honed their skills to a point where fighters scrambling from an enemy airbase are picked up on their takeoff roll. Other specialists then set to work upon the targets.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Manish_P » 12 Sep 2019 11:45

^ what would be the typical ranges Rakesh ji?

While it is surely an awesome asset it can't really match the higher endurance, longer range and stand-off capabilities of dedicated fixed-wing AEW aircraft like the E2C/D.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Philip » 12 Sep 2019 11:54

These are our best AEW assets as of now and obviously effective at their business why another 10 KA-31 are reportedly in the pipeline, obviously for the Vikrant and new surface ships.Even the RN uses a Sea King AEW bird for its CVs which also use a ski- jump for aircraft launch, the helo which has a cumbersome radar module unlike the Kamov's.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Manish_P » 12 Sep 2019 12:41

^ Didn't say that they are not. Like the Tupolev Tu-142M once were, now replaced with the P-8i. With expanding reach (both of self and the opponents) the IN might well require fixed-wing AEWs in the future. The russians do not seem to have an equivalent option (the canceled Yak-44?) to offer.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby chola » 12 Sep 2019 15:17

Manish_P wrote:^ Didn't say that they are not. Like the Tupolev Tu-142M once were, now replaced with the P-8i. With expanding reach (both of self and the opponents) the IN might well require fixed-wing AEWs in the future. The russians do not seem to have an equivalent option (the canceled Yak-44?) to offer.


Yak-44 was abandoned decades ago along with their CATOBAR dream.

We cannot deploy a fixed wing AEW for the carrier fleet unless we get a CATOBAR ourselves. The MOD has not approved a plan and we'll need to wait until the 2030s even if a plan was approved yesterday.

And there is basically just one fixed-wing AEW carrier aircraft anyways -- the E-2 -- when we get there.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby chola » 12 Sep 2019 15:39

AEW helos are so diverse in their solutions to the problem of hanging a rotating radar that can give you 360 degree of coverage.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Manish_P » 12 Sep 2019 16:09

chola wrote:
Yak-44 was abandoned decades ago along with their CATOBAR dream.

We cannot deploy a fixed wing AEW for the carrier fleet unless we get a CATOBAR ourselves. The MOD has not approved a plan and we'll need to wait until the 2030s even if a plan was approved yesterday.

And there is basically just one fixed-wing AEW carrier aircraft anyways -- the E-2 -- when we get there.


Abandoned need not be for entirety. They did show models of what looked like Yak-44 in their proposed next carrier & super carrier (if and when they get round to building them, of course).

So like we considered the joint development of the 5th gen fighter, the troop transport aircraft with them, perhaps we might consider thinking along the same lines for our ship-based fixed-wing AEW. That might give us one option -- to the E-2 -- when we get there.. and around the time we do get there.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby chola » 12 Sep 2019 17:02

^^^ Good points, Manish. Their AEW on that model looks just like the E-2 though. Could be just artistic license and no concrete plan.

Also the Russians have recently waited for India to pay for their naval aviation development. They have 3 Kamov-31s. We have 14. They bought 20 MiG-29K AFTER we bought 45. So if we want an E-2 alternative we'll probably have to fund it with orders.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Manish_P » 12 Sep 2019 19:46

I had followed your posts on the AN−132 / Saudi thing and found merit in the thought process.

Ideally option 1 would be to have an entirely homegrown platform. But if a really good deal is possible it might save a lot of time & effort and having to re-invent the wheel..

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby souravB » 12 Sep 2019 20:52

This is going OT but Chola sir, there is a concept of putting an AEW antenna on the osprey for providing organic AEW capability to USMC from their LHDs. Boeing was confident about the program AFAIR.
That reminds me, why are we still not considering the Ospreys for IN? It could definitely change the long range logistics in the IOR.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Philip » 12 Sep 2019 21:17

Size of lifts of our two CVs a problem for now. However, if a Hawkeye sized AEW bird can be jointly developed it could also be used on land and our islands. No idea about the Yak-44 situ, but if the RuN is serious about their future larger CVs and the Kuz., then such a bird will be required. Our CABS slab sided radar could be used instead of a radome as an alternative.All one needs is the platform that could fit aboard larger lifts. The work could start right now to be ready in a few years.
Such a bird could complement the EMB AEW Netras and work out perhaps cheaper too.


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