Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 14 Sep 2019 02:46

Another image of LCA Navy NP-1 just after the successful arrested landing trial

link

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 14 Sep 2019 02:53

More images. So good to see the team happy over this achievement.

Dr Girish Deodhare present as well.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Sep 2019 05:30

Kakarat wrote:First arrested landing of Naval LCA successful

...
The NP-1 was piloted by Cmde J A Maolankar (Chief Test Pilot) with
assistance from Capt Shivnath Dahiya (Landing Safety Officer) and Cdr
J D Raturi (Test Director)
...

Sources confirm that the landing speed of NP-1 was at 132 knots and
the sink rate at 4.4 m/s while the arrester hook load was about 37
tonnes.
...

Now divide the arrester hook load of 37 tonnes by the weight (10.5 tonnes?) to get the deceleration.
37/10.5= 3.52 gs.

srai · Post by **srai** » 14 Sep 2019 05:47

Sources conrm that the landing speed of NP-1 was at 132 knots and the sink rate at 4.4 m/s while the arrester hook load was about 37 tonnes.

Before carrier landings, we will see 5.6m+ sink rates achieved.

ramana wrote:...

LCA-N engineers and pilots need to be confident that the fighter can slam down onto the deck of a carrier at a 'sink rate' (rate of descent) of approximately 7.5 metres per second (1,500 feet per minute) without being damaged. Though they may not test the fighter to this limit immediately, they need to successfully prove that they can land with a sink rate of 5.6 metres per second to be qualified for carrier trials. At the moment, the jet has been tested with a sink rate of 5.1 metres per second.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 14 Sep 2019 11:31

Just another day in the LCA Navy program.
Five years down the line, such news items will be like our "User trials of Agni/Prithvi/Akash successful".
Great going by Team LCA Navy.

#JustIn

#NLCA NP-1 did another arrested landing today at SBTF Goa. The flight was piloted by Capt Shivnath Dahiya. That's back-to-back successful flights for Team ADA\ARDC. Good show!

https://t.co/6XRSK2gsBS
https://t.co/tcFfGU1DT4

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/11 ... 04677?s=19

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 14 Sep 2019 11:49

They will be doing these for the next two weeks.

VikramA · Post by **VikramA** » 14 Sep 2019 12:24

What role will naval tejas serve if it is inducted? With navy wanting 57 twin engine MRCA in the form of mig 29k, f-18, naval raf, even if naval tejas is inducted in limited numbers of say 20 aircraft, how will it be used? As a fleet air defense fighter. Or will it replace the jag maritime strike aircraft( for that it does need AC landing ability)

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 14 Sep 2019 12:29

VikramA wrote:What role will naval tejas serve if it is inducted? With navy wanting 57 twin engine MRCA in the form of mig 29k, f-18, naval raf, even if naval tejas is inducted in limited numbers of say 20 aircraft, how will it be used? As a fleet air defense fighter. Or will it replace the jag maritime strike aircraft( for that it does need AC landing ability)

It will teach us how to build Naval Aircrafts. It will help us learn control laws for carrier landings. It will help us to design the twin-engined fighter which may supersede the MRCA someday.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 14 Sep 2019 12:37

Yes apart from the above, the Navy will always require a few Land based fighters for coastal defense of vital ports etc replace Jaguar IM with the land based Anti shipping role with Harpoon 2 etc, and even on carriers like INS Vikram Aditya and INS Vikrant, it will probably have greater up time than the MIG 29K, for fleet Air defense during missions, and Harpoons and Brahmos NG , LGB etc can be carried by it.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 14 Sep 2019 12:40

And fine tune lots of things for when we need to field an unmanned aircraft on our carriers. That day is not far.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 14 Sep 2019 13:47

Arrester hook engagement from the 2nd Recovery.

Did the hook engagement happened when the MLG were still yet to touch down..?? It looks like they are off the ground a few inches still. Or I have I gone blind..??

srai · Post by **srai** » 14 Sep 2019 14:13

VikramA wrote:What role will naval tejas serve if it is inducted? With navy wanting 57 twin engine MRCA in the form of mig 29k, f-18, naval raf, even if naval tejas is inducted in limited numbers of say 20 aircraft, how will it be used? As a fleet air defense fighter. Or will it replace the jag maritime strike aircraft( for that it does need AC landing ability)

1. Useful for training carrier pilots. Think of it as a LIFT.

2. Real-world data Inputs towards future naval aircraft R&D, such as N-LCA Mk.2 and N-AMCA

3. Combat capable from shores as well as load-limited combat from carriers.

4. Operational PBL case study, i.e. spare part consumables, support infrastructure and logistics, along with establishing of suppliers and manufacturers ecosystem

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 14 Sep 2019 16:00

Rakesh wrote:First post in Page 1 of this thread has been updated.

Please check and kindly add any info if necessary.

Thanks.

I think we love these milestones too boss.
When you update page 1.

Slow but steady wins the race

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Sep 2019 18:31

JayS wrote:Arrester hook engagement from the 2nd Recovery.

Did the hook engagement happened when the MLG were still yet to touch down..?? It looks like they are off the ground a few inches still. Or I have I gone blind..??

Gorgeous shot. What is the source? I would love to add this in the first page.

Ramnath · Post by **Ramnath** » 14 Sep 2019 18:52

JayS wrote:Arrester hook engagement from the 2nd Recovery.

Did the hook engagement happened when the MLG were still yet to touch down..?? It looks like they are off the ground a few inches still. Or I have I gone blind..??

Maybe it is the airfcraft bouncing post-landing and post-arrest?

EDITED:
Please ignore bounce comment.
From video below, seems like the aircraft wheels havent touched even when arrest is done. Around 11 sec mark.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 14 Sep 2019 18:57

Noob Pooch. Is the arrester cable elevated or seamed on the deck/runway? Dont they get damaged or spiked when they run over the metallic cables at such high speed?

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 14 Sep 2019 19:22

Vips wrote:Noob Pooch. Is the arrester cable elevated or seamed on the deck/runway? Dont they get damaged or spiked when they run over the metallic cables at such high speed?

Option 1

Option 2

They are very tough ..... I guess they can take a lot of punishment before replaced as per op maint.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 14 Sep 2019 19:28

Rakesh wrote:
JayS wrote:Arrester hook engagement from the 2nd Recovery.

Did the hook engagement happened when the MLG were still yet to touch down..?? It looks like they are off the ground a few inches still. Or I have I gone blind..??
Gorgeous shot. What is the source? I would love to add this in the first page.

LCA FB page

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 14 Sep 2019 19:45

Vips wrote:Noob Pooch. Is the arrester cable elevated or seamed on the deck/runway? Dont they get damaged or spiked when they run over the metallic cables at such high speed?

Quite thick steel wires designed to withstand huge loads, can surely handle aircraft trampling over it. That's not a problem for the wires. But the LG wheels do need to be of larger radius to be able to trample over easily. And the designers need to make sure the disturbance due to LG going over the wire does not interfere with the hook engagement. For ex, F35 initially faced issues as the hook was attached quite close to the MLG and the wires would not have enough time to get back in proper position to catch the hook, once the MLG pass over them. I don't know how exactly they solved it.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 14 Sep 2019 20:21

Vips wrote:Noob Pooch. Is the arrester cable elevated or seamed on the deck/runway? Dont they get damaged or spiked when they run over the metallic cables at such high speed?

Yes, they are always elevated. The aircraft is checked for "bruising"

Jay · Post by **Jay** » 14 Sep 2019 20:43

JayS wrote:Arrester hook engagement from the 2nd Recovery.

Did the hook engagement happened when the MLG were still yet to touch down..?? It looks like they are off the ground a few inches still. Or I have I gone blind..??

It is common practice to get the arrester hooked even before the wheels touchdown.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 14 Sep 2019 22:04

^^ I was not expecting to see this at such early stage.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Sep 2019 22:14

The NLCA has its space in the IN's firmanent.It can be a very useful addition to our carrier combat aircraft inventory. If you look at the kind of weaponry and ordnance that the LCA/ NLCA is to carry, from BVR, WVR AAMs, and ALCMs, they're almost uniformly carried across our heavier aircraft and underscores this light- to-medium ( Mk-2) birds attractiveness.Even SAAB has offered the Sea Gripen as a naval bird , earlier even for the Viraat.The Gripen and Tejas are in the same class.

I've said before that the NLCA could be used on smaller flat tops/ light carriers, amphibs, not just med. or large CVs, increasing their lethality.In fact there is a debate going on in the US about building smaller carriers since super-carriers are in some quarters sitting ducks for saturation supersonic and in the future hypersonic missiles not to mention Chinese BMs.The loss of a single large carrier would send about $15B to Davy Jones' locker !

Secondly, the NLCA and the Mk- 2 versions to come in the future, given their smaller size, would allow more aircraft to be carried aboard a CV. In the future carrier UCAVs as being tried out on USN CVs will feature more in the scheme of things. Though in terms of range, combat radius and endurance a twin-engined heavy aircraft is superior, larger numbers allow increased aircraft for simultaneous fleet air defence and strike.

The IN has a very limited expeditionary maritime agenda if at all, unlike the US. Our primary task for naval strike aircraft would be destroying the enemy's fleet ( Chinese) and assets at sea, defending our island territories and landmass from enemy attack, and in the case of Pak,apart from destroying its fleet at sea and in port, launching strikes against its ports, naval bases, military and industrial installations and merchantmen.

The requirement of a naval LIFT has been mentioned. We could use the two-seat trainer as such, but given our small inventory of 29Ks and having only 2, perhaps 3 CVs in the future , it may become an expensive proposition in building a v.small number..The Hawk is already with the IN as the LIFT/ AJT. 20+ regular NLCAs combat capable would be better. The IN should continue to push ahead with its development.It will be a greater day when the NLCA touches down on an IN CV!

RonyKJ · Post by **RonyKJ** » 14 Sep 2019 23:57

Is there a way for the pilot to see the location of the cable and the arrestor hook while landing?
Or does he go by markings on the deck?

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 15 Sep 2019 00:57

RonyKJ wrote:Is there a way for the pilot to see the location of the cable and the arrestor hook while landing?
Or does he go by markings on the deck?

There is a landing aid system to help pilot stay on proper glide path which then ensures he hits the deck at right spot. The one which STBF has is called LUNA Optical Landing System. Its russian of coarse. but same as American system I think, see youtube for videos how its done. Much easier to understand that way.

D.Mahesh · Post by **D.Mahesh** » 15 Sep 2019 05:07

Cmde.Mao is way too senior to be doing test flights. After several years on the Tejas, he's now working on NLCA. How about the next cohort taking over actual flight testing

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 15 Sep 2019 05:46

He was never with Tejas. Always with LCA Navy. Some people have the passion to fly. Others are deskbound. A certain gent heading Boeing India now is the biggest impediment to LCA Navy Mk2. Any guesses which fighter he would want to see on Indian ships?!!!

srai · Post by **srai** » 15 Sep 2019 06:01

D.Mahesh wrote:Cmde.Mao is way too senior to be doing test flights. After several years on the Tejas, he's now working on NLCA. How about the next cohort taking over actual flight testing

To be a long-term test pilot for R&D in IAF/IN means forfeiting promotions. Those who stay with the test flight program really love to fly!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 Sep 2019 08:29

Yaas! Boeing are pulling out all stops touting the SH as the best snake-oil medicine for the IN's fleet air arm. Despite the 29K being an excellent fighter ( teething troubles acknowledged), and much cheaper too (we got them for just $28M a pop), lifts too small for the SH aboard both our current carriers, Boeing are scratching their heads bald in trying to engineer a cradle that will tilt their bird at an angle and shoehorn it onto the lifts of IAC-1.Imagine that onerous task in choppy seas.It is Boeing the grey eminence behind the IN's apparent lust for a 3rd. large carrier, not for our future strategic purposes but to sell us their ancient ware!

A past chief with a good background in aviation,was rather sceptical about the 57 extra birds that Boeing....sorry! .....the IN wants us to buy. A sister ship to the Vikrant does not satisfy Boeing's appetite as the obvious choice for its air arm would be 29Ks , perhaps even upgraded with MIG-35 features.

We must persevere with the NLCA relentlessly. The smaller CVs of Japan and SoKo , some to have JSFs aboard, shows that for the light carrier market at around $40M a pop, the NLCA has no rival globally, the JSF being thrice its cost, unavailable to many and the Sea Gripen at the moment merely a paper plane. Countries like Brazil and aspiring carrier navies would find the NLCA a very attractive buy. In fact I would go a step even further and offer the IAC-1 design as a template for light/ med. carriers from 30K t onwards to be accompanied by NLCAs.These could be built in India at even shipyards like L& T or abroad. MOD, are you listening?

PS: CSL/ Naval Design establishment should quickly work out a basic concept for a 30/35K carrier which has lifts that are large enough for the LCA, 29K , etc. in a ski-jump configuration for potential buyers.

D.Mahesh · Post by **D.Mahesh** » 15 Sep 2019 08:46

Indranil wrote:He was never with Tejas. Always with LCA Navy. Some people have the passion to fly. Others are deskbound. A certain gent heading Boeing India now is the biggest impediment to LCA Navy Mk2. Any guesses which fighter he would want to see on Indian ships?!!!

Group Captain George Thomas, built like a bull, has commanded a squadron of Su-30MKIs. Group Captain Ritu Raj Tyagi, the most experienced of the group and a former Jaguar combat commander, ran the last Mumbai marathon as a diversion from flight testing. Captain Jaideep Maolankar, who cut his teeth flying Sea Harrier fighters off naval aircraft carriers, commanded warship INS Ganga as it chased pirates off the Somali coast. Group Captain Venugopal, like Varma, has commanded a MiG-21 squadron on the Pakistani border.

https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 018_1.html

I know that MAO is determined to make a carrier landing + takeoff of the NLCA on high seas. But his being, without doubt, the world's best NAVAV test aviator must not be forgotten

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 15 Sep 2019 20:33

Colleagues of Mao Sir are at three star ranks now, and he retired as Commodore. Somehow, ADA folk didn't like him, while folk like Nambiar Sir had good rapport.

The arrester cable is strung some 4-6 inches above deck, and the well used ones have many nicks and kinks due to the tyres slamming them on deck. I had the fortune to actually see and touch it on the deck of Vicky.

BTW, I see folk standing close to the show. Are they far enough from a whiplash of a breaking cable?

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 15 Sep 2019 20:58

My thought exactly, a broken cable (which is few inches thick steel cable) whiplash would have cut most of these gents in half within blink of an eye)

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 15 Sep 2019 21:13

Good point. The cable spans then entire width of the runway. And if it snaps at the other end, the cable seems long enough to reach around the building they are standing behind. As a point of fact, this can happen in future; and more likely to happen, as repeated trials are done and wear out the cable over time. No one should be that close.

The NCLA is one cool-looking aircraft, far better than the LCA, IMHO. Gets me every time I see it. It has been said of the San Francisco Golden Gate bridge (a nice piece of architecture)- one cannot take a bad picture of this bridge. I think the same holds true of NLCA- it looks cool from all angles, and even casually-taken photo by one with no photo-gyan will look impressive.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 15 Sep 2019 21:17

The cables are replaced after 100 traps.

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 15 Sep 2019 21:19

If the cable snaps, you also lose an expensive aircraft and an irreplaceable pilot; so I am sure there are procedures in place to ensure that cables don't snap.

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 15 Sep 2019 21:31

Mechanical objects fail, sometimes unexpectedly.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Sep 2019 21:48

yensoy wrote:If the cable snaps, you also lose an expensive aircraft and an irreplaceable pilot; so I am sure there are procedures in place to ensure that cables don't snap.

First of all its wire rope.
The factor of safety for a wire rope handling humans is 6.
The wire rope is examined for damage, broken wires etc before planes are allowed to land.
As sankum said its replaced after 100 landings.
The reason is tension fatigue as wire rope gets pulled and stretched and don't want the wire rope to fail.

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 15 Sep 2019 22:57

The arrestor cable is meant to be able to resist and is not a single fiber but a rope with multiple strands. Not easy to break. Suspension bridges are "suspended' using these.The breaking forces etc are well known.

srin · Post by **srin** » 16 Sep 2019 00:00

Simple youtube search showed me this on USN Carrier

Rare but it happens. And so, there is a lot of reason to be outside the "snap zone".

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Sep 2019 00:02

JayS wrote:Arrester hook engagement from the 2nd Recovery.

Did the hook engagement happened when the MLG were still yet to touch down..?? It looks like they are off the ground a few inches still. Or I have I gone blind..??

your eyes are crystal clear. this would be the first arrestor cable, and pretty sure it would have landed by the time it hits the secondary (shown in the pic as well - the dark line that I think it is.)

here is the proof:

Kakarat wrote:

At around 0.04 sec of the video, it hits the primary. At around 0.5, you see nTejas cross the secondary. watch it in 0.25 playback speed.

Q: are these videos intentionally distributed with poor resolution/quality?