Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Khalsa » 14 Sep 2019 15:56

Karan M wrote:The Akash 1S is being called the Akash 2?

The original Akash 2 being renamed the Akash NG.



Can the gurus break it down please ?
twitterati and wiki are not aligned.

I remember seeing the NG Shape. Quite different.
Unsure of NG and Akash 2 are the same thing.

Akash 1 - In service
Akash 1S - 5 tests completed. Cleared but not in service and no orders so far.
Akash 2 ???
Akash NG ???

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 14 Sep 2019 16:38

There are 3 Akash programs.
Akash Mk1
Akash Mk1S - w/seeker
Akash Mk2, now the term Akash NG is used.

So its likely the Akash Mk1S became the Mk2
The Mk2 became the Akash NG

Makes sense?

The prior report notes the order is for Akash 2. Since the NG is in devpt, if the report is correct, it means the 1S has been ordered.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby John » 14 Sep 2019 18:07

Kanson wrote:Only Spyder-MR, Derby with booster has height ceiling of around 14 km.
Pls find out the height ceiling of Spyder-SR.
Of these two, pls find out which one participated in Indian Army SR-SAM tender.
Obviously you will know the answer.

Not sure the point of sarcastic comment while completing ignoring the question, If you are wrong please admit it or ignore and move on. As for your comment i will entertain that even Spyder-SR has altitude of 9 km (limited by Python not derby) still more than 6 km of qr sam as you were claiming and MR has altitude of 14 km (Spyder Er rounds are more similar to qr sam in dimensions.)

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Khalsa » 14 Sep 2019 19:24

Karan M wrote:There are 3 Akash programs.
Akash Mk1
Akash Mk1S - w/seeker
Akash Mk2, now the term Akash NG is used.

So its likely the Akash Mk1S became the Mk2
The Mk2 became the Akash NG

Makes sense?

The prior report notes the order is for Akash 2. Since the NG is in devpt, if the report is correct, it means the 1S has been ordered.


Brilliant sir. Thank you Karan.
Heartened to know 1S orders are out.
Nice

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kakarat » 17 Sep 2019 15:51

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/11 ... 5491878913
Air-to-Air missile #Astra has been successfully flight tested off the coast of Odisha from a Su-30 MKI as a part of the user trials. The live aerial target was engaged accurately demonstrating the capability of first indigenous air-to-air missile, says a release.


Image
Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Raghunathgb » 17 Sep 2019 15:57

Khalsa wrote:
Brilliant sir. Thank you Karan.
Heartened to know 1S orders are out.
Nice


So with seeker capability in 1S ,has the range of akash missile increased apart from better target ability when target is outside radar horizon. I had read that akash range increase by 5-10 kms due to added capability. Is it correct or still range remains same ?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kakarat » 17 Sep 2019 15:58

Air-to-Air missile Astra successfully flight tested from Su-30 MKI


Air-to-Air missile Astra has been successfully flight tested off the coast of Odisha. The missile was launched today from Su-30 MKI as a part of User trials. The live aerial target was engaged accurately demonstrating the capability of first indigenous air-to-air missile.

The mission profile was executed in a text book manner. Various Radars, Electro-Optical Tracking System (EOTS) and Sensors tracked the missile and confirmed its engagement with target.

Raksha Mantri Shri Rajnath Singh congratulated DRDO and Air Force teams for the successful test.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 17 Sep 2019 16:01

Come on PAF, try something like 27 Feb and you have your jets at the receiving end of these creating more doosra Bandas.

IAF Sukhoi Su-30MKI successfully test-fires Astra BVR Air-to-Air missile developed by DRDO
https://zeenews.india.com/india/iaf-sukhoi-su-30mki-successfully-test-fires-astra-bvr-air-to-air-missile-developed-by-drdo-2234965.html

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Reported By: Zee Media Bureau
Edited By: Ipsita Sarkar
Updated: Sep 17, 2019, 15:39 PM IST

An Indian Air Force (IAF) Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighter Tuesday successfully test-fired the indigenous Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air Astra missile with a range of over 70 kilometers. The Astra missile, which can fly towards its target at a speed of over 5,555 kilometres per housr (4.5 Mach) with a 15 kilogramme high-explosive pre-fragmented warhead, was test-fired under the guidance of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) from the Su-30MKI combat aircraft that took off from an airbase in West Bengal.

The indigenously-developed Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air Missile (BVRAAM) Astra missile has been developed by DRDO and integrated on Su-30MKI and other air platforms, a previous statement from the research organisation said. Modfications of the Su-30MKI jets to accommodate Astra missiles has been carried out by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). More than 50 private and public sector industries have been involved in the development and production of Astra missile.

In October 2018, the IAF had successfully test-fired the solid propellant Astra missile several times over a period of a week to judge its capability in the engagement of pilotless target in different modes of manoeuvring, off-boresight, medium and long ranges. The Astra missiles are equipped with mid-course inertial guidance and terminal active radar homing. They are capable of targeting the enemy aircraft or missiles at short-range (20 km) as well as at BVR (over 70 km).

IAF is also in the process of integrated the Astra with its Dassault Mirage 2000, Mikoyan-Gurevic MiG-29 fighters as well as the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft Tejas. The 154 kilogramme Astra is 3.57 metres long with a diametre of 178 milimetres. Its warhead is detonated by a radar proximity fuse. The maximum altitude from which the missile can be fired is 20 km. According to DRDO, Astra's maximum range is 110 km and there are plans to develop a 300-km range version too.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 17 Sep 2019 16:45

If its not classified, can we know the launcher aircraft with Serial No SB 023- which squadron is it and is it one of 50 built in Russia?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby JayS » 17 Sep 2019 16:53

Aditya_V wrote:If its not classified, can we know the launcher aircraft with Serial No SB 023- which squadron is it and is it one of 50 built in Russia?


10sec away with Google. :) From Sq 20. And yes likely from the first batch.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Galle ... 5.jpg.html

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 17 Sep 2019 17:05

And offcourse BRF has the same aircraft PIC Sometimes I hope the BR keep some info under wraps like the Pakis who misused the database on 27 Feb 19 morning

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Vips » 17 Sep 2019 18:18

70 Kms range trial is good what i am now hoping for is an announcement within the next couple of weeks of the Astra being successfully user trialed for its max range of 110 Kms.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 17 Sep 2019 18:26

You do realize thats range has very little practical connotation? Why would you want to waste a missile?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby naird » 17 Sep 2019 18:51



This is great news ! One question -
1. We all know that test would have been conducted against a pilotless aircraft - most probably Banshee. How does it mimic a actual fighter a/c performance ? A fighter a/c will perform evasive manuveurs to defeat the missile - such as Terrain Masking , Going between mountains , cranking, etc .. Does Banshee mimic these real world conditions or Astra is just evaluated for the capability to hit a target in different conditions ?

Is this questions has been answered , then let me know.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karthik S » 17 Sep 2019 20:11

Karan M wrote:You do realize thats range has very little practical connotation? Why would you want to waste a missile?


Even for a Meteor ?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Vips » 17 Sep 2019 20:37

Karan M wrote:You do realize thats range has very little practical connotation? Why would you want to waste a missile?


Max range BVR that Fizzle-Ya has is Amraam at 110 Kms. Pakis know we do not lie. Once we announce that Astra has been trialed at 110Kms on SU30MKI the PAF will not dare to be in the same air theater knowing the Astra will have by the massive cueing power of the SU30 MKI. Events on Feb 26 would have been a lot different with a 110KM range BVR in our inventory.

Question of wastage simply does not arise as if there is no trial how can IAF as the user agency be sure of the max range?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nash » 17 Sep 2019 21:02

Any possibility of Russian C4I with Indian C4I and missiles such as: Akash-MkII (50-70Km), Barak-8ER (150KM), XRSAM (250Km) and 40N6E (400Km).

India, Turkey to make S-400 with Russia; move could annoy US
https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/world ... 41111.html

In a disclosure that has far-reaching implications, Sergey Chemezov, head of Rostec, told Russian business daily RBC in an interview that India is in talks with Russia to jointly manufacture the very powerful S-400 air defence missile system.

“Yes, we are also discussing localization with India. A lot of equipment for which we sold a license to India: Su-30 aircraft, then a T-90 tank, BrahMos missiles were created with them together, on their territory, together with their scientists,” said Chemezov.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby srai » 17 Sep 2019 21:34

Time for bulk orders!!!

Kakarat wrote:https://twitter.com/writetake/status/1173897455491878913
Air-to-Air missile #Astra has been successfully flight tested off the coast of Odisha from a Su-30 MKI as a part of the user trials. The live aerial target was engaged accurately demonstrating the capability of first indigenous air-to-air missile, says a release.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby rohitvats » 17 Sep 2019 22:32

Karan M - You've PM.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby YashG » 17 Sep 2019 22:41

Vips wrote:
Karan M wrote:You do realize thats range has very little practical connotation? Why would you want to waste a missile?


Max range BVR that Fizzle-Ya has is Amraam at 110 Kms. Pakis know we do not lie. Once we announce that Astra has been trialed at 110Kms on SU30MKI the PAF will not dare to be in the same air theater knowing the Astra will have by the massive cueing power of the SU30 MKI. Events on Feb 26 would have been a lot different with a 110KM range BVR in our inventory.

Question of wastage simply does not arise as if there is no trial how can IAF as the user agency be sure of the max range?


<hazy memory recall>
I remember there was posted a link of some article ( either in this thread or some other) in which a senior IAF/DRDO (?) personnel has said that Astra has slightly higher range than what our enemies field. I'm assuming it meant >AMRAAM & >R77

But otherwise I would be interested too in knowing what is the practical range of AMRAAM if brochure range is 110Kms. ( Assuming practical range of Astra 70Kms and brochure range 110Kms _ Correct me if I'm wrong)

Secondly yes how do tests done on trial objects compare with one in real life against maneuverable aircraft.

*very interested to know this*

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 17 Sep 2019 22:49

All such long ranges are for head on engagement.
The chase engagement range is much less. Nearly a quarter to a third.
The Banshee target is used world wide to qualify AAMs.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby YashG » 17 Sep 2019 23:20

ramana wrote:All such long ranges are for head on engagement.
The chase engagement range is much less. Nearly a quarter to a third.
The Banshee target is used world wide to qualify AAMs.


Image

110 Kms is the right hand side scenario in this diagram. On 27th - F16s were locking from a large distance - that was an head on lock?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 17 Sep 2019 23:33

Yes. And fired and lost the lock. Some of the AAMAbduls fell way beyond LOC and were displayed in the news conference.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kartik » 18 Sep 2019 00:35

What a beautiful smokeless flame. Cannot spot the missile being fired at all. Will give no hint to an enemy that a missile has been fired and is on its way.

Tarmak Twitter link of Astra missile firing video

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby sudeepj » 18 Sep 2019 00:48

Raghunathgb wrote:
Khalsa wrote:
Brilliant sir. Thank you Karan.
Heartened to know 1S orders are out.
Nice


So with seeker capability in 1S ,has the range of akash missile increased apart from better target ability when target is outside radar horizon. I had read that akash range increase by 5-10 kms due to added capability. Is it correct or still range remains same ?


The range of the Akash system was limited by the resolution of the guidance radar, as its a command guided missile. At higher ranges, the guidance radar becomes ineffective as the resolution of the radar is not good enough. Kinematically, the missile was capable of higher ranges. Putting a seeker in the missile allows full exploitation of the kinematic envelope of the missile. How much is the range? How long will a streamlined object going at Mach 2.8 at a height of several kilometers continue to fly? Quite far I suppose. The exact number may be classified.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 18 Sep 2019 04:20

Karthik S wrote:
Karan M wrote:You do realize thats range has very little practical connotation? Why would you want to waste a missile?


Even for a Meteor ?


For any missile. You want to see the range which is within its envelope where the motor is "active" and ensure that it does the job. 1-2 tests to examine the max ballistic range against a non maneuvering target are at best an academic exercise. The difference between the Meteor and a standard missile is its motor is throttleable and is active for a fair amount of time.

Max range BVR that Fizzle-Ya has is Amraam at 110 Kms. Pakis know we do not lie. Once we announce that Astra has been trialed at 110Kms on SU30MKI the PAF will not dare to be in the same air theater knowing the Astra will have by the massive cueing power of the SU30 MKI. Events on Feb 26 would have been a lot different with a 110KM range BVR in our inventory.

Question of wastage simply does not arise as if there is no trial how can IAF as the user agency be sure of the max range?


You are not getting the point. There is a maximum range which is the RMax. There is the range within which the missile is optimally effective. The latter matters more. As far as tests go, in 2017:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... s?from=mdr

The final development Flight Trials of Astra were successfully conducted in September last year, the sources said adding a total of seven trials were conducted against pilotless target aircraft successfully from September 11 to 14, 2017.

The missions included engagement of target at very long range, engagement of high maneuvering target at medium range and multiple launches of missiles in salvo to engage multiple targets.

All the sub-systems including the indigenous RF Seeker performed accurately, meeting all the mission parameters and objectives. Two missiles were also launched in the combat configuration with warhead and the targets were neutralized, the sources said.


The underlined portion is where the target is at highest risk.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 18 Sep 2019 04:24

sudeepj wrote:
Raghunathgb wrote:
So with seeker capability in 1S ,has the range of akash missile increased apart from better target ability when target is outside radar horizon. I had read that akash range increase by 5-10 kms due to added capability. Is it correct or still range remains same ?


The range of the Akash system was limited by the resolution of the guidance radar, as its a command guided missile. At higher ranges, the guidance radar becomes ineffective as the resolution of the radar is not good enough. Kinematically, the missile was capable of higher ranges. Putting a seeker in the missile allows full exploitation of the kinematic envelope of the missile. How much is the range? How long will a streamlined object going at Mach 2.8 at a height of several kilometers continue to fly? Quite far I suppose. The exact number may be classified.


That wasn't exactly the case with the Akash. The radar can range/guide more. The missile AFAIK has hard limits, within which its currently operating due to the ramjet propulsion. The range quoted for the Akash is basically within which it has a high SSKP, i.e. it maneuvers even as the target does without drastically losing energy and falling away. Just by putting a more powerful AESA radar for instance, with a larger aperture antenna for better resolution than the Rajendra, you can't increase the performance of the Akash.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 18 Sep 2019 04:25

rohitvats wrote:Karan M - You've PM.


Thanks, will check and revert. Hope your old email is still active.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Raghunathgb » 18 Sep 2019 06:53

Karan M - So we can probably assume that akash has a no escape zone of 25 kms because of its extremely good propulsion system.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby John » 18 Sep 2019 07:53

Raghunathgb wrote:Karan M - So we can probably assume that akash has a no escape zone of 25 kms because of its extremely good propulsion system.

Not sure I follow you Akash Ramjet design (dates back to Sa-6) is bit dated it cannot be throttled and has fairly limited burn time. Russians switched to solid propellant for Sa-11/17 due to that and same goes for Akash NG.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby rohitvats » 18 Sep 2019 11:00

Karan M wrote:
rohitvats wrote:Karan M - You've PM.


Thanks, will check and revert. Hope your old email is still active.


Yes, its active.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby JayS » 18 Sep 2019 12:10

I kind of remember vaguely to have read that Astra uses the same pylon as R-77 and hence (together with other factors) its easier to integrate with any jet which already can handle R-77. Can someone confirm is this is correct or wrong..? I am not able to find any reference from google.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Raghunathgb » 18 Sep 2019 13:17

JayS wrote:I kind of remember vaguely to have read that Astra uses the same pylon as R-77 and hence (together with other factors) its easier to integrate with any jet which already can handle R-77. Can someone confirm is this is correct or wrong..? I am not able to find any reference from google.


The Astra is fired from the Russian Vympel launcher -- a rail under a fighter aircraft's wing from which the missile hangs.

The Vympel launcher is integrated with all four of India's current generation fighters -- the Su-30MKI, MiG-29, Mirage 2000 and the Tejas -- allowing the Astra to be fired from all of them.

https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/m.rediff ... pecial.htm

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 18 Sep 2019 13:20

Nice to hear this, hope the Derby on Tejas is using Ex- Indian Navy stocks and Astra is used by the Squadron in the Near future. Question Gurus are Derby in Spyder and Tejas can used interchangeability? Yes we must have the launchers on Tejas.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby srai » 18 Sep 2019 13:23

Aditya_V wrote:Nice to hear this, hope the Derby on Tejas is using Ex- Indian Navy stocks and Astra is used by the Squadron in the Near future. Question Gurus are Derby in Spyder and Tejas can used interchangeability? Yes we must have the launchers on Tejas.

According to Rafael Spyder brochure yes.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby JayS » 18 Sep 2019 14:32

Raghunathgb wrote:
JayS wrote:I kind of remember vaguely to have read that Astra uses the same pylon as R-77 and hence (together with other factors) its easier to integrate with any jet which already can handle R-77. Can someone confirm is this is correct or wrong..? I am not able to find any reference from google.


The Astra is fired from the Russian Vympel launcher -- a rail under a fighter aircraft's wing from which the missile hangs.

The Vympel launcher is integrated with all four of India's current generation fighters -- the Su-30MKI, MiG-29, Mirage 2000 and the Tejas -- allowing the Astra to be fired from all of them.

https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/m.rediff ... pecial.htm


Thanks a lot.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby JayS » 18 Sep 2019 14:33

Aditya_V wrote:Nice to hear this, hope the Derby on Tejas is using Ex- Indian Navy stocks and Astra is used by the Squadron in the Near future. Question Gurus are Derby in Spyder and Tejas can used interchangeability? Yes we must have the launchers on Tejas.

Its supposed to be one of the USP of SpyDer.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby tsarkar » 18 Sep 2019 15:18

JayS wrote:I kind of remember vaguely to have read that Astra uses the same pylon as R-77 and hence (together with other factors) its easier to integrate with any jet which already can handle R-77. Can someone confirm is this is correct or wrong..? I am not able to find any reference from google.

https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 026_1.html
The air launcher, a rail on which the missile hangs and from which it is launched, is a Russian Vympel launcher that is being built in India. It will allow the Astra to be fired from all four of India's current generation fighters - the Su-30MKI, MiG-29, Mirage 2000 and the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft.

This is the APU-73 launcher used for R-73E

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby brar_w » 18 Sep 2019 17:26

YashG wrote:Secondly yes how do tests done on trial objects compare with one in real life against maneuverable aircraft.


You test against target drones, and other systems that represent a particular threat you may be interested in replicating. This, after individual component testing in both a simulated and live environment. Testing against small subsonic drones right through to larger supersonic, 9G drones that can carry a DFRM/EW countermeasure payload is performed depending upon the need, test objectives, and scale of the program and based on resource and test-range and range-time availability.

Here's an example from the F-35 AMRAAM and AIM-9 Operational Test and Evaluation testing which involved live rounds being launched against the threat type -

https://www.edwards.af.mil/News/Article ... e-testing/
Last edited by brar_w on 18 Sep 2019 17:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ashishvikas » 18 Sep 2019 17:29

DRDO Sources: Third firing of Astra Beyond Visual Range Air to Air Missile was successfully carried out by Air Force and Defence Research and Development Organisation today. The missile hit the live aerial target near Odisha at maximum range of approximately 90 km.

https://t.co/1f0e9hMP8A


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