Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

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Supratik
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Supratik » 11 Sep 2019 23:36


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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Vips » 12 Sep 2019 00:25



India first Civilisation, Analysis by Vasant Shinde at Deccan College, Pune.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 12 Sep 2019 09:37

^^
Good coverage. NewsX seems to be the only channel that gave the Rakhigarhi findings the attention it deserved!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 14 Sep 2019 00:16

Nice video about the Sanauli burial site discovery. Chariots in 2200 - 2000 BCE. With solid wheels. Engraved swords & world's first copper helmet!

Apparently 125 burials were found. I sincerely hope that they excavated carefully & were able to get aDNA from at least some of these.


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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby ramana » 14 Sep 2019 03:16

Shiv wrote a very good analysis of the findings and put it in Google Docs.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 14 Sep 2019 16:02

Saw it Ramana. Nice takedown of the Linguistic fakery & the Salma-quotes-Sabrina syndrome

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Rsatchi » 16 Sep 2019 19:03

https://youtu.be/7slCsPMsOSQ
Lo Ji
Mr Coupta with his 2-paisa analysis on Rakhigarhi DNA :lol:
A bit of time pass :D

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Supratik » 16 Sep 2019 19:27

Read both papers briefly. The Indian side was bulldozed into mentioning that language may have come with the later Steppe migration. It is quite possible the Steppe migrants spoke IE but it could be merely round-tripping as IE may have moved to Steppe earlier through IVC cline. Similar to what happened with Sakas and Kushans who were IE but became Sanskritized. The presence of Steppe genes in Brahmins is highlighted as proof of this but the data has more non-Brahmin castes with Steppe genes. It could simply mean that the Steppe integrated mainly into upper castes and stayed in north India.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Supratik » 17 Sep 2019 01:20

I forgot to add BMAC which they were confident was the homeland till a few years back has no gene flow to South Asia. It has now shifted to Yamnaya migration. My hunch is that it is probably true but has nothing to do with homeland. What the Indians need are more aDNA specially male ones.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 17 Sep 2019 01:41

The "Aryans came from Central Asia" is yet another lie that was busted with Vasant Shinde's paper. If anything, per the latest paper, IVC DNA is found in Central Asia!

So, Vagheesh et al are coining a new term "Inner Asian Mountain corridor", as if its like a new Silk Route through which Aryans galloped on their horses. Central Asia is dropped like a hot-potato & Mountain Corridor is the new black!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Supratik » 17 Sep 2019 02:00

Another point. Reich says there cannot be a Indian homeland as there is no Andamanese in Europe. This can be explained as there were several migrations from both out of India and into India. The earlier IVC migrations out of India may have happened before Andamanese mixture. And god forbid if some day traces of Andamanese is found further up north.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Rsatchi » 21 Sep 2019 13:36

http://dailym.ai/1sqD1kh
Even britshit right wing rags picking up the story
Just like slowly changing from ‘Arabic Numerals ‘to Indic numerals realism dawning on goras that dharmic history older than they thought

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Rsatchi » 21 Sep 2019 13:45

https://twitter.com/i/status/1175083630785257472
And here you have Professor Emeritus saying Yudisthra had King Ashoka in mind in renouncing kingdom
Yane ki concept of Buddhism predate dharmic culture
Senility or pure hatred of ones roots!!!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby hanumadu » 21 Sep 2019 15:59

Talk by Dr Gyaneshwar Chaubey. Makes some very interesting claims to put it mildly.


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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby hanumadu » 21 Sep 2019 16:02

In the Rakhigarhi aDNA paper, they examined a 4000 BCE skeleton and said that Indian and Iranians separated before 8000 BCE.
Why couldn't they have concluded the same thing by examining modern Indians and Iranians?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby hanumadu » 21 Sep 2019 17:03

At 12:30, Dr Chaubey says that David Riech does not sequence the whole genome but only parts of it. If a mutation is missed, then the whole Y-DNA gets messed up and that's why they have placed Indian branch of R1a under Europes.

A lady from Tatiana Karafet from University of Arizona studied the F haplo group and it is only present in Africa and South Asia and South East Asia. The haplogroup K which is a child of F originated in South East Asia. Haplogroup R is a child of K which means R must have traveled from South East Asia to the West. Using this reasoning, Chaubey and team studied 5000 DNA samples and he says that R1a originated in India.

He says that there is a common ancestor for the european branch of R1a and Indian branch of R1a (M780) but neither is a parent of the other, but the parent originated in India. He gives the examples of Chimpanzee and Humans. There is a common ancestor that gave rise to Chimpanzees and Humans but neither is a parent of other.

Highest diversity of R1a is found in Gangetic plains but highest frequency is found in south India. So he concludes R1a originated in gangetic plains.

He talks something about R*, but I didn't understand that part.

Added Later: The split between Indian and European R1a occured between 6K to 10K years before.
Added Later: All the branches from R1a to M780, the complete lineage of R dating from 20,000 years seem to be present in current Indians. If we have all the branches right from R1a in India itself, then it must have originated in India, according to Dr Chaubey.

PS. There seem to be large holes in Y DNA tree and larger and larger samples need to be studied to give a more accurate picture.
Last edited by hanumadu on 21 Sep 2019 22:27, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Supratik » 21 Sep 2019 17:28

The more ancient you go the less mixture you will get and therefore more clarity of origin you will get. Hence you study ancient DNA. Modern Indian or Iranian DNA will have the latter mixtures and hence less clarity.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Supratik » 21 Sep 2019 17:41

It should be Saraswati river and not Indus river in that article. The author seems confused which river.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 21 Sep 2019 21:19

Supratik wrote:Another point. Reich says there cannot be a Indian homeland as there is no Andamanese in Europe. This can be explained as there were several migrations from both out of India and into India. The earlier IVC migrations out of India may have happened before Andamanese mixture. And god forbid if some day traces of Andamanese is found further up north.


This is garbage from Reich. We have 1 aDNA samples so far. As we excavate more, we will find the OIT evidence. Our geneticists should also define specific Indian ancestries & map the European/Steppe/Central-Asian/Iranian populations against these.

A handful of scattered cultures in Europe & they split them into hajaar categories like CHG, EHG, West Steppe Hunter Gatherer etc etc. Imagine the number of Indian categories, given the depth of time our ancestry goes into & the geographical diversity.

This is typical Euro-trash approach. Make each of their small populations look like a major cartesian coordinate vector & play up their importance. But describe all of Africa as if its one town. Or call all of Indian subcontinent as Sooth Asia.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 21 Sep 2019 21:33

Here is an awesome slide from Dr. Chaubey's talk. Talks about how K* originated in Southeast Asia and how R* originated in India. He, Rai and others have analyzed 5000 samples from all over India, especially from the Himalayas. In Himalayas, they found people living today with R*!!

Per the image below and based on their analysis, Dr. Chaubey is stating that R* originated in the Himalayas.

Not only R*, they have found people with R1, R1a, R1a1 etc. Dr. Chaubey concludes that R & all its sub-clades have likely origin in India. A paper is upcoming & its going to be more burnol for the AIT camp

Image
Last edited by Prem Kumar on 22 Sep 2019 13:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Supratik » 21 Sep 2019 22:04

We have just scratched the surface in terms of archaeology. We don't know what is there in east, central and south India. Today itself a site came up in Tamil Nadu which says the Harappans moved as south as Tamil Nadu. This is because Indians have not invested in finding their origins and left it to the West to do it.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Supratik » 22 Sep 2019 20:40


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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby dinesh_kimar » 22 Sep 2019 22:48

Supratik wrote:This is because Indians have not invested in finding their origins and left it to the West to do it.


This is sadly true. Our ASI is one of the most inept organisations around.

Even places like UK and Thailand punch above their weight in history and culture.

Our heritage is a source of employment and revenue if managed properly.

The UK estimates that it earns about 7.3 billion GBP a year from its 20,000 monuments. (Much more than India, with Rs.70 crore revenue from top 10 sites.)

The UK developed a small ground penetrating radar to explore historic sites. They build scale models of historic sites, using highly skilled model makers. These people have even done work for ASI, who have many employees, but not many specialist skilled staff.

The West has built special clean rooms with UV light where ancient scrolls can be worked on, researched, scanned,etc.

I have read articles in newspaper, where they mentioned some Indian artefacts going to Europe for restoration.

The famous jewellery firm, Cartier's, have restored various artefacts of the Patiala royal family in the past.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby sudarshan » 24 Sep 2019 08:26

https://swarajyamag.com/culture/how-doe ... erivatives

How does Tamil literature and culture use the term Aryan and its derivatives?

The article claims "Iyer" is derived from "Arya." Also, the Tamil word "Ariya" which can also mean "noble" in a sense.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby ShyamSP » 24 Sep 2019 08:57

sudarshan wrote:https://swarajyamag.com/culture/how-does-tamil-literature-and-culture-use-the-term-aryan-and-its-derivatives

How does Tamil literature and culture use the term Aryan and its derivatives?

The article claims "Iyer" is derived from "Arya." Also, the Tamil word "Ariya" which can also mean "noble" in a sense.


FYI.

In Telugu/South, Arya = Ayya. Ayya means/is used to address honorable man/sir/saab, any elder man, father, and husband. It is also in name endings. Ramaiah = Rama + Ayya which means Rama Arya (many male names in old days end with Ayya regardless of caste/kula/Jati/Varna they belong to)

Tamil caste name such as Iyer is derived from Ayya-varu (meaning Arya person) and Iyengar is from Ayya-Garu = Ayya Garulu = Arya Gauravaniya (Respectable Arya) - Garu in Telugu is short for Gauravaniyulu/Gauravaniya (Respectable)

Arya as it is used also in Telugu but for specific cases such as Acharya (Achar + Arya). Achari/Acharya is also used across the caste mainly by Brahmins (OCs)/Viswa Brahmins (craftsmen/Salis/OBCs)/Nayi Brahmins (barber/musicians/OBCs).

Only brainwashed people fell into Aryan-Dravidian obfuscation.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby sudarshan » 24 Sep 2019 09:06

ShyamSP wrote:FYI.

In Telugu/South, Arya = Ayya. Ayya means/is used to address honorable man/sir/saab, any elder man, father, and husband. It is also in name endings. Ramaiah = Rama + Ayya which means Rama Arya (many male names in old days end with Ayya regardless of caste/kula/Jati/Varna they belong to)

Tamil caste name such as Iyer is derived from Ayya-varu (meaning Arya person) and Iyengar is from Ayya-Garu = Ayya Garulu = Arya Gauravaniya (Respectable Arya) - Garu in Telugu is short for Gauravaniyulu/Gauravaniya (Respectable)

Arya as it is used also in Telugu but for specific cases such as Acharya (Achar + Arya). Achari/Acharya is also used across the caste mainly by Brahmins (OCs)/Viswa Brahmins (craftsmen/Salis/OBCs)/Nayi Brahmins (barber/musicians/OBCs).

Only brainwashed people fell into Aryan-Dravidian obfuscation.


Wow thanks, did not know about those connections from Tamil/ Telugu back to "Arya" in Sanskrit. Any references?

Ayya I know, now that I think of it, it is very similar to Arya (Aryaputra in Sanskrit). Wives used to refer to their husbands as "aryaputr" (noble one - not in the sense of aristocracy, but high ideals). The serial "Mahabharat" by B. R. Chopra used this word a lot. The Tamil translations of the serial used the word "arasa puttirar" ("royal son" - maybe means and is derived from the same word "arya").

And "Acharya" definitely sounds like it would trace back to "Arya."

I've also wondered about "Iyengar" before. There is this distinction of "vadagalai" vs. "thengalai" Iyengars (north-originating vs. south-originating) and the "namams" that the two sects wear on their foreheads are different. Would you know about the origin of that?

One of the comments to that article points out that "Dravida" is itself a Sanskrit word! Apparently derived from "Dravya" for all the medicinal plants along the eastern/ western ghats.

One blogger recently interpreted "Dravidam" as "Theera-vidam" (endless poison) for the spirit of India - that's what it has unfortunately become.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Rony » 24 Sep 2019 22:42

Shrikant Talageri's Latest on Rakhigarhi and After

It is up to the geneticists who claim that the external origin of the Indo-European languages is not proved by the genetic evidence, to state, if possible in a joint statement, and definitely in writing, that Genetics can tell us about the different ancestral strands in any individual or population, but it cannot tell us about the languages spoken by the original carriers of those ancestral strands, and that that can only be shown by the linguistic, archaeological and textual data and evidence. Further, it is up to these geneticists to ask the other geneticists and non-geneticists, who are claiming that the "genetic evidence" proves this Indo-European expansion from the Steppes after 2000 BCE, to first disprove my chronological case for the Rigveda showing the date of the Old Rigveda to be far before 2500 BCE in a purely Indo-European environment within India in Haryana to the east of the Sarasvatī - without this, the "genetic evidence" is a big zero, and all discussion on this "genetic evidence" is pointless. This sane logic, and sane advice, has already been given by me umpteen times, but the vested interests can simply stonewall it, which they will not be able to do when these geneticists speak up. It is time people stopped playing safe and indulging in double-games and doublespeak, while all the time continuing to draw linguistic conclusions out of genetic data in defiance of and in direct contradiction to the linguistic, archaeological and textual data and evidence, and thereby muddying the waters and turning the whole discussion into a joke. The only casualty is the Truth.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Supratik » 25 Sep 2019 23:46

ASI talk on Sanauli excavations.

https://youtu.be/jU5SMcKePp0

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Primus » 26 Sep 2019 07:28

^

Extremely annoying background music going on all the time during his talk. Had to stop listening to it.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby banrjeer » 26 Sep 2019 14:25

Can any of you message me their email there’s an interesting opportunity for dna testing that will shed more light on these ongoing topics

I’m unable to contact people directly

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 26 Sep 2019 17:48

It was just a Google search away :-)

Check this bio of Dr. Niraj Rai. It has his email address: http://www.bsip.res.in/scientist%20cv/Niraj%20Rai_CV_BSIP.pdf

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby banrjeer » 26 Sep 2019 19:42

Thanks, I meant other people in BR.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby banrjeer » 28 Sep 2019 06:27

Dear all,

DNA ancestry research in India, both modern and ancient faces a funding crunch and some barriers.
Theres an opportunity to help.
If interested please reach out to vibhutibh00@gmail.com and he can provide further details.

Thanks

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Supratik » 10 Oct 2019 23:45

Craniofacial reconstruction of Harappans from excavated skulls by computer tomography. This is how our ancestors the Harappans looked like 4500 years ago.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 512919.cms

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Rony » 22 Oct 2019 19:46

Mahabharata much older, say ASI Archaeologists

Senior archaeologists at the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) claimed on Friday that the Sanskrit epic Mahabharata could date back to 1500-2000 BCE, instead of 900-1000 BCE as commonly believed on the basis of the findings of renowned archaeologist BB Lal.

The claim follows the findings at the excavation site of Sanauli, 68 km away from Delhi, last year, including the discovery of a “war chariot” allegedly driven by a horse, a rusted bow and arrow, a burial site and ochre coloured pottery, war shields, whip, torch and an antennae sword with hilt.


Manjul said his team was revisiting the findings of BB Lal, had who carried out excavations at Indraprastha and Hastinapur in 1951-52. Lal had revealed that around 800 BC a heavy flood in the Ganga had destroyed a considerable portion of the settlement. Based on the relics recovered, he had termed the period painted grey ware (PGW) culture, and had said that this was the earliest common pottery connecting all the Mahabharata sites such as Hastinapur, Mathura, Kurukshetra and Kampilya.

Lal had also estimated that the battle in Kurukshetra to have taken place around 800 BC and had said that the capital was shifted to Kaushambi from Hastinapur during the time of Nichasku, who was the fifth ruler after Parikshit, who ascended the throne after the war, while Udayana, the contemporary of Buddha, was the 19th in the Kuru clan. According to Lal’s research, Udayana would have ruled around 500 BCE, after which there were 24 rulers who ruled for 15 years each.

It is with these calculations that Lal had bracketed the period of the Mahabharata around 900 BC.

“The OCP/copper hoard culture of 2600-1700 BC is known for its urban culture, advanced weapons, daggers, shields, copper, chariots, metal pots, and similarity with vedic rituals which had more similarity with the Mahabharata as we know. We have had evidence of this in some places associated with the Mahabharata including Meerut. But the existing dates are based on the PGW culture which had rural settlements, no chariots, limited pottery and few rituals. These don’t corroborate with the literature evidence of the Mahabharata too,” he said.

Manjul has also looked into the genealogy of the Kuru kings, starting from Pratipa leading to Dhiritrashtra, Pandu and Yudhisthir in the fifth, sixth, seventh ranks, and ending with the 36th king Kshemaka, who is preceded by Iramitra. “The contemporary of Buddha was around 550 BCE which was the 23rd generation of the Kuru kings. If, on average, you give 50 years each to the kings, which reduces in the later generations with frequent wars, the dating of the Mahabharata is around 1750 BCE,” he said.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Rsatchi » 29 Oct 2019 13:11

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 798234.cms
What is this crap!!!
Wonder how long before some 'Max Mueller' type will start beating us with this stick
I mean Desi's are getting Nobeel etc(regardless of Gori-mem in tow :D ), delivering health care in the west, running the computers world-wide so to speak
I suppose we have to inform them that 'Size doesn't Matter' what matters is what is it made up of as my old Hindi teacher is used to shout ' Sir me kya Goobur bhara hai kya' :lol: :lol:

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 04 Nov 2019 13:41

Here's a pretty interesting terracotta tablet, quite likely a Harappan one. Bioluminescence dates it to 300 BCE - 1600 BCE. This looks like the earliest depiction of the Krishna-Arjuna-Chariot scene.

Needless to say, this pushes the age of Mahabharatha back in time. The PGW culture is definitely post-MBH.

I didn't realize that the Bioluminescence method had such a huge variation. If so, I don't know how they mapped out the ages of PGW and other culture using pottery evidence. Perhaps, there are alternate methods? Or is Oxford playing hanky-panky?

https://openthemagazine.com/special/new-nepal-terracotta-tablet-predates-mahabharata-harappa-culture/

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby ashbhee » 04 Nov 2019 23:45

Prem Kumar wrote:Here's a pretty interesting terracotta tablet, quite likely a Harappan one. Bioluminescence dates it to 300 BCE - 1600 BCE. This looks like the earliest depiction of the Krishna-Arjuna-Chariot scene.

Needless to say, this pushes the age of Mahabharatha back in time. The PGW culture is definitely post-MBH.

I didn't realize that the Bioluminescence method had such a huge variation. If so, I don't know how they mapped out the ages of PGW and other culture using pottery evidence. Perhaps, there are alternate methods? Or is Oxford playing hanky-panky?

https://openthemagazine.com/special/new-nepal-terracotta-tablet-predates-mahabharata-harappa-culture/


It also depicts spokes wheel

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 05 Nov 2019 09:38

Yes, it does. The Sanauli chariot has solid wheels. There are a few Harappan seals that depict spoked wheels too. I think its only a matter of time before we excavate a spoked wheel chariot too.


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