HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

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srai
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby srai » 19 Sep 2019 04:00

Squadron formation itself is a two-three year process. Take a look at new squadron formations for new types like Tejas and Rafale. We can also look at Pilatus induction to see the timelines.

JayS wrote:
ramana wrote:
Aircraft are not like potato chips to be made and stocked.
The delivery is as the planes roll off.

This 20 planes requirement means HAL has to make the planes and stock them and the IAF will pay after the delivery of those twenty at one go.
In meantime HAL will accumulate inventory costs and the whole supply chain will get affected. Wont get paid for three to four years to satisfy this person's ego and pique..


Can we for a second think that it could be the DDM writing crap?

I think, There is nothing wrong in saying they need 20 aircrafts min to push it into training syllabus. They need enough numbers to fulfil the significantly high number of hours per batch and enough nos for entire batch or at least like half batch or so. They cannot mix and match it with Pilatus as the Trainees need to memorize cockpit of any aircraft before they can even sit in it. Having to deal with two types in stage 1 would be too much burdon. Hence IAF academy needs good number to boot and it makes sense to me at least. But I dont think that necessarily mean they will not take deliveries until 20 are made. IAF needs to train the trainers first. I think initial few deliveries will be used for that, till sizable inventory is built up.

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby JayS » 19 Sep 2019 15:52

We cannot compare Fighter Sq formation to a Trainer Squadron directly. A fighter needs much more work to be done on it and its a far far more complex system than a simple BTA. While the requirement on Trainer is to have enough numbers to cater to the steep requirement of number of flight hours per batch which is approx. 10000hrs per year for just the Hakimpet Flight Training institute of IAF (which I think is for BTA + Kiran together).

Casual look at internet tells me PC-7 deliveries started in Feb 2013 and ended in 42 month thereafter. That's 3.5yrs for 75 Aircrafts or ~20/yr rate. Its unrealistic to expect HAL to match the same given they have to ramp up from scratch and get the supply chain up to speed, whereas for Pilatus is was already done. However, given performance till date by team HTT-40, I think HAL could surprise us by finishing the order in 5 yrs.

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby srai » 19 Sep 2019 17:38

^^^
PC-7II timeline prior to first lot delivery
* selected in June 2011
* contract signed for 75 in May 2012
* first deliveries February 2013

They had active production lines for other customers at the time.

Likewise build time would be less for BTA compared to a fighter like the LCA. The initial production setup would take time though.

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby ashishvikas » 19 Sep 2019 18:08

From An old report of 2016,

HAL projects it will build the first two HTT-40 trainers in 2018, eight in 2019, and reach its capacity of 20 a year from 2020.

It seems, there was a plan of - 8 first year and then 20/yr from 2nd year own-wards.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/delhi/s ... 2016-06-17

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby fanne » 19 Sep 2019 19:21

My biggest concern is that IAF will order only 21.5 aircraft in first lot and would expect 20 to be delivered in a year, then some other 17.5 followed by 23.3 aircrafts, ...towards the total order of say 120 aircrafts. This will never allow to scale up production. HTT-40 will fail if that happens, but this trick is already in the playbook.
It gets compounded by the fact that HAL built and QA has been pathetic in the past (resulting in deaths for IAF, hence the mistrust). IAF was thinking of getting at least the trainer that was 100% reliable from offshore and done with it (as such at low cost and low tech, it does not bring us much strategic benefits, apart from bragging rights and FX savings....converse, being low tech and low cost, at least we should make it. I only pray that design is sound and it does not repeat Kiran's history of unpardonable loses.

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby Rakesh » 20 Sep 2019 02:51

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1170279005720694785 ---> The little lad has gone through an incredible journey and taken a lot of beating from us test pilots. The finish line is visible. It'll proudly wear the IAF emblem, someday soon.

Image

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby ramana » 20 Sep 2019 04:23

fanne wrote:My biggest concern is that IAF will order only 21.5 aircraft in first lot and would expect 20 to be delivered in a year, then some other 17.5 followed by 23.3 aircrafts, ...towards the total order of say 120 aircrafts. This will never allow to scale up production. HTT-40 will fail if that happens, but this trick is already in the playbook.
It gets compounded by the fact that HAL built and QA has been pathetic in the past (resulting in deaths for IAF, hence the mistrust). IAF was thinking of getting at least the trainer that was 100% reliable from offshore and done with it (as such at low cost and low tech, it does not bring us much strategic benefits, apart from bragging rights and FX savings....converse, being low tech and low cost, at least we should make it. I only pray that design is sound and it does not repeat Kiran's history of unpardonable loses.


It cuts down scams and bribes that plague every import aircraft.

BTW I read the initial requirement is 70 aircraft and not 60.

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby neerajb » 20 Sep 2019 09:43

Jayram wrote:
A few days ago, the aircraft successfully completed the six-turn spin (towards the right), recovering from an uncontrolled flight using conventional methods. “The next stage of trials will be critical as it involves testing the HTT-40’s spin behavior in the left direction, which is far more complicated,” the second official said.

I was curious as to why it would be different on the left and right. Turns out one of the reasons is the propeller direction has a effect on the spin rate with spin being more in the direction of the propeller spin. Here it is taken verbatim from a research paper "It was also noted that for a given fuel load, a spin to the
right is faster than to the left due to the yawing effect of the propeller."
From here
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/b9ad/e3fcce08e8645020e4ba3b2b2783f33f8470.pdf

More information required from Gurus here to definitely decide how much of a risk this is in the development of our nascent trainer.


It is due to p factor. When the aircraft is pitched up, for clockwise rotating prop, the right side propeller disk is producing more thrust than left side due to relatively more AOA. This effect is more pronounced during slow speed, high AOA and high power setting. AOA, as seen by prop, is reduced by high air speed and the yaw is less. This also decides the critical engine in twin engine configuration. For clockwise props, failure of left engine will produce more yaw as right engine's right disk which is farther from longitudinal axis of aircraft will produce more thrust.

Cheers....

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby Raghunathgb » 01 Oct 2019 11:24

News just in that #HTT40 completes Six-Turn Left Turn Spin. It's in line with expectations or slightly better than Right Turn Spin. Big achievement -- after 3 decades. Congrats to Team ARDC/HAL.

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/11 ... 15488?s=19

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby Bharadwaj » 01 Oct 2019 12:16

Raghunathgb wrote:News just in that #HTT40 completes Six-Turn Left Turn Spin. It's in line with expectations or slightly better than Right Turn Spin. Big achievement -- after 3 decades. Congrats to Team ARDC/HAL.

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/11 ... 15488?s=19


The confidence and capability of the new gen at HAL has to be lauded. Wasn't there some article recently quoting the usual unnamed source saying that the left spin will be more difficult blah blah blah

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby mody » 01 Oct 2019 17:25

Time for IAF and MoD to start the paperwork, for placing the order.

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby rrao » 01 Oct 2019 18:39

Raghunathgb wrote:News just in that #HTT40 completes Six-Turn Left Turn Spin. It's in line with expectations or slightly better than Right Turn Spin. Big achievement -- after 3 decades. Congrats to Team ARDC/HAL.

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/11 ... 15488?s=19


congrats to HAL Test pilots, director (D&E) Shri Arup Chatterji ,Design complex and his team of HTT-40 Engineers and technicians!! With the divine blessings of Late shri Parrikar!!!

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby Vivek K » 01 Oct 2019 20:25

Great work! HTT40 with IJT and LCA will form a small aerospace industry. Jai Ho!!

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby Indranil » 01 Oct 2019 23:16

Raghunathgb wrote:News just in that #HTT40 completes Six-Turn Left Turn Spin. It's in line with expectations or slightly better than Right Turn Spin. Big achievement -- after 3 decades. Congrats to Team ARDC/HAL.

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/11 ... 15488?s=19

This is what I had expected. Given the direction of the propeller spin, the right hand turn was supposed to be tougher. But IAF officers were saying the ulta. It confused me, so I kept my mouth shut.

Anyhow, the bird is ready for induction now.

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby srai » 02 Oct 2019 03:08

mody wrote:Time for IAF and MoD to start the paperwork, for placing the order.

What is “torturous” is the 11-step procurement process :-?

Let’s see if HAL starts partial serial production even before the final paper work comes through in 2-3 years.

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby Raghunathgb » 02 Oct 2019 10:13

Breaking news : Video of 6 spin turn released by HAL


Spinning, departure & high-alpha testing is invariably regarded as the most extreme experimental testing phase during certification of an aircraft. Smooth spin is a result of many optimizations & deep explorations into extreme edges of the envelope. Check link for video.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/11792 ... 36064?s=19

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby MeshaVishwas » 02 Oct 2019 10:17

Wow!
What a beauty!
Kudos to Team HTT40!

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby JayS » 02 Oct 2019 10:45

I had wished for video after last trials tagging HAL. My wish is fulfilled. :)

Lots of details in the video. Fr what I see, Is a right spin 6-turn trial. Spin entry with stick pulled back fully for stall and then right rudder for right turn. After 6-turns counted, anti-spin inputs (the plot says "opposite", and clear from the inputs themselves) - rudder towards left, sharp aileron for roll towards left (opposite to how its rolling in the spin) and stick to the neutral position.

Tuffs on the wing show when the stall/spin starts and when the aircraft is recovered. If they are all aligned nicely, its an attached flow, if they are moving in random directions then the wing is stalled.

HUD feed in shown with graphics showing aircraft attitude (I am guessing its done on the ground in a simulator which is reading the Flight Data Recorder after the trials are done).

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby Jayram » 02 Oct 2019 11:18

Great News ! One step at a time. Jai Ho!!

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby Cybaru » 02 Oct 2019 11:29

Frigging amazing!

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby RKumar » 02 Oct 2019 16:06

Another small step towards building a great nation!! Congrats to HAL!!

I hope IAF and MoD will order 38 as first step and later extend those number to 110 or more.

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby Indranil » 02 Oct 2019 17:00

Just how instantaneous and smooth was that recovery. I was just watching the tufts. I dont think I have seen the airflow reattach so instantaneously.

The plane also seems to have a stall warning.

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby manoj_niketa » 02 Oct 2019 20:03

JayS wrote:I had wished for video after last trials tagging HAL. My wish is fulfilled. :)

Lots of details in the video. Fr what I see, Is a right spin 6-turn trial. Spin entry with stick pulled back fully for stall and then right rudder for right turn. After 6-turns counted, anti-spin inputs (the plot says "opposite", and clear from the inputs themselves) - rudder towards left, sharp aileron for roll towards left (opposite to how its rolling in the spin) and stick to the neutral position.

Tuffs on the wing show when the stall/spin starts and when the aircraft is recovered. If they are all aligned nicely, its an attached flow, if they are moving in random directions then the wing is stalled.

HUD feed in shown with graphics showing aircraft attitude (I am guessing its done on the ground in a simulator which is reading the Flight Data Recorder after the trials are done).


Here is Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2cNVWDXGyQ

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby fanne » 02 Oct 2019 23:23

I think the outside view of the plane (middle bottom) was just simulation, it was not the real video. Rest inside etc was real

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby mody » 03 Oct 2019 15:03

RKumar wrote:Another small step towards building a great nation!! Congrats to HAL!!

I hope IAF and MoD will order 38 as first step and later extend those number to 110 or more.


Why start with a piece meal order? For the HTT-40 there is not going to be a whole lot of iterative development with MK2 and MK3 etc.
IAF and MoD should just order what the actual requirement is.

Originally IAF had projected a requirement of about 106-108 planes, with 38 of them coming from Pilatus, as a follow on order and the rest from HTT-40 as and when it would be available.
now, if the IAF wants to reduce the total requirement and order say 70 planes, then that is also fine. theer is no point in ordering 38 and then another follow on order of 38 3-4 years later. it will only increase the price and the vendors would not be too interested in small piece meal orders, after a rigerous development and testing cycle.

Personally without any knowledge of IAF training requirements, 145 basic trainers, seems to be a good enough number. If more are needed, no problem. Just order what is required in a single order to get the best price and delivery schedule.

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby JayS » 03 Oct 2019 16:53

First order will be of 70 for which some kind of approval is already in place, but AON is still not given. 36 from the Pilatus order should be clubbed with this and total order should be 106 to boot. 106 in 6 yrs with peak rate of 20/yr is reasonable (will not give HAL ramp down time, but they can perhaps try to sell it elsewhere).

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby RKumar » 03 Oct 2019 19:28

I dont think there is enough money to pay advance for 110, so just suggesting to split one big order into 2. Hoping it will not slow down the procurement process.

One thing is sure and proven if initiative and commitment is there a product can be developed.

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby JayS » 03 Oct 2019 19:42

RKumar wrote:I dont think there is enough money to pay advance for 110, so just suggesting to split one big order into 2. Hoping it will not slow down the procurement process.

One thing is sure and proven if initiative and commitment is there a product can be developed.


They can sign order and agree on amenable payment timelines no..?? Commitment on paper is the only commitment that matters in business. HAL can sustain itself, not its suppliers.

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby RKumar » 03 Oct 2019 19:51

Signing on a paper without money in the bank account means nothing. Funds has to be release so that the orders can be placed for the equipment, raw materials, signing further contracts with suppliers...

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby Kakarat » 03 Oct 2019 19:52

RKumar wrote:I dont think there is enough money to pay advance for 110, so just suggesting to split one big order into 2. Hoping it will not slow down the procurement process.

One thing is sure and proven if initiative and commitment is there a product can be developed.


If AON is issued today it will take atleast another year for contract & you think Indian Government does not have money even to pay advance for even 110 BTA (a domestic product) then we can forget orders for 83 Tejas, follow on Rafale and other big orders

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby vishvak » 03 Oct 2019 19:56

Well there maybe some meaning to release funds in parts in that let first batch be manufactured without much ho-hum and rush. Same for Tejas in that we may need seperately deal with exploring initial batches - opening up the envelope and what not. I am all for ordering world peace and 100 HTT-40 and 1000 LCA variants though just for the record.

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby Raghunathgb » 03 Oct 2019 20:56

vishvak wrote:Well there maybe some meaning to release funds in parts in that let first batch be manufactured without much ho-hum and rush. Same for Tejas in that we may need seperately deal with exploring initial batches - opening up the envelope and what not. I am all for ordering world peace and 100 HTT-40 and 1000 LCA variants though just for the record.


This logic only seem to apply on indigenous products.

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby srai » 04 Oct 2019 02:38

RKumar wrote:I dont think there is enough money to pay advance for 110, so just suggesting to split one big order into 2. Hoping it will not slow down the procurement process.

One thing is sure and proven if initiative and commitment is there a product can be developed.

When you mention “advance”, are you implying the whole deal (i.e. 110 units) being paid upfront? Typically, an advance means a partial down payment of sorts. It can be 5%, 10%, 20% etc. of the full contract. Enough to get the ball rolling so to speak; in this case, production activities can be initiated with suppliers and manufacturers with everyone paid their advances as well. All have salaries to pay their employees and materials to procure.

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby Indranil » 04 Oct 2019 04:43

vishvak wrote:Well there maybe some meaning to release funds in parts in that let first batch be manufactured without much ho-hum and rush.

Unfortunately, no ho hum and rush is different for the manufacturing industry, especially high-end products like aircrafts. No ho-hum actually translates directly to more price and low quality.

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby Raghunathgb » 04 Oct 2019 20:57

I think saurav jha is hinting at the weapons planned in for htt-40

Look forward to seeing an armed version of the HTT-40 firing 68 mm rockets at simulated targets during an exercise.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/118 ... 65376?s=19

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby Rakesh » 04 Oct 2019 22:01

Some awesome news.

https://twitter.com/pradiprsagar/status ... 7089651712 ---> Indigenous trainer HTT-40 designed and developed by HAL will certainly join IAF soon. We have cancelled program of 38 Pilatus trainer jets: IAF Chief.

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 1582994432 ----> BREAKING: The next induction of Basic Trainer for Indian Air Force will be the indigenous HTT-40 of HAL:Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria.

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby Kartik » 05 Oct 2019 03:31

This settles it. No need for more rona dhona on this thread. Now lets wait eagerly for FOC. ACM Bhadauria proves all of us who expected him to be a game-changer for indigenous industry to be right. Just look at the gist of his first press conference! His tenure could be one of the most memorable for us all.

SP's Aviation link

Amidst a string of announcements, Air Chief Marshal Bhadauria also declared that HAL's under-development HTT-40 will be the IAF's new first stage trainer, and that the earlier plan for a follow-on order for 38 Pilatus PC-7 trainers had been dropped. "The next trainer will be the HTT-40. It has done some spin trials. But we can't move to the next stage (to action procurement) until the tests are over, till the Final Operational Clearance," he qualified.

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby mody » 05 Oct 2019 17:47

Kartik wrote:This settles it. No need for more rona dhona on this thread. Now lets wait eagerly for FOC. ACM Bhadauria proves all of us who expected him to be a game-changer for indigenous industry to be right. Just look at the gist of his first press conference! His tenure could be one of the most memorable for us all.



For BTA there is not FoC. IOC is good enough. Should get done by December end and hopefully order placed in the next financial year or by March end, if GOI wants to show off a large order book for HAL.

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby Kartik » 08 Nov 2019 03:36

Twitter link

Image

On his maiden visit to #Bangalore after taking over as CAS, Air Chief Marshal R K S Bhadauria is slated to fly #HAL's #HTT40 'most likely' on Nov 14. The ever-inspiring Team ARDC couldn't have asked for more! And, @manoharparrikar
will be a happy man too. @akananth
@Onmanorama

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby Rakesh » 12 Nov 2019 23:16

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/119 ... 86305?s=21 —> 6 years after the then IAF chief NAK Browne said the air force ‘doesn’t want or need’ HAL’s HTT-40, current IAF chief ACM Bhadauria to cement commitment to trainer program by flying in a HTT-40 prototype on Nov 14. Post coming up.


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