Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
manjgu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2119
Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby manjgu » 26 Oct 2019 07:51

I think Harish's comment on low loadout on Mig29 has to be read in the context of the fact that Mig29 cant stay in air for long durations..so it does not need to go battle with lots of missiles. the context is important. as he himself says, the average flt was less than 30 min...

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7770
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Indranil » 26 Oct 2019 08:28

Manjgu ji,

The Mig29k had smaller fuel fraction as it was designed as Russia light fighter. But with UPG that problem is solved.

If you take ANY fighter, the amount of time that the fighter can fly with AB at the theater is between 10-20 minutes. Assuming 20 minutes or so for ingress or egress. This includes the Rafales, su 30s, EF, f22, f35 etc.

And it is not just fuel, the pilots cannot take sustained Gs for so long. Even with the "hick" procedures, a pilot can hardly sustain 9Gs for 25-30 seconds at a time. Lesser Gs for slightly longer. A 10-15 minutes of high intensity aerobatics is typically at the verge of human tolerance.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 23758
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby SSridhar » 26 Oct 2019 16:11

nachiket wrote:Pakis bought 500 AMRAAMs in one deal around 2007 or thereabouts. That is for less than 100 F-16s. Not sure if they bought any more after that. They have plenty to spare for sure looking at how many they fired in one engagement.

Yes, the US supplied following items under MNNA status to fight 'terrorists' - how many of them eventually came through is a moot point.

250 Armour piercing TOW 2A Anti-tank missiles, Excalibur Precision Guided Munitions (PGMs), eight Aerostat radars, six AN-TPS77 surveillance radar, 5600 military radio sets, 500 AMRAAM air-to-air missiles, 200 AIM-9M Sidewinder missiles, 36 F-16 Block 52s, mid-life upgrade to 34 existing F-16 A/Bs to C/D block 50/52, ALQ-211 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) pod for their F-16s to detect radar, jamming and laser signals hitting the aircraft, 8 P-3C maritime reconnaissance aircraft, mid-life upgrade to existing P-3 fleet, modernization of the Shahbaz Airbase (Jacobabad), 26 Bell 412 helicopters, 39 T-37 military trainer jets, 150 submarine/surface/air launched Harpoon Block II missiles, six Phalanx Close In Weapon Systems (CIWS) for the Navy, five refurbished SH-2I Super Seasprite maritime helicopters

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11309
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 26 Oct 2019 17:45

What about flight, some of those Amraams would have flown out their operational lives especially in March 19

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18661
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 26 Oct 2019 18:00

manjgu wrote:I think Harish's comment on low loadout on Mig29 has to be read in the context of the fact that Mig29 cant stay in air for long durations..so it does not need to go battle with lots of missiles. the context is important. as he himself says, the average flt was less than 30 min...


Yes, true. The MiG-29 was designed to be a GCI run, point defense interceptor. It would rapidly climb to a stated position, fire its armament, and return, with data fed by the Lazur datalink. AM Masand's praise of the MiG-29 apart, neutral folks who evaluated the aircraft (neutral as in, flew multiple aircraft types) severely criticized many of its onboard systems including its cluttered cockpit, time taken for standard tasks (eg locking up a target, firing a BVR missile, evaluating its success and so forth). Ironically, the Su-27/30K were supposed to be far far better. And this is what a Su-30 MKI pilot says about the Su-30K.
The avionics package, information presentation was rudimentary and presented great challenges as an operator

So, several of AM Masands points would be contentious for many peers who flew more advanced types and hence saw what the new platforms brought to the table in terms of performance, sensors and weapons. Similarly, today's AF evaluators would be privy to far more classified information in the era of advanced ECM and highly maneuverable aircraft with care-free handling/FBW. They too would have a different take on some topics, like the missile payload etc.

manjgu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2119
Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby manjgu » 26 Oct 2019 20:23

Karan M... i think to be fair to Masand, he retired in 2005/6 and his active fighter flying days would have ended atleast a decade or maybe decade and half before his retirement. . What may be fine in 1995/6 could be rudimentary in current times. its important not to lose focus of the context. and he was v honest admitting that he never participated in excercises with foreign AF's ..so his comments have to read in context of what he saw/flew.

fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3097
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby fanne » 26 Oct 2019 20:27

Does anyone know if Mig 29 UPG also includes fly by wire upgrade? (Mig 29 K have them)

Bala Vignesh
BRFite
Posts: 1999
Joined: 30 Apr 2009 02:02
Location: Standing at the edge of the cliff
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Bala Vignesh » 26 Oct 2019 23:48

fanne wrote:Does anyone know if Mig 29 UPG also includes fly by wire upgrade? (Mig 29 K have them)


Open source data doesn't indicate the addition of a FBW system as part of the UPG package .

tandav
BRFite
Posts: 442
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 08:24

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby tandav » 27 Oct 2019 00:12

srai wrote:One of the keys of munitions inventory is active domestic production lines. A continued rate production plus a reserve capacity to scale up when necessary.

Bean-counting is more appropriate for purely imported munitions and platforms :twisted:


This is where I worry that PLAAF will have a massive upper hand, its their ability to build own stuff and shoot many more AAMs than the IAF can in a shooting war.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7227
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 29 Oct 2019 01:53

Karan M wrote:Yes, true. The MiG-29 was designed to be a GCI run, point defense interceptor. It would rapidly climb to a stated position, fire its armament, and return, with data fed by the Lazur datalink. AM Masand's praise of the MiG-29 apart, neutral folks who evaluated the aircraft (neutral as in, flew multiple aircraft types) severely criticized many of its onboard systems including its cluttered cockpit, time taken for standard tasks (eg locking up a target, firing a BVR missile, evaluating its success and so forth). Ironically, the Su-27/30K were supposed to be far far better.

Not sure about that. Looking at cockpit images, the original Su-27 and Mig-29 cockpits seem fairly similar. There is the single CRT screen (Head Down Display) on the top right which doubles up as the Lazur Datalink display. The RWR is somewhat below that. This is the regular Russian RWR display which is not a screen but basically an outline of a Mig-21esque airframe with different colored lights and indicators surrounding it giving you the location and distance of threats. It was quite primitive compared to the US/NATO RWR displays which provided you a lot more information on a screen.

Radar contacts were shown on the HUD itself IIRC. There was no separate screen for it. Cycling through targets, getting a radar lock, changing modes etc. was all accomplished using the HUD. Don't know if the original 70's and 80's era F-15's could do that. They had a separate screen for the radar display. A primitive version of sensor fusion on the Flankers and Fulcrums maybe out of necessity to save the cost of one more display. :mrgreen: Info from the OLS EO sensor also got displayed on the HUD.

Both the Su-27 and Mig-29 had the same layout pretty much but the Su-27 radar must have been better I'm sure. The 30K had a second cockpit. I don't know what instruments the rear cockpit had. Might have given it a leg up on the 29. If nothing else, at least a second pilot to divide the workload.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18661
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 29 Oct 2019 09:17

Dont go by the layout alone. The N001 was a more powerful set than the N019, with better processing and more autonomy. The N001 operated in an autonomous mode, it sorted targets based on speed, distance, prioritized them and the data was constantly updated. Most importantly, it retained target information when you locked on for SARH launch. For its intent, purpose it was a fairly reasonable set.
The mission, weapon computing set for the MiG29 was far more rudimentary. You really needed the Lazur datalink information, as when you locked on for SARH, the rest of the information disappeared in the first variants. Then, the weapons, the MiG29 was usually carrying the R27R/T while the Su27 moved to the long burn ER/ET. Basically, the Su27 WCS benefited from a more powerful, then state of the art Russisn computing system, they simply didnt invest the same for the MiG29. Plus it had 4 channel analog FBW as versus pure hydraulic controls than the MiG29. Crisper controls.
The sensor fusion via the TsVM system on the Su27 et al was deliberate, they developed a specific computer for the purpose. But better fusion with a combined display on the screen is only available with the Su35. As far as I remember, the Su27 had a better navigational system as well, as it was intended to range further.

Manish_P
BRFite
Posts: 1978
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 30 Oct 2019 12:42

A new hushkit i-view folks.

Flying & Fighting in the MiG-21: Interview with Group Captain MJA Vinod

What is the best thing about it?
“It’s a completely a manual aeroplane, with very simple systems. If one masters it, this aircraft can manoeuvre better than most modern aircraft, provided it is flown by someone who has mastered the aircraft.”

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 30 Oct 2019 14:05

^^^
Good interview

In air combat with a MiG-29, who would have the advantage and why?

“Like I have said before, the MiG-21 is a pure manual fighter. She fights beautifully in the vertical plane, that’s why instantaneous and sustained turn rates aren’t relevant fighting a MiG-21. Vertically down or up, she can turn and catch any fighter at rates more than 90degs a second. I once flew a DACT mission against two MiG-29s, I didn’t engage them in a turning fight. I kept my fight vertical and got two kills. The deal with the MiG-21 is you cannot pitch your weakness against enemy’s strength. The MiG-21 fights well in the vertical plane and one shouldn’t be reluctant to use its vertical plane to fight.”

How would it perform in within-visual-range combat against a Hunter?

“I may be only few who flew against a Hunter and a Harrier. I must tell you this, in a low speed fight both these fighters will spin web around a MiG-21. MiG-21’s strength is in its speed, so the deal is keeping your speed high take them on in the vertical. Both will fall out of the sky, that is the time to pick them from top, like a hawk picking it pray from above.”

Hawker Hunter versus MiG-21

“This sortie was flown when Hunters were towing the target for us for air-to-air firing. Having finished the requisite numbers of missions, my CO decided to fly against a Hunter. The Hunter in turned around and scored a kill. A repeat manoeuvre was the same story. One couldn’t outmanoeuvre a Hunter in a turning fight, but the Hunter was a subsonic aircraft and beyond a particular speed she just wouldn’t accelerate. The key was to create separation from the Hunter and come from top, like a hawk.”

Sea Harrier versus MiG-21

“The story is similar with the Sea Harrier. The Sea Harrier does something called a VIFF (vectoring in forward flight) where she would turn around like a top in turning fight. Our seniors told us do not engage a harrier in a turning fight. Seduce him to go vertical then you can have him, post VIFFing she would take a long time to accelerate, that is the time to catch him. That’s what we did with the Harrier, let him fall out of the sky and pick him. If you aren’t careful, the Harrier would have you, fair and square.

At the end of the day, at the cost of repetition I say this: it is your ‘sang froid’, mastery of the machine, situational awareness and knowledge of the enemy aircraft. These is the sure recipe for a successful outcome in air combat.”


fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3097
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby fanne » 30 Oct 2019 17:49

Is it me or it looks like someone is fishing for operational (historical or old, but operational) tactics and details? All of these planes are still relevant for IAF.
Nice details though, information that I did not know (or perhaps do not have to know).

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7770
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Indranil » 31 Oct 2019 05:00

Don't worry, the pilots know what to say. He has said nothing that is not widely known.

Clearly, the pilot in question is one of the best in class. These kind of pilots are rare these days. They understood their machines way better than most modern fighter pilots do. There was no other option. There were no safety nets, aids or sensor fusion. Their planning was way more meticulous. I have heard older pilots fondly saying that flying a modern aircraft is like "cheating".

But, I don't agree with somethings and don't understand some others:

1. Reaching the top of the climb with your gear down is not a testament to the plane. On contrary, it shows how involved flying such an aircraft could be. Landing gears on a high performance aircraft is like airbrakes. How can one miss it?
2. How does an aircraft turn at 90 degrees per second in the vertical (without TVC)?
3. The flight restrictions of most FBW fighters are at the end of the flight envelop. There is barely any envelop left, may be a couple of degrees of AoA and less than 10 knots of speed. I don't EF's FBW that well, but I know LCA's FBW limits pretty well. LCA has been flight tested below 110 knots and cleared for 115 knots. F-18, GRipen etc. are all cleared for around the same speed. Rafale is cleared for 100 knots (during displays). I can't believe EF will be too far behind. How can a EF shoot past the Mig-21 in a slow speed flight?
4. If Mig-21 is indeed fly slower than an EF in level flight, why does it have such high landing speeds?

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7770
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Indranil » 31 Oct 2019 05:09

And most important of all, would some one help me debunk the fallacy that Kiran is an Indian version of the British Provost. Chris wrote that Kiran was inspired by the Provost which I do not know if it is true or not. But, there is a big difference between being inspired to Kiran being an Indian version of the Provost. Do we have any evidence to the same. Did HAL designers receive any consultancy because the we did not operate the Provost!

To an untrained eye the Boeing and the Airbus aircraft of the same class look the same, but they were designed completely differently. In the case of the Kiran and the Provost, the differences are even more severe. If you put two pilots abreast with a single engine, the fuselage will have a shape. But, that's that. Nothing else is similar: The wing is different. Both in shape and airfoil. The tail is not the same! The inlets are not the same? How can these designs be inspired from one another.

If we can, I would like to rebutt that line on Wikipedia with facts. Otherwise, even our very own airforce pilots will keep robbing our designers of their rightful credits!

Image

Image

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7227
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 31 Oct 2019 05:28

Indranil wrote:And most important of all, would some one help me debunk the fallacy that Kiran is an Indian version of the British Provost. Chris wrote that Kiran was inspired by the Provost which I do not know if it is true or not. But, there is a big difference between being inspired to Kiran being an Indian version of the Provost. Do we have any evidence to the same. Did HAL designers receive any consultancy because the we did not operate the Provost!

To an untrained eye the Boeing and the Airbus aircraft of the same class look the same, but they were designed completely differently. In the case of the Kiran and the Provost, the differences are even more severe. If you put two pilots abreast with a single engine, the fuselage will have a shape. But, that's that. Nothing else is similar: The wing is different. Both in shape and airfoil. The tail is not the same! The inlets are not the same? How can these designs be inspired from one another.

If we can, I would like to rebutt that line on Wikipedia with facts. Otherwise, even our very own airforce pilots will keep robbing our designers of their rightful credits!


Also see how Chris Smith's declaration that the Kiran's design was inspired by the Provost (which itself he probably pulled out of his musharraf) has now been changed to "Kiran is an Indian version of the Provost! :eek: " which to most would mean that HAL bought some Provosts, modified the design a little and built it as the Kiran.

Problem about refuting it is the original statement is made without any facts presumably. You will not have any documentary evidence that HAL was not inspired by the Provost for the same reason that there is no documentary evidence that the Eurofighter designers were not inspired by General Dynamics and their F-16 (intakes under the chin!! Same to same!). Both statements are equally preposterous. But in the case of the Kiran it is made by a gora sahib while the latter is made by poor old me.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7770
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Indranil » 31 Oct 2019 05:31

And that's why I want to debunk this (if it is nonsense).

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7227
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 31 Oct 2019 05:34

How would you do that? Only HAL can come out and state for the record that Chris Smith was high on Afghanistan's finest when he wrote that. But they don't even care to correct misconceptions about the LCA. Why would they care about a long out of production product?

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18661
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 31 Oct 2019 06:07

Indranil wrote:2. How does an aircraft turn at 90 degrees per second in the vertical (without TVC)?


I think he meant it literally goes vertical right out of the bat. So that's where the 90 degrees comes from.

3. The flight restrictions of most FBW fighters are at the end of the flight envelop. There is barely any envelop left, may be a couple of degrees of AoA and less than 10 knots of speed. I don't EF's FBW that well, but I know LCA's FBW limits pretty well. LCA has been flight tested below 110 knots and cleared for 115 knots. F-18, GRipen etc. are all cleared for around the same speed. Rafale is cleared for 100 knots (during displays). I can't believe EF will be too far behind. How can a EF shoot past the Mig-21 in a slow speed flight?


He basically tricked the younger pilot and went high-alpha, bleeding off his airspeed is my guess.

4. If Mig-21 is indeed fly slower than an EF in level flight, why does it have such high landing speeds?


It wasn't a level flight, he took the MiG-21 to the edge of its envelop, then likely added alpha.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7770
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Indranil » 31 Oct 2019 06:23

nachiket wrote:How would you do that? Only HAL can come out and state for the record that Chris Smith was high on Afghanistan's finest when he wrote that. But they don't even care to correct misconceptions about the LCA. Why would they care about a long out of production product?

I will do it. It will need me to dig deeper. I have already found out that
1. It was an independent ab-initio solo design by an all Indian team led by Dr. Ghatage (an Indian designer who never got his due).
2. It was designed to IAF's ASQR which asked for side by side seating! The Kirans were to replace the Vampire trainers which had side-by-side seating.
3. Because the design was all inhouse all the upgrades were very fast: less than 5 years from funding to delivery in both cases. Mk1->Mk1A and Mk1A->Mk2 (inspite of an engine change).
4. They chose the derated Orpheous because of commonality with Gnat and Ajeet.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7770
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Indranil » 31 Oct 2019 06:32

Karan M wrote:
Indranil wrote:2. How does an aircraft turn at 90 degrees per second in the vertical (without TVC)?


I think he meant it literally goes vertical right out of the bat. So that's where the 90 degrees comes from.

He said this:
Vertically down or up, she can turn and catch any fighter at rates more than 90degs a second.


Karan M wrote:
3. The flight restrictions of most FBW fighters are at the end of the flight envelop. There is barely any envelop left, may be a couple of degrees of AoA and less than 10 knots of speed. I don't EF's FBW that well, but I know LCA's FBW limits pretty well. LCA has been flight tested below 110 knots and cleared for 115 knots. F-18, GRipen etc. are all cleared for around the same speed. Rafale is cleared for 100 knots (during displays). I can't believe EF will be too far behind. How can a EF shoot past the Mig-21 in a slow speed flight?


He basically tricked the younger pilot and went high-alpha, bleeding off his airspeed is my guess.

May be. That is possible. But, then his claim is not correct. All that Mig-21 pilot could say is that he can surprise somebody with sudden bleed-off. But so can the others. EF, Rafale, Gripen, LCA are all designed to use their wings as airbrakes (because they are delta wings). There is nothing new about the Mig-21 in this respect. If anything, all of the former are statically unstable and have active leading edge devices which allow them to do the maneuver faster and sharper than the Mig-21. If the Mig-21 was chasing and the EF-pilot suddenly pulled back, the Mig-21 would shoot past. What is the claim here?

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18661
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 31 Oct 2019 06:49

I think he is speaking of instantaneous pitch rate in the former.

Second, apparently the MiG21 is great at low speeds. It wasnt an alpha maneuver as i thought.
https://www.slideshare.net/mishanbgd/mi ... days-terms

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20162
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 31 Oct 2019 08:07

I get the impression that these combat titbits relate to WVR dogfighting.It would be interesting to find out how the " kills" were made.With guns or WVR AAMs.

Manish_P
BRFite
Posts: 1978
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 31 Oct 2019 11:08

Another nice little gem from the folks at Hush-kit. Do read folks.

How they would deceive the mighty MiG 21s, Internal Weapons Bay and more ... :)

Flying & fighting in the HAL HF-24 Marut: Interview with IAF pilot Vijainder K Thakur

What is the greatest myth about the Marut?

“That the aircraft didn’t meet expectations. The aircraft met expectations, the project didn’t! Because MoD never put into the aircraft the engines that the aircraft was built for.

When I was posted from Maruts to Jaguars in 1981 it dawned on me how hopelessly doomed the Marut had become. Aviation technology had moved so far ahead while HAL had struggled to fix Marut manufacturing shortcomings.

The future doesn’t depend on what you do today. It depends on what you did yesterday. What you do today depends on the follow-up required on what you did yesterday. How long could the aircraft remain relevant with the 1952 vintage Orpheus 703 interim engine?”



And therein lies the sad truth... :(

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7699
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby rohitvats » 31 Oct 2019 14:07

On the Marut manufacturing - When Dr Kurt Tank came to India, he brought with him his core team, most of whom stayed with him. Guess which guys did not stay? The one who's expertise was in production!

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4609
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 31 Oct 2019 23:10

fanne wrote:Does anyone know if Mig 29 UPG also includes fly by wire upgrade? (Mig 29 K have them)


yes it does. The KSU-941 digital FBW system on the MiG-29K is also re-used on the MiG-29UPG. Confirmed by Piotr Butowski.

LakshmanPST
BRFite
Posts: 119
Joined: 05 Apr 2019 18:23

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby LakshmanPST » 01 Nov 2019 10:38

Mig 27 jets which played crucial role in Kargil war to bid farewell in December
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/m ... 2019-10-31

MIG 27 fighter jets, which played a crucial role for the Indian Air Force (IAF) in the Kargil War, will take their last flight from Rajasthan's Jodhpur in December this year.

The last Squadron of MIG 27, 29 Scorpio, is based in Rajasthan's Jodhpur.

All the MIG 27 fighter aircraft in the Squadron will take their last flight in December this year after which they will be phased out.

An official source informed India Today TV that during an official ceremony in Jodhpur, scheduled for December 27 this year, these fighter aircraft will take their last flight.

The MIG 27 was inducted in the Indian Air Force in 1981 and after serving for 38 years, they will be decommissioned.

Three years ago, two squadrons of MIG 27 were phased out in Bengal's Hashimara and Squadron 29 is the last remaining Squadron of MIG 27 in the country, based in Jodhpur.

The MIG 27s have been involved in several incidents of crashes in the last decade.
Last edited by LakshmanPST on 01 Nov 2019 11:06, edited 1 time in total.

LakshmanPST
BRFite
Posts: 119
Joined: 05 Apr 2019 18:23

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby LakshmanPST » 01 Nov 2019 10:43

^^^Didn't expect this news... They were inducted in late 1980s... I thought MIG 27 will be flying until 2025-30...

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11309
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 01 Nov 2019 11:18

Does this include the 2 upgraded squadrons of Mig 27's or is the last of the non upgraded squadrons being retired?

LakshmanPST
BRFite
Posts: 119
Joined: 05 Apr 2019 18:23

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby LakshmanPST » 01 Nov 2019 11:53

Aditya_V wrote:Does this include the 2 upgraded squadrons of Mig 27's or is the last of the non upgraded squadrons being retired?


IAF retired last MIG 27 ML in December 2017... After that only 2 squadrons of MIG 27 UPG are in operation based in Jodhpur... Not sure IAF operates any other version...

All googling I have done is telling the same thing, that IAF operates only 2 Squadrons of MIG 27 UPG from Jodhpur...

However, I think Jodhpur also has No. 10 Squadron operating MIG 27 UPGs... But the article only talks about No. 29 Squadron...

Bala Vignesh
BRFite
Posts: 1999
Joined: 30 Apr 2009 02:02
Location: Standing at the edge of the cliff
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Bala Vignesh » 01 Nov 2019 12:05

The article states that the last active squadron of MiG27 UPG is 29 Scorpio. That would mean that 10 squadron has already been number-plated.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11309
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 01 Nov 2019 12:32

So I guess the unique and unreliable engine, short radius of action, with the advent of manpads making the use of GSH30-6 cannon reduntant, I guess the IAF had deceided against keeping these in the fleet.

Now it is left 3 Mig 29UPG, 5 Mig 21 Bisons, 6 Jaguars, 3 M-2000, 1 Tejas IOC, 12.5-13 Su-30 MKI around 30-31 squadrons, hopefully in the next 1.5 years 1 Tejas FOC, 1 MIG 20UPG, 1 Rafale and 1 Su 30 MKI push things up a bit.

LakshmanPST
BRFite
Posts: 119
Joined: 05 Apr 2019 18:23

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby LakshmanPST » 01 Nov 2019 15:58

I know it is IAF's decision, and they obviously know what they're doing... But I have a doubt...
----
The latest MIG 27s were inducted after 1986... They're around 30 years old... I guess they have few more years left in their airframe life...
The canon may have become redundant, but why can't they use the jets for other roles... When the squadron strength is low, can't they continue operating it for another 5-6 years as a Strike aircraft just to maintain nos....?

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11309
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 01 Nov 2019 16:33

But the safety record of the Mig 27 was pretty low and it many parts in common with the Mig-23's, IAF must have been struggling for spare parts and must have decided it is better to retire them.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2805
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby tsarkar » 01 Nov 2019 18:58

LakshmanPST wrote:can't they continue operating it for another 5-6 years as a Strike aircraft just to maintain nos....?

Engine spares unavailable from OEM. The Sea Harrier was decommissioned for same reason. Both types had undergone extensive avionics upgrades that are completely going waste.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11309
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 01 Nov 2019 19:02

Another pointer why this MMRCA is bad idea , any aircraft procured will inevitably run out of parts by 2045-50., less than 25 years from induction.

vishvak
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5557
Joined: 12 Aug 2011 21:19

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby vishvak » 01 Nov 2019 19:25

Aditya_V wrote:Another pointer why this MMRCA is bad idea , any aircraft procured will inevitably run out of parts by 2045-50., less than 25 years from induction.

Not to overlook the fact that dissolution of USSR played a role there, won't be same onwards. Another suggestion is to keep one squadron on LCA aside and disperse other LCA to divide workload.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4609
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 02 Nov 2019 00:22

Aditya_V wrote:Does this include the 2 upgraded squadrons of Mig 27's or is the last of the non upgraded squadrons being retired?


There are no MiG-27ML squadrons left. They were retired earlier itself with No.22 'Swifts' being numberplated in December 2017. The IAF now has 2 MiG-27 UPG squadrons that remain in service. These are the last remaining MiG-27s in service anywhere in the world, AFAIK. It's time to bid farewell to the jet type with the worst attrition record (per 10,000 hrs of flying) in the IAF.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4609
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 02 Nov 2019 00:26

Bala Vignesh wrote:The article states that the last active squadron of MiG27 UPG is 29 Scorpio. That would mean that 10 squadron has already been number-plated.


DDM can't get a single article on defence right without typos or outright errors. It's No.29 'Scorpions' not 'Scorpio'.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: chiru and 58 guests