MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby manjgu » 16 Dec 2019 10:35

Shanmukh. .i think the vid in question was from across the loc...

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Shanmukh » 16 Dec 2019 10:45

manjgu wrote:Shanmukh. .i think the vid in question was from across the loc...


Nowshera is in India. But assuming that they are referring to across the border, it still does not mention Hindko. Hindko is only in the Neelum valley region - that is in Kashmir. In Azad Jammu, the languages are Mirpuri and Pahari - both close to Punjabi.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby manjgu » 16 Dec 2019 11:13

Hindko and punjabi are mutually intelligible. ... its twisted punjabi onlee ... like hindi and bhojpurine imho

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Shanmukh » 16 Dec 2019 11:35

manjgu wrote:Hindko and punjabi are mutually intelligible. ... its twisted punjabi onlee ... like hindi and bhojpurine imho


Hindko is supposedly Pashto heavy. However, it does not change anything about the previous. Christine Fair is still cooking up stories about the people of Nowshera speaking Hindko, not Punjabi.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby yensoy » 16 Dec 2019 12:11

Shanmukh wrote:
manjgu wrote:1) on the punjabi and hindko issue in the vid.


If we are speaking of Nowshera in J&K, Christine Fair is confused and wrong. In Nowshera, the languages spoken are Pahari and Dogri, not Hindko. In fact, the Indian census of 2011 does not even mention Hindko as being spoken in the area. There are a lot of refugees from W Punjab settled in the area, and I won't be surprised if the lingua-franca of the region is Punjabi.


That's what the elderly Brig Major was trying to say, although he didn't necessarily need to ask Dr Fair if she understood (and she didn't need to react the way she did - she doesn't understand the subcontinental culture to know that age trumps other indignations).

Of all the points cited by Dr Fair, this one was the lamest. We have people speaking all sorts of languages all over India. If 2 friends are together and one isn't a native speaker of Hindko, guess what both will be speaking Hindi/Punjabi. One can't dismiss a video based on such a technicality - they weren't speaking Tamil and even if they did it would be happenstance.

Also the point about Colin Powell. "Our general lied, so yours probably did too."

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 16 Dec 2019 13:05

"That's what the elderly Brig Major was trying to say, although he didn't necessarily need to ask Dr Fair if she understood (and she didn't need to react the way she did - she doesn't understand the subcontinental culture to know that age trumps other indignations)."


He was a Brigadier Major. He retired as a Lt General in the Indian Army and is 80+ years old. Fair is just nuts.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 16 Dec 2019 13:10

Kit, *none* of your examples have Pakistan fielding technology superior to what India possesses, to the degree it becomes some kind of war winning advantage.

That was what Shri Rishi postulated. Look forward to his answer.

Further:
Indian procurement times have improved but not to that extent of actual orders!


is also completely mistaken.

In the past few years India has:
Ordered multiple classes of PGMs, AAMs, fighters, SAMs, radars, EW, ships.. in fact the list is so huge there's little point in typing it out.

In almost each and every case, our acquisition is superior to what Pakistan has.

kit wrote:I think they were referring to the requirement identification to procurement time , the pakis seem to be nimbler in identifying and finding relatively low cost options.,

eg : purchase of 8 Chinese subs that will come online within a few years (wonder if they pay for that ?!)
more F16s dirt cheap
building their bandars locally
getting the chinks to install meter band radars to detect "stealth" Indian fighters
getting Turkish companies to build components for tanks and artillery (wonder why not Chinese)
Improving ballistic missile telemetry using Chinese telescopes
Tactical radars and SAMs china again for Indian border
More frigates for PN ?3
All the while improving their reprocessing capability more than twice
Getting more of the AEW&Cs
More Orions ? ( not sure if uncle agreed)

Most of the above happened within a span of 5 years

Indian procurement times have improved but not to that extent of actual orders!
Also Paki is the master of getting freebies

Happy to be corrected !

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Shanmukh » 16 Dec 2019 13:27

Karan M wrote:
"That's what the elderly Brig Major was trying to say, although he didn't necessarily need to ask Dr Fair if she understood (and she didn't need to react the way she did - she doesn't understand the subcontinental culture to know that age trumps other indignations)."


He was a Brigadier Major. He retired as a Lt General in the Indian Army and is 80+ years old. Fair is just nuts.


Nowshera [well, the old Bhimber tehsil] is the Pahari-Punjabi [well, Mirpuri, but it is a Punjabi dialect all the same] area, not a Hindko area. Where on earth did Fair get the idea that the region is Hindko? In fact, I just looked up the 1931 and 1941 census. Neither mentions Hindko being spoken in the Nowshera area. Fair is not only rude, but also a liar.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Bala Vignesh » 16 Dec 2019 13:35

Karan M wrote:
"That's what the elderly Brig Major was trying to say, although he didn't necessarily need to ask Dr Fair if she understood (and she didn't need to react the way she did - she doesn't understand the subcontinental culture to know that age trumps other indignations)."


He was a Brigadier Major. He retired as a Lt General in the Indian Army and is 80+ years old. Fair is just nuts.

Brigade Major is a position not a rank, afaik. It's supposed to be a staff officer responsible for the operations section of the whole brigade.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Bala Vignesh » 16 Dec 2019 13:51

yensoy wrote:
That's what the elderly Brig Major was trying to say, although he didn't necessarily need to ask Dr Fair if she understood (and she didn't need to react the way she did - she doesn't understand the subcontinental culture to know that age trumps other indignations).

Of all the points cited by Dr Fair, this one was the lamest. We have people speaking all sorts of languages all over India. If 2 friends are together and one isn't a native speaker of Hindko, guess what both will be speaking Hindi/Punjabi. One can't dismiss a video based on such a technicality - they weren't speaking Tamil and even if they did it would be happenstance.

Also the point about Colin Powell. "Our general lied, so yours probably did too."


I believe here intention was to cast aspersions on the OSINT analysis of the data which proves that that F16 was indeed shot down, for reasosn known only to her. All her points were too hollow to stand analysis, imo, but were strong enough to cast a doubt on the data that was being presented on Op Swift retort and it's root cause.

A true scholar wouldn't have talked the way she did.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Aditya_V » 16 Dec 2019 14:50

A shoot down by a Mig 21 is bad PR for LM F-16

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Prem Kumar » 16 Dec 2019 15:00

<POOF>
Last edited by hnair on 16 Dec 2019 16:40, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Warning issued: Stop dragging in "Hindus are weak" into any argument where you feel you dont have anything to contribute

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby mahadevbhu » 16 Dec 2019 15:45

Moderator note:

Warning given for an incredibly tone deaf post.

You were already informed that ample evidence already exists in this thread, and its best you spend some effort reading it instead of posting the same tone deaf propaganda again and again, and then proceeding to pompously proclaim what the forum should and should not do.
Last edited by mahadevbhu on 16 Dec 2019 18:43, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ArjunPandit » 16 Dec 2019 15:59

One thing that everyone is missing here is the acrimony she indicated between US and Pakistan guys..'her point was that why didnt you get 10 F16s' was quite prophetic. To me the key takeaway is that IAF needs to go in full glory and make pakistanis wet themselves...and inflict heavy losses...I am sure we can handle their retaliations in all cases...but a big danda is necessary to show pakistan their places

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nam » 16 Dec 2019 16:09

It is not IAF who decides to if we need to go in to down 10 F16s. It might make for brownie points, however we don't meet any objectives by downing 10 F16s.

Our objective was to let PA know, we will retaliate for terror attacks. We are not interested in fist fights with what is fundamentally a failed nation.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby yensoy » 16 Dec 2019 21:46

One point which puzzled me was why when the Su-30s were within 30km of the F-16s they didn't try to shoot them down. The F-16s, according to Sameer Joshi, had let loose several AMRAAMS, so they were legit targets. The Su-30s managed to evade the AMRAAMS - great - but why didn't they lock a couple of F-16s and kill them?

As has been discussed here, it appears that the Su-30s had a height advantage explaining how they were close in but out of reach. They could have nosed down and hit a couple of F-16s, do you think?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Zynda » 16 Dec 2019 22:06

Think its the other way around. F-16s had the height advantage and R-77s had to climb. Karan has posted a R-77 envelope plot against a non-maneuvering target. I think against a fighter, with missile having to climb and chase, the envelope reduces further.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nam » 16 Dec 2019 23:13

30-40KM is enough for a target to turn back and escape the incoming BVR.

The easiest way is turn back and go up..

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby manjgu » 16 Dec 2019 23:22

Whoever shoots first has a v big advantage in bvr.. the f16 let loose their mizziles and forced evasive action from su ... the f 16 turned tail and then su recovers from evasive action and tries to counter attack with probably a height disadvantage and f 16 escaping at high speeds ... and with su not cleared to cross loc ..the options were v limited and so rightly the su did not fire it's missiles. .. the q which comes to my mind is the iaf reaction if indeed a su had been hit inside indian air space??

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nam » 17 Dec 2019 01:38

PAF deliberately went deep inside POK. The objective was to ambush IAF jets inside PoK, like the Mig21.

They fired at our posts and tried to set up a trap inside PoK. That was one of the reason IAF pilots were refrained from crossing LC.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nam » 17 Dec 2019 01:43

I wonder if the bison had RWR? screaming that there is an Aim120 coming his way?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby yensoy » 17 Dec 2019 06:48

Yes it is true that F-16s fired first. Our Su's presumably had no authorization to fire except in self-defence because we did not want to escalate - that much is clear. So once the Su's take the evasive action of avoiding BVR, they are not able to recover in time and fire back, especially when the attackers have turned tail and headed back. That makes sense.

Pakfauj should thank their lucky stars that they didn't actually hit an Su over Indian territory. Had they done so, the escalation would have been very different.

Regarding Dr Fair and Mr Sawhney's contrarian claims, let's not throw out the baby along with the bathwater. They do make some good points, there is always room for introspection and improvement; I am sure the forces already know that.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 17 Dec 2019 07:04

yensoy wrote:Yes it is true that F-16s fired first. Our Su's presumably had no authorization to fire except in self-defence because we did not want to escalate - that much is clear. So once the Su's take the evasive action of avoiding BVR, they are not able to recover in time and fire back, especially when the attackers have turned tail and headed back. That makes sense.

Pakfauj should thank their lucky stars that they didn't actually hit an Su over Indian territory. Had they done so, the escalation would have been very different.


As Sameer's note made clear, the Su-30s could have fired back. They chose not to, because the F-16s were not in the correct launch envelope.

They raced upto 30km close, tried for a proper weapons solution, realized the positioning was still not sufficient for a counter-shot with decent Pk

Regarding Dr Fair and Mr Sawhney's contrarian claims, let's not throw out the baby along with the bathwater. They do make some good points, there is always room for introspection and improvement; I am sure the forces already know that.


These are not contrarian claims but propaganda. The forces have no time and energy to rebut each and every piece of trash put out and neither do we wish to further these claims, once a rebuttal is made. One of the individuals involved was also keen on IAF purchasing F-16s. Enough said as to the motivation.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 17 Dec 2019 07:06

nam wrote:I wonder if the bison had RWR? screaming that there is an Aim120 coming his way?


Of course it does. It has a Tarang RWR and the RWR would have picked up the AMRAAM once its seeker went active at 10-20 km. It would have also picked up the steady tone of the F-16s FCR before that.
Which is why Abhi had terrific guts to run the gauntlet despite knowing what was happening on his RWR.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 17 Dec 2019 07:09

Zynda wrote:Think its the other way around. F-16s had the height advantage and R-77s had to climb. Karan has posted a R-77 envelope plot against a non-maneuvering target. I think against a fighter, with missile having to climb and chase, the envelope reduces further.


Exactly. Also, if the opponent breaks and runs, the Su-30s are "fixed" in place having launched their AAMs with the need to guide them in, till they go active. Meanwhile, another F-16/s can flank them and fire missiles at them and if the Su-30s break and run, their shots fail.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Cain Marko » 17 Dec 2019 07:13

Fair Bibi is great for tsp bashing but PLEASE PLEASE don't take her seriously in matters of tactics and BDA! she is neither qualified nor learned in such things. Of course, she wants India to buy US fighters, and I don't blame her for pushing this, a bit like one Mr Tellis.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 17 Dec 2019 07:17

I just went to her twitter and learnt:

1. She name called Sameer for merely pointing out his opinion, the name calling is quite pathetic to whit. She has severe issues, is all one can say. Multiple IAF/IA veterans are now calling her out on her behavior.
2. She is a complete joke when it comes to airpower. Her latest: F-16s Pakistan had were inferior to Indian upgraded Bisons, ergo no big deal. She actually says this twice. I suspect IAF Bison pilots would have their mouth open. She then claims key factors for A2A kills are opportunity (1st) and pilot skill (2nd) etc. Basically arguing that it was no big deal for the IAF to down a Viper.
3. If anyone still takes her and the rest of the entitled "gora brigade" seriously after this...

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rishirishi » 17 Dec 2019 07:21

Can you please lay off the generics and explain in which specific areas India has fallen behind Pakistan in technology beyond the oft-quoted and silly points regarding BVR AAMs and SDRs (given they ignore what is available to the IAF, and what it is also doing).


The Amrams in particular. The Sukois were outgunned. It has been quoted by PM himself. If Abhi had been in a Rafael, the case would have been different. If IAF had had the 126 Rafaels, they were planning to get, TSP would not have dared to put on the show for their starved people.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 17 Dec 2019 07:27

Rishirishi wrote:
Can you please lay off the generics and explain in which specific areas India has fallen behind Pakistan in technology beyond the oft-quoted and silly points regarding BVR AAMs and SDRs (given they ignore what is available to the IAF, and what it is also doing).


The Amrams in particular. The Sukois were outgunned. It has been quoted by PM himself. If Abhi had been in a Rafael, the case would have been different. If IAF had had the 126 Rafaels, they were planning to get, TSP would not have dared to put on the show for their starved people.


I asked you where *apart* from the BVR AAMs, SDRs. So after a post about how well the PAF spent scarce resources, you quote the AAMs which come w/the platform and hence which are not indicative of any special effort by Pakistan. You take what the vendor provides you.

Our Su-30s came with the R-77 and until recently Russia did not bother developing an upgrade, because it had other options for its integrated air defense. Other options were in development (Astra), not available (Meteor).

As regards Rafale (not Rafael - latter is an Israeli weapons firm, maker of the SPICE), that issue is squarely GOI's especially the UPA led one's as to why they didn't order it. Not the IAF's fault.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby shaun » 17 Dec 2019 07:56

In case of full fledged war , the capability we have can decimate paf but for such snipping scenarios , party having the element of surprise , better platforms with long range arm will prevail upon the later .

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Cain Marko » 17 Dec 2019 12:00

Ultimately everybody. Wants to see dishum dishum. Note how fairbibi demonstrates her ignorance about spice penetrators by pointing out there was no dhamaka. this despite YouTube videos that clearly show how some munitions like spice variants cause modest visible damage at entry point.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Roop » 17 Dec 2019 12:15

Aditya_V wrote:A shoot down by a Mig 21 is bad PR for LM F-16


Bingo!! That's it, the sum total of all the bullsh!t and lies coming from American sources. If, hypothetically speaking, the IAF was flying F16s or F18s that day and shot down a Paki F16, there would have been no problem admitting it. Even if the F16 had been brought down by a Mirage / Rafale, the Americans may have denied it but the news would have leaked out through French sources.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Roop » 17 Dec 2019 12:26

Cain Marko wrote:Fair Bibi is ... and I don't blame her for pushing this, a bit like one Mr Tellis.


The difference between her and Tellis is that she is rude and obnoxious, he is not. Tellis is always civil and polite, even if he makes recommendations we might disagree with (i.e. buy the F16 / F18).

I can't see any reason to invite Fair back to India for any such seminar / conference.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 17 Dec 2019 13:09

Roop wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:A shoot down by a Mig 21 is bad PR for LM F-16


Bingo!! That's it, the sum total of all the bullsh!t and lies coming from American sources. If, hypothetically speaking, the IAF was flying F16s or F18s that day and shot down a Paki F16, there would have been no problem admitting it. Even if the F16 had been brought down by a Mirage / Rafale, the Americans may have denied it but the news would have leaked out through French sources.


Absolutely true. She mentioned that F-16 went down is not a reflection of me or of my country and again reiterated that MiG-21 bis Bison was superior to F-16. Maybe true, but then there was no need to keep reiterating. Seemed like being a bit overly defensive.

Yes, there are points to learn from her, and if we introspect objectively more, it will only strengthen our cause. Worst case, we would have learned to be more objective. Best case, we will not only learn how to detect bullshit better, but how to cut it.

P.S. For anyone who keeps insisting she uses her BS detector whenever someone gives jargon, her throwing around confirmation bias, and then explaining it to the audience was a little rich. The Brigadier Major, paid he back in her own coin by asking her if she knew what it meant. And she fell for it like a petulant brat. :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby srai » 17 Dec 2019 14:41

Rishirishi wrote:
Can you please lay off the generics and explain in which specific areas India has fallen behind Pakistan in technology beyond the oft-quoted and silly points regarding BVR AAMs and SDRs (given they ignore what is available to the IAF, and what it is also doing).


The Amrams in particular. The Sukois were outgunned. It has been quoted by PM himself. If Abhi had been in a Rafael, the case would have been different. If IAF had had the 126 Rafaels, they were planning to get, TSP would not have dared to put on the show for their starved people.

Meteor on Rafale only became available recently. Doubt the IAF would have had it as part of the original 126 Rafale. It would have been a separate order.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby fanne » 17 Dec 2019 20:14

I have a question - If it was rafale and not SU 30MKI and at 30 km from Solah, at a lower altitude - with it's meteor (and for sake of argument, it was not fired before at greater range), EW package, Agility, sensor fusion, could it have brought down the solah without being in considerable danger itself?
If the answer to above is yes - We (IAF, DRDO, planners) owe it to ourselves to upgrade/upgun SU30MKI. There is no reason, why it is even a notch below Rafale. We have all the requisite license and know how's. The only thing that is stopping SU30MKI from becoming deadlier than Rafale is our own lack of will, intent, foresight and hard work. We have close to 300 of it () and it has the highest potential to improve!!
By itself 300 MKI upgraded to Rafale standard and beyond will be a game changer.
There are steps being taken - Brahmos NG is one, Balakot strike can happen while SU30MKI is flying over Pathankot. It can certainly influence ground war in big way. Our own Astra BVR (mk 1 and 2) and the Meteor equivalent (we have already done few tests to prove propulsion) should be fast tracked. A final solution to EW package done. The current radar and other fitments need not change for it to be as good as Rafale (it can to make it better). It is these little changes, it is so near, yet so far!!

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ramana » 17 Dec 2019 20:45

Karan M wrote:I just went to her twitter and learnt:

1. She name called Sameer for merely pointing out his opinion, the name calling is quite pathetic to whit. She has severe issues, is all one can say. Multiple IAF/IA veterans are now calling her out on her behavior.
2. She is a complete joke when it comes to airpower. Her latest: F-16s Pakistan had were inferior to Indian upgraded Bisons, ergo no big deal. She actually says this twice. I suspect IAF Bison pilots would have their mouth open. She then claims key factors for A2A kills are opportunity (1st) and pilot skill (2nd) etc. Basically arguing that it was no big deal for the IAF to down a Viper.
3. If anyone still takes her and the rest of the entitled "gora brigade" seriously after this...



The Chandigarh Brigade (CB) that organized the Mil Lit festival have egg on their face with prime performance by Pravin Sawheney and now Unfair Didi.

The CB is basically an arms dalal network.
So dissing Indian Migs promotes imports.
So if Vipers are shown to be bad hurts the interests of the promoters.


Not one speaker has written a serious book. All are pay to print writers.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby dkhare » 18 Dec 2019 01:46

Karan M wrote:
nam wrote:I wonder if the bison had RWR? screaming that there is an Aim120 coming his way?


Of course it does. It has a Tarang RWR and the RWR would have picked up the AMRAAM once its seeker went active at 10-20 km. It would have also picked up the steady tone of the F-16s FCR before that.
Which is why Abhi had terrific guts to run the gauntlet despite knowing what was happening on his RWR.


Another question is whether Abhi's Bison was carrying an SPJ or not? If he was flying with full complement of 2 R-77s, 2 R-73s, and a centerline EFT, there was no hardpoint available for the SPJ.

Here is a picture of a Bison equipped with an SPJ but it uses the entire outboard pylon. Maybe due to the service life left on the Bisons, it was deemed too late to design/build/operationalize a dual pylon version like the one for Tejas MK1A.
Image

If the Bison was carrying it, would it have protected Abhi from the incoming Aim-120C5? Probably.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 18 Dec 2019 03:08

It didnt carry one. Would it have protected Abhi? Only if the missile was in the SPJs coverage area and not from the flanks.

nam
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nam » 18 Dec 2019 04:19

Rishirishi wrote:The Amrams in particular. The Sukois were outgunned. It has been quoted by PM himself. If Abhi had been in a Rafael, the case would have been different. If IAF had had the 126 Rafaels, they were planning to get, TSP would not have dared to put on the show for their starved people.


The Aim120 was fired under 70KM. So it is not a case of being out-gunned, as both PAF & IAF were within their BVR ranges.


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