China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

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ArjunPandit
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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 27 Dec 2019 15:42

let me take that up..if not regularly at least occasionally

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 27 Dec 2019 15:53

^^^ That would be good and valuable service, Arjun ji!

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 27 Dec 2019 16:13

Warships again :roll:

They just launched two different destroyer classes from the same drydock on the 26th -- Type 052D on left, Type 055 on right:


https://mobile.twitter.com/WarshipPorn/status/1210075709655408641

WarshipPorn
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Eighth and Ninth Destroyers launched in 2019. (23rd Type 052D and 6th Type 055)


Image



The 052D is equivalent to our P15A/B at 7.5K ton except with a lot more mijjiles in a 64-cell UVLS. And now they have 23 of them.

The Type 055 is basically a cruiser at 12K tons and 112-cell VLS.

Nine destroyers in one year.
Last edited by chola on 27 Dec 2019 16:19, edited 1 time in total.

nam
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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby nam » 27 Dec 2019 16:18

I would say we need to keep a more detailed watch on Chinese radar system, sensors,networks, EW and tactical weapons. These are real war fighting weapons, which will go in to Pak hands.

They may develop ICBM, but what is the point of monitoring it? Either they have it or they don't. We just need to assume they have.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 27 Dec 2019 16:43

^^^ Namji, you are welcome to post on those subjects. Following chini mil is like drinking from a fire hose so there is plenty of items to post on. If we are concerned about fighting systems we might actually face, it would be their armored vehicles and small-arms which are ubiquitous among our neighbors and across the IOR but are rarely reported. The BM and space launches are important in that they represent the high end of our competition with them that is also rarely reported.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby SNaik » 27 Dec 2019 17:33

chola wrote:Warships again :roll:

They just launched two different destroyer classes from the same drydock on the 26th -- Type 052D on left, Type 055 on right:

Nine destroyers in one year.


They continue to build extremely fast, but the time between the launch and actual induction is growing. There are six 055 in water and only one is inducted, probably prematurely, to be the showboat at the Navy review/

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby tandav » 27 Dec 2019 17:47

the Chinese counterpoint to the M777 inducted in the Himalayan theatre AH4 ultra light howitzer. Coupled with their Z20Copyhawk helicopter for rapid mobility represents potentially a significant threat in the Arunachal theatre.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... na/ah4.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harbin_Z-20

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 27 Dec 2019 17:53

SNaik wrote:
chola wrote:Warships again :roll:

They just launched two different destroyer classes from the same drydock on the 26th -- Type 052D on left, Type 055 on right:

Nine destroyers in one year.


They continue to build extremely fast, but the time between the launch and actual induction is growing. There are six 055 in water and only one is inducted, probably prematurely, to be the showboat at the Navy review/


More workers in the construction docks than refit folks and then trained sailors?

They have similar issues with aircraft. There were satellite pictures of 21 new J-10Cs stacked up at Chengdu awaiting engines or pilots.

They build stuff extremely quick because they concentrated on the base first. Because that is where they can create the most jobs with the least training?

Production is a goal not just a means. They need it to keep people employed, especially with the trade war. I have little doubt they'll ramp up personnel pipelines in those other areas later.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 27 Dec 2019 17:56

^^weren't significant concerns raised about the z20..wasnt it rejected by pakistan? again the Indian strategy is to maintain a deterrent posture...
1. we have adequate boots on ground as compared to chinese,
2. increased mobility to move men and equipment in our terrain through C130/C17/chinooks, there were also plans for LCAC/Hovercrafts around B'mputra area to move men and equippment and improved infra (rail and roads)
3. firepower through arti, apache and chinook
perhaps the only thing we dont have an answer to is their manufacturing scales..being in a communist system helps them tremendously there...while we wait for LCA orders they are rolling out ships, planes, bombers and radars like sausages...the only thing we can do is hope for their collapse like soviets...

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 27 Dec 2019 17:57

chola ji they are also not going to fight today...or tomorrow may be next decade...but having this equipment gives them great advantage...in a decade they will have enough men to die for..lets ask this question, whose shoes we would want to be in militarily? chinese or indian?

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby vishvak » 27 Dec 2019 18:11

Indian side is reactive while Chinese are onto pushing arbitrary claims and sitting on UNSC chair. That way Indian side has its work cut out what with inertia rolling over each step till everyone is sufficiently bribed/happy someway (xcept defence forces).

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 27 Dec 2019 18:21

ArjunPandit wrote:chola ji they are also not going to fight today...or tomorrow may be next decade...but having this equipment gives them great advantage...in a decade they will have enough men to die for..lets ask this question, whose shoes we would want to be in militarily? chinese or indian?


Honest opinion?

With War: Indian, we own glaring advantages in numbers and technology in every realistic conflict scenario with Cheen; those ships and aircraft are placed against the US and its allies. The PLAN might have 23 Type 052D in the pipeline, the USN has 60 Arleigh Burkes now. They only put 7 or 8 ships in the IOR at any given time. Geography and geo-politics are heavily in our favor,

Without War: Chinese, the chini industrial machine can overwhelm opponents at sea, in the air and soon in space -- they've more launches every year than even Unkil and Russia -- during peace time. And the massive and growing size of their armed forces will further discourage war.

The chances of war between nuclear great powers is practically nil anyways IMHO. We need to plan better for competition without actual kinetic conflict. Buying superior phoren weapon systems won't help here. We need a MIC of the first order.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 27 Dec 2019 20:21

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science ... h-5-rocket

CZ-5 mission declared a success after Shijian-20 satellite carrying ‘new era’ communications equipment entered its designated orbit on Friday evening
Commander said team had ‘solved the problems’ that had led to two previous setbacks


Image

It was China’s 34th and final space launch of the year, more than any other country, including the United States which carried out 27.
holly molly....

The Shijian-20, built using the new Dongfanghong-5 platform, will be one of the largest satellites operating at geosynchronous orbit 36,000km above China and surrounding areas.


The satellite is expected to take China’s space communication frequency to 5 gigahertz and data transfer speed to 1 terabyte per second. It is also the first Chinese satellite to use a high-powered ion-thrust engine designed to improve its manoeuvrability and service time.
It also carries quantum encryption equipment to enable ultra-secure communication for military and government users, according to space authorities.


While the CZ-5 is not the world’s largest rocket – its low-Earth orbit capacity is 28 tonnes compared to the 60 tonnes of the Falcon Heavy built by SpaceX in the US – Chinese space experts said it may end up with more transport missions. They said the Falcon Heavy was too big for most missions and too small for ultra-heavy tasks such as landing humans on the moon.


But China has made some headway in recent years, including launching the world’s first quantum communication satellite that uses cutting-edge technology. Its satellite navigation system BeiDou has also surpassed GPS in terms of the number of satellites in operation. Chinese scientists are developing a satellite that can “see” objects 500 metres under the sea, such as submarines.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 28 Dec 2019 12:25

So according this new Alert5 article, the chinis are still struggling with the WS-15, WS-19, WS-18 and WS-20 with each being only in limited production for the near future.

Most nations including ours would kill to get a single one of those classes into a limited run.

The WS-10 was severely hampered initially too but is now in a successful production run, according to the same report. They are expecting to build up to 450 in 2026 -- that could theoretically power about 100 two-engined heavy fighters (J-20, J-16, etc.) and 100 J-10s a year excluding 150 engines for spares.

Eh, chinis are methodically working themselves into major engine producers by repeated failures and iterations. It is a matter of time before they work out the kinks.

Legend:
WS-15 -- heavy low-bypass, 180kN, 11/1 TWR (J-20)
WS-19 -- medium low-bypass, 110 kN, 11/1 TWR (J-35)
WS-18 -- high-bypass, 120kN (H-6X)
WS-20 -- high-bypass, 140kN (Y-20)

http://alert5.com/2019/12/26/china-will-struggle-to-develop-new-military-turbofan-engines-at-least-till-2026/


China still struggling to develop new military turbofan engines

A regulator stock exchange filing by the Hebei subsidiary of China’s Central Iron & Steel Research (CISRI) has disclosed the production numbers of military engines for the next decade.

Data provided by Hebei Cisri Dekai Technology Co. Ltd. shows a maximum of only five WS-15 and WS-19 engines each year from 2020 till 2026. The WS-15 will power the J-20 stealth fighter while the WS-19 is being develop for the FC-31 fighter.

The WS-18 engine is running into trouble with development half suspended as the company research into new materials. The WS-18 is designed for the H-6K bomber and Y-20 airlifter.

Another alternative engine for the Y-20, the WS-20 will also enter limited production starting from 2024.

The WS-10, which powers the J-10, J-11, J-15, J-16 fighters is having a successful production run. The company sees gradual increase in annual production numbers starting from 320 engines in 2020 till 450 engines by 2026.

The PLA is expected to induct a large number of Z-20 utility helicopters into service in the next decade as demands for the WZ-10 turboshaft engine is being increased from 65 for 2020 till 205 engines each year by 2026.


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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 28 Dec 2019 13:01

I suspect the WS-10 is nothing but an AL-31F being license Manufactured by the Chinese similar to what we are doing, the Russians are not going to let go of thier gravy trail soo easily, and being a closed society- the Chinese Regime needs to show successes.

I remember Chinese posters when the 1st information of SU-35 purchase came out, we have the much superior J-20 we will not buy Russian Junk 4th Gen etc etc- turns out PLAAF did indeed buy the SU-35.

I

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 28 Dec 2019 18:01

Aditya_V wrote:I suspect the WS-10 is nothing but an AL-31F being license Manufactured by the Chinese similar to what we are doing, the Russians are not going to let go of thier gravy trail soo easily, and being a closed society- the Chinese Regime needs to show successes.

I remember Chinese posters when the 1st information of SU-35 purchase came out, we have the much superior J-20 we will not buy Russian Junk 4th Gen etc etc- turns out PLAAF did indeed buy the SU-35.

I


Aditya ji, the size and shape of the outlet and number of petals on the nozzle are very different between the WS-10 and AL-31.

Image

If it is the same engine then it was heavily modify and then tested.

AL-31 on the left, WS-10 on the right in this J-11 testbed:
Image

And it is used across many platforms. Very different from what we are doing or are allowed to do with the MKI's AL-31.

So is for all intent and purpose a new engine even if it were an AL-31 derivative. But I am inclined to believe US intelligence saying it is a RE CFM56. The nozzle in fact is closer to the F110 than the AL-31.

Image
Image

The problem with the SU-35 argument is there are only 24 of them and they are still building domestic aircraft by the hundreds.

If the USAF has the option, it would buy a squadron of SU-35 too. It bought J-7s from Cheen during 1980s to serve as aggressors.

I am sure Cheen will buy some SU-57s too but that will not stop the production of the J-20 or J-35.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 29 Dec 2019 19:42

It would be a giant LOL if this comes to pass. lol

https://mobile.twitter.com/RupprechtDeino/status/1211232299578220544


@Rupprecht_A
@RupprechtDeino
Finally before year's end again a clearer image of the #PLAN Type 003 aircraft carrier.

Image

RussianBot
@IQ_EXAMINER
·
2h
Replying to
@RupprechtDeino
What if that is a big container ship?

@Rupprecht_A
@RupprechtDeino
·
1h
Then many spotter and followers will be very very disappointed ... maybe similar to those, who expected the JF-17 Block 3 to look like this fan made concept.


RussianBot
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52m
Decrease expectations, it might be a big container ship.

@Rupprecht_A
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So You don't joke? ... why do you think so?

RussianBot
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I just want to wait until the confirmed image, and that shipyard has civilian contract.


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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 29 Dec 2019 19:46

Cheen launches 24th 052D in Shanghai, 10th destroyer this year.

https://mobile.twitter.com/dafengcao/status/1211198009545035776

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Rakesh » 30 Dec 2019 02:01

Tweet below in response to the article...

https://twitter.com/HoansSolo/status/12 ... 6112197635 ---> Don't agree with the premise here: Chinese Navy will have massive maintenance issues, not to mention quality/faulty design issues, in a couple of years from now. Happened to the Germans/Austro-Hungarians in the run-up to WW1 and the Soviets in 1970s a. 80s.

China’s vast fleet is tipping the balance in the Pacific
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/sp ... army-navy/
30 April 2019

The Chinese navy, which is growing faster than any other major fleet, now controls the seas off its coast. Once dominant, the United States and its allies sail warily in these waters. A former U.S. naval officer says China's advances have caught America napping.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 30 Dec 2019 17:46

Rakesh wrote:Tweet below in response to the article...

https://twitter.com/HoansSolo/status/12 ... 6112197635 ---> Don't agree with the premise here: Chinese Navy will have massive maintenance issues, not to mention quality/faulty design issues, in a couple of years from now. Happened to the Germans/Austro-Hungarians in the run-up to WW1 and the Soviets in 1970s a. 80s.

China’s vast fleet is tipping the balance in the Pacific
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/sp ... army-navy/
30 April 2019

The Chinese navy, which is growing faster than any other major fleet, now controls the seas off its coast. Once dominant, the United States and its allies sail warily in these waters. A former U.S. naval officer says China's advances have caught America napping.


Admiral Sir! Maintenance is another issue (and adequate staffing another still) but that comes with having a navy at all.

If Cheen were happy enough with the USN dominating its coast line then they could have saved themselves the maintenance issue by building a small navy. But it doesn't seem like they were happy with that arrangement with the amreekis and are now saddled with maintenance of a large number of ships. lol

Well I hope we are not discouraged from building a larger navy because of fears of maintaining them!

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Rakesh » 30 Dec 2019 19:37

Chola, that comment in the tweet is not mine :)

I just did cut-and-paste.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby John » 30 Dec 2019 20:10

Little OT but all these nice fancy ships are for when you are willing to wave the white flag and commit billions to buy US agricultural good so Trump can get elected (I don’t see any countries including India or Europe relenting that easily To bullying ). So that is definition IMO of a paper tiger.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 31 Dec 2019 08:08

^^^ I've been saying this all along, Cheen is a SRE race with the ultimate SRE strategy like a herd of water buffalo. Grass eaters that will avoid fighting while taking over a field or watering hole by shear numbers.

They haven't fought a war in the 40 years of its rise by employing this herbivorous strategy.

BTW, with the destroyer launchings in the past week, I missed their 71st Type 056 corvette. The number is completely ludicrous. lol

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2019/12/china-launched-the-24th-type-052d-6th-type-055-71st-type-056-vessels-for-plan/


Last but not least, Huangpu shipyard, located near Guangzhou in southern China, launched today what is likely the 71st (!) Type 056 corvette for the PLAN.



It is a paper tiger navy but would Cheen be able to impact the local waters without it?

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 31 Dec 2019 17:42

I think it is wrong to see Cheen as a mainly military threat. In fact, its military is a proverbial paper tiger that doesn't go to war. It is a historic industrial power first and foremost that is currently working out the process of mass producing ships and aircraft like it did for refrigerators, cellphones and high-speed rail. The main threat is of being overwhelmed by an avalanche of machines during peace time.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/31667/a-whopping-20-y-20-airlifters-seen-at-chinese-aircraft-plant-and-test-base


A Whopping 20 Y-20 Airlifters Seen At Chinese Aircraft Plant And Test Base

The activity at Yanliang Air Base is yet another glaring reminder that Beijing's military might seems to be on a nearly exponential growth curve.

BY TYLER ROGOWAY
DECEMBER 30, 2019

Xi'an Aircraft Company, which makes China's most prominent large aircraft, among other responsibilities, has its primary plant located at the sprawling Yanliang Air Base that also houses China's Flight Test Establishment, as well as academic institutions that deal with aircraft design.

...

In a high-resolution satellite image we exclusively obtained from Planet Labs that was taken just 48 hours ago, the breakneck pace of Y-20 strategic transport production is abundantly clear. The photo of the base includes no less than 20 Y-20s, the most we have ever seen at the installation based on a number of high-resolution images available for review that span a number of years.

...

Also seen scattered about the base are 17 Xi'an H-6 bombers. Now in its drastically upgraded H-6K form, along with its derivatives, these bombers, which draw their design lineage from the 1950s Soviet Badger, are the backbone of the People's Liberation Army's long-range aviation enterprise and perform a large variety of roles beyond traditional bomber and cruise missile delivery missions. These include acting as the mothership for outsized high-speed drones and massive air-launched ballistic missiles.


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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby John » 31 Dec 2019 18:27

chola wrote:I think it is wrong to see Cheen as a mainly military threat. In fact, its military is a proverbial paper tiger that doesn't go to war. It is a historic industrial power first and foremost that is currently working out the process of mass producing ships and aircraft like it did for refrigerators, cellphones and high-speed rail. The main threat is of being overwhelmed by an avalanche of machines during peace time.

If China is really prepping for military conflict and power projection they would have pushed back on tariffs and refused to negotiate till US removed all tariffs and Huawei from black list. And simply escalate the trade war and get democrat president elected which would also mean lower US military spending, win win for China for short term pain. WH badly underestimated the potential impact of tariff to US economy/markets and China had US admin backed in a corner but China capitulated.

China waived the white flag and apparently was desperately trying to get deal signed as early as last June. Trump is playing along and stretching the deal phase , timing them on impeachment, primary and elections so it gets him elected.

Part of reason is most of Chinese communist party officials hold a large amount of equities (incl US firms see panama papers) they are more worried about the to hit their portfolios and also any potential slowdown to Chinese economy which would increase political turmoil. Heck even France is showing more backbone refusing to negotiate on the US tariffs that came after their digital tax .

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 01 Jan 2020 15:55

^^^ This is why I see little hope for war with Cheen. They will never fight and will instead allow their massive and growing fleets at sea, air and space take over the global commons and then the new frontier of space because other nations (save the US) cannot match that production.

The US trade and tech war are meant to disrupt this production growth by denying it surplus wealth and technology. We won't know the results until a few years later.

But a cautionary tale is in satellites. The embargo on chini satellite by the Bush administration was supposed to cripple their space ambitions but Chinis are now leading the world in space launches and will finish up Beidou-3 in the coming months with 35 satellites, the 33 they have in orbit now are already bigger than the 24 of the Amreeki GPS. In fact, including the smaller but connected constellations of Beidou-1 and Beidou-2 they have put over 50 global positioning satellites into orbit. The chini ability to mass produce in seemingly any and every field is almost incomprehensible from a rakshak's standpoint.

Their most famous achilles heel is their lack of domestic aero-engines but even here they are well on their way to mass production. The number of engine types and variants is legion -- WS-15, WS-13, WS-12, WS-18, WS-19 and countless variants of the WS-10.

By 2026, they will have built enough WS-10 variants -- conservatively subtracting a third for spares -- to potentially equip over 1000 new J-20s, J-10s and a plethora of Sino-flanker types.

http://china-defense.blogspot.com/2019/12/china-finally-closes-engine-gap-100.html

Tuesday, December 31, 2019
Chinese Fighter Turbine Engines: Production Outlook through 2026

A recent Alert5 article "China still struggling to develop new military turbofan engines" used production forecasts from the Hebei Cisri Dekai Technology Co. Ltd. to suggest that China was having trouble developing engines. However, the assumptions Alert5 used as to which aircraft would use which engine were not entirely correct, as evidenced by recent pics of J-20 production aircraft fitted with WS-10C instead of projected WS-15. Particularly in terms of fighter aircraft, we can see now that indigenous engine production is more than capable of supporting a tremendous number of new airframes in the coming years.

CDF Forum Member "Pierrotlefeu" explains how:

WS-10C is just a placeholder for J-20 like Al-31F was for J-10. It allows the first batch of J-20s to be operationalized and put into service, which is important to get feedback for improvement and familiarize the fighter corps. The WS-15 may not appear in service until after 2026, which is actually FASTER than how WS-10 was for the J-10 (entered service 2008, indigenous engine 2019, 11 years vs potentially 8 ).

What is more interesting is that production of WS-10 is slated to reach 2740 engines by 2026. Assuming worst case scenario of 1/3 for spares and re-engine of older planes, that leaves around 1800 engines for new planes.

...

That's potentially 168 new J-20s, 488 J-10s, and 488 homemade Flankers (including naval ones).


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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby kit » 01 Jan 2020 16:08

Once they master jet engine tech , with their numbers and production capabilities they will bring down costs ...and profits for the cartel of western manufacturers

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 01 Jan 2020 16:21

^^^ Their customers allow them time and effort to master engines, IMHO.

The PLAAF doesn't wait for a gold-plated or even design-spec-ed machine before accepting it. They will take an AL-31 powered J-10 and allow the kinks to be worked out in the WS-10 production lines. They will then take a WS-10 powered J-20 and allow the kinks to be worked out in the WS-15 production lines.

It seems the Chini experience is you cannot perfect production of engines in a lab or with prototypes. You need to start production early and go through iterations of production lines to wring out the problems.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby mahadevbhu » 01 Jan 2020 17:26

This is truly Agile hardware development. The great thing is that they have a giant supply chain of factories who are producing widgets. So building on top of that industrial base is so much easier than starting a Desi factory from scratch, getting funding, technology and all and then putting it all together.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 02 Jan 2020 20:02

^^^ The industrial complex in Cheen is more similar to the chaebol and zaibatsu (conglomerate) systems of Korea and Japan than it is to the USSR.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 02 Jan 2020 20:13

According the alert5 article, the Copy Hawk will be produced in large numbers with the WZ-10 engines for it to be built at the rate of 200 per year by 2026.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RupprechtDeino/status/1212441760452005888

@Rupprecht_A
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Two Z-20s assigned to the PLA Army Aviation's 161st Air Assault Brigade with the serials LH953201 & LH953202.

Image



https://mobile.twitter.com/RupprechtDeino/status/1212439948026163201
@Rupprecht_A
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A white or light grey Z-20?? I'm surprised even more since there seem to be a serial number on the tail!?

Image

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 03 Jan 2020 16:26

Notes on chini military turbofan programs.

WS-9: medium -- JH-7, JH-7A
WS-9B: improved variant for JH-7B (possibly cancelled in lieu of J-16)

WS-10: heavy -- J-10, Sino-flankers, J-20
WS-10A: J-11B
WS-10B: J-16
WS-10B TVC: known example on J-10B at Zhuhai
WS-10BH: J-11BH, J-15
WS-10C : mass production model for J-10, J-20 (there were other WS-10 variants in previous prototype/LSP J-10s and J-20s)

WS-11: light -- L-15/JL-10

WS-12: medium, possibly non-AB variant of WS-13 developed for drones and trainers (was listed with WS-13 in Dekai report.)

WS-13: medium -- JF-17, FC-31/J-35

WS-15: advance heavy -- J-20

WS-18: high-bypass ratio for high subsonics -- H-6K/N/X, Y-20

WS-19: advanced medium -- FC-31/J-35

WS-20: high efficiency high-bypass for transports -- Y-20

Chances are there is an engine hidden from this list for the H-20 bomber.

Civilian turbofans that might be used for converted civil airliners (any conversion will preclude slated Western engines.)

ACAE CJ-500: medium high-bypass -- ARJ-21

CJ-1000A: medium high-bypass comparable to LEAP-C -- C919

CJ-2000: heavy high-bypass -- C929

SF-A: WS-10 high-bypass derivative -- C919

This is a far bigger list than you would find in even established engine makers like the UK or France. Several orders of magnitude greater than the nearest nontraditional player Japan (who has basically two programs -- one low-bypass, one high-bypass.) The chini move on the engine area is not a project or two like we are doing with the Kaveri and HTFE-25 but an industry wide attack across nearly all segments of the market from low to medium to heavy and in both low-bypass for fighters and high-bypass for transport.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 06 Jan 2020 05:45

An interesting look at the PLAN's upgrade programs. VLS were included in the ones listed below.

Post midlife upgrade of the Type 051B DDG 167 Shenzhen (6K tons):
Image

Changes includes installation of new 32-cell VLS (in place of the short range HQ-7) and two new CIWS weapons:
Image

MLU of the Sovremenny DDG 136 Hangzhou (8K tons) includes installation of the HQ-10 QRSAM along with two sets of 24-32 UVLS cells in both front and rear; the giant Moskit launchers and SA-N-12 single-arm launch system are removed:
Image

Before MLU:
Image

Like they don't have enough new destroyers to worry about. lol

Among others queued up for uplift are:

1) the other three PLAN Sovremennys; 137 is in refit now
2) the first two Type 054 frigates (not the "A" variant)
3) the two Type 052Bs

John
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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby John » 06 Jan 2020 06:49

Moskits are likely retired they do require Constant maintenance and their size makes it’s quite challenging. Brahmos addresses this being fully canisterized and recent improvement I believe have greatly increased the maintenance interval (Air launched Brahmos is different story).

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 12 Jan 2020 16:50

Interesting!

This is a pretty big mijjile to launch from the air.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RupprechtDeino/status/1216300431476957185


@Rupprecht_A
@RupprechtDeino
There is an interesting discussion going on after a satellite image of the XAC facility plant at Yanliang was re-examined. Taken at around 2018 shows several large missiles on the tarmac standing close to the H-6N bombers.

@Rupprecht_A
@RupprechtDeino
·
44m
Replying to
@RupprechtDeino
Given their size, they are definitely wider in diameter and longer than the regular KD-20 ALCMs and resemble more the rumoured BAShM (DF-21D ?). The missiles are wrapped under canvas or tarpaulins but at least one seems to show its white wing tail-fins

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image



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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby kit » 14 Jan 2020 00:09

https://www.janes.com/article/93621/indonesia-sends-more-warships-submarine-to-natuna-as-china-backs-down

Good, the Indonesians finally got it as to how to deal with the chinks !!

kit
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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby kit » 14 Jan 2020 00:11

chola wrote:Notes on chini military turbofan programs.

WS-9: medium -- JH-7, JH-7A
WS-9B: improved variant for JH-7B (possibly cancelled in lieu of J-16)

WS-10: heavy -- J-10, Sino-flankers, J-20
WS-10A: J-11B
WS-10B: J-16
WS-10B TVC: known example on J-10B at Zhuhai
WS-10BH: J-11BH, J-15
WS-10C : mass production model for J-10, J-20 (there were other WS-10 variants in previous prototype/LSP J-10s and J-20s)

WS-11: light -- L-15/JL-10

WS-12: medium, possibly non-AB variant of WS-13 developed for drones and trainers (was listed with WS-13 in Dekai report.)

WS-13: medium -- JF-17, FC-31/J-35

WS-15: advance heavy -- J-20

WS-18: high-bypass ratio for high subsonics -- H-6K/N/X, Y-20

WS-19: advanced medium -- FC-31/J-35

WS-20: high efficiency high-bypass for transports -- Y-20

Chances are there is an engine hidden from this list for the H-20 bomber.

Civilian turbofans that might be used for converted civil airliners (any conversion will preclude slated Western engines.)

ACAE CJ-500: medium high-bypass -- ARJ-21

CJ-1000A: medium high-bypass comparable to LEAP-C -- C919

CJ-2000: heavy high-bypass -- C929

SF-A: WS-10 high-bypass derivative -- C919

This is a far bigger list than you would find in even established engine makers like the UK or France. Several orders of magnitude greater than the nearest nontraditional player Japan (who has basically two programs -- one low-bypass, one high-bypass.) The chini move on the engine area is not a project or two like we are doing with the Kaveri and HTFE-25 but an industry wide attack across nearly all segments of the market from low to medium to heavy and in both low-bypass for fighters and high-bypass for transport.



as i said, the whole thing will spill over to the commercial engine market as well " chinese engines anyone ?..cheap ..comes with insurance :mrgreen:

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby brar_w » 14 Jan 2020 00:15

chola wrote:This is a pretty big mijjile to launch from the air.


Goes to show how much the technology was developed during the cold war. The Chinese are only now doing (or attempting to do) what the US, and Soviets, did during that time-frame. There is very little in the field of Ballistic Missiles technology that isn't a re-hashing, or upgrading of concepts, technologies, and ideas that were developed during the 1950-1980 timeframe. ALBM, ALASAT and even some of the BGV stuff goes back to that era. Incredible!

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 14 Jan 2020 06:23

kit wrote:as i said, the whole thing will spill over to the commercial engine market as well " chinese engines anyone ?..cheap ..comes with insurance :mrgreen:


For the cheeni market onlee. Not sure anyone can pay the premium needed to insure a chinese engine for an airliner. lol

But life is cheaper for chini mil personnel -- lower monthlies! Note nearly all of those turbofans save the uber new WS-15 and WS-19 have flown on some PLAAF aircraft. They put things in production rather quickly it seems. In production, not necessarily production quality.

chola
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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 14 Jan 2020 06:25

brar_w wrote:
chola wrote:This is a pretty big mijjile to launch from the air.


Goes to show how much the technology was developed during the cold war. The Chinese are only now doing (or attempting to do) what the US, and Soviets, did during that time-frame. There is very little in the field of Ballistic Missiles technology that isn't a re-hashing, or upgrading of concepts, technologies, and ideas that were developed during the 1950-1980 timeframe. ALBM, ALASAT and even some of the BGV stuff goes back to that era. Incredible!


They put people on the moon back then. You can't get much better than that with rocket/mijjile tech!


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