Modi Appoints Chief of Defence Staff (CDS): News and Discussions

nandakumar
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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby nandakumar » 01 Jan 2020 13:08

"Defence of India and every part thereof including defence policy and all such acts as as may be conducive in times of war to its prosecution and after its termination to effective demobilization,"
I am not trying to nitpick here as there are others more well versed in bureaucratic functioning. But I am genuinely trying to understand this. The quoted phrase as above seems to suggest to me that the Defence Secretarg is responsible for 'the 'Defence of India....... etc. etc' in 'times of war and after its termination to effective demobilisation'. Leave aside the incongruity of whether a person throughout his professional career been only in civil service should be tasked with carrying out the directives of the political authority during times of war in preference to the Secretary Military Affairs who has had a long stint in one of the wings of country's armed forces, the Defence Secretary becomes the points person for political leadership only during war times. A related question is what happens when the incumbent Defence Secretary retires and the Secretary Military Affairs happens to be the senior most among those remaining?

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby Kakarat » 01 Jan 2020 13:17

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 8508004352
IMAGES: New look of the First Chief Of Defence Staff India, Gen Bipin Rawat at the first Inter-Services Guard of Honour held at the South Block lawns for the new CDS.
The General is seen with the Tri-Services rank badges and accouterments.

Image
Image

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby Kakarat » 01 Jan 2020 13:44

https://twitter.com/SpokespersonMoD/sta ... 3915577344
Chief of Defence Staff General Bipin Rawat called on Raksha Mantri Shri rajnathsingh in New Delhi, today.

Image
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Gerard
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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby Gerard » 01 Jan 2020 18:29

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ramana
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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby ramana » 03 Jan 2020 00:08

Should we close this thread now that the appointment has been made?


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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby Gerard » 03 Jan 2020 03:23

India will work out its own model of theatre commands: CDS Rawat
There are methods of doing ‘theaterisation’. We don’t have to copy from western methods or others. We can have our own systems. We will jointly work out mechanisms…I think it will work,” said Gen Rawat

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby LakshmanPST » 03 Jan 2020 05:20

ramana wrote:Should we close this thread now that the appointment has been made?


We need a thread to discuss jointness and other post-CDS developments...
This thread can either be closed or title changed to include all these things...

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jan 2020 05:22

Ramana-ji, please start a new one and we can continue from there....

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby ramana » 03 Jan 2020 05:30

Rakesh on second thoughts lets keep it open till June when the first initiative materializes.
Meantime we can capture the CDS actions.
Also folks suggest a suitable title.

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jan 2020 05:31

Ok Ramana-ji.

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Re: Modi Appoints Chief of Defence Staff(CDS) News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 03 Jan 2020 06:44

Changed the title.

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Re: Modi Appoints Chief of Defence Staff(CDS) News and Discussions

Postby LakshmanPST » 03 Jan 2020 06:47

<deleted>
Last edited by LakshmanPST on 03 Jan 2020 21:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby hnair » 03 Jan 2020 13:04



:) :) :) Glad this is being given significant attention, particularly in the context of post-Balakote performance of existing ADS that I have posted on in the downing of f16 thread ! Air and outer space defense should be undertaken by a joint command, despite individual pieces being procured, manned and maintained by the different services. Ideally, nothing hostile should be airborne above Indian held territory or over any Indian military asset without permission.

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby Karthik S » 03 Jan 2020 15:25

Gerard wrote:India will work out its own model of theatre commands: CDS Rawat
There are methods of doing ‘theaterisation’. We don’t have to copy from western methods or others. We can have our own systems. We will jointly work out mechanisms…I think it will work,” said Gen Rawat


So glad to see this from the horse's mouth. Too often we look at and try to ape the west not trying to analyze if that strategy will work for us.

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Re: Modi Appoints Chief of Defence Staff (CDS): News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 03 Jan 2020 21:22

Actually its the chatteratti journos who put out motivated articles on how India should be like West. India has its own unique challenges and ethos to work with.
Adopting US JCS or UK CDS as a cookie cutter wont solve Indian problems.
See the unexpected Air Defence Command move which no journo despite being plugged in predicted.

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby chetak » 03 Jan 2020 22:22

Karthik S wrote:


So glad to see this from the horse's mouth. Too often we look at and try to ape the west not trying to analyze if that strategy will work for us.


there seem to be two forces pushing back even now. one mil and the other civilian.

both seem to have had the same end objective but different reasons and they had until recently, quite successfully managed to scuttle the CDS initiative since the 71 war.

it is telling that the mafia has the very same fear of the Army that her sasural has had for decades and the family retainers as well as the baboo(n)s were/are well aware of this and have, on opportune occasions, played upon this very fear to obtain specific outcomes to given situations that arose from time to time.

and perhaps that was how the pakis were kept happy st the cost of scuttling so many Indian counter initiative. That is how some traitorous beggars dared to think of handing over siachin, sircreek and whatnot or making some silly peace parks on the glacier.

Maybe maneckshaw was a tad too exuberant and flamboyant for the times that he lived in and more than wildly popular nationally for the comfort of a very insecure, secretive and unconfident politician who overcompensated by ruthless and active authoritarianism to quell mostly imagined plots against her regime as well as her person.

the politicians/baboo(n)s turned so vindictive against maneckshaw that they held up a large part of his pension and the collective amount was finally delivered to maneckshaw on his deathbed, repeat deathbed, by a faceless and nameless junior baboo(n) who gave him the cheque some short while before he passed on.

the insecure, secretive and unconfident politician had long since departed the world but still the baboo(n)s were unrelenting in their hatred and kept pending maneckshaw's dues to the bitter end.

The new CDS's job is not going to be easy.


x posted from the Army thread

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Re: Modi Appoints Chief of Defence Staff (CDS): News and Discussions

Postby ArjunPandit » 03 Jan 2020 22:34

ramana wrote:See the unexpected Air Defence Command move which no journo despite being plugged in predicted.

in hindsight this gels very well with what RV has been saying for ages..i dont think there were adequate AD resources/budgets provided...the story of the guy putting in finger to save the day on Akash should not be forgotten..so the political system ensured there is no poolable eqptmt and then there's no need for a CDS..now equipment has been trickling in for some time..so it needs too...personally speaking i would have wanted a navy guy to be the head of CDS as
1. navy has exposure, albeit limited, to all the domains Sea, air land
2. extensive preference & successess in indigenization (at least in %age terms) as compared to other services
3. our future outlook from a land based power to a semi-expeditionary power in our neighbourhood..
but thats just me..i do understand that army being the biggest has its own weight/might...

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Re: Modi Appoints Chief of Defence Staff (CDS): News and Discussions

Postby chetak » 03 Jan 2020 22:44

ArjunPandit wrote:
ramana wrote:See the unexpected Air Defence Command move which no journo despite being plugged in predicted.

in hindsight this gels very well with what RV has been saying for ages..i dont think there were adequate AD resources/budgets provided...the story of the guy putting in finger to save the day on Akash should not be forgotten..so the political system ensured there is no poolable eqptmt and then there's no need for a CDS..now equipment has been trickling in for some time..so it needs too...personally speaking i would have wanted a navy guy to be the head of CDS as
1. navy has exposure, albeit limited, to all the domains Sea, air land
2. extensive preference & successess in indigenization (at least in %age terms) as compared to other services
3. our future outlook from a land based power to a semi-expeditionary power in our neighbourhood..
but thats just me..i do understand that army being the biggest has its own weight/might...


In India, the Army is the "senior service" just like the RN is the "senior service" in uk.

a certain maryada has to be maintained.

They waited for the air chief Dhanoa to retire.

future CDSs may be from other services too.

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Re: Modi Appoints Chief of Defence Staff (CDS): News and Discussions

Postby ArjunPandit » 03 Jan 2020 22:49

chetak wrote:They waited for the air chief Dhanoa to retire.

was ACM senior to Gen Rawat?

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Re: Modi Appoints Chief of Defence Staff (CDS): News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jan 2020 22:51

Yes

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Re: Modi Appoints Chief of Defence Staff (CDS): News and Discussions

Postby mmasand » 04 Jan 2020 05:43

ArjunPandit wrote:
chetak wrote:They waited for the air chief Dhanoa to retire.

was ACM senior to Gen Rawat?


Yes, he was Chairman of the COSC briefly until he passed on the baton to Gen Rawat.

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Re: Modi Appoints Chief of Defence Staff (CDS): News and Discussions

Postby SBajwa » 04 Jan 2020 15:59

chetak wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:in hindsight this gels very well with what RV has been saying for ages..i dont think there were adequate AD resources/budgets provided...the story of the guy putting in finger to save the day on Akash should not be forgotten..so the political system ensured there is no poolable eqptmt and then there's no need for a CDS..now equipment has been trickling in for some time..so it needs too...personally speaking i would have wanted a navy guy to be the head of CDS as
1. navy has exposure, albeit limited, to all the domains Sea, air land
2. extensive preference & successess in indigenization (at least in %age terms) as compared to other services
3. our future outlook from a land based power to a semi-expeditionary power in our neighbourhood..
but thats just me..i do understand that army being the biggest has its own weight/might...


In India, the Army is the "senior service" just like the RN is the "senior service" in uk.

a certain maryada has to be maintained.

They waited for the air chief Dhanoa to retire.

future CDSs may be from other services too.



Now that calls for a very profound debate

Which one from the four main services could be the best cds in next 25 years? Army, Air Force, Navy or Nuclear command? And without bias where enemy does not have any positive feelings.

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Re: Modi Appoints Chief of Defence Staff (CDS): News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 05 Jan 2020 04:42

One who had operational experience in fighting at command level.
Next would be one who has exceptional inter service experience.

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Re: Modi Appoints Chief of Defence Staff (CDS): News and Discussions

Postby Anoop » 05 Jan 2020 08:21

It will be difficult to have a CDS who has not been the Chief of his parent Service. That means that the next CDS will be the senior most Service Chief at thhat time.

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Re: Modi Appoints Chief of Defence Staff (CDS): News and Discussions

Postby srai » 05 Jan 2020 13:41

IMO, every three-year CDS term allows for a focus on one major joint initiative. Examples: Air Defense Command, Space Command, Theatre Commands, Special Forces Command, Strategic Command, Amphibious Command, Information Warfare Command etc. A CDS should be chosen based on the speciality associated with a service. An IAF chief would be better suited for Air Defense/Space Command, whereas Theatre Command would be more of an IA chief turf.

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Re: Modi Appoints Chief of Defence Staff (CDS): News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 06 Jan 2020 01:51

Anoop wrote:It will be difficult to have a CDS who has not been the Chief of his parent Service. That means that the next CDS will be the senior most Service Chief at thhat time.



My understanding is seniority will not be the criterion for CDS.
Going to be the First military person of the Country.

Eventually it could be the lady IAF controller who acted resolutely to blunt Swift Retort.

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Re: Modi Appoints Chief of Defence Staff (CDS): News and Discussions

Postby Anoop » 06 Jan 2020 02:11

ramana wrote:My understanding is seniority will not be the criterion for CDS.
Going to be the First military person of the country


Ramana, how do you see this playing out in practice? Currently, nominations for Service Chiefs are made by the Service vetted by civil bureaucracy and finally approved by political leadership. In the CDS context, the nominations will have to be made at least by a policy of consultation with the other Services. How do you see the incumbent Service Chiefs and CDS nominate a junior officer to not only supersede their own Service Chief but the other two as well?

In contrast, the policy of making the senior most Chief of Staffs Conmittee the CDS will automatically provide for a rotation among the three Services.

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Re: Modi Appoints Chief of Defence Staff (CDS): News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 06 Jan 2020 03:05

Rotation throws mediocrity and seniority allows non risk taking keep nose clean types.
So until at least TSP is fractured need some ridk takers.

I was also told onTwitter by senior rank retired there is a bias against armored corps cadre in IA.

Thats Not right.

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Re: Modi Appoints Chief of Defence Staff (CDS): News and Discussions

Postby Anoop » 06 Jan 2020 05:21

Re. bias against non-infantry arms in IA, some of it is a natural consequence of having nearly 30 years of COIN deployment where the majority of officers seeing action come from infantry.

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Re: Modi Appoints Chief of Defence Staff (CDS): News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 06 Jan 2020 07:23

Something more is going on
LTGen Ravi Shankar is writing about it. Wait for his next installment.

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Re: Modi Appoints Chief of Defence Staff (CDS): News and Discussions

Postby SBajwa » 06 Jan 2020 20:25

Is the coast guard also under CDS or not? All the reports say the three services (Army, Navy, Air Force) only.

Thanks

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Re: Modi Appoints Chief of Defence Staff (CDS): News and Discussions

Postby Abhibhushan » 07 Jan 2020 13:24

Ramana:

Any links Re Lt Gen Ravi Shankar?

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Re: Modi Appoints Chief of Defence Staff (CDS): News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 07 Jan 2020 21:11

Sure he is at IITM Chennai.

Also has a blog called Gunners shot.

https://palepurshankar.blogspot.com/

See middle paragraphs:

https://palepurshankar.blogspot.com/202 ... eyond.html





He was retired DG Arty and primary sponsor for Dhanush and Guided Pinaka.

Are you on Twitter?

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Re: Modi Appoints Chief of Defence Staff (CDS): News and Discussions

Postby Abhibhushan » 07 Jan 2020 23:21

Ramana:

Yes

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Re: Modi Appoints Chief of Defence Staff (CDS): News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 07 Jan 2020 23:32

Apka handle send by DM to me.

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Re: Modi Appoints Chief of Defence Staff (CDS): News and Discussions

Postby Vips » 11 Jan 2020 09:05

Govt appoints 2 joint secretaries, 38 other officials to assist Chief of Defence Staff.

The government has appointed two joint secretaries, 13 deputy secretaries and 25 under secretary-rank officials in the newly-created department of military affairs headed by Chief of Defence Staff Gen Bipin Rawat.

Officials sources said the appointments were made as per laid down roadmap to create an enabling set up for the Chief of Defence Staff (CDS) to implement the government's vision of ensuring tri-services synergy.

Two joint secretaries, 13 deputy secretaries and 25 under secretaries were appointed in the department of military affairs. (Going by the huge number of Babus being inducted in the CDS, a lot of new changes are sought to be made. We just have to hope the IAS lobby does not play its usual villan role in trying to dictate in military affairs)

Gen Rawat took charge as the country's first CDS on January 1 in what is seen as a watershed moment for India's military planning to bring in convergence among the three services for effectively dealing with future security challenges.

In the last few days, he held series of meetings with important functionaries of the defence ministry and the three services exploring ways to bring in inter-service synergy and jointness in a time bound manner.

As CDS, Gen Rawat is also acting as the Principal Military Advisor to the defence minister on all tri-services matters besides helming the Department of Military Affairs (DMA).

The CDS will have a key role in ensuring optimum utilisation of allocated budget, ushering in more synergy in procurement, training and operations of the services through joint planning and integration.

The other major mandate of the CDS is to facilitate indigenisation of weapons and equipment to the maximum extent possible while formulating the overall defence acquisition plan for the three Services.

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Re: Modi Appoints Chief of Defence Staff (CDS): News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 11 Jan 2020 09:47

I pray Vidur is one of the JS.

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Re: Modi Appoints Chief of Defence Staff (CDS): News and Discussions

Postby Vidur » 11 Jan 2020 10:12

Anoop wrote:Re. bias against non-infantry arms in IA, some of it is a natural consequence of having nearly 30 years of COIN deployment where the majority of officers seeing action come from infantry.


But officers from other arms form part of Rashtriya Rifles and see action too. What started off as a correction of the bias against Infantry by Gen BC Joshi (armoured corps) has now indeed become a bias against Armoured Corps. This is a problem.

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Re: Modi Appoints Chief of Defence Staff (CDS): News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 11 Jan 2020 23:03

The significance of the post of CDS lies in its potential for re-imagining national security
https://indianexpress.com/article/opini ... y-6208780/
10 January 2020

By Admiral Arun Prakash (Retd)


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