Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
tandav
BRFite
Posts: 531
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 08:24

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby tandav » 14 Jan 2020 22:05

manjgu wrote:
Rishirishi wrote:
They will build as many as they need to confidently project power and rival US. Don't think India has the means to get parity here. In stead it must try to make war as expensive as possible. Time to deploy more Balistic missiles.
we have a unsinkable a/c .... i did not understand really if the a/c will be defending itself or other ships. a shooting match between india ...china/pak will be decided on the land/air...the sea bit will be a side show... india has no foreign bases to secure...or protect a expeditiionary force... i have not yet understood the use case for carrier...


India was colonized since we did not control our seas. At the very least IN should dominate IOR for its own security and the security of all of Asia

manjgu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2212
Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby manjgu » 14 Jan 2020 22:08

stich ur clothes to ur size !! is good advice.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20418
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 14 Jan 2020 23:37

We are not doing away with carriers.We'll have 2+ until 2030,but should convert the planned 3-4 amphibs of 35k+ t into multi-role vessels.Japan will operate F-35Bs from its much smaller Ozumi flat top. These can complement the 2 exg. CVs that we have. This will give us 5 flat tops.Safety in numbers ,also able to deal more effectively and economically with smaller peacetime crises,not a full-blown conflict. Add to this land based supersonic maritime strike aircraft, equipped with BMos variants and LRCMs, plus several SSNs and SSKs, will make it extremely hostile for any intruding CBG into the IOR.It will ( SSGN/SSN) in addition give us the ability to conduct offensive operations in the ICS.We should be able to base all naval asset types in any bases that we may lease or be sllowed to operate from in ASEAN nations like Vietnam, the Phillippines, Indonesia,etc. The ANC islands should be our eastern forward base of operations just as Hawaii, Guam,etc. are for the US in the Pacific. Similarly, Lakshadwwep should be upgraded in it facilities. We will also,have somedecent level of forward naval ops. with islands and base facilities permitted by Mauritius,Oman,etc.,just as China will enjoy at Djibouti,Gwadar/ Jiwani, etc.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20418
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 14 Jan 2020 23:47

We are not doing away with carriers.We'll have 2+ until 2030,but should convert the planned 3-4 amphibs of 35k+ t into multi-role vessels.We should be able to operate 29Ks and NLCAs from Japan will operate F-35Bs from its much smaller Ozumi flat top. These can complement the 2 exg. CVs that we have. This will give us 5 flat tops.Safety in numbers ,also able to deal more effectively and economically with smaller peacetime crises,not a full-blown conflict. Add to this land based supersonic maritime strike aircraft, equipped with BMos variants and LRCMs, plus several SSNs and SSKs, will make it extremely hostile for any intruding CBG into the IOR.It will ( SSGN/SSN) in addition give us the ability to conduct offensive operations in the ICS.We should be able to base all naval asset types in any bases that we may lease or be slowed to operate from in ASEAN nations like Vietnam, the Phillippines, Indonesia,etc. The ANC islands should be our eastern forward base of operations just as Hawaii, Guam,etc. are for the US in the Pacific. Similarly, Lakshadwwep should be upgraded in it facilities. We will also,have somedecent level of forward naval ops. with islands and base facilities permitted by Mauritius,Oman,etc.,just as China will enjoy at Djibouti,Gwadar/ Jiwani, etc.

A strong sub fleet which includes several SSGN/ SSN subs which can conduct stealthy 90 day patrols in the Indo- Pacific waters, apart from AIP subs operating out of the ANC , will be able to cause far more damage to the enemy than any more vulnerable and detectable CBG.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8258
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby brar_w » 14 Jan 2020 23:49

Japan is able to effectively operate fast jets from the Izumo because of the F-35B (combat ops) and V-22 (combat support, Mission and Recovery tanking, and COD). The same will probably be true for Singapore, South Korea and others who will be operationalizing similar concepts in the near-medium term. The F-35B while operating in STOVL mode off of a flat-top gets better range-payload than the F/A-18 from a carrier (With 2 JDAM's and 2 AMRAAM's, it gets in excess of 850 km combat-range with a 470 ft. STO and in excess of 900 km combat range when operating from land or a longer deck (ski) etc) If you operate non STOVL fast-jets off of smaller flat tops, you are going to be compromising performance (range/payload and sortie generation and weapons carriage). The idea is not to filed complements for the sake of fielding complements but to field a complementary force that is credible and can undertake the sort of missions that a similarly shaped force would logically be asked to perform.

Manish_Sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4293
Joined: 07 Sep 2009 16:17

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Manish_Sharma » 15 Jan 2020 01:22

https://m.economictimes.com/news/defenc ... ssion=true

Indian Navy, Ministry of Defence in a tussle over biggest submarine project
At the centre of the controversy is the Rs 45,000-cr submarine contest for the Navy—referred to as P 75I—that will see the winning Indian entity producing six submarines domestically with a foreign technology partner. The contract is being process...
By Manu Pubby, ET

NEW DELHI: A tussle has erupted over the biggest ‘Make in India’ project after the navy refrained from going ahead with a joint public-private bid while the defence ministry has emphasised that such teaming arrangements should be considered, as per procurement guidelines.
At the centre of the controversy is the Rs 45,000-cr submarine contest for the Navy—referred to as P 75I—that will see the winning Indian entity producing six submarines domestically with a foreign technology partner. The contract is being processed under the ‘strategic partnership model’.

V_Raman
BRFite
Posts: 580
Joined: 04 Sep 2008 22:25

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby V_Raman » 15 Jan 2020 01:28

F35B is a game changer. most of the western world and countries using western weapons will have ships carrying them very soon! helicopter carrier style ships are easy to get and many countries make them already (eg. Spain)!

Current style carriers will become obsolete pretty soon for most of the countries.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8258
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby brar_w » 15 Jan 2020 01:38

V_Raman wrote:F35B is a game changer. most of the western world and countries using western weapons will have ships carrying them very soon! helicopter carrier style ships are easy to get and many countries make them already (eg. Spain)!

Current style carriers will become obsolete pretty soon for most of the countries.


Try to dig up a comparison I did to an aviation designed amphibious flat top and a large Aircraft carrier. The difference is more stark then one would think, almost to a point where you can't call the latter a proper carrier. It is great as a force multiplier alongside a carrier capability but it is not a direct substitute for an aircraft carrier for a vast number of the missions an AC can potentially perform.

V_Raman
BRFite
Posts: 580
Joined: 04 Sep 2008 22:25

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby V_Raman » 15 Jan 2020 01:51

will do. my thought is around countries like India where carrier is mainly used for fleet defense. if a flat top can carry ~30 F35B - is there a significant difference?

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8258
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby brar_w » 15 Jan 2020 01:54

I don't think the IN envisions the role of an Aircraft Carrier in the future to be purely fleet defense. A value of an AC is to be able to morph (via its air-wing) to meet the current and evolving national security needs. See how the USN pivoted its Carrier force to essentially a large PGM delivering Strike Force post SU collapse because that was the need of the hour. Similarly, as Chinese capability increases they'll again morph it into something that is better suited for the projected needs. Again, same carriers..different capability that can both scale, and change qualitatively through introduction of FGFA, UCAV's etc..This is an advantage of a larger, or more optimized carrier. An aviation focused ambhib., while might look like a carrier, can barely generate a fourth of the sustained sorties of a large carrier and sustain it for about 1/3 of the duration (if not even less).

LHA-6 (US Aviation designed flat-top) has a 16,000 cubic feet magazine (for weapons). In comparison, the Ford (CVN-21 design) has 375,000 cubic feet magazine - roughly 23 times larger. The Ford also carries about 3-million gallons of fuel, enough to sustain operations for about 2 full weeks before needing a top up. LHA-6 probably requires multiple resupplies a week just to sustain its rather modest combat operations. Again, not demeaning the fast jet ambhib capability here. It is a good force multiplier and allows for some innovative deployment and operational scenarios that wouldn't be possible if one just had large AC's. However, when you see them by themselves and the capability they bring..then you begin to see their limitations.

pushkar.bhat
BRFite
Posts: 291
Joined: 29 Mar 2008 19:27
Location: prêt à monter dans le Arihant
Contact:

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby pushkar.bhat » 15 Jan 2020 15:05

kit wrote:OT but I do not think India has the luxury anymore., Of having a defensive posture vs China and offensive against the pakis.. if fight is only in IOR India has advantages and disadvantages as well.. how are you going open a flank at China's vulnerable eastern sea board with land and air forces .. ? If land based assets are being considered a good idea would be to have a naval Base in Japan !!


Lets just say that we have both assets and friends. PLA Navy is wise to stay in the South China Sea.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20418
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 15 Jan 2020 19:59

We don't have US global expeditionary ambitions.Our crises would be much smaller ,shorter duration and would requiresmaller warships and flat tops.If we did, like the Brits,who stillthink that they have a global role toplay,hitching a ride on the US wagon,larger CVs are preferable. The French have the CDG under 50K t, and just one CV too.After the fall of E.Pakistan and birthof Bangladesh, the IN's maintask is to bottleupthe PN, destroy as much of it as possible and prevent any joint ops betweenthe PLAN and PN.However, once Gwadar, Jiwani and the Djibouti bases are complete,a permanent PLAN naval presence will be established.The IN has to increase the number of warships and subs primarily, andbuild the multi- role amphibs for any amphib. ops involving our islands or other island states and littoral nations with whom we have mutual defence agreements like Mauritius.

The IN must get a larger share of the def
budget.China has given top priority to its navy.Why can't the GOI learn from this and history? Any Himalayan adventure by China would be most difficult given the terrain, huge logistic challenge and great difficulty in holding onto terrain indefinitely.Its sabre- rattling is a diversion to force us to spend hugr amounts on the IA while it relentlessly mass produces warships and subs like burgers and fries, or rather dim- sum and hot- pots.

Its new Type 055 DDG of 10K t, is more heavily armed than our 7500K t DDGs of the P-15B class.There are not enough missiles aboard, compared with the 055's 112+ missile silos for a mix of missiles. The P-15Bs also do not carry a secondary anti- air/ missile missile.Saturation attacks will quickly deplete the B-8 s
carried..A complete reassessment of the UW challenges of thf next 2+ decades needs to be done so that the sub-fleet is modernised asap with extra subs and upgraded existing ones too.
The designforthe desi SSN must be accelerated with Russia as partner as ot did for the Arihant SSBN programme and Akula leases.

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3667
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby kit » 15 Jan 2020 20:24

pushkar.bhat wrote:
kit wrote:OT but I do not think India has the luxury anymore., Of having a defensive posture vs China and offensive against the pakis.. if fight is only in IOR India has advantages and disadvantages as well.. how are you going open a flank at China's vulnerable eastern sea board with land and air forces .. ? If land based assets are being considered a good idea would be to have a naval Base in Japan !!


Lets just say that we have both assets and friends. PLA Navy is wise to stay in the South China Sea.


There are no "friends" in geopolitics. Push comes to shove everyone will try save their ass.

India needs power projection capabilities if its desire is to control IOR. There are no two ways about this. Land-based assets will be the first targets in a full-blown war.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20418
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 15 Jan 2020 23:38

Land-based mobile LR missiles will be hard to find and bases will be heavily defended by layered air defences,dispersed aircraft,etc. Once detected by a combo of sats,long endurance HALE/MALE UAVs,LRMP aircraft, ground and shipborne sensors and subs, any CBG/ task force will face saturation attacks from various naval assets and ground- based missiles too.Surviving will be tough.

Finding subs will be toughest, why China's 80+ subs, Pak's 8 to 12, in combo will pose a very tough time for the IN.The plan of having just 24 subs is woefully inadequate.China will station at least 8 subs on a permanent basis in the IOR using the bases it has in Pak,etc. It's gameplan to resolve the Malacca dilemma includes stationing a strong element of its fleet permanently in the IOR just as Russia is doing in the Meditt. at Tartus in Syria.A flotilla of its Black Sea fleet reinforced with vessels from the Baltic and northern fleets in rotation, allow it to position sufficient numbers in the Meditt. outside the Dardenelles and Bosphorous chokepoints.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2847
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby nam » 15 Jan 2020 23:49

Does anyone know what is making P15B cost more than a billion? Is it due to foreign items or build delay escalating the cost?

At 1.2B they are very expensive. even if 200M is saved from each P15B, you will enough money for TEDBF program or even get another destroyer.

IN is simply throwing away it's budget, with such expensive vessels.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2901
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby tsarkar » 16 Jan 2020 00:00

nam wrote:Does anyone know what is making P15B cost more than a billion? Is it due to foreign items or build delay escalating the cost?

At 1.2B they are very expensive. even if 200M is saved from each P15B, you will enough money for TEDBF program or even get another destroyer.

IN is simply throwing away it's budget, with such expensive vessels.


Includes yard modernization & automation expenses as well as Uber Expensive MF STAR radar with BMD capabilities that is comparable to AEGIS and much superior to anything elsewhere, including European. Only the US has superior tech. We're essentially funding the entire development for the Israelis and that cost is reflected here. Similar to how we funded Su-30MKI and MiG-29K/MiG-35 and were about to fund Su-57.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20418
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 16 Jan 2020 00:07

Are you sure that we're in truth funding STAR? B-8 to my mind is a programme where we're spending out of our pockets most, which was also a single- vendor decision for a JV,mainly Iaraeli tech., that sneaked through without comment.There was no competition for the req. and the delivery was late. MKI funding was improving an already flying 2- seat Flanker,trainer version of the SU-27. I think it was ACM Sareen (?) who was the visionary who got us the same.

Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5380
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Karthik S » 16 Jan 2020 00:07

tsarkar wrote:Includes yard modernization & automation expenses as well as Uber Expensive MF STAR radar with BMD capabilities that is comparable to AEGIS and much superior to anything elsewhere, including European. Only the US has superior tech. We're essentially funding the entire development for the Israelis and that cost is reflected here. Similar to how we funded Su-30MKI and MiG-29K/MiG-35 and were about to fund Su-57.


tsarkar sir, can desi MF STAR be developed from LRTR ?

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2901
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby tsarkar » 16 Jan 2020 00:12

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 259960.cms
The interception range of the supersonic Barak-NG missile systems, for instance, has been increased from the earlier 70 km to around 100 km

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2901
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby tsarkar » 16 Jan 2020 00:14

Karthik S wrote:tsarkar sir, can desi MF STAR be developed from LRTR ?

Yes it can from Revati and reusing algorithms from other programs. But LRDE has too many programs in hand already.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2847
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby nam » 16 Jan 2020 02:12

There is one MF-Star style radar coming up..in fact a massive one.

Image

It is this:

Image

Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2439
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Vips » 16 Jan 2020 02:57

Indian Navy trims acquisition list due to Budget cuts.

With budget cuts hitting hard, the Navy is pulling back on procurement of combat systems, cutting down on the numbers planned to be acquired in some cases and foreclosing other projects that have hit a dead end.

The rationalisation process, which is likely to be approved by the defence ministry, has been initiated after consecutive budgets where projected demands of the Navy have not been met. In the current budget, for example, the Navy was allocated Rs 41,259 crore against the projected amount of Rs 64,307 crore, which officials say is not even adequate to continue annual payments for acquisition contracts already signed.

Sources told ET the Navy is cutting down the number of Mine Counter Measure Vessels (MCMVs) it wanted to acquire from the original 12 warships to eight. The contract, given on nomination to the Goa Shipyard Limited, was originally pegged at Rs 32,000 crore which will now be brought down.

Similarly, it is planning to cut down the acquisition of Kamov KA 31 early warning helicopters to six, from 10. These choppers are deployed from large combatants such as the aircraft carrier to significantly increase the detection range for incoming enemy units.

The project was originally pegged at Rs 3,600 crore. In November, the Navy had cut down the number of P8 I reconnaissance it requires from the US under a Foreign Military Sales pact to 6 (10). The original contract was pegged at Rs 21,000 cr, which would be cut after the rationalisation process.

John
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2281
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 16 Jan 2020 03:15

There is one MF-Star style radar coming up..in fact a massive one

Looks too big for a mast, perhaps as a long range air search radar and our replacement for LW-08 rather than using indra radar. Should complement XR-SAM in ABM role.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4400
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby srai » 16 Jan 2020 03:16

^^^
IMO, the IA needs to cut back instead. Budget is not sufficient for all the excess manpower and pensions. Lean, mean and modern.

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3667
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby kit » 16 Jan 2020 17:50

tsarkar wrote:
nam wrote:Does anyone know what is making P15B cost more than a billion? Is it due to foreign items or build delay escalating the cost?

At 1.2B they are very expensive. even if 200M is saved from each P15B, you will enough money for TEDBF program or even get another destroyer.

IN is simply throwing away it's budget, with such expensive vessels.


Includes yard modernization & automation expenses as well as Uber Expensive MF STAR radar with BMD capabilities that is comparable to AEGIS and much superior to anything elsewhere, including European. Only the US has superior tech. We're essentially funding the entire development for the Israelis and that cost is reflected here. Similar to how we funded Su-30MKI and MiG-29K/MiG-35 and were about to fund Su-57.


lets not go overboard with MFSTAR tech, the SAMPSON on board the RN is currently one of the most capable, with RN crowing about its prowess as better than the AEGIS.
Besides with the tech progressing at the rate as it is in half a decade, it will be surpassed by AEGIS and SPY 6 radars coming to Australias Hobart destroyers.

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3667
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby kit » 16 Jan 2020 17:52

John wrote:
There is one MF-Star style radar coming up..in fact a massive one

Looks too big for a mast, perhaps as a long range air search radar and our replacement for LW-08 rather than using indra radar. Should complement XR-SAM in ABM role.



its not too big , have a look at the SAMPSON

Image

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13144
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby pankajs » 16 Jan 2020 18:13

cross-post .. in the context of our IOR deterrence.

https://twitter.com/drajaykumar_ias/sta ... 2158379008
Ajay Kumar @drajaykumar_ias

Rajnath Singh to inaugurate induction of Su-30 fighter squadron with Brahmos in Tanjavur Tamilnadu

https://www.livemint.com/news/india/raj ... 93880.html
The newly resurrected 222 Squadron would be operationalised with Brahmos-equipped Sukhoi-30 air superiority fighter with twin engine, the officials said. "The Indian Ocean Region (IOR) which is a central maritime spread, bordering three continents, has an important role to play in regional peace, security and prosperity. The IAF is an intrinsically strategic force and is set to extend the reach into the vast IOR," Tiwari said.

The 'Tigersharks', equipped with formidable, state-of- the-art air superiority fighter aircraft, which are armed with 2.5 ton air-launched BrahMos missile of 300 km range, have the capability to strike from large stand-off ranges on any target at sea or on land with pin-point accuracy by day or night and in all weather conditions.

The capability of the missile, coupled with superlative performance of the Su-30 MKI, is set to change the paradigm of maritime surveillance, security and strike in the region.

1. As expected, Su-MKI with Brahmos will act as an security umbrella against Sea-based threats.
2. Air-launched Brahmos development is complete and it is nearing induction.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2847
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby nam » 16 Jan 2020 19:08

John wrote:
There is one MF-Star style radar coming up..in fact a massive one

Looks too big for a mast, perhaps as a long range air search radar and our replacement for LW-08 rather than using indra radar. Should complement XR-SAM in ABM role.


If it is S band, then it is a case of using the same algorithms in to a smaller antenna with lesser number of TRM.

As long as we have a sea going radar on a ship, we can always modify it in to another version..

Pretty sure XRSAM will be loaded on to P15Bs in the future.

Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5380
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Karthik S » 16 Jan 2020 19:15

nam wrote:Pretty sure XRSAM will be loaded on to P15Bs in the future.


Do you think the present VLS will be able to accommodate larger XRSAM?

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2847
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby nam » 16 Jan 2020 19:42

Karthik S wrote:
nam wrote:Pretty sure XRSAM will be loaded on to P15Bs in the future.


Do you think the present VLS will be able to accommodate larger XRSAM?


Nope. However the space taken by Barak8 VLS is very small and there is enough space around it to increase the size. May be a UVLS is already in the plans to accommodate Brahmos, Nirbhay, XRSAM.

John
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2281
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 16 Jan 2020 20:02

nam wrote:
Karthik S wrote:
Do you think the present VLS will be able to accommodate larger XRSAM?


Nope. However the space taken by Barak8 VLS is very small and there is enough space around it to increase the size. May be a UVLS is already in the plans to accommodate Brahmos, Nirbhay, XRSAM.

Depends on if XR SAM is based on Barak 8 ER if so latter is designed to be fitted on Barak 8 launchers.


lets not go overboard with MFSTAR tech, the SAMPSON on board the RN is currently one of the most capable, with RN crowing about its prowess as better than the AEGIS.


MF Star is superior to Sampson IMO primarily because later doesn't offer 360 degree coverage and requires high rpm which still cannot negate the advantage continous tracking MF-STAR can provide. Sure it's overall specs are likely to be superior and RN decided to compensate because of high mast placement Sampson offers compared to SPY radar. But smaller size of MF STAR already allows high mast placement.

I do agree we do need to develop new radar to replace LW-08 not sure how much we are spending importing the radar from Indra.
Last edited by John on 16 Jan 2020 20:12, edited 1 time in total.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2901
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby tsarkar » 16 Jan 2020 20:11

kit wrote:lets not go overboard with MFSTAR tech, the SAMPSON on board the RN is currently one of the most capable, with RN crowing about its prowess as better than the AEGIS. Besides with the tech progressing at the rate as it is in half a decade, it will be surpassed by AEGIS and SPY 6 radars coming to Australias Hobart destroyers.

You’re entitled to your views and I to mine. Also let’s keep this thread to Indian Navy and take whatever everyone else is doing to the International Naval thread. Cheers!

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8258
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby brar_w » 16 Jan 2020 23:06

kit wrote:
tsarkar wrote:
Includes yard modernization & automation expenses as well as Uber Expensive MF STAR radar with BMD capabilities that is comparable to AEGIS and much superior to anything elsewhere, including European. Only the US has superior tech. We're essentially funding the entire development for the Israelis and that cost is reflected here. Similar to how we funded Su-30MKI and MiG-29K/MiG-35 and were about to fund Su-57.


lets not go overboard with MFSTAR tech, the SAMPSON on board the RN is currently one of the most capable, with RN crowing about its prowess as better than the AEGIS.
Besides with the tech progressing at the rate as it is in half a decade, it will be surpassed by AEGIS and SPY 6 radars coming to Australias Hobart destroyers.


Discussed below -
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7088&start=1600#p2407694

Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5380
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Karthik S » 16 Jan 2020 23:21

brar_w wrote:Discussed below -
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7088&start=1600#p2407694


brar_w sir, given our XRSAM will have ABM capabilities, do you think MF_STAR will be enough for the role, just like AEGIS is designed for both AAM and ABM defense?

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8258
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby brar_w » 16 Jan 2020 23:24

Karthik S wrote:
brar_w wrote:Discussed below -
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7088&start=1600#p2407694


brar_w sir, given our XRSAM will have ABM capabilities, do you think MF_STAR will be enough for the role, just like AEGIS is designed for both AAM and ABM defense?


Depends what one is looking to do, what the density of the requirements is going to be etc. etc. etc. A 3m MFSTAR can certainly be enough for certain uses and not enough for others pretty much like anything else. Comparing SPY-6 V1 to SPY-1B for example, the former is capable of detecting 1/2 the RCS at double the range of the latter. Yet they still needed a 14 ft. radar vs a 12 ft on the new ships. The radar size, performance, and characteristics are dictated by requirements around target sets, target performance, mission diversity, and capacity to provide broad area and self-defense. When you add diversity via varying target types (like Space intercepts, terminal ballistic missile defense, and sea-skimming targets) and then also demand an increasing count of targets that must be efficiently dealt with - this combination really impacts the footprint of the sensor you have to use. Technically, even a ground based Air Defense sized sensor (medium ranged radar) can provide Ballistic Missile Defense capability. Yet the naval sensors tasked with this role are many times more powerful because of not only the threat type but also the sheer number of tasks these sensors must be able to address concurrently. The sensor footprint is often a reflection on the most stressing raid-scenario the system is expected to attempt to defeat (at least this is the case on larger destroyer classes).

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2847
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby nam » 16 Jan 2020 23:49

I do agree we do need to develop new radar to replace LW-08 not sure how much we are spending importing the radar from Indra.


BEL was showing off a GaN based C band search radar, which it supposed to have "co-develop" with Saab.

No idea, why it was not considered by IN.

May be IN considered Indra radars to be more mature.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8258
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby brar_w » 17 Jan 2020 00:00

A C-band radar is not going to be an optimal solution as a replacement of a low frequency (L Band) surveillance radar from both a performance stand-point (scanning volume etc) and an efficiency stand-point (power, weight and cooling).

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2847
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby nam » 17 Jan 2020 00:05

That is a good point. I forget the search radar are L band. I guess the C band was developed as a upgrade option for ships, which cannot take on MF-Star.

But then there is no SAM option, if it was to consider as the primary radar. Only BEL can tell us what was it doing with a C band.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8258
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby brar_w » 17 Jan 2020 00:08

L through S is a good range for effectively performing search. S-band is the most popular because it can very efficiently and effectively do both and hence the popular choice across applications large and small. Yes, a C-band radar would be a good option on smaller vessels that require a smaller footprint. The USN operates a C-band GaN on its Corvette/LCS ships for example because a larger S band radar would come with quite a bit of Space and Weight penalty. The Germans and others likewise use similar types on Corvettes and Frigates..

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20418
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 17 Jan 2020 00:41

The IN is v.sadly trimming its acquisitions because of the pitiable navy budget ,says a report while its chief, Adm.Karambir Singh says that we are " watching" the increased Chin activity in the IOR.
Well watching is going to be the IN's future pastime as the MCM requirement is now down to 8 from 12 and the KA-31 AEW helos of which 10 were needed down to 6 from 10.

No news about other plannned and critical acquisitions,but a controversy has erupted over the P-75I shortlisting by the IN. The IN had shortlisted MDL and L&T yards for production of the P-75i
class of subs,omitting others such as Adani. However, Adani is allegedly been added to the shortlist by the GOI/MOD,allegddly circumventing govt. norms for the same. This is being pointed out by the oppn. today. I think Adani had tied up with HSL for the project.L& T have a good track record of delivery.They have apart from small naval vessels delivered on time, have built around half of the K-9 howitzers contracted for,congratulated by the DM.
Last edited by Philip on 17 Jan 2020 02:47, edited 1 time in total.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AshimSharma, ssaravanan, yensoy and 50 guests