Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 07 Jan 2020 02:11

I have always wondered why the default assumption for media folks is to assume that if a product is shown to be under development that matches a western product superficially, then it simply MUST be ToT or some handout from said western company. The thought that it could be convergent design involving similar solutions to similar problems just doesn't occur within said mentality. Its quite frustrating.

srai · Post by **srai** » 07 Jan 2020 03:07

^^^
Comes down to Inferiority complex. Will take a while yet to slowly change the commonly held mindsets.

mahadevbhu · Post by **mahadevbhu** » 11 Jan 2020 10:20

Mirage 2000:mirage 4000: Rafale

YF16:YF17:F16:F18

F16 got copied into the JF17 and all the other Korean and Taiwanese designs.

Mig29:35: Su27:30:35 series

LCA 1: 2:Navy:tedbf series.

F35: Korean 5th gen, Chinese 5th gen.

These are the series of developments which have taken place.. similarity exists between aircraft from the same design house / country more than across nations, though some users like Korea and Taiwan have copied what they have used like the F16.

Wouldn't be a bad idea to take a good look at the F35 for the AMCA.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 03 Feb 2020 01:05

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/12 ... 1573549057

#MWF Mock-Up at #DefenceExpo2020

This engineering cockpit simulator of Medium Weight Fighter is embedded with LAD (large area display), sleek HUD (Head-Up Display) and a side stick (joystick on pilot’s side console).

nam · Post by **nam** » 03 Feb 2020 01:18

There will be lot of heart burn among the Su30 boys.. seeing the desi cockpit..

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 03 Feb 2020 01:31

nam wrote:There will be lot of heart burn among the Su30 boys.. seeing the desi cockpit..

Why?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 03 Feb 2020 01:34

A better video:
https://twitter.com/i/status/1224050029838532609

nam · Post by **nam** » 03 Feb 2020 01:41

Cain Marko wrote:
nam wrote:There will be lot of heart burn among the Su30 boys.. seeing the desi cockpit..
Why?

HAL has shown the Su upgrade cockpit. It is still very russian... compared to that MWF cockpit is very TFTA!

Wonder why HAL did not consider the wide HUD as seen on MWF for Super Su30

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 03 Feb 2020 05:48

nam wrote:
Cain Marko wrote: Why?
HAL has shown the Su upgrade cockpit. It is still very russian... compared to that MWF cockpit is very TFTA!

Wonder why HAL did not consider the wide HUD as seen on MWF for Super Su30

I see. Thanks. Any links to the super 30 pit? If have thought it would be v. Similar to pakfa or su35? Didn't know the specs were firmed up on that yet.

Btw, what are the advantages of a side stick? Iirc the f16 too boasts this arrangement?

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 03 Feb 2020 06:08

MK2 cockpit is not final-finalized. They are still making stuff in virtual and physical space and people looking around them. There is some space constraint which need some innovative solutions. LAD, sleek HUD and the central MFD are confirmed.

DefExpo will have some surprise entries in this department. I will post photus.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Feb 2020 07:53

https://twitter.com/arvmishr/status/122 ... 57088?s=20 ---> Sir, What is your opinion about F21? Will it be good and cost effective for India?

Reply below from Group Captain HV Thakur (retd) to above question....

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12241 ... 13152?s=20 ---> Seems to have incorporated new tech into the workhorse, quite well. It'll be a good performer in the category of LCA Mk-2. If inducted ASAP, it'll enter service ~5 years ahead of Mk-2, terminating the need for Mk-2 altogether. We've to deliberate & choose our path carefully.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Feb 2020 08:54

vivek_ahuja wrote:I have always wondered why the default assumption for media folks is to assume that if a product is shown to be under development that matches a western product superficially, then it simply MUST be ToT or some handout from said western company. The thought that it could be convergent design involving similar solutions to similar problems just doesn't occur within said mentality. Its quite frustrating.

It's quite simple actually. Indian MSM has nothing original to say about anything. Their worldview, politics, principles and sometimes entire articles are lifted in-toto from the West and forcefully shoehorned into the Indian context. It's just human nature to project own viewpoint onto others. 'copied from the west' is thus a default assumption with DDM since it's what they themselves are doing.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 03 Feb 2020 09:35

https://t.co/CLgABHrFlT?amp=1

Nose probe removed for better radar performance radome.

1800 kg class standoff weapon Rudra M3 can be carried

8 BVR missiles can be carried

Better intakes. MAWS

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 03 Feb 2020 10:16

India’s Medium Weight Fighter set to fly into detail design phase
Anantha Krishnan M

https://english.manoramaonline.com/news ... ssion=true

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 03 Feb 2020 10:43

I will stick my neck out and say this.

If Indian aircraft MIC must have a future, the MMRCA 2.0 project must be killed & publicly at that. @hvtiaf's comment reiterates the point. If we bring in F-21, Gripen or any such fighter into the mix, it will kill or at the very least castrate our MK2/MIC.

A public cancellation of MMRCA 2.0 also sends a signal internally (to IAF, ADA, HAL) and externally that we are confident to forge our own path. The Tejas MK1 success deserves this vote of confidence at least! If we do not have the courage to make even this level of commitment to desi MIC, we can be sure that it will forever be stillborn.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 03 Feb 2020 10:52

I will support you and put my neck on the block for the domestic MIC.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 03 Feb 2020 11:18

ashishvikas wrote:India’s Medium Weight Fighter set to fly into detail design phase
Anantha Krishnan M

https://english.manoramaonline.com/news ... ssion=true

Excellent writeup.

sankum wrote:https://t.co/CLgABHrFlT?amp=1

Nose probe removed for better radar performance radome.

1800 kg class standoff weapon Rudra M3 can be carried

8 BVR missiles can be carried

Better intakes. MAWS

Yes, very nice video. The intake has not been finalized yet. They did one more iteration after the canted splitter. That actually looked like Gripen's splitter. And now I am hearing possibilities of DSI.

nash · Post by **nash** » 03 Feb 2020 14:46

ashishvikas wrote:India’s Medium Weight Fighter set to fly into detail design phase
Anantha Krishnan M

https://english.manoramaonline.com/news ... ssion=true

It says metal cutting from April 2021, I heard that will start this month only.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 03 Feb 2020 15:46

nash wrote:
ashishvikas wrote:India’s Medium Weight Fighter set to fly into detail design phase
Anantha Krishnan M

https://english.manoramaonline.com/news ... ssion=true
It says metal cutting from April 2021, I heard that will start this month only.

Nothing new.. change of schedule !!

Metal cutting, the first step in the start of commercial production, of the of indigenously made single-engine fighter plane Tejas (Mk-II) is scheduled for February 2020, according to Dr Girsh S Deodhare, director of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and head of the Tejas programme.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... UlX3K.html

nash · Post by **nash** » 03 Feb 2020 16:04

I can only hope that first flight happen atleast on first half of 2024, not a chance in september 2023, and they able to get IOC by 2028. In case if there is delay of 2-3 years, most likely to happen, then better sense prevails at that time and they order some extra squadron of Tejas-Mk1A.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 03 Feb 2020 16:06

8 BVR missile carrying capability

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 03 Feb 2020 17:30

So what is the metal cutting date? Feb 2020 or April 2021?

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 03 Feb 2020 19:47

I hope they exceed 3500 kgs of internal fuel..

17.5 = 8 k empty + 3.5 k fuel + 6.5 k payload (including pilot)

I also hope they push for cfts for mwf and try and get the usual 2500 - 3000 kgs fuel there instead of external tanks for all long range missions.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 03 Feb 2020 21:53

The interviewee said that the hardpoints are capable of carrying the Rudra-M heavy standoff missile. Then he said 1800 Kgs. Don't know what that meant - does Rudra-M weigh that much?

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 03 Feb 2020 21:55

sankum wrote:https://t.co/CLgABHrFlT?amp=1

Nose probe removed for better radar performance radome.

1800 kg class standoff weapon Rudra M3 can be carried

8 BVR missiles can be carried

Better intakes. MAWS

If ADA & HAL can work on this night and day, they are given additional resources to complete the fighter in time and start IOC planes induction in 5 years, it can save the IAF a lot of money while giving them great capabilities and also developing the countries aeronautical capabilities.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Feb 2020 23:10

Artist concept of all upcoming aerial manned/unmanned platforms...

https://twitter.com/saptarshichand8/sta ... 20/photo/1

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Feb 2020 23:43

The beauty of the above picture is that one can see the developmental history of India's aviation MIC.

From Tejas TD ---> Tejas PV ---> Tejas LSP ---> Tejas SP to now Tejas SPORT, MWF, ORCA/TEDBF, AMCA, Ghatak, Rustom-II, Wingman, etc....

How much of this would have been achieved if the life was snuffed out of the Tejas program?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 04 Feb 2020 00:23

chola wrote:
srin wrote:Interesting to see what engines they have in mind. It can't be two F-414s or even F-404s if they are looking at modified MWF. Two F125INs or HTFE-25++ ?
The official statement about TEDBF asks for the development of a 110kN medium engine that currently doesn't exists anywhere. Not even in the US or Russia. That is the achilles heel of the project.

Are you sure that is for TEDBF and not the AMCA? The TEDBF seems to be roughly the size of a Rafale. Why in allah's name would they need 220kN thrust on it? Seems overkill. 2 F-414-IN20's should be more than enough. The Rafale-M makes do with much less than that. Of course the TEDBF will need to take off with sufficient payload from a STOBAR carrier so will need extra thrust. EVen so, 2 F-414's should suffice.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 04 Feb 2020 00:27

A pair of 98+ kN turbofans should be more than sufficient for TEDBF/ORCA.

chola · Post by **chola** » 04 Feb 2020 00:29

nachiket wrote:
chola wrote:
The official statement about TEDBF asks for the development of a 110kN medium engine that currently doesn't exists anywhere. Not even in the US or Russia. That is the achilles heel of the project.
Are you sure that is for TEDBF and not the AMCA? The TEDBF seems to be roughly the size of a Rafale. Why in allah's name would they need 220kN thrust on it? Seems overkill. 2 F-414-IN20's should be more than enough. The Rafale-M makes do with much less than that. Of course the TEDBF will need to take off with sufficient payload from a STOBAR carrier so will need extra thrust. EVen so, 2 F-414's should suffice.

Yes, I was wrong on that one. The 110kN is for the AMCA not the TEDBF which is based on the F-414.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 04 Feb 2020 01:02

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/12 ... 29217?s=20 ----> Medium Weight Fighter....

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 04 Feb 2020 01:07

The fuselage centre weapon station is rated for 1800 kg payload.
Can anyone get the payload of other pylons from defexpo 2020.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 04 Feb 2020 03:17

Yagnasri wrote:So what is the metal cutting date? Feb 2020 or April 2021?

It is March 2021 for MWF. IIRC, Feb 2020 is for Tejas MK 1A

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 04 Feb 2020 04:09

Rakesh wrote:The beauty of the above picture is that one can see the developmental history of India's aviation MIC.

From Tejas TD ---> Tejas PV ---> Tejas LSP ---> Tejas SP to now Tejas SPORT, MWF, ORCA/TEDBF, AMCA, Ghatak, Rustom-II, Wingman, etc....

How much of this would have been achieved if the life was snuffed out of the Tejas program?

Zero onleeee saar!

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 04 Feb 2020 04:56

Prem Kumar wrote:The interviewee said that the hardpoints are capable of carrying the Rudra-M heavy standoff missile. Then he said 1800 Kgs. Don't know what that meant - does Rudra-M weigh that much?

DEtails from some time back

Indranil wrote:Another set of missiles on which there has been a huge shroud of secrecy has been the Rudra II, Rudra IIA and Rudra III ASMs. They have been acknowledged:
1. air2surface missile to be tested from Su-30 with
2. 200 kg payload (for Rudra II)
3. Has IIR seeker.

P.S. Line drawing of the Rudra MIII from some DRDO tender.

Apparently 1.6 tons and hypersonic ballastic ASM missile

Indranil wrote:Additionally,another wild theory is that Rudra MIII is an offshoot of the upper stage of AD1.
1. Looks the same. See image below.
2. We know that AD-1 has to be capable of hypersonic flight.
3. Needs an IIR seeker
4. The dimensions make sense
5. The warhead choices make sense
6. The secrecy makes sense

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Feb 2020 10:00

https://twitter.com/IndianDefenceRA/sta ... 93153?s=19 ---> Beautiful render of MWF by @Kuntal__biswas

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 04 Feb 2020 12:32

Wow - thanks Indranil!

Much secrecy indeed. Wondering what the range/payload/target of such a standoff weapon will be. It weighs 70% of an air-launched Brahmos. I'd reckon that it will be somewhat like SCALP, with a 500-600 Km range and at least a 500 Kg warhead, for high value targets (maybe even a strategic payload). The schematic from Ananth Krishnan suggests a SCALP similarity. But if its a hypersonic missile, the similarity ends there.

hemant_sai · Post by **hemant_sai** » 04 Feb 2020 12:34

IMHO, TejasMK2/MWF must be followed in mission mode to achieve 2024 as timeline. If there is change of regime in 2024 - I am sure we can forget MWF for another decade.

Also it will be good if NaMo can place a mechanism in place before 2024 so that, Army will be empowered to push away political interference which is not in the nation's interest. It gives me shivers that progress of our Army is so much dependent on elections.

I also believe that more than corruption itself, military initiatives are sabotaged due to pro-pak/pro-chin elements in the system.
Why there doesn't seem to be any plan to counter it? Maybe almost all of them are painted green&red - and system itself will collapse?

We need urgency in the matters where we have more clarity on feasibility. e.g. MK1A/MWF/LCH - we simply cannot afford TIME - especially when we know it can be achieved.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Feb 2020 12:41

12 squadrons of MWF! Lot more info

https://english.manoramaonline.com/news ... r.amp.html

____added later

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 04 Feb 2020 19:14

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12246 ... 15810?s=20 ---> Mk-2 cockpit has a unique MFD below the large area display for control of Net-Centric Tactical Situation & the mother aircraft's Unmanned-Wingmen. Equipped with voice command, pilot's decision support system & AI-based displays, Mk-2 cockpit workstation is truly contemporary.

https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/122 ... 88545?s=20 ---> Here are some Cockpit Photos of the Fighters around the world resembling MWF's cockpit.