Project 75I - It Begins

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
John
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2508
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby John » 23 Jan 2020 14:34

kit wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Is the Navy still on with this fascination to launch BrahMos in VLS cells from Project 75I?

I suppose there will be some advantage in launching long range cruise or hypersonic weapons using VLS rather than the traditional launch tubes ?..

Having a VLS allows you to carry regular load of torpedoes and mines along with VLS missiles, also one doesn’t need to worry about the missile fitting in the torpedo tube. That said VLS launched Brahmos from subs is dead from what I have read and Brahmos M which can be launched from tubes was supposed to replace that.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21055
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 23 Jan 2020 16:15

I thoughtthey offered the Amur with mods for BMos,etc. and thd DRDO AIP system installed. I would like both German HuK U-boats plus BMos ,Kalibir and Shkval armed Ru conv.boats.Only an SSN combines all roles ,but at 3 to 4 timesthe cost.

John
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2508
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby John » 23 Jan 2020 18:34

Philip wrote:I thoughtthey offered the Amur with mods for BMos,etc. and thd DRDO AIP system installed. I would like both German HuK U-boats plus BMos ,Kalibir and Shkval armed Ru conv.boats.Only an SSN combines all roles ,but at 3 to 4 timesthe cost.

Amur with Brahmos VLS plug was a concept only if we had funded it would have gotten off the ground and we would have discovered all the challenges of fiting such a large payload on 2000 ton sub. But Amur is dead due to various issues plaguing Lada and Russia is likely to continue building Kilo and I doubt given the state of budget they can afford to codevelop a new class of submarines as part of P-75i.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9781
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 12 Feb 2020 04:45

Video: Naval Group Proposal For Indian Navy P-75I Submarine Project

Interview with Sylvain Defer, head of P-75I project at Naval Group, regarding the French proposal for the Indian Navy P-75I requirement.


Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9781
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 12 Feb 2020 04:47

Indian Navy's Hunt for Red October
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/indian-n ... fx3A%3D%3D
February 10, 2020

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9781
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 12 Feb 2020 04:52

After IAF Rafales, MBDA's Naval SCALP On ‘Super Scorpene’ For India’s Project 75I
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/02 ... t-75i.html
Feb 05, 2020

srin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2033
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:13

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby srin » 12 Feb 2020 15:53

I really hope this works out. And I'm really concerned that P75I is in trouble.

The SP Model of one winner who wins bigg and competes with MoD shipyard, has serious political risks. Also, with P75I being the pioneer of the SP Model, it'll be filled with process glitches that will bog the process down.

I wish we could continue on Scorpene line at MDL, while having P75I happened in parallel without MDL. Right now, there is no plan B, and we know how the MMRCA turned out.
Last edited by srin on 12 Feb 2020 17:42, edited 1 time in total.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21055
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 12 Feb 2020 16:19

The excruciating time being taken to build just 6 Scorpenes and increasing demands in OZ to dump the French mega sub non- nuclear Barracuda on many grounds, puts a big Q mark on anything from France.Don't forget the Scorpene data leaks too!

This contest may take a decade to conclude during which time at least 6 conv. subs will retire. I've said before we need two lines of conv.AIP subs built simultaneously in order that we acquire a fleet of around 16 to 24 new subs apart from our N-subs given the 70 to 80 new subs China alone will have.. G-to-G deals with Germany for a suitable U- boat design and Ru for the Amur/ Kilo replacement is also required. This is because some crucial eqpt./ weaponry can't be universal to western and Ru subs.
Eventually a fleet of around 6 to 8 Scorpenes- we can add 2 more to the fleet, 8 U-boats and 8 Kilo replacements from Russia.This way we will possess the best of both east and west and use the types to suit us best reg. deployment.The Arabian Sea has shallower waters than the Bay of Bengal. Our N-fleet for strat. deterrent and multi- ocean deployments.

G-2-G is the fastest way to equip the IN with its needs and replenish the sub fleet which right now has 13 ancient boats long in thf tooth,inferior to contemporary subs being acquired by many states in Asia,some much smaller than India.

John
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2508
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby John » 12 Feb 2020 19:24

Philip wrote:Ru for the Amur/ Kilo replacement is also required. This is because some crucial eqpt./ weaponry can't be universal to western and Ru subs.

Please stop spamming Amur it is dead design and even Russians Lada is stuck in limbo. Russians have moved onto another design but don’t have money to get off the ground. Only thing possible is more Kilos to maintain the numbers but at this point we are talking about a dated design (modifies U-209 is a better option but we threw that away) . Exercising the option to build more Scorpene is only option and hope P-75i get approved sometime this decade...

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21055
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 13 Feb 2020 01:37

Da Adm.Like the Akula which came without the missing mithai!

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4067
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby kit » 13 Feb 2020 03:51

Is there something that stops L&T from collaborating with the S koreans or HDW ? that could work out given the french penchant for leaking out all sorts of classified info, right from subs to fighter aircraft

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21055
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 16 Feb 2020 11:48

No.I think that after the winning design is selected, the yard that is best for building the boat,timeframe,cost,etc. would get the nod.
I would prefer MDL to build German U-boat replacements for our U-209s ,after perhaps 2 more Scorpenes, with L&T building a Ru design modified to our special needs like BMos,LRCM,etc.As I mentioned elsewhere,we had at one time 18 conv. boats in service, 10 Kilos,4 U-209s,and 4 Foxtrots.Out of our 14 subs in service,only 2 Scorpenes are new!" The balance 12 will have to be replaced in the near future.We've also given one Kilo to Burma remember. Therefore,just 6 P-75Is will be insufficient.We'll require two simultaneous lines just to replace our old subs let alone augment the number. The bare minimum in the context of the
PLAN's 70 to 80 plus Pak's 12+.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9781
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 21 Feb 2020 23:41

Submarine Project-75I: Strategic Partners Spoilt for Choice of Foreign OEMs
https://bharatshakti.in/submarine-proje ... eign-oems/
27 Jan 2020

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9781
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 21 Feb 2020 23:45

Tweet from Admiral Arun Prakash (retd), former CNS of the Indian Navy.

https://twitter.com/arunp2810/status/12 ... 29856?s=20 ---> In the context of Project 75I, a major DRDO achievement that has largely gone un-applauded is development of an indigenous AIP (Air Independent Propulsion) system which will go into new subs. Delivery of successful phosphoric acid fuel cell AIP will be a coup for DRDO-navy endeavours.

Response to the above tweet....

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 41792?s=20 ----> True that sir. First shot they get is on mid-life upgrade of Kalvari four years hence - hopefully should be ready by then.

Image

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21055
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 22 Feb 2020 08:53

Until it is tested in a sub or submersible device,at depths and conditions that regular subs operate,plus undergoing the standard explosive tests simulating depth charges , it will remain yet another expensive DRDO technology demonstrator.To expect the IN to fit such an untested device into one of its precious few subs is asinine.As I've repeated before,a G-2- G deal with Germany for a new AIP U- boat design to replace our old U-209/1500s should be entered into.The Tried and tested German AIP fuel cell AIP system is in service with almost 2 doz. subs.This AIP system,superior to the French MESMA could be fitted to then in case our desi system fails to appear.A second line of Ru subs to replace the Kilos should also begin. The DRDO system could go aboard an Indo- Ru boat which would carry wraponry and eqpt. not possible on a western boat for obvious reasons. Oncec our DRDO AIP system is perfected,tried and tested and if found superior and cheaper hhan a firang one,we could retrofit it to all of our subs later on.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12415
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Aditya_V » 22 Feb 2020 13:18

How is German design tried and tested? and how did become tried and tested if it can be ascertained- at some point you need to try it to become tried and tested, subs which still have battery power left can test this, thats how it will become tried and tested.

Before 1944 even Jet fighters were untried and untested. IN and DRDO are on the right path for us to develop our SSP's. Your post with due respect please read is like saying a student has failed without him attending the exam and foreign student should be given the job.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21055
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 22 Feb 2020 14:22

German AIP U-boats based upon the U-209 like the 212,214,etc., are in service with several navies and have been for many years.If that isn't being true and tested, being bought by several foreign countries,then I don't know what is. The issue here is how the untried DRDO AIP system can be retrofitted within a few years onto our Scorpenes when they have not undergone x full testing regime like any other sub.It takes around one year of strenuous harbour and ocean testing before a sub is handed over. The IN it was reported, delayed accepting the second Scorpene because of defects. Hence the above line of action.

We're happily buying US ASW helos in a G-2-G deal at high cost per unit in a "no contesto" deal , so why can't we do the same with German U-boats to replace the 1980's era 209s?

Sales to Greece,Turkey,Portugal,Italy,Israel,SoKo, with Indonesia negotiating SoKo built U-214s.Apart from the newer AIP boats,German U-boats have been sold to Argentina,India,S.Africa,etc.

The advantage of thd German fuel-cell AIP system over others like MESMA,Stirling system, is higher power output,giving higher speeds, plus no moving parts enhancing stealth.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12415
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Aditya_V » 22 Feb 2020 16:12

US is one of few partners we have a trade surplus with, they buy many items from us which itself gives them leverage. Let Germany allow migration at the same rate. Plus Helicopters are much cheaper than Subs, over time we will buy our IMRH.

And apart Germans we are the only ones who developing Fuel cell tech. Let's take this investment to its logical conclusion.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9781
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 22 Feb 2020 19:58

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 66080?s=20 ---> Model worth considering. Brazil’s S-BR/SN-BR prog. Can be done by us, but indigenously. P-76 + IN SSN. Single program. Bring down costs.

Image

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9781
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 22 Feb 2020 20:05

https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/123 ... 23907?s=20 ----> At Def Expo 2020, Naval Group showcased SMX 3.0. Kalvari P-75, SMX 3.0 under P-75I and a nuclear powered version of it as SSN...will Indian Navy go forward with this approach?

https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/122 ... 09088?s=20 ---> SMX 3.0 specs....

Length: 85 metres
Displacement: 3,000 Ton (surface)
Max Depth: >350 m
FC2G AIP, Autonomy: 42+ days
Weapons: 30 (8 VLS)
Range: 14816+ km

Image

Image

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4891
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby chola » 22 Feb 2020 20:06

^^^ WOW! That model is very cool. With 8 VLS! I hope the IN go with it.

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4067
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby kit » 22 Feb 2020 20:11

I would expect a new gen SSN to sport pumpjet propulsion esp when nuclear.

krishna_krishna
BRFite
Posts: 873
Joined: 23 Oct 2006 04:14

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby krishna_krishna » 22 Feb 2020 20:18

Posting as it relates to indian submarine. Brazil convened submarine into stretched SSN, I believe Australia would also be taking similar route :

https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/1230854865661943809

krishna_krishna
BRFite
Posts: 873
Joined: 23 Oct 2006 04:14

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby krishna_krishna » 22 Feb 2020 20:42

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/1230864926115323907?s=20 ----> At Def Expo 2020, Naval Group showcased SMX 3.0. Kalvari P-75, SMX 3.0 under P-75I and a nuclear powered version of it as SSN...will Indian Navy go forward with this approach?



I do not believe so, SMX-26 was very futuristic concept of submarine with mothership concept and several midget submarine attached to the it for all together a combined force multiplier effect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM2x5QraDRU

This SMX 3.0 version is the same version I believe at least from the looks what they offered to Australian navy a stretched scorpene design which is languishing with design issues , which we should not fall for.

The barracuda is the real deal if we get some ToT there or else we should come up with our own version of stretched U-boat, r kilo class why would we pay for Leaked design the parameters for which are already with our enemies. That is my objection to having them in P-75I as well it should be a different design.

We can have Naval Group upgrade scorpene /rectify this with different kit for free and we should make three of these improved scorpenes at MDL and get done with it.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9781
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 22 Feb 2020 22:27

The best option, IMVHO, is the German Type 216 design.

krishna_krishna
BRFite
Posts: 873
Joined: 23 Oct 2006 04:14

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby krishna_krishna » 22 Feb 2020 23:36

Rakesh wrote:The best option, IMVHO, is the German Type 216 design.

+100

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4067
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby kit » 22 Feb 2020 23:43

krishna_krishna wrote:
Rakesh wrote:The best option, IMVHO, is the German Type 216 design.

+100

if it came with non magnetic hulls like the israeli dolphins

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9781
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 23 Feb 2020 00:35

That is exactly what we need to insist for if the Germans win the contract. Also the water ram expulsion torpedo system from the Type 212 please. Way less noise than air ram expulsion.

John
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2508
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby John » 23 Feb 2020 00:51

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/status/1231115692763566080?s=20 ---> Model worth considering. Brazil’s S-BR/SN-BR prog. Can be done by us, but indigenously. P-76 + IN SSN. Single program. Bring down costs.

Image

I am highly skeptical they can pull it off, I think France managed to fleece another military 10 billion for 4 Scorpene and Brazil is spending 7 billion for their first SSN. So they are hardly saving any money doing this approach and smaller SSN greatly cripples its operational ability as French found out and doesn’t save much operational cost.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9781
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 23 Feb 2020 01:00

Just take up the offer from Naval Group for additional Scorpenes and order two more, award the P75I contest to HDW with MDL as the SP and give the six SSN contract to Russia with L&T as the SP.

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2620
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Cybaru » 25 Feb 2020 01:00

I don't think we need more than 9-10 diesels. Rest should be all nuke boats another 10-12 of them (8 SSN + 4 SSBN)

Rishirishi
BRFite
Posts: 1343
Joined: 12 Mar 2005 02:30

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Rishirishi » 25 Feb 2020 04:10

John wrote:
Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/status/1231115692763566080?s=20 ---> Model worth considering. Brazil’s S-BR/SN-BR prog. Can be done by us, but indigenously. P-76 + IN SSN. Single program. Bring down costs.

Image

I am highly skeptical they can pull it off, I think France managed to fleece another military 10 billion for 4 Scorpene and Brazil is spending 7 billion for their first SSN. So they are hardly saving any money doing this approach and smaller SSN greatly cripples its operational ability as French found out and doesn’t save much operational cost.



I may be wrong, but i remember reading that the Arhiant will cost 560 million dollars. Arent they a much better option ?

Haridas
BRFite
Posts: 632
Joined: 26 Dec 2017 07:53

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Haridas » 25 Feb 2020 04:35

Rishirishi wrote:
John wrote:I am highly skeptical they can pull it off, I think France managed to fleece another military 10 billion for 4 Scorpene and Brazil is spending 7 billion for their first SSN. So they are hardly saving any money doing this approach and smaller SSN greatly cripples its operational ability as French found out and doesn’t save much operational cost.



I may be wrong, but i remember reading that the Arhiant will cost 560 million dollars. Arent they a much better option ?


The Akula was essentially a sale, whereby the 10 year lease cost = purchase price just to overcome NPAyothullas.

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2620
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Cybaru » 25 Feb 2020 04:37

Haridas wrote:
Rishirishi wrote:

I may be wrong, but i remember reading that the Arhiant will cost 560 million dollars. Arent they a much better option ?


The Akula was essentially a sale, whereby the 10 year lease cost = purchase price just to overcome NPAyothullas.


So there is a strong possibility that IN already operates a few Akulas. The tails don't have numbers anymore. The cost seems to go up every year.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8100
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby nachiket » 25 Feb 2020 04:55

Philip wrote:Until it is tested in a sub or submersible device,at depths and conditions that regular subs operate,plus undergoing the standard explosive tests simulating depth charges , it will remain yet another expensive DRDO technology demonstrator.To expect the IN to fit such an untested device into one of its precious few subs is asinine.As I've repeated before,a G-2- G deal with Germany for a new AIP U- boat design to replace our old U-209/1500s should be entered into.The Tried and tested German AIP fuel cell AIP system is in service with almost 2 doz. subs.This AIP system,superior to the French MESMA could be fitted to then in case our desi system fails to appear.A second line of Ru subs to replace the Kilos should also begin. The DRDO system could go aboard an Indo- Ru boat which would carry wraponry and eqpt. not possible on a western boat for obvious reasons. Oncec our DRDO AIP system is perfected,tried and tested and if found superior and cheaper hhan a firang one,we could retrofit it to all of our subs later on.

How is the DRDO AIP system supposed to become "tried and tested" if it is never installed on an actual IN submarine on account of it being untried and untested? What kind of circular logic is this?

How do you think the French and Germans "tried and tested" their AIP systems? They were also untried and untested before they were first installed on an actual submarine according to your logic.

I'm also amused by how this system is not "tried and tested" but a scale model of an Amur with VLS is enough for you to continuously peddle it here as if it actually existed. The DRDO AIP system is not a scale model but an actual working system tested on land.

Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2485
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Vivek K » 25 Feb 2020 05:25

This constant hankering for imports is ridiculous and must be stopped. This is a part of the import mafia drumming up support for the GOI's actions that help some motivated individuals with pilfering the nation's wealth and in exchange get us dummy systems that have a great brochure but at best work as efficiently as the Indian systems. Indian AIP will go through its cycle of land trials, harbor trials and then sea trials.

Has the Russian AIP been tested in war or for that matter the German/French systems?

The constant drumbeat favoring imports is not as innocent as it seems.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8100
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby nachiket » 25 Feb 2020 07:24

Vivek K wrote:Has the Russian AIP been tested in war or for that matter the German/French systems?

There is no operational Russian AIP. If there is a system under testing, I'd like to know.

Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2485
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Vivek K » 25 Feb 2020 09:00

I stand corrected. Which AIP systems have been proven in war?

Kersi
BRFite
Posts: 158
Joined: 31 May 2017 12:25

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Kersi » 25 Feb 2020 15:47

Vivek K wrote:I stand corrected. Which AIP systems have been proven in war?


Which submarines have been proven in war ?

Prithwiraj
BRFite
Posts: 251
Joined: 21 Dec 2016 18:48

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Prithwiraj » 25 Feb 2020 16:05

Kersi wrote:
Vivek K wrote:I stand corrected. Which AIP systems have been proven in war?


Which submarines have been proven in war ?


North Korean midget Sub blowing up South Korean Frigate

In addition Subs deterrent patrol itself is quasi war


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ParGha, ravikr, ssaravanan and 47 guests