Indian Military Helicopters

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54524
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 27 Feb 2020 01:14

naird wrote:
Cybaru wrote:
Still don't understand the reason for purchasing 6! Can you shed some light on it?


There is no rhyme or reason. It is a result of a bitter turf way between IA and IAF for a decade. Ultimately Antony who was the defence minister at that time worked out a compromise which is what you are currently looking at.
Hopefully CDS will address these issues in future.


What Nair garu if people like you say this, how will it resonate?

The IA requirement is one heavy attack helicopter squadron integral per Armoured division i.e. strike corps unitary.
Other choppers per Indep armoured brigade later.
Another is a detachment in Srinagar for contingencies.

IAF requirement is heavy attack helicopters for attacking radar sites etc in opening the war front and close air support as needed.

deejay
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3982
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby deejay » 27 Feb 2020 13:20

naird wrote:
Cybaru wrote:
Still don't understand the reason for purchasing 6! Can you shed some light on it?


There is no rhyme or reason. It is a result of a bitter turf way between IA and IAF for a decade. Ultimately Antony who was the defence minister at that time worked out a compromise which is what you are currently looking at.
Hopefully CDS will address these issues in future.


And Sir, how do you know of the turf war? Bitter one at that.

I know that Attack Choppers are integrated in the IA formations. All personnel wear the same formation signs. Attack Helicopters like the Apache (or the Mi 25/35) are a specific reason which is (AFAIK) not well explained in the public domain. Only thing I know for sure is that they are meant for the western sector.

IAF will use the LCH for all combat requirements it will have off helicopters. IAF is to the best of my knowledge not using the Dhruv MkIV so far.

IA has combat helicopter requirements which are being fulfilled presently by Dhruv MkIV and LCH will add to the arsenal.

The Apache's are therefore a very specific requirement. We just don't have the money for large scale inductions. IAF budget is presently dedicated to Rafale and LCA Mk 1 and Mk1A. There are drone purchases and C225 purchase on the anvil too among host of other requirements for EW and force multippliers. A lot of IAF budget is going in for upgrade programmes and missile purchases.

Hence, it makes sense to get the Apache's with IA budget while the prices are what they are for now. I don't think further additions are ruled out but IMHO, this is it. No more of Apaches.

deejay
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3982
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby deejay » 27 Feb 2020 13:23

mody wrote:Given the price of imported systems and the numbers that we require of various types of helicopters, I hope better sense prevails in the MoD and IAF, IA and IN, with regards to our current and future requirement of platforms.
Only the capability that we don't have, should be imported.
Currently only the heavy lift and the medium anti-sub helicopters for the navy are not within our capabilities. We don't have a platform, neither do we have the cutting edge sensors that the likes of MH-60R have.

For all other requirements, like LUH, NLUH, armed/combat helicopters etc, we should go the indigenous route only. The medium lift helicopters to replace the Mi-17s, is in development and there is no urgent requirement. We have enough number of Mi-17s in service.
For everything else, the Dhruv, Naval-Dhruv, Rudra, LCH and LUH should be the only options for all the three services. With the numbers required, the costs will come down further, plus the level of indigenisation can also be increased. Plus part of the money spent by the government, will come back to it, in the form of taxes and dividend paid by HAL and also all the private companies involved in the project. Not to mention the employment generation and taxes on the salaries being paid by the people thus employed.


You will be surprised at the number of helicopters we actually need. There is a need for more heavy lift helicopters and presently we are short by a margin. Budget being the primary reason.

deejay
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3982
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby deejay » 27 Feb 2020 13:24

ramana wrote:
naird wrote:
There is no rhyme or reason. It is a result of a bitter turf way between IA and IAF for a decade. Ultimately Antony who was the defence minister at that time worked out a compromise which is what you are currently looking at.
Hopefully CDS will address these issues in future.


What Nair garu if people like you say this, how will it resonate?

The IA requirement is one heavy attack helicopter squadron integral per Armoured division i.e. strike corps unitary.
Other choppers per Indep armoured brigade later.
Another is a detachment in Srinagar for contingencies.

IAF requirement is heavy attack helicopters for attacking radar sites etc in opening the war front and close air support as needed.


Sir creation of IBGs have put to wind a lot of old concepts. We will have to wait for a lot of clarity as to what, where, when an why.

ashishvikas
BRFite
Posts: 544
Joined: 17 Oct 2016 14:18

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ashishvikas » 27 Feb 2020 14:27

Rajnath Singh: I shall be visiting the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited facility in Bengaluru today to inaugurate the Light Combat Helicopter Production Hangar and interact with the HAL workers.

https://twitter.com/rajnathsingh/status ... 91938?s=20

mody
BRFite
Posts: 705
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Mumbai, India

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby mody » 27 Feb 2020 16:00

deejay wrote:
mody wrote:Given the price of imported systems and the numbers that we require of various types of helicopters, I hope better sense prevails in the MoD and IAF, IA and IN, with regards to our current and future requirement of platforms.
Only the capability that we don't have, should be imported.
Currently only the heavy lift and the medium anti-sub helicopters for the navy are not within our capabilities. We don't have a platform, neither do we have the cutting edge sensors that the likes of MH-60R have.

For all other requirements, like LUH, NLUH, armed/combat helicopters etc, we should go the indigenous route only. The medium lift helicopters to replace the Mi-17s, is in development and there is no urgent requirement. We have enough number of Mi-17s in service.
For everything else, the Dhruv, Naval-Dhruv, Rudra, LCH and LUH should be the only options for all the three services. With the numbers required, the costs will come down further, plus the level of indigenisation can also be increased. Plus part of the money spent by the government, will come back to it, in the form of taxes and dividend paid by HAL and also all the private companies involved in the project. Not to mention the employment generation and taxes on the salaries being paid by the people thus employed.


You will be surprised at the number of helicopters we actually need. There is a need for more heavy lift helicopters and presently we are short by a margin. Budget being the primary reason.


Deejay sir, that's exactly what I said. Heavy Lift helicopters and medium anti-sub naval helicopters are the only ones that we should look to import. We do not have anything in development that we will have in the next 5 years. Hope we exercise an option for 7-8 additional Chinook helicopters and an additional 24 MH60R. The second lot of MH-60R may cost us an additional $2 Billion. 48 nos. of MH-60R will cover us for 5 years and by then, we will have our own solution for Medium capacity naval helicopters.
Apart from these, I don't think we can afford to import any other system. LUH, NLUH, Combat helicopters etc. all should be from our indigenously developed products only. No Ka-226T, or any other helicopters for the Naval LUH requirement and no more Apache etc.

deejay
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3982
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby deejay » 27 Feb 2020 16:05

mody wrote:...
Deejay sir, that's exactly what I said. Heavy Lift helicopters and medium anti-sub naval helicopters are the only ones that we should look to import. We do not have anything in development that we will have in the next 5 years. Hope we exercise an option for 7-8 additional Chinook helicopters and an additional 24 MH60R. The second lot of MH-60R may cost us an additional $2 Billion. 48 nos. of MH-60R will cover us for 5 years and by then, we will have our own solution for Medium capacity naval helicopters.
Apart from these, I don't think we can afford to import any other system. LUH, NLUH, Combat helicopters etc. all should be from our indigenously developed products only. No Ka-226T, or any other helicopters for the Naval LUH requirement and no more Apache etc.


Sir, I should have expanded on my post. We also need many more medium and light helicopters. But you are right they will be mostly addressed through domestic production. I hope IMRH comes in 5-6 years or we will see a lot of V5s getting due for major overhauls in that period. 1Vs are already going into Russia for O/Hs for sometime now.

I wish someone could explain why Ka 226T.

sivab
BRFite
Posts: 969
Joined: 22 Feb 2006 07:56

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sivab » 28 Feb 2020 00:51

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/12 ... 5089294341 ---> Defence Minister Rajnath Singh at the newly-inaugurated LCH final assembly hangar of HAL in Bengaluru today.

Image

Image

Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2786
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vips » 28 Feb 2020 03:30

^^ The production hangar inaugurated by Defence Minister Rajnath Singh has capacity to manufacture/assemble 30 LCH per year.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9261
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 28 Feb 2020 06:45

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/12 ... 30305?s=20 ---> Defence Minister Rajnath Singh and HAL officials inside the full scale mock-up of indigenous Indian Multi Role Helicopter (IMRH). Will be some distance away before this dream of HAL take wing. A Preliminary Project Report for development is with MoD for sanction of funds by CCS.

Image

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1685
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Khalsa » 28 Feb 2020 14:43

sivab wrote:https://twitter.com/writetake/status/1232965865089294341 ---> Defence Minister Rajnath Singh at the newly-inaugurated LCH final assembly hangar of HAL in Bengaluru today.

Image

Image



Finally the MFG line is up and completed.
Here we go then.

I had a dream.
3 new LCH squadrons raised by the Indian Army.
Each centrered around 2 APACHE Longbows networking them from the inside out.

Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2330
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Manish_P » 28 Feb 2020 16:32

Seen quiet a few defense ministers inaugurating stuff but for some reason i find Rajnath Singhs photos quite pleasing

Don't know if it because of desi platforms but he always has this proud, enigmatic look on his face

Look at the above photo, he has one hand on the LCH with a half smile, almost like a proud papa showing his newest baby -'kid is going to make me proud one day' - :lol:

rajkumar
BRFite
Posts: 188
Joined: 22 Sep 2000 11:31
Location: London U.K
Contact:

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby rajkumar » 28 Feb 2020 16:46

Manish_P wrote:Seen quiet a few defense ministers inaugurating stuff but for some reason i find Rajnath Singhs photos quite pleasing

Don't know if it because of desi platforms but he always has this proud, enigmatic look on his face

Look at the above photo, he has one hand on the LCH with a half smile, almost like a proud papa showing his newest baby -'kid is going to make me proud one day' - :lol:


While I agree with you about pleasing to the eye..until Rajnath Singh signs the order for the LCH..is just eye candy

Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2330
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Manish_P » 28 Feb 2020 17:06

True sir, true. Just couldn't help looking at that photo. That's all.

As a jingo been waiting since a long time to see youtube videos of Pakis, through the optics of the LCH, getting smoked. Hopefully won't be much longer now.

shaun
BRFite
Posts: 1156
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shaun » 29 Feb 2020 10:01


abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2915
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby abhik » 29 Feb 2020 22:10

sivab wrote:https://twitter.com/writetake/status/1232965865089294341 ---> Defence Minister Rajnath Singh at the newly-inaugurated LCH final assembly hangar of HAL in Bengaluru today.
...

What a bizarre event, honorable minister goes to inaugurate a assembly facility without placing any actual orders! Check out the mock up of IMRH with no commitment on providing funds for its development. All the while signing a massively expensive deal to import just 6 attack helicopters.

sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10048
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sum » 29 Feb 2020 22:39

abhik wrote:
sivab wrote:https://twitter.com/writetake/status/1232965865089294341 ---> Defence Minister Rajnath Singh at the newly-inaugurated LCH final assembly hangar of HAL in Bengaluru today.
...

What a bizarre event, honorable minister goes to inaugurate a assembly facility without placing any actual orders! Check out the mock up of IMRH with no commitment on providing funds for its development. All the while signing a massively expensive deal to import just 6 attack helicopters.

Agree
I remember Arun Jaitley inaugurating LCH IOC production line eons back and there was talk of soon to arrive orders once all IOC models are ready and evaluated

Now the final assembly hangar is inaugurated and suspense continues ( 6 apaches must have cleaned up IA helo funds of couple of yrs atleast).
What are these assembled units going to do and how many are planned?

Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2330
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vivek K » 29 Feb 2020 23:32

This import of pitiful numbers at exorbitant prices is the reason India is neither taken as a serious global military power or as an economic power! Use these 6 apaches against a Chinese intrusion and see how long they last! There is so much deep rooted corruption that there is almost no hope of a powerful India.

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14167
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby pankajs » 01 Mar 2020 13:44

^^
Army Apaches will likely be deployed against Bakistan in tank busting role or as controllers of tank busting LCH but not against China.

darshhan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2564
Joined: 12 Dec 2008 11:52

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby darshhan » 01 Mar 2020 15:57

Vivek K wrote:This import of pitiful numbers at exorbitant prices is the reason India is neither taken as a serious global military power or as an economic power! Use these 6 apaches against a Chinese intrusion and see how long they last! There is so much deep rooted corruption that there is almost no hope of a powerful India.


6 No. Apaches. What a joke? Any one goes down and basically you are facing with a 17% fleet depletion levels. What is the thinking process of IA's procurement decision makers? Exactly What do they want to achieve with 6 no. apaches?

darshhan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2564
Joined: 12 Dec 2008 11:52

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby darshhan » 01 Mar 2020 15:58

pankajs wrote:^^
Army Apaches will likely be deployed against Bakistan in tank busting role or as controllers of tank busting LCH but not against China.


This is more like a solution searching for the problem.

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4708
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby chola » 01 Mar 2020 18:01

sum wrote:
abhik wrote:What a bizarre event, honorable minister goes to inaugurate a assembly facility without placing any actual orders! Check out the mock up of IMRH with no commitment on providing funds for its development. All the while signing a massively expensive deal to import just 6 attack helicopters.

Agree
I remember Arun Jaitley inaugurating LCH IOC production line eons back and there was talk of soon to arrive orders once all IOC models are ready and evaluated

Now the final assembly hangar is inaugurated and suspense continues ( 6 apaches must have cleaned up IA helo funds of couple of yrs atleast).
What are these assembled units going to do and how many are planned?


In India onlee that an indigenous assembly line is inaugurated and we still have suspense.

Anywhere else, the indigenous product is all but guaranteed.

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4708
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby chola » 01 Mar 2020 18:11

Bad enough that we are spending huge amounts overseas when the budget is tight and the amount paid for these six Apache could feed the LCH assembly line with dozens of orders.

But we seem intent on paying an extra premium!

Attack helos should go to the Army onlee like most other armed forces around the world.

https://theprint.in/opinion/brahmastra/army-and-iaf-fought-over-apache-choppers-costing-us-rs-2500-crore-more-blame-their-silos/372553/


Army and IAF fought over Apache choppers, costing us Rs 2,500 crore more. Blame their silos

Purchase of 28 Apache helicopters is the prime example of how India could have worked out a better deal had the IAF and Army not acted in silos.

SNEHESH ALEX PHILIP
28 February, 2020 12:35 pm IST

Do this math: 22 AH-64E Apache helicopters in 2015 cost $2.1 billion, or Rs 14,910 crore, and six of these in 2020 cost Rs 6,600 crore.

In just five years, the cost of one helicopter jumped by 62 per cent.

Yes, about Rs 1,100 crore each is what the Army will pay for six iconic pure attack helicopters that come armed with the state-of-the-art weapon system and are a big boost to the military’s firepower.

If one does a basic calculation, then each IAF helicopter in 2015 cost approximately Rs 678 crore while the Army ones in 2020 cost about Rs 1,100 crore. This means that the six new helicopters cost about Rs 2,500 crore more.

Before you start outraging over the overpriced helicopters, which is due to the military’s mistake, here’s a caveat. Remember that the price also includes the cost for the simulators, creation of infrastructure and performance-based logistics, which will also take care of spares, besides the training of the initial group of pilots.

But the difference in the cost is an important window into the silos that Indian armed forces operate in.

The deal for the Army came after a fight with the Indian Air Force (IAF) during the UPA government. While the Army was of the view that the attack choppers should go to them, the IAF did not want to lose its position since it has traditionally played the integrated combat aviation cover to the Army’s Strike Corps.

Former IAF chief N.A.K Browne had even said that he could not allow “little air forces doing things of their own”.

To buy peace between the warring services, it was decided by then-UPA government that while the IAF will get the first 22 helicopters, the future purchase will go to the Army.

...

Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2786
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vips » 01 Mar 2020 18:42

HAL finalises plan to produce military helicopter on par with Boeing's Apache Guardian.

In an ambitious project with strategic significance, aerospace major Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has started ground work to produce a 10 to 12 tonne attack helicopter by 2027 which will be comparable with some of the best medium-lift military choppers globally like the Apache of the Boeing.

Chairman and Managing Director of HAL R Madhavan said the aim of the mega project is to stop import of more than Rs 4 lakh crore worth of
military helicopters for the three services in the coming years.

In an interview to PTI, Madhavan said the HAL has completed the preliminary design of the helicopter and that initial plan is to produce at least 500 units with the first prototype set to be ready by 2023 if the government gives the go ahead to the project this year.

"One major project we are focusing on is to produce a helicopter in 10 to 12 tonnes category to replace the Mi-17 fleet. It will be an indigenous platform with the potential to manufacture around 500 helicopters. It will stop import of more than Rs 4 lakh crore worth of platforms from foreign countries," he said.

Madhavan said an amount of Rs 9,600 crore will be required for design as well as to produce the prototype of the helicopter. "If we get the approval in 2020, we will be able to manufacture the first chopper by 2027. We are looking at producing at least 500 helicopters of the variant. It will be a major project we are working on," he said.

A military expert described the project as the biggest by the HAL after development of the Tejas military aircraft."We have done the preliminary design. We have also been in discussion with the Air Force and the Navy. The 10-12 tonnes category will have two basic structures on similar platforms. The naval version will have different dimension compared to the one for the Army and the Air Force," Madhavan said on the proposed mega project.

"Like the LCH (Light Combat Helicopter) we developed from the Dhruv platform, a similar variant of 10-12 tonnes category can be produced to make it an Apache equivalent," said Madhavan.

The helicopter will be powered by twin engines and will feature blade folding option for ship deck operations. The planned roles for the helicopter will be to support air assault, air transport, combat logistics and combat search and rescue. The chopper will also have a very superior weapons package.

Madhavan said the helicopter will have a huge potential for export.

The Mi-17 helicopters make up the backbone of the IAF's helicopter fleet and they are planned to be phased out by 2032. The HAL's product range includes a number of helicopter like the LCH (Light Combat Helicopter) and multi-role ALH (Advanced Light Helicopter) and Chetak choppers.

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4708
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby chola » 01 Mar 2020 22:34

^^^ Would be unequivocably great news if we didn't have the LCH already? If we needed a heavy attack helo onlee then why not design one from the beginning and not waste resources on the LCH when we are going to pay through the nose anyways with Apache?

Is there a place for LCH in conjunction first with Apache and then this new 10-ton attack helo? LCH is a 5-7 ton aircraft that can work as a scout. But there is no real discussion on its role other than as an attack helo. I see dwindling resources and funds for the lights such as LCH, LUH and even ALH for the Navy.

I should be happy with the ambition of the new project but feel uncertain because of all these current programs which are going well developmentally but have no orders because of funding.

mahadevbhu
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 81
Joined: 28 Oct 2019 19:47

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby mahadevbhu » 01 Mar 2020 22:47

I think that we are Anu Malik-ing where we can - it does make sense to have *some* Apache's and pay full billing for them.

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7729
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby rohitvats » 02 Mar 2020 00:31

^^^From what I remember, IA's Apache requirement is 39 units. More will come. Irrespective of chest-beating by usual suspects, that is a reality. As is the induction of LCH. It will happen. The whole future of combat aviation in the army is hinged around LCH. It is the only way IA will have 1 squadron of attack helicopter per Corps HQ. With Apaches going to the Strike Corps.

IA's plan was/is to have Combat Aviation Brigade per Corps HQ. With a squadron each of Attack + Recce & Observation + Utility helicopter.

Attack is Apache/LCH, depending on the Corps. But bulk will be LCH. R&O will be LUH/Ka-226. And Dhruv is utility. In this mix will be 60 Rudra gunships.

Further, IA wants to Company level (120+ men and their combat load) helicopter air-lift capability at Corps HQ level and 1 x Inf Bn level helicopter airlift facility at AHQ level. For that, it needs choppers in Mi-17 class. Something which has been denied to it by IAF.

Apart from all the above, you'll have independent R&O flights, gunship squadrons dedicated to key independent brigades/IBG etc.

This is how the helicopter scenario of IA going to pan out over next decade. You can work out the numbers yourself.

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4546
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JayS » 02 Mar 2020 01:36

Vips wrote:HAL finalises plan to produce military helicopter on par with Boeing's Apache Guardian.

In an ambitious project with strategic significance, aerospace major Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has started ground work to produce a 10 to 12 tonne attack helicopter by 2027 which will be comparable with some of the best medium-lift military choppers globally like the Apache of the Boeing.

Chairman and Managing Director of HAL R Madhavan said the aim of the mega project is to stop import of more than Rs 4 lakh crore worth of
military helicopters for the three services in the coming years.

In an interview to PTI, Madhavan said the HAL has completed the preliminary design of the helicopter and that initial plan is to produce at least 500 units with the first prototype set to be ready by 2023 if the government gives the go ahead to the project this year.

"One major project we are focusing on is to produce a helicopter in 10 to 12 tonnes category to replace the Mi-17 fleet. It will be an indigenous platform with the potential to manufacture around 500 helicopters. It will stop import of more than Rs 4 lakh crore worth of platforms from foreign countries," he said.

Madhavan said an amount of Rs 9,600 crore will be required for design as well as to produce the prototype of the helicopter. "If we get the approval in 2020, we will be able to manufacture the first chopper by 2027. We are looking at producing at least 500 helicopters of the variant. It will be a major project we are working on," he said.

A military expert described the project as the biggest by the HAL after development of the Tejas military aircraft."We have done the preliminary design. We have also been in discussion with the Air Force and the Navy. The 10-12 tonnes category will have two basic structures on similar platforms. The naval version will have different dimension compared to the one for the Army and the Air Force," Madhavan said on the proposed mega project.

"Like the LCH (Light Combat Helicopter) we developed from the Dhruv platform, a similar variant of 10-12 tonnes category can be produced to make it an Apache equivalent," said Madhavan.

The helicopter will be powered by twin engines and will feature blade folding option for ship deck operations. The planned roles for the helicopter will be to support air assault, air transport, combat logistics and combat search and rescue. The chopper will also have a very superior weapons package.

Madhavan said the helicopter will have a huge potential for export.

The Mi-17 helicopters make up the backbone of the IAF's helicopter fleet and they are planned to be phased out by 2032. The HAL's product range includes a number of helicopter like the LCH (Light Combat Helicopter) and multi-role ALH (Advanced Light Helicopter) and Chetak choppers.



Is the reporter confused between IMRH and a medium weight attack helicopter..?? The report reads funny.

Bart S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2395
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 00:03

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Bart S » 02 Mar 2020 02:43

^Wouldn't the same core platform be reusable for similar applications in it's weight class? e.g ALH > LCH

mody
BRFite
Posts: 705
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Mumbai, India

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby mody » 02 Mar 2020 16:44

The 500 nos. are for the IMRH, both IA/IAF and Navy variants. The attack heli from the same can be derived, however, the DDM report makes it sound like the project is to develop an 10-12 ton attack helicopter only!!

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5280
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kartik » 03 Mar 2020 00:02

Coming from a decorated helicopter pilot and a former IAF ACM, the praise for the LCH really establishes it's credentials as a great attack helicopter

Why India's Light Combat Helicopter could be a game changer

Air Chief Marshal Fali H Major (retd)

Attack helicopters have been in the news lately. Earlier this week, a government-to-government deal for eight Apache helicopter gunships for the Indian Army was signed during the visit of President Donald Trump. In September 2019, the Indian Air Force (IAF) began taking deliveries of the first batch of their 22 Apaches contracted for under a $1.1 billion deal in 2015.

With the Indian armed forces set to operate 30 of these highly capable machines, it’s easy to lose sight of the indigenous Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) being developed by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). Defence Minister Rajnath Singh on Thursday inaugurated the new LCH production hangar at HAL’s Helicopter Division. HAL officials said the LCH “is completely ready for induction and the complex fully geared up for its production”.

I have been following the LCH’s development and flight testing over the past four years, and in my opinion, it has progressed very well. I was fortunate to fly this mean machine during Aero India 2017. It was a delightful experience. The test pilot demonstrated a fairly wide array of combat/weapon delivery and high-G manoeuvres and later, I flew the entire flight profile myself.

I can say with great confidence and pride that the LCH has evolved into a very sturdy, potent and highly manoeuverable platform. I was particularly impressed by the platform stability, ease of handling it in high-G manoeuvres and control responses in the entire flight envelope that we flew. Given the fact that these features form the basic requirements for a combat helicopter for accurate weapon delivery, the LCH meets most attack helicopter requirements and parameters with distinction. The indigenous helicopter could be a valuable stepping stone for our pilots moving on to the Apache.


The armed forces are to set up theatre commands, as recently announced by the Chief of Defence Staff General Bipin Rawat.

Thirty Apaches will be grossly inadequate to perform the close air support missions in these three or four theatres. The planned acquisition of nearly 200 LCHs for the army and air force will bring battlefield support helicopters in the numbers for these new commands.

While the Apaches would do well in the plains, they would have limitations operating in the upper reaches of the Himalayas. During the Kargil War of 1999, there was a need felt for armed attack helicopters capable of operating at high altitude. That’s where the LCH fits in. It has successfully been tested in altitudes over 13,000 feet and was the first attack helicopter to land at the forward landing base in Siachen.

Today, as the LCH heads towards achieving its full operational capability (FOC) standards, especially after successful test firing of almost its entire weapons suite, the only aspects which will have to be dealt with very carefully and intelligently are the aspects of flawless weapons integration and maintainability. HAL needs to focus on robust product support and maintenance of these machines to ensure availability.

If done well, the LCH will be a success story. I say this with some confidence since I have flown many types of helicopters over 40 years, and the LCH to me is evolving as a fine combat helicopter.
The LCH can be the game changer in our indigenisation and Make in India pursuit, if flawlessly monitored and progressed. The Ministry of Defence and HAL must not spare any effort to pursue the LCH FOC targets with vigour, so that this ‘lean and mean machine’ evolves into a great combat asset for the Indian Armed Forces and indeed, the nation.

Roop
BRFite
Posts: 349
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Roop » 03 Mar 2020 05:57

agupta wrote:Should put a stop to the unnecessary ... rona-dhona here on BRF, MSM and fake news articles


We know that the "put a stop" thing is never going to happen, so no point in even hoping for it. :(

suryag
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3677
Joined: 11 Jan 2009 00:14

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby suryag » 03 Mar 2020 06:09

I greatly appreciate the positive tone in ACM Major sir. This is how a discourse should be and not around punch dialogues like 2 legged elephant 8 legged human. One of the things that i found out from my interactions with the top brass was the less than adequate support from PSUs who are generally not interested in after sales support as contracts between inter governmental agencies lack in this area(this kind of arrangement is new to us given we have been doing some serious indigenization only over the last 20 years barring Prithvi, license manufacturing). Bideshi companies are good at this(of course they charge you a bomb but the forces atleast get better support) The officer I talked to mentioned HAL is the best among the crop of PSUs when it comes to support but from press reports I believe they are over compensating by adding weighty PBLs to their contracts. Given AFs and DPSUs eat from the same MoD/MoF thali a potential idea would be to foster BRD/EMEs to act as licensed FAEs for DPSUs. A sub department in BRD/EME can stock up spares, manage maintenance schedules and act as go-between the forces and DPSUs.

Nikhil T
BRFite
Posts: 1286
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 06:48
Location: RAW HQ, Lodhi Road

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Nikhil T » 04 Mar 2020 06:36

agupta wrote:Should put a stop to the unnecessary ... rona-dhona here on BRF, MSM and fake news articles


Has there been a firm order for LCH? AFAIK even the 15 LSP are being built out of HAL's internal funds, in absence of the order. Forget the 114 + 65 that were "committed" to years ago.

IA and IAF are (were?) busy fighting over ownership for 22 Apaches, while LCH awaits orders after having demonstrated significant progress and weapons firing (per ACM Major).

Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2330
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vivek K » 04 Mar 2020 06:53

Rona dhona today is far better than getting your behind whupped in war! We have just seen a colossal waste of limited resources for 6 helos. This paltry number cannot change the course of a war or a battle. But the larger numbers of LCH could make an impact. But hey how does it matter! Have chai biscottis or whatever!!

JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2738
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JTull » 04 Mar 2020 15:51

HAL is first to plant stories in the media if things aren't going it's way. They're mum on LCH and Tejas Mk1A. That tells you everything.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8172
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 05 Mar 2020 12:21

That tells you that they have to take term loans for all R&D projects. They get advantage of captive customer. But they also pay the price when its customers are delinquent in paying their dues.

There is literally no money in HAL's coffers. The sad part is that there is no end in sight. Not in this year. Govt's is in major tangi.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8172
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 05 Mar 2020 23:02

Doesn't something in you guys die when 1 billion is made ready for 6 Apaches. But no money is made available for 15 LCHs that HAL could be producing from 2 years back ? 1 Billion! I don't know what HAL is asking for each LCH. But I can't imagine it being more thean $50 million. That would buy more than 20 LCHs for 1 billion. Bhai, aisa kya ukhaad leti hai 6 Apache?!! Please don't say Apaches can communicate with the rest of the fleet. THEY CAN'T. PERIOD. If they have to, all the other assets have to brought up to communicate using the links used by Apache.

I have no sympathy but contempt for Rajnath Singhji. After PArrikarji, I have progressive just lost confidence in this govt. to support desi research and development. They say the right things, but when it comes to doing, they have been found wanting. Where is the budget to do anything? Smile, intent etc. don't matter to me. Do the things that matter!

And if some of you feel that something is wrong with LCH, just state the technical difficulty that LCH is facing. I would be happy to answer. Raghuk is here. Hari Nair sir is here. Deejay is here. Don't just say "something must be wrong" because you feel like saying it!

A Deshmukh
BRFite
Posts: 299
Joined: 05 Dec 2008 14:24

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby A Deshmukh » 05 Mar 2020 23:08

Didn't RM just open a new production line for LCH with capacity of 30 units/pa.
I am sure there will be orders in 3-digits.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8172
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 05 Mar 2020 23:15

Where are the orders?!!!! Couldn't he have placed an order for LCH before the orders for Apaches?


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Anoop, Balaji, Vinod Ji and 42 guests