Indian Military Helicopters

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vips » 05 Mar 2020 23:20


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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby kit » 05 Mar 2020 23:49

Indranil wrote:Doesn't something in you guys die when 1 billion is made ready for 6 Apaches. But no money is made available for 15 LCHs that HAL could be producing from 2 years back ? 1 Billion! I don't know what HAL is asking for each LCH. But I can't imagine it being more thean $50 million. That would buy more than 20 LCHs for 1 billion. Bhai, aisa kya ukhaad leti hai 6 Apache?!! Please don't say Apaches can communicate with the rest of the fleet. THEY CAN'T. PERIOD. If they have to, all the other assets have to brought up to communicate using the links used by Apache.

I have no sympathy but contempt for Rajnath Singhji. After PArrikarji, I have progressive just lost confidence in this govt. to support desi research and development. They say the right things, but when it comes to doing, they have been found wanting. Where is the budget to do anything? Smile, intent etc. don't matter to me. Do the things that matter!

And if some of you feel that something is wrong with LCH, just state the technical difficulty that LCH is facing. I would be happy to answer. Raghuk is here. Hari Nair sir is here. Deejay is here. Don't just say "something must be wrong" because you feel like saying it!


The arms sales are not always about technology and material acquisition., after all 6 apaches are a drop in the ocean when compared to requirements. Even all the "indigenous equipment" have a significant amount of critical foreign technology. Not everything can be built nor is it cost effective. It all boils down to a mix of indian and foreign military equipment in various percentages. , and increasingly so as India tries to integrate into the global military supply chains.

There does seem to be more to it than seeming piece meal orders.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 06 Mar 2020 01:03

Actual actions reflect actual priorities. If pleasing geopolitics is higher priority, 6 Apaches become higher priority. If indigenous manufacturing is the priority then LCH orders would precede Apache orders, C295W orders would precede Rafale orders, ...

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Nikhil T » 06 Mar 2020 03:29

Agreed Indranil sir on all points. This line of reasoning that “there must be something wrong with the product” is often the first defence whenever an injustice against an indigenous product comes up. If that line of reasoning is proven wrong, then the second is “it must be for secret geo political benefits like UNSC veto or TSP condemnation etc etc”. The script remains the same.

For LCH, the cost was Rs 231 crore as of early 2018. That’s compared to Rs 1,106 crore per Apache we’re paying. That’s 4.7 LCH per Apache - make it 3.5 after accounting for usual excuses like bare bones vs. fully loaded weaponry and PBL contracts. HAL has promised to reduce the price even more once orders flow in, by substituting costly imported components such as FCS (indigenous FCS is flying in test beds already btw). IAF is already on record saying LCH is great and has tested weapons - pray what’re we waiting for?

Both Kadi Ninda and Nirmala Sitharaman have been big talkers. LCH found itself in the famous list of 1 lakh crore confirmed and in pipeline orders for HAL. No word on when they would ever be signed. Meanwhile let’s fight over where Apaches should live - IAF or IA.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby VinodTK » 06 Mar 2020 03:51

Indranil wrote:Doesn't something in you guys die when 1 billion is made ready for 6 Apaches. But no money is made available for 15 LCHs that HAL could be producing from 2 years back ? 1 Billion! I don't know what HAL is asking for each LCH. But I can't imagine it being more thean $50 million. That would buy more than 20 LCHs for 1 billion. Bhai, aisa kya ukhaad leti hai 6 Apache?!! Please don't say Apaches can communicate with the rest of the fleet. THEY CAN'T. PERIOD. If they have to, all the other assets have to brought up to communicate using the links used by Apache.

I have no sympathy but contempt for Rajnath Singhji. After PArrikarji, I have progressive just lost confidence in this govt. to support desi research and development. They say the right things, but when it comes to doing, they have been found wanting. Where is the budget to do anything? Smile, intent etc. don't matter to me. Do the things that matter!

And if some of you feel that something is wrong with LCH, just state the technical difficulty that LCH is facing. I would be happy to answer. Raghuk is here. Hari Nair sir is here. Deejay is here. Don't just say "something must be wrong" because you feel like saying it!

+++100%

If a soon to be $5T economy cannot afford the basic needs for the armed farces what can it afford
It must be a genetic thing, throughout history of India you can see Indians were and are always under prepared to defend and scare any invader

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rishi_Tri » 11 Mar 2020 05:54

Vips wrote:


Panelists were excited by IMRH. Key points from the discussion:

IMRH prototype to be rolled out by 2023
IMRH serial production could start by 2027
Budgetary support asked for - Rs 9,600 crores
Shall be real force multiplier in plains and lower altitudes.

Outside of IMRH, there was unqualified praise for ALH, saying that it is perhaps the best Military Helicopter India has had and its real capabilities come into play at higher altitudes, 19,000 ft +.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nachiket » 11 Mar 2020 05:57

Indranil, has the ATGM integration on LCH (Pars-LR? Helina?) been completed? I am getting a sinking feeling that someone is soon going to come up with the bright idea of asking for the Hellfire to be integrated with the LCH, delaying (or derailing) the whole program even more.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Suresh S » 11 Mar 2020 06:36

I have the same feeling when u see such a large amount being paid for a mere 6 helicopters and indigenous programs are drip fed. But I think this is ghoonsh for the orange man so that some of those factories in china can be relocated to India. If that is even partially successful that will more than make up for this.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby srai » 14 Mar 2020 08:35

nachiket wrote:Indranil, has the ATGM integration on LCH (Pars-LR? Helina?) been completed? I am getting a sinking feeling that someone is soon going to come up with the bright idea of asking for the Hellfire to be integrated with the LCH, delaying (or derailing) the whole program even more.

That would complete its arsenal.

As far as the ALH-Rudra goes, HELINA integration must be pretty close to completion. First launches were done in 2012. Quite a few developmental and user trials since then.
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Check out what it says on DRDO website.

DRDO: HELINA
HELINA (Helicopter based NAG) is a third generation fire and forget class anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) system mounted on the Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH). The system has all weather day and night capability and can defeat battle tanks with conventional armour as well as explosive reactive armour. The HELINA missile can engage targets both in direct hit mode as well as top attack mode. HELINA Weapon Systems is being inducted into the Indian Army (IA). A variant of HELINA Weapon System called DHRUVASTRA is being inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF).


HELINA user trials slated to complete this year 2020.

INTERVIEW | Youngsters can power India into a defence technology leader: Dr Satheesh Reddy
February 16, 2020
...

Missile Matters

In the last one year we saw multiple success on the missile front. Various trials of Astra, quick reaction surface to air missile (QRSAM ), Nag and Pinaka were successfully completed.

This year the user trials of HELINA missile and man portable anti tank guided missile (MPATGM) will be completed. Development trials of new generation anti radiation missile (NGARM ) will be taken up this year. We are also working on Astra Mk-2 long range air-to-air missile. There are several other missiles that are in the pipeline.

On the weapons front, we have developed the Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS) in collaboration with Tatas and Bharat Forge. This year the system will undergo user trials. We are also developing the Joint Venture Protective Carbine (JVPC) and smart anti-airfield weapon (SAAW) bomb.

I am confident that SAAW will complete its trials this year and enter into production. There are many other weapons also being developed simultaneously.

...

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby titash » 15 Mar 2020 01:46

srai wrote:
nachiket wrote:Check out what it says on DRDO website.

DRDO: HELINA

HELINA (Helicopter based NAG) is a third generation fire and forget class anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) system mounted on the Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH). The system has all weather day and night capability and can defeat battle tanks with conventional armour as well as explosive reactive armour. The HELINA missile can engage targets both in direct hit mode as well as top attack mode. HELINA Weapon Systems is being inducted into the Indian Army (IA). A variant of HELINA Weapon System called DHRUVASTRA is being inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF).



The NAG and HELINA are dedicated anti-tank missiles with IR guidance and armor piercing warheads. It's quite possible that the anti-armour mission has been transferred to the IA Aviation Corps' 50+ Rudras and 100+ LCHs; whereas the IAF's missions for it's 15+ Rudras and 60+ LCHs are SEAD, Combat SAR, escorts to SF transports etc. in which case the missiles need to have high explosive warheads with passive AR seekers, MMW seekers, or manual TV guidance etc. Hence Dhruvastra - a variant of HELINA

Just speculating, but makes sense based on the DRDO website...


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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby venkat_r » 23 Mar 2020 22:18

Indranil wrote:Doesn't something in you guys die when 1 billion is made ready for 6 Apaches. But no money is made available for 15 LCHs that HAL could be producing from 2 years back ? 1 Billion!!


Yes it does pain to see this attitude towards indigenous products - especially in this case as IMHO army could have been forced to accept just the LCHs only and no Apaches. Sometimes I wonder what would have been if we did not have that option of Apaches.

Having said that, recently I have been binge watching the RSTV episodes and came away overall feeling very good about Modi and the present setup doing the best they could for building local MIC and also making sure that India has the best security available, sometimes we might not understand the push and pulls of those in power, but still have high degree of confidence that the indigenous systems would eventually win out. But also agree that the shift should not be this tough and painful. It is very disheartening and demotivating to the hardworking people in the institutions who build competitive products with meager resources only to be treated as step children.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 30 Mar 2020 20:32

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/03 ... -helo.html
The Rudras are being purchased in healthy numbers by the IAF (16) and Army (78),

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby srai » 31 Mar 2020 05:41


Vivek K
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vivek K » 01 Apr 2020 03:34

Mogambo khush hua! What a beauty!!

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 01 Apr 2020 11:37

IR, I have been in this forum since beginning and have been a proponent for strong military.
No it does not hurt me when the Apaches which are needed at this time.
And hope six more are bought to give a punch to the strike corps.

And along with it LCH will be ordered now that it cleared all the trials.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby basant » 04 Apr 2020 11:56

Not sure where to post. Turn up the volume!


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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby srai » 04 Apr 2020 19:08

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 07 Apr 2020 05:32


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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby joygoswami » 08 Apr 2020 14:52

Former ACM of Bangladesh Air Force visiting HAL facility and their HAL LCH & HAL Rudra helicopters. Date not know. Source: FB

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 08 Apr 2020 20:33

Kindly provide link of images.


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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Gerard » 17 Apr 2020 18:42

IAF Apache copter makes precautionary landing
“The helicopter, after approximately 1hr of flying, had indications of a critical failure and carried out a safe landing west of Indora, Punjab. The captain of the aircraft took correct and prompt actions to recover the helicopter safely,” The IAF said in a statement. All crew onboard the helicopter were safe and there had been no damage to any property. “The aircraft will be recovered after necessary rectification,” the IAF said.


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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Aditya_V » 17 Apr 2020 19:12

If this was a LCH or ALH imagine the how Ballistic the press would have gone, this import lobby does not want us to have emphatic victory over Pakis and sucks our resources into foreign programmes. Right now we need to keep the US happy so I accept some amount will need to spent on US defense imports.

Some of Hero worshiping that US weapons can do no wrong sometimes get to me, in fact it goes to the extent that did the Su-30 really dodge US Amraams, did a Mig 21 actually shoot down a F-16?, oh well then Amraams must out range R-77 significantly then etc.

Even the best in the business fail sometimes and well done to the IAF pilot. But when it comes to domestic products, given CAPEX and future benefits a law must be passed that imported systems must be 40% cheaper than domestic (not screwdrivergiri) alternatives.

Numbers required for winning wars will never come from imported system. 1971 was an exception due to Soviet largesse- that was a Black Swan event since the Chinese had back stabbed in the 60's.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vivek K » 17 Apr 2020 20:04

Aditya_V wrote:If this was a LCH or ALH imagine the how Ballistic the press would have gone, this import lobby does not want us to have emphatic victory over Pakis and sucks our resources into foreign programmes. Right now we need to keep the US happy so I accept some amount will need to spent on US defense imports.

Some of Hero worshiping that US weapons can do no wrong sometimes get to me, in fact it goes to the extent that did the Su-30 really dodge US Amraams, did a Mig 21 actually shoot down a F-16?, oh well then Amraams must out range R-77 significantly then etc.

Even the best in the business fail sometimes and well done to the IAF pilot. But when it comes to domestic products, given CAPEX and future benefits a law must be passed that imported systems must be 40% cheaper than domestic (not screwdrivergiri) alternatives.

Numbers required for winning wars will never come from imported system. 1971 was an exception due to Soviet largesse- that was a Black Swan event since the Chinese had back stabbed in the 60's.

Exactly right, I couldn't have said it better. The procurement mafia of the Indian armed forces wants to keep the failed state alive so that we continue to import and people keep dying. If India bought only its own equipment - LCAs, Arjuns, Akash, Astra, Dhrvu, Rudra, LCH (possible now because of these efforts) then Pakistan would not exist.

On the F-16 vs Sukhoi front - is it that the Sukhois jammed every Paki asset so they couldn't get a firing solution. Realizing they had been incapacitated, the F-16s needed to escape and therefore lobbed AMRAAMs to keep the Sukhois busy (can AMRAAMs be guided by the Erieye) . So when Abhi came out from behind the hills and chased the 16s he was out of the Sukhois jamming reach. The other Mig turned back for this reason and Abhi did not realize it in the heat of the battle.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Manish_P » 17 Apr 2020 20:27

^ You forgot that other favorite - 'Pilot Error'. After all SDREs are not good enough to master uber western (and sometimes Russian) technologies

Looks like a very controlled, safe landing by the pilot BTW.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby chetak » 18 Apr 2020 14:59

IAF’s brand new & expensive Apache chopper makes emergency landing due to technical glitch

@sneheshphilip reports




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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sajaym » 20 Apr 2020 10:56


This is a disaster! Seems like some hardware failure issue. Could it be improper assembly by Khansamahs post delivery? Do the engines have in-built dust filters I wonder.

I have never really understood why these and the Chinooks are flown to & assembled in Hindon AFB. Why are these choppers not first flown to the B'lore HAL helicopter division, assembled, flight-tested and THEN handed over to the IA & IAF?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 20 Apr 2020 11:47

This rona dhona about the Apache landing on a field is much ado about nothing. It happens. The machine and pilot identified the problem. Safely recovered the aircraft. Field rectifications done and aircraft made airworthy again.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ArjunPandit » 20 Apr 2020 13:02

Indranil wrote:This rona dhona about the Apache landing on a field is much ado about nothing. It happens. The machine and pilot identified the problem. Safely recovered the aircraft. Field rectifications done and aircraft made airworthy again.

the device is being tested in the field..why should there be rona dhona sir..its better to find out operating limits now in fields rather than in war...

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Shubham » 20 Apr 2020 13:48

sajaym wrote:I have never really understood why these and the Chinooks are flown to & assembled in Hindon AFB. Why are these choppers not first flown to the B'lore HAL helicopter division, assembled, flight-tested and THEN handed over to the IA & IAF?

I guess we dont want people of different nationality getting mixed. :rotfl: Hindon must have lodging and boarding facilities for khans already available since others khan friends must be already chilling out there

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Shubham » 20 Apr 2020 13:55

And btw chinook were shipped in thr water ships to gujarat port and Apache were shipped in through aircraft at hindon.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Gyan » 20 Apr 2020 19:13

My list of ****** up procurement system & hostile attitude to indigenisation. Major R&D projects & orders for indigenous products have disappeared after Avinash Chandra was fired & Jaitely demitted as DM. List of step children:-

*LUH
*LCH
*HTT-40
*LCA MKIA
*Arjun Mk IA - Mk2
*ATAGS
*Kalyani ULH 155MM, 105MM
*Akash 1S
*QRSAM
*NAG
*MCIWS
*VIDHWANSK
*JVPC
*DRDO OFB LMG
*OFB HMG
*OFB Sniper Rifle
*Amogha 1, 2, 3
*CLGM-SAMHO
*DRDO AFV
*DRDO BMD missile system

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rishi_Tri » 20 Apr 2020 19:42

Gerard wrote:IAF Apache copter makes precautionary landing
“The helicopter, after approximately 1hr of flying, had indications of a critical failure and carried out a safe landing west of Indora, Punjab. The captain of the aircraft took correct and prompt actions to recover the helicopter safely,” The IAF said in a statement. All crew onboard the helicopter were safe and there had been no damage to any property. “The aircraft will be recovered after necessary rectification,” the IAF said.

This one is for the ages.

True - Damsel in Distress. :rotfl: Would really like to know how does the Damsel get back home? Hitching a ride on 'Jugaad' that are still ubiquitous. That shall be for ages too. :rotfl: This should go into brochures for - can land anywhere, literally anywhere without harming the verdant fields.

Had this been LCH, Dhruv, or Rudra, the daggers would have been out!! :evil:

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ks_sachin » 20 Apr 2020 20:09

Don’t include any of the small arms.

Our design efforts have not been good enough.

Build quality even worse including the JVPC i think.

No conspiracy theory here.

Gyan wrote:My list of ****** up procurement system & hostile attitude to indigenisation. Major R&D projects & orders for indigenous products have disappeared after Avinash Chandra was fired & Jaitely demitted as DM. List of step children:-

*LUH
*LCH
*HTT-40
*LCA MKIA
*Arjun Mk IA - Mk2
*ATAGS
*Kalyani ULH 155MM, 105MM
*Akash 1S
*QRSAM
*NAG
*MCIWS
*VIDHWANSK
*JVPC
*DRDO OFB LMG
*OFB HMG
*OFB Sniper Rifle
*Amogha 1, 2, 3
*CLGM-SAMHO
*DRDO AFV
*DRDO BMD missile system

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sajaym » 21 Apr 2020 16:06

Rishi_Tri wrote:...Would really like to know how does the Damsel get back home?

Thankfully Khan has already sold us the solution to such problems... :lol:

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And if that too fails...we have another solution also...

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 21 Apr 2020 18:36

Please no more on MiG-21 vs F-16 discussion in here. I have moved the relevant posts to the correct thread.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 21 Apr 2020 19:08

The Apache returned to its airbase under its own power.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby MeshaVishwas » 23 Apr 2020 23:32


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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 24 Apr 2020 05:43

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