Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12423
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 20 Feb 2020 12:36

Avinandan wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:There is no Helicopter hanger or even space/ weight of a proper Targeting radar will be an issue. There is really no space for ASM or even CIWS. Best can be attached is Naval gun in the front


Aditya ji,
You might be taking this product lightly.
Helicopter Hanger is present.

https://products.damen.com/en/ranges/offshore-patrol-vessel/offshore-patrol-vessel-1800?

And provisions are to be made for
1. Chinese ASW Helicopter
2. Main 30 mm Naval Gun
3. 1 Radar (behind the mast on some estension)
4. 2 Quad launchers for SSM (slanted , behind the mast)
5. 1 CIWS ( behind Starboard side funnel) possibly phalanx system from their ex ships.

Refer ship's top view at 1:24 to 1:40 of the below youtube video for point 2,34,5 above


Had a look at the video and model presented, there is no space for ASM or Helicopter Hanger, the 4 cross mounted missiles in the model can be best SAM's or really small ASM which will they compromise range.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12423
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 22 Feb 2020 10:54

ArjunPandit wrote:http://idrw.org/pakistan-tests-a-new-cruise-missile-can-it-hit-inside-india/

nothing worthwhile...apart from the line
"
Mansoor Ahmed, a senior fellow at the Center for International Strategic Studies in Islamabad who specializes in Pakistan’s nuclear program and its delivery platforms, believes the Ra’ad-II is “Pakistan’s answer to India’s development of the Nirbhay cruise missile.”
"
rohit vats put up a post of twitter tearing this test apart...low amount of explosive..sideways hit..the video reminded me of crash if first ironman suit built in a cave in afghanistan...which i think is close enough...


Actually this is significant, on 27-Feb-19 whent he H-4 Raad were launched by the Mirages, the IAF most probably jammed them in terminal phase ( these are probably the tricks which ACM Dhanoa was reffering to). The PAF commander visited SA in Oct-19 and Pakis are signalling they have updated thier communication equipment on these missiles

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5348
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Kartik » 27 Feb 2020 05:40

Pakistan's Chinese masters will most likely be the ones fulfilling this need as well.

the Z-10 was evaluated earlier and found wanting in several respects. Not at all idea for high altitude warfare. Will need to read up on the Z-10ME, which will anyway be a lot of speculation since no real specs ever get released for Chinese military products.

Pakistan considers Chinese attack helicopters on back of stalled AH-1Z and T-129 deals

Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3055
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Vips » 27 Feb 2020 09:04

The Porkis have gone from truly TFTA American maal to half european (semi potent) hardware to their true calling : Chini ding dong stuff. :rotfl:

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5348
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Kartik » 28 Feb 2020 03:43

yeah on this attack helicopter requirement at least, they're getting desperate now, to settle for the Z-10 which from reports I had read, did not impress them much during the sustained trials in Pakistan. The Apache procurement is what is driving this desperation. That makes it very clear that COIN ops is not the driving factor, but rather a desire to match whatever IA or IAF get.

In fact, Pakistan has set a deadline of July this year for a final decision, Ahmed says.

The relative urgency is driven by India’s capability increases, as New Delhi grows its fleet of Boeing AH-64E Apaches.

“The Cobras are no match for the Apaches that the Indians are getting,” he says. “We definitely want to match that [capability].”

Prithwiraj
BRFite
Posts: 251
Joined: 21 Dec 2016 18:48

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Prithwiraj » 28 Feb 2020 06:50

What happened to their buy of Mi-35 from Russia? No monnies?

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1694
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Khalsa » 28 Feb 2020 07:27

Kartik wrote:yeah on this attack helicopter requirement at least, they're getting desperate now, to settle for the Z-10 which from reports I had read, did not impress them much during the sustained trials in Pakistan. The Apache procurement is what is driving this desperation. That makes it very clear that COIN ops is not the driving factor, but rather a desire to match whatever IA or IAF get.

In fact, Pakistan has set a deadline of July this year for a final decision, Ahmed says.

The relative urgency is driven by India’s capability increases, as New Delhi grows its fleet of Boeing AH-64E Apaches.

“The Cobras are no match for the Apaches that the Indians are getting,” he says. “We definitely want to match that [capability].”


Awesome
Right where we want this to go.

Keep up with the Joneses please.
I want them to spend and buy something that overmatches an Apache ($$$$$$$$$$$$$)

Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2442
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Manish_P » 28 Feb 2020 09:14

Kartik wrote:.. The Apache procurement is what is driving this desperation. That makes it very clear that COIN ops is not the driving factor, but rather a desire to match whatever IA or IAF get.


Just wow. The heads of the Pak mil establishment showing enthusiast forums level thinking (necessitated by H&D purposes). Oh well, good for us. I really think that we should buy a squadron or two of the F-16/21 and see these idiots desperately running to make import 4 more squadrons of the bunder.

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1694
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Khalsa » 10 Mar 2020 14:40

Pakistan using its IL-78 as IL-76
Good use of expanding strategic lift capability when required.
(I assume we have had a go at doing the same on our birds)

Image

Image

g.sarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2663
Joined: 09 Jul 2005 12:22
Location: MERCED, California

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby g.sarkar » 10 Mar 2020 15:12

Vips wrote:The Porkis have gone from truly TFTA American maal to half european (semi potent) hardware to their true calling : Chini ding dong stuff. :rotfl:

Sirji,
Top notch Amrikee maal did not save them in the wars with India. So, why waste more Amrikhan money? Better waste Chini money on raddi maal from Sugarland. In any case Pak will not pay markit wali daam for any thing.
Gautam

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5348
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Kartik » 10 Mar 2020 23:38

Prithwiraj wrote:What happened to their buy of Mi-35 from Russia? No monnies?


They only bought 4. No follow on deal after that.

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4900
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby chola » 11 Mar 2020 00:34

Khalsa wrote:Pakistan using its IL-78 as IL-76
Good use of expanding strategic lift capability when required.
(I assume we have had a go at doing the same on our birds)

LOL. Those Pakis in their hazmat suits look like they're scared stiff to be breathing the air in Cheen.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4623
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Cain Marko » 11 Mar 2020 05:09

chola wrote:
Khalsa wrote:Pakistan using its IL-78 as IL-76
Good use of expanding strategic lift capability when required.
(I assume we have had a go at doing the same on our birds)

LOL. Those Pakis in their hazmat suits look like they're scared stiff to be breathing the air in Cheen.

I'm not even sure those are hazmat suits. Just scrubs with hoodies looks like. As usual, if it's from tsp, it's fake.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12423
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 11 Mar 2020 12:34

AOA some good news, Haram link

PAF F-16 fighter crashes near Islamabad

On 2nd thoughts why was a PAF F-16 over ISloo, upcoming Pakistan Day celebrations practice? or IAF activity which is making them to be there?

75-1 Thanks to Wing Commander Abhinandan and 1 more , F16 count is down to 73.

Picklu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2110
Joined: 25 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Picklu » 11 Mar 2020 13:01

After Feb 27, a F 16 had to publicly crash ;)

A better face saver story than concocting something like losing one against a pig on the runway.

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1694
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Khalsa » 11 Mar 2020 14:04

It was practice for the celebrations indeed. The F-16s must be having a rather increased role to play in the parade due to Swift Retort.
This is part and parcel of life. Operational hazard as they say.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12423
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 11 Mar 2020 14:11

Question is there are videos of the plane crash, any videos of the Pilot Parachuting and what colour it was?

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21057
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Philip » 11 Mar 2020 14:19

Operation " Swift retreat" ! The classic manoeuvre of the Paki army.Time-tested many a time in the last century to date.
Well, the fate of the pilot unknown as of now, but the loss of the machine pleasurable. One less for the IAF to shoot down though.

Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2442
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Manish_P » 11 Mar 2020 14:42

Apparent videos of the same

Image

and

Image

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12423
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 11 Mar 2020 14:55

The Pilots name as per Twitter sources was Nauman Akram- different from Nauman Ali khan? The reason for the F-16- I am yet to see JF-17 completing a loop.

Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2442
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Manish_P » 11 Mar 2020 15:07

Yes. Said to be this guy

JF-17 retains PAF’s top fighter slot at armament competition

Image

Not sure from the article if he was a JF17 guy or an F16 one...

The Number 11 squadron which won the trophy is a F16 squadron.
Number 2 is JF17 squadron.
Number 8 is Mirage 5

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1694
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Khalsa » 11 Mar 2020 15:34

Looks like they lost the CO or OC of the Griffins. One of the crem-de-la-crem F-16 squadrons out of Sargodha
He was flying a single seater a/c.

Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3055
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Vips » 11 Mar 2020 18:04

You kufr the pakistani pilot exhibited superior 'jazbaa' in crashing the F solah. :rotfl:

Even with limited number of hours in the air (due to resource crunch) this is the 4th Fizzle ya bird to crash this calendar year. What would be the rate if all porki pilots get to fly their regular hours?

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9807
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Rakesh » 11 Mar 2020 18:15

Manish_P wrote:Yes. Said to be this guy

Not sure from the article if he was a JF17 guy or an F16 one...

The Number 11 squadron which won the trophy is a F16 squadron.
Number 2 is JF17 squadron.
Number 8 is Mirage 5

Can see the patch of No 9 Sqn, Griffins on Wing Commander Noman Akram's right shoulder.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9807
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Rakesh » 11 Mar 2020 18:34

Another one of Wing Commander Noman Akram....note the Su-30MKI models at left. Nice camo scheme on the Rambha.

Image

Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2442
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Manish_P » 11 Mar 2020 18:38

^ well spotted, Rakesh ji

Number 9 is an F16 squadron. So probably looks like it was him.

Can't ever trust the Pakis though..

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5348
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Kartik » 11 Mar 2020 23:52

Khalsa wrote:Looks like they lost the CO or OC of the Griffins. One of the crem-de-la-crem F-16 squadrons out of Sargodha
He was flying a single seater a/c.


Yup, a senior pilot, being a Wing Cmdr. Big loss for the PAF. But he clearly miscalculated the height at which to initiate the loop. Was simply too low to pull it off. Badly piloted.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4056
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 12 Mar 2020 00:14

PAF has had 4 crashes this year.

Looks like intense flying and CAP in 2019 has hit them hard. So far they were sitting cosy managing airframe life. Now they need to fly more, train more pilots, spend more money..

Out of the lot they have, JF17 is the only one on which can manage airframe life.

On the other hand we can belt our Su30, LCA, if required Jaguars. We produce parts locally.

Claims of victory on Feb 27 by Pak did not notice that PAF is now in game of attrition. They have to replace older airframe with JF17, as they loose airframe life.

We need constant threats by our leaders and some intense flying towards LC by IAF. We want PAF to be on the toes, putting pressure on their F16 airframe life, on Aim120 etc.

The objective should be to reduce the life on those F16s..

Rohit_K
BRFite
Posts: 590
Joined: 09 Nov 2006 22:53
Location: atop Sukkur Barage

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Rohit_K » 12 Mar 2020 01:30

Phone recording of the CCTV footage of impact.

Says ‘China Friendship’ on the top right corner, so assuming it was captured from the Pak China Friendship Centre in Shakarparian


Bart S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2438
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 00:03

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Bart S » 12 Mar 2020 03:42

https://twitter.com/nailainayat/status/ ... 83299?s=20
According to this female Paki news anchor the pilot couldn't 'ejaculate' :shock:

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1694
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Khalsa » 12 Mar 2020 04:07

Kartik wrote:
Khalsa wrote:Looks like they lost the CO or OC of the Griffins. One of the crem-de-la-crem F-16 squadrons out of Sargodha
He was flying a single seater a/c.


Yup, a senior pilot, being a Wing Cmdr. Big loss for the PAF. But he clearly miscalculated the height at which to initiate the loop. Was simply too low to pull it off. Badly piloted.

Aye sir.

Also if you could view the video from the side and right underneath. I will put up links later. He is not pulling back on the stick and de-accelerating on the way down. He is coming down like rock with acceleration which tells me that he g-locked just on the way up. I.e. he woke up when he was on the way down.

Very aggressive start of the loop with poor safety factor factored in.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9807
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Rakesh » 12 Mar 2020 04:12

Bart S wrote: https://twitter.com/nailainayat/status/ ... 83299?s=20
According to this female Paki news anchor the pilot couldn't 'ejaculate' :shock:

Oh my goodness. I can't believe she actually said that! :lol:

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5348
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Kartik » 12 Mar 2020 04:27

Khalsa wrote:
Kartik wrote:
Yup, a senior pilot, being a Wing Cmdr. Big loss for the PAF. But he clearly miscalculated the height at which to initiate the loop. Was simply too low to pull it off. Badly piloted.

Aye sir.

Also if you could view the video from the side and right underneath. I will put up links later. He is not pulling back on the stick and de-accelerating on the way down. He is coming down like rock with acceleration which tells me that he g-locked just on the way up. I.e. he woke up when he was on the way down.

Very aggressive start of the loop with poor safety factor factored in.


Reminds me of a Thunderbirds crash where the pilot miscalculated the height at which to begin the loop and simply couldn't pull up in time. He wasn't G-LOC'ed but rather just couldn't pull any more Gs and then the ground was right there.



14 September 2003: Captain Chris Stricklin, flying Thunderbird No. 6 (F-16), crashed during an airshow at Mountain Home AFB, Idaho.[24] Immediately after takeoff, Stricklin attempted a "Split S" maneuver (which he had successfully performed over 200 times) based on an incorrect mean-sea-level elevation of the airfield, 1,100 ft (340 m) higher than the home base at Nellis. Climbing to only 1,670 ft (510 m) above ground level instead of 2,500 ft (760 m), Stricklin had insufficient altitude to complete the maneuver, but guided the F-16C aircraft down the runway away from the spectators and ejected less than one second before impact. He survived with only minor injuries and no one on the ground was injured, but the $20 million aircraft was completely destroyed. Official procedure for demonstration "split S" maneuvers was changed, and the USAF now requires Thunderbird pilots and airshow ground controllers to both work in above-MSL (mean-sea-level) altitudes, as opposed to ground control working in AGL (above-ground-level) and pilots in MSL, which led to two sets of numbers that had to be reconciled by the pilot. Thunderbird pilots now also climb an extra 1,000 ft (300 m) before performing the Split S maneuver.[25]


Captain Chris Stricklin ejected at the very last second, Wing Cmdr Noman Akram perished.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23623
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby chetak » 12 Mar 2020 14:41

Bart S wrote:https://twitter.com/nailainayat/status/1237857430710583299?s=20
According to this female Paki news anchor the pilot couldn't 'ejaculate' :shock:


what was he flying: stick or d!(k :mrgreen:

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4900
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby chola » 12 Mar 2020 16:38

Bart S wrote:https://twitter.com/nailainayat/status/1237857430710583299?s=20
According to this female Paki news anchor the pilot couldn't 'ejaculate' :shock:


LOL. He couldn't ejaculate because he was probably peeing when he realized he'd miscalculated the loop.

ranjan.rao
BRFite
Posts: 520
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 01:21

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby ranjan.rao » 12 Mar 2020 17:16

Khalsa wrote:
Kartik wrote:
Yup, a senior pilot, being a Wing Cmdr. Big loss for the PAF. But he clearly miscalculated the height at which to initiate the loop. Was simply too low to pull it off. Badly piloted.

Aye sir.

Also if you could view the video from the side and right underneath. I will put up links later. He is not pulling back on the stick and de-accelerating on the way down. He is coming down like rock with acceleration which tells me that he g-locked just on the way up. I.e. he woke up when he was on the way down.

Very aggressive start of the loop with poor safety factor factored in.

these are teh same guys who say sargadha..oops..sarfada..ooops....Sargodha AF training facility is the besht..AF training facility with pilots decide their own programs and fly F16s at tree top level...

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9807
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Rakesh » 12 Mar 2020 18:39

The link below (click and scroll down) also displays Wing Commander Noman Akram's body, but someone has said that the video is fake. The video shows a pilot who ejected from an aircraft. It is my understanding that he did not eject.

The red text below is my notes and the Urdu I translated into English via Google Translate.

https://twitter.com/Carloskhan69/status ... 13280?s=20 ---> Last 10 seconds conversation between Wing Comd Noman Akram and ATC. This brave son and brother of us could have ejected in time but he wanted to avoid populated area and sacrificed his life in process. He had a lions heart in his body. He like hundreds of other brave young men is our pride. May Allah bless him in heavens. May Allah protect his family. Amen.

CALL SIGN GRIFFINS: MAY DAY MAY DAY
ATC: EJECT IMMEDIATELY
CALL SIGN GRIFFINS: WILL CLEAR POPULATION
ATC: C FIRM (confirm?)
ATC: C FIRM
ATC: C FIRM
CALL SIGN GRIFFINS: CLOSE TO JUNGLE
ATC: TIME SHORT
ATC: DROPPING ALTITUDE FAST
ATC: EJECT ASP
CALL SIGN GRIFFINS: الحمداللہ (Praise be to Allah!)
ATC: Griffins 1 .....................................send over

sajaym
BRFite
Posts: 161
Joined: 04 Feb 2019 09:11

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby sajaym » 12 Mar 2020 18:59

In the video, the chute is still attached to the seat. So could indicate last minute ejection or that he could've even been thrown out of the jet as it impacted the ground. There was once a story i read on brf of an IAF sardar pilot who got thrown out of his mig-21 as it crashed during low level exercise. The sardar escaped alive!

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9807
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby Rakesh » 12 Mar 2020 21:07

So someone took a close up shot of the F-16 that crashed. See this picture. The aircraft has the serial number of 92730 and you can see the last three digits of the serial number near the nose of the aircraft.

https://twitter.com/Ahmer_Shah/status/1 ... 79393?s=20 ---> Wing Commander Noman Akram entering Shakar Parian Parade Ground Arena today. Picture was captured by Rana Suhaib Photography, just a moment before the crash.

Image

Another picture of 92730 from earlier....

http://www.f-16.net/g3/f-16-photos/albu ... um18/92730

Image

manjgu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2485
Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33

Re: Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread

Postby manjgu » 12 Mar 2020 21:49

the vid/pic of the pilot shows a rural agri area...where as the plane crashed in a urban area..looks not credible.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Avinandan, chola, Google [Bot] and 64 guests