Indian Military Helicopters

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MeshaVishwas
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby MeshaVishwas » 24 Apr 2020 06:37

I wonder how Osprey pilots are categorised...
:D

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ks_sachin » 24 Apr 2020 10:23

MeshaVishwas wrote:I wonder how Osprey pilots are categorised...
:D

Openly introverted and buoyantly brooding!!

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby raghuk » 29 Apr 2020 20:45

Shubham wrote:
sajaym wrote:I have never really understood why these and the Chinooks are flown to & assembled in Hindon AFB. Why are these choppers not first flown to the B'lore HAL helicopter division, assembled, flight-tested and THEN handed over to the IA & IAF?

I guess we dont want people of different nationality getting mixed. :rotfl: Hindon must have lodging and boarding facilities for khans already available since others khan friends must be already chilling out there

HAL helicopter division has only Indian nationals. Also I don't understand why HAL would ever be willing to handle helicopters of which we have no idea whatsoever. We may be curious to study the machine but nothing more than that.


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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Roop » 03 May 2020 06:22

basant wrote:An RAF pilot on 114 HU.


Basant, that was a wonderful read. Thanks so much for posting it.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby basant » 03 May 2020 16:44

Roop wrote:
basant wrote:An RAF pilot on 114 HU.


Basant, that was a wonderful read. Thanks so much for posting it.

Thank you Roop!

I forgot to add in the post that comments are a must read. Most of them are from vets from the Unit. :)

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Shubham » 09 May 2020 10:03

A difficult rescue mission by Cheetah helicopters to retrieve the stranded ppl of Mi17 helicopter which suffered a force landing in probably bad weather in far flung north Sikkim valley. Elevation reported in excess of 15000 ft.

Note the almost whiteout conditions during the rescue attempt.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.news18.com/amp/photogallery/india/army-iafs-daring-rescue-ops-in-sikkim-photos-2612159.html

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby SSridhar » 09 May 2020 16:32

basant wrote:
Roop wrote:Basant, that was a wonderful read. Thanks so much for posting it.

Thank you Roop!

I forgot to add in the post that comments are a must read. Most of them are from vets from the Unit. :)

Brilliant, both the narrative and the comments. Thank you, basant.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Larry Walker » 09 May 2020 18:36

https://youtu.be/cwRkDtvLIQc

Just wondering if 20 of these light attack helicopters would go a long way in CI ops in JnK. Gives army a very versatile gun only platform which can attack cordonednoff or hidden targets from unexpected angles along with providing moving suppressing fire while troops manoeuvre into positions.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby pushkar.bhat » 10 May 2020 13:31

Larry Walker wrote:https://youtu.be/cwRkDtvLIQc

Just wondering if 20 of these light attack helicopters would go a long way in CI ops in JnK. Gives army a very versatile gun only platform which can attack cordonednoff or hidden targets from unexpected angles along with providing moving suppressing fire while troops manoeuvre into positions.


Wouldn't the HAL Lancer fall into a similar category.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Manish_P » 10 May 2020 20:14

The HAL Lancer would be broadly in the same category. It's cockpit has been said to be bullet proof against small arms fire.

But i am not sure if a gun run with the twin gunpods, even if restricted to only the 12.7 mm guns, would be ideal in urban/semiurban COIN & Anti-terrorist ops. Perhaps a better option would be pintle mounted MGs on the sides. Would need either door gunners or remotely operated by Copilot/Pilot.

However I think our policy, so far, has been against using air power in COIN ops?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rsatchi » 10 May 2020 20:42

Manish_P wrote:The HAL Lancer would be broadly in the same category.

However I think our policy, so far, has been against using air power in COIN ops?

Manishji
But for how long and at what cost??
Terrorist/Naxals seem to realise this lacunae in the COIN operations and take advantage!!
Just a pooch is it a Legal issue not to use firepower or the LeLi/Amnesty/Human Rights group backlash that is preventing.
Also how safe is Lancer from counter attack.
The other concern is the proliferation of MANPADS amongst the terrorist/Naxals

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Manish_P » 10 May 2020 21:09

Sir, i said that it was the current GOI policy. Not that i agreed with it.

I don't know about manpad proliferation in J&K as such, but low-level helicopter flying in urban areas is difficult enough. The cockpit glass might be bullet proof but i don't know about the tail rotor, fan blades, engine cover etc. IIRC even the mighty Apaches have received damages from small arms fire.

One other factor, apart from the possible negative western press/Amnesty/HR etc, could be the OPEX costs. The bean-counters in the MOD/GOI, in their all-knowing gyaan, might not look too kindly on the IA using armed hepters in such operations.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Mollick.R » 13 May 2020 10:37

HAL may enter as government revisits Navy chopper plan
By Manu Pubby, ET Bureau|Last Updated: May 12, 2020, 11.54 PM IST

New Delhi: The defence ministry is re-evaluating its big ‘Make in India’ plan to manufacture naval utility helicopters. The companies have been asked to explain if the programme has export potential and the Centre is also looking at giving Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) a chance to enter the competition.

The Rs 21,000-crore plan to manufacture naval utility helicopters in partnership with a foreign vendor has been in the works for over a year and important decisions on going to the next step of technical evaluation have to be taken shortly.

Sources said queries have been sent to Indian and foreign companies bidding for the project to understand if there are plans to continue the line beyond the 111 helicopters envisaged to meet exports in both civil and military markets.

The ministry is also assessing if a lesser number of choppers were to be ordered, what the impact would be on technology transfer and cost viability.

There is an apprehension that the project could be cut down in numbers as the ministry is revising all procurement plans due to an anticipated budget cut.

Sources also said the HAL, which has been making a strong pitch for its Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH), could get a chance to enter the competition if it is able to develop compliant prototypes, within a specified period of time.

The state-owned company has been pitching a naval variant of the ALH with folding rotor blades and tail but is yet to develop a prototype.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/hal-may-enter-as-government-revisits-navy-chopper-plan/printarticle/75704072.cms

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby deejay » 13 May 2020 10:53

Manish_P wrote:Sir, i said that it was the current GOI policy. Not that i agreed with it.

I don't know about manpad proliferation in J&K as such, but low-level helicopter flying in urban areas is difficult enough. The cockpit glass might be bullet proof but i don't know about the tail rotor, fan blades, engine cover etc. IIRC even the mighty Apaches have received damages from small arms fire.

One other factor, apart from the possible negative western press/Amnesty/HR etc, could be the OPEX costs. The bean-counters in the MOD/GOI, in their all-knowing gyaan, might not look too kindly on the IA using armed hepters in such operations.


Cockpit glass is not bullet proof

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Manish_P » 13 May 2020 14:45

:(

Would make them more vulnerable

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kartik » 16 May 2020 05:01

Not sure whether that's an IAF Apache fuselage, but built in India hence posting here

From an internal Boeing article, hence no link.

Image
An Apache AH-64 fuselage had just left the Tata Boeing Aerospace Limited facilities in Hyderabad, India on March 23 when the Boeing India team faced a critical challenge of country infrastructure on lockdown to prevent the spread of the coronavirus.

The fuselage was bound for a ship in Mumbai, with Mesa, Arizona, as its ultimate destination and the U.S. Army expecting to take delivery as scheduled.

States shut their borders and the fuselage was at risk of missing its connection. The next U.S.-flagged ship would not depart until a week later and would potentially cause significant delays for the Apache production line.

Ashwani Bhargava, a director in the Enterprise Supply Chain Delivery and Performance team in India, admitted some nervousness in the business when they realized the fuselage had been prevented from traveling from their location in the state of Telangana to Maharashtra, where the port of Mumbai is based.

“As a supply chain, we work through multiple challenges and high business expectations — the Apache program was looking to us to deliver,” he said. “Though the coronavirus crisis came upon us suddenly, it also sparked creativity inherent in a global team like ours to meet program requirements.”

Teams from Tata Boeing Aerospace Limited, Boeing International, Boeing International Enterprise Services and Transportation, and Warehousing & Logistics mobilized to obtain special permissions and passes from Indian state authorities and police departments, allowing the shipment to cross state lines and make its planned departure by sea.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby prasan » 16 May 2020 09:43


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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Mort Walker » 16 May 2020 09:58

US Navy Rushes Its Sub-Hunting Helicopters To India, Eye On China

“This really was one of the higher priorities the [Indian] navy had, to get these aircraft delivered," Tom Kane, director of Sikorsky’s Naval Helicopter Programs, says. "I requested that the aircraft be made available on an accelerated basis.”

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Guddu » 16 May 2020 19:41

Nice disinformation in the article about the timeline. It does not take the US 4 years to make 21 helicopters.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby srai » 18 May 2020 07:12

^^^
From the article:
...

With New Delhi in a hurry to begin getting the state-of-the-art helicopters into use, and the US government eager to pull India closer as a hedge against growing Chinese naval capabilities, the US Navy allowed Sikorsky to take three of its brand new MH-60R Sea Hawks and begin modifying them to Indian standards to deliver next spring. The Navy will receive new MH-60R’s in a few years to replace them. The remaining 21 helicopters will be delivered in 2023 and 2024.

...


It’s typical in the aerospace industry: order to first lot delivery is around 24-36 months. An aircraft relies on hundreds of Tier-1/2/3 materials/parts/components suppliers and manufacturers. Supply chain needs time to gear up. After that it depends on production capacity and other orders for how long to deliver the remaining.

Only way to get few airframes earlier is if another client forgoes part of their orders like in this case where the USN is transferring 3 of its completed production units to IN.

Besides, infrastructure setup and training of personnel take up a lot of time as well. 24-36 months to first lot deliveries provide time to get the auxiliaries in place.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Aditya_V » 18 May 2020 08:48

Its pertinent to note that even the bigges for established products take 3-5 years after orders to deliver. We expect local products to be delivered without orders. We need to take some risks with our local products to order to set up production ecosystems.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 18 May 2020 23:23

Anantha Krishnan M
@writetake
Butt firing of 12 mm gun fitted on
@IndiaCoastGuard
ALH Dhruv. Engineers at #HAL working on various improvements on #Dhruv have integrated 19 new systems for CG/naval variants. A new radar & EO pod are part of the pack. #Avgeeks
https://bit.ly/2LDFLqa
@akananth

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 18 May 2020 23:44

This FY2020-21 both CG and IN will take delivery of 12 navalised ALH each i.e, 24 nos of total 32 on order.
Hope the NLUH order goes to ALH soon.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby titash » 19 May 2020 01:25

sankum wrote:Anantha Krishnan M
@writetake
Butt firing of 12 mm gun fitted on
@IndiaCoastGuard
ALH Dhruv. Engineers at #HAL working on various improvements on #Dhruv have integrated 19 new systems for CG/naval variants. A new radar & EO pod are part of the pack. #Avgeeks
https://bit.ly/2LDFLqa
@akananth


This ALH has a radar in the nose. It's not a vanilla SAR helicopter like the previous ALH delivered to the navy and the coast guard. I think the 16 naval helicopters may be capable of ASW ops (fingers crossed)

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 19 May 2020 01:35

The 16 nos IN helicopter order is for ASW version. The nose radar will have only 180 degree coverage as per HAL tender.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 19 May 2020 01:52

Kaypius makes a strong pitch against ALH as Naval LUH.

MAKE THE NUH AN EXAMPLE OF ATMA NIRBHARTA (SELF-RELIANCE)

I agree that HAL needs competition. But, does it have to be through screwdrivergiri in a private company?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 19 May 2020 02:12

It's a baised article . The writer to his convenience dose not even mention that 32 naval Dhruv are on order for CG and IN for operations from ships with new manual main rotor folding mechanism.
So much for these votaries of building competition to HAL at huge imported cost instead of saying privatise HAL.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 19 May 2020 02:29

What HAL will do is make this new main rotor folding automatic which earlier they were not doing as it will add 100 kg weight and develop a new tail rotor folding mechanism for NUH.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 19 May 2020 04:01

A lot of ex-service/in-service people are totally biased against HAL and indigenous products period. They do their best to write arcane GSQRs and help propagate convenient half-truths. Their agenda is mostly based on the fact that they do not wish to fly Indian products. The whole rubbish about bringing a private player does not take into account the R&D cost and the added benefit of future generations of products. They just compare past and near present. There is no strategic thinking as their requirements only care about improving the outcome for them or get enabled on the type for their betterment. I form these opinions after having talked to enough of IAF/IN personnel who I know personally.

It would be nice to see a rebuttal even on this one. 24 MH60R and possibly another 16/24 follow on is enough for ASW work. A lot of other use-cases for IN may not require the legs and higher AUW in the 111 order. In my personal opinion, as the current fleet stands, Dhruv can quite easily be used for almost 85-90% of all use cases. The 10-20% use case for ASW work is already being carved out for MH-60R.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 19 May 2020 20:41

https://www.defenseworld.net/news/14062 ... sPwQ1PhUew

. But now HAL has cracked the problem. Two of the Dhruv’s rotors fold into the body of the aircraft, while one remains straight outward. So the Indian navy also is changing the hangar designs and making them longer of new vessels like the INS Sumitra class of OPVs.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 19 May 2020 21:15

*VIDEO* ----> Click on link below...

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/12 ... 70305?s=20 ---> Butt firing of 12 mm gun fitted on Indian Coast Guard HAL Dhruv. Engineers at HAL working on various improvements on Dhruv, have integrated 19 new systems for CG/naval variants. A new radar & EO pod are part of the pack.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 19 May 2020 21:57

Tail folding will reduce the folded length of Naval Dhruv from 16m to 14m.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Sumair » 19 May 2020 23:05

I wonder if a folding deck hanger would be a better approach to saving space.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Manish_P » 21 May 2020 22:10

Good video of the LCH helmet pov

Been a time coming. Waiting eagerly for the day we see Pakis being ripped apart by canon fire from this bird

https://youtu.be/3AHhmDwEamM

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby MeshaVishwas » 21 May 2020 22:12


From AK Saar.
8)

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby KiranC » 22 May 2020 13:28

Dear Gurus/Senior members, good day sirs, can you share your views if ALH Dhruv naval version is well suited for IN in terms of range and endurance?
There was a critical comment in one of the articles saying endurance with a single torpedo and sonar sonobuoys is just 30 mins -would this be true?
What would be the effective endurance be at standard load out in SAR, ASUW and ASW mode.
Again would the ALH naval version subject to satisfying Navy with blade folding and stowage dimensions be a good choice viz a viz any imports considering its for Naval utility task purposes?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 22 May 2020 16:26

The hit job that is been done to naval Dhruv is similar to that being done on Tejas with lot of misinformation, false data .

IN has already ordered 16 nos ASW version to 8 nos utility version in service. CG had also ordered 16 nos for ship borne operation. These helicopters feature new manual main rotor folding mechanism were one blade remains in front and two rotors are folded back to keep the folded width less than 3.5m instead of earlier 5.1m when all 4 main rotor blades were folded back. These was the main criticism as the folded width was required to be less than 3.5m.
The drawback in new scheme is that as per my estimate the folded length will be 16m instead of 14.5m.
For all the 4 blades to be folded back and maintain folded width of less than 3.5m new segmented rotor blades needed to be developed like LUH, Naval Panther were the main rotor blade is in two parts.
Now hit jobs even by former defence personal are talking about developing segmented rotor blades like LUH are not even informed or deliberately blind that no new segmented blades are being developed. Only the old folding mechanism is modified with no additional risk. For NLUH only this main rotor folding is being automated and new tail rotor folding mechanism to reduce folded length to 14m from 16m ,also reduced folded height.
The range, endurance hit job is similar to that being done for Tejas. Dhruv has 1.1 T internal fuel for MTOW of 5.5T i.e 20% fuel fraction same as naval Panther .
Naval Dhruv beat naval Panther in two RFP for 16 nos Helos in all parameter. All hit jobs don't talk about the 32 nos Naval Dhruv order of IN and CG. One hitjob also saying that it is costlier than International options . The fact is Dhruv is larger and more capable than comparitive import options.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 22 May 2020 17:19

Naval Dhruv on ASW mission.
Empty weight 2800kg
Internal fuel 1100kg
4 Crew 400 kg
2*LWTorpedo 450kg
Sounboys 250 kg
Dunking Sonar 300kg
Radar 100kg
Total 5400kg
HAL website is now giving MTOW of 5800kg and endurance of 3..8 hours.
For continuous hovering we can estimate endurance at 70%
For ASW mission Endurance can be estimated at 2.5 hours.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 22 May 2020 21:34

The naval Dhruv ASW version is capable of converting to utility version in half hour by removal of Sonar equipment.


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