Indian Military Helicopters

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ArjunPandit
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ArjunPandit » 23 May 2020 00:39

LCH production was quite faced paced 30 per year...for a confirmed order of ~180 (114 Army +65 Air Force) it is quite good pace....

https://zeenews.india.com/karnataka/uni ... 66772.html

Given current delays..i think 10 years will be a reasonable expectation for delivery...

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby John » 23 May 2020 02:49

ArjunPandit wrote:LCH production was quite faced paced 30 per year...for a confirmed order of ~180 (114 Army +65 Air Force) it is quite good pace....

https://zeenews.india.com/karnataka/uni ... 66772.html

Given current delays..i think 10 years will be a reasonable expectation for delivery...

Did orders come thru? I thought HAL hasn’t received them yet.
Last edited by John on 23 May 2020 03:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nachiket » 23 May 2020 02:59

The production hangar was inaugurated before any order was signed. It was discussed here back then.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby KiranC » 23 May 2020 07:30

sankum wrote:The naval Dhruv ASW version is capable of converting to utility version in half hour by removal of Sonar equipment.

Dear Sankum sir, thank you for all the info shared, truly glad to hear!

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Atmavik » 23 May 2020 09:03

KiranC wrote:Dear Gurus/Senior members, good day sirs, can you share your views if ALH Dhruv naval version is well suited for IN in terms of range and endurance?
There was a critical comment in one of the articles saying endurance with a single torpedo and sonar sonobuoys is just 30 mins -would this be true?
What would be the effective endurance be at standard load out in SAR, ASUW and ASW mode.
Again would the ALH naval version subject to satisfying Navy with blade folding and stowage dimensions be a good choice viz a viz any imports considering its for Naval utility task purposes?


I believe you are referring to this article (printed in times of India). the author is a reputed test Heli pilot from IN. i can assure you he is the last person to do a hit job. we have discussed his other blog posts here and he is quite supportive of Indian efforts. please do read his other blog posts if you have time.

https://kaypius.com/2020/05/18/make-the ... -reliance/

the Problem with ALH is it was designed for Hot and High performance(will post a video of wing co. unni pillai) for IAF and IA. it is not optimized for plains or sea level. it was discussed if we could build another transmission for sea level/plains but Raghuk clarified that it would be a new helicopter. and in any case Naval requirements are very different from air force. auto blade folding is just an add on issue.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Karan M » 23 May 2020 09:09

Great job SankuM.
TBH, I was taken aback by how limited some of the arguments made by Kaypius were. For instance his claim we should revisit the amount of effort it takes to develop indigenous sensors, and then add to the costing to disadvantage local gear. Is he even serious?
One would have thought somebody with his background would fundamentally understand how hard ab-initio product development is, and how important indigenous sensors are, over platforms even. One can understand disappointment that one item that he was personally involved in didn't see service, but thats exactly what other countries did, product after product, and which is why they sit at the top of the technology totem pole. And then he thinks making some foreign aircraft in India will automatically give us control over the supply chain. Good luck with that. Turkey did that for ages, and now they are literally investing millions in making their own platforms, after learning same as we did, that hand-held, limited TOT counts for little in terms of IP control and making your own independent platforms.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ks_sachin » 23 May 2020 09:35

Atmavik wrote:
KiranC wrote:Dear Gurus/Senior members, good day sirs, can you share your views if ALH Dhruv naval version is well suited for IN in terms of range and endurance?
There was a critical comment in one of the articles saying endurance with a single torpedo and sonar sonobuoys is just 30 mins -would this be true?
What would be the effective endurance be at standard load out in SAR, ASUW and ASW mode.
Again would the ALH naval version subject to satisfying Navy with blade folding and stowage dimensions be a good choice viz a viz any imports considering its for Naval utility task purposes?


I believe you are referring to this article (printed in times of India). the author is a reputed test Heli pilot from IN. i can assure you he is the last person to do a hit job. we have discussed his other blog posts here and he is quite supportive of Indian efforts. please do read his other blog posts if you have time.

https://kaypius.com/2020/05/18/make-the ... -reliance/

the Problem with ALH is it was designed for Hot and High performance(will post a video of wing co. unni pillai) for IAF and IA. it is not optimized for plains or sea level. it was discussed if we could build another transmission for sea level/plains but Raghuk clarified that it would be a new helicopter. and in any case Naval requirements are very different from air force. auto blade folding is just an add on issue.

This ALH gearbox supposedly for hot and high and lack of suitability for sea ops was also debunked by WingCo Unni Pillai.
What is the flight profile in the ASW area for example and does the current gearbox help or hinder?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby srin » 23 May 2020 09:42

Too much FUD going on. I'm still unable to get answers to two questions ...
- Does Dhruv have auto-rotor folding that meets Navy's requirements ?
- Does Dhruv have comparable or more endurance than the current contenders (like Panther or S76 ?) ?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby deejay » 23 May 2020 12:17

Karan M wrote:Great job SankuM.
TBH, I was taken aback by how limited some of the arguments made by Kaypius were. For instance his claim we should revisit the amount of effort it takes to develop indigenous sensors, and then add to the costing to disadvantage local gear. Is he even serious?
One would have thought somebody with his background would fundamentally understand how hard ab-initio product development is, and how important indigenous sensors are, over platforms even. One can understand disappointment that one item that he was personally involved in didn't see service, but thats exactly what other countries did, product after product, and which is why they sit at the top of the technology totem pole. And then he thinks making some foreign aircraft in India will automatically give us control over the supply chain. Good luck with that. Turkey did that for ages, and now they are literally investing millions in making their own platforms, after learning same as we did, that hand-held, limited TOT counts for little in terms of IP control and making your own independent platforms.


I have disagreed with Kaypius forever. I don't find any merit in most of his arguments. I would ignore anything he says.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby KiranC » 24 May 2020 07:54

Atmavik wrote:
KiranC wrote:Dear Gurus/Senior members, good day sirs, can you share your views if ALH Dhruv naval version is well suited for IN in terms of range and endurance?
There was a critical comment in one of the articles saying endurance with a single torpedo and sonar sonobuoys is just 30 mins -would this be true?
What would be the effective endurance be at standard load out in SAR, ASUW and ASW mode.
Again would the ALH naval version subject to satisfying Navy with blade folding and stowage dimensions be a good choice viz a viz any imports considering its for Naval utility task purposes?


I believe you are referring to this article (printed in times of India). the author is a reputed test Heli pilot from IN. i can assure you he is the last person to do a hit job. we have discussed his other blog posts here and he is quite supportive of Indian efforts. please do read his other blog posts if you have time.

https://kaypius.com/2020/05/18/make-the ... -reliance/

the Problem with ALH is it was designed for Hot and High performance(will post a video of wing co. unni pillai) for IAF and IA. it is not optimized for plains or sea level. it was discussed if we could build another transmission for sea level/plains but Raghuk clarified that it would be a new helicopter. and in any case Naval requirements are very different from air force. auto blade folding is just an add on issue.


Yes, that is correct! Its hard not to be influenced by the quality of the writings and the arguments presented.
At the same time I read another complementing Kaypius, this time by Nikhil Gokhale.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Hiten » 24 May 2020 07:55

IAF Guns The World's Largest Helicopter, It's Mi-26, To The Top

Delightful bit of information, demonstrating challenges of Indian Military operation. This video clip, below, provides an enlightening glimpse of a system being pushed to the outer edges of it's capabilities. Watch this Indian Air Force [IAF] Mil Mi-26 Helicopter Halo execute a Maximum Performance Takeoff from a Helipad located high up in the snow-covered Himalayan mountains.


https://www.spansen.com/2020/05/iaf-gun ... Mi-26.html

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Manish_P » 24 May 2020 10:50

Reading that headline i thought our guys had added an improvised gun pod to the big heli :shock:

Heavy attack heli and Light Tank issues solved in one go :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby deejay » 24 May 2020 14:11

Hiten wrote:IAF Guns The World's Largest Helicopter, It's Mi-26, To The Top

Delightful bit of information, demonstrating challenges of Indian Military operation. This video clip, below, provides an enlightening glimpse of a system being pushed to the outer edges of it's capabilities. Watch this Indian Air Force [IAF] Mil Mi-26 Helicopter Halo execute a Maximum Performance Takeoff from a Helipad located high up in the snow-covered Himalayan mountains.


https://www.spansen.com/2020/05/iaf-gun ... Mi-26.html


To see these Giants in any airspace is a sight to remember. To see them operate in the extremes of Siachen Glacier is an experience of a different level. Pure rotormagic. Thank You for sharing this. Loved the video on the blog and if you do know the blogger, thank him from my side.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 25 May 2020 01:22

Present ASW holding of IN is 17nos Seaking B along with 10 ka 28 for a total of 27 Helos.

By 2021 end 16 nos ASW naval Dhruv and by 2024 24 nos Seahawk along with 6nos upg Ka28 i.e, 46 nos ASW helicopter.

Media is reporting that 111 NLUH Tender is dead as HAL has entered the fray with naval Dhruv.

It will be better if IN buys 60 naval Dhruv in 2022-25 period @20/year of which 24 nos can be ASW version to take the ASW helo strength to 70 Helicopters by 2025.

Just take the present version of manual folding of main rotor and no tail folding so that the whole requirement is met for $1b instead of $3b NLUH Tender.

NMRH tender can be cancelled for IMRH post 2030.

Ka 31 requirement was cut to 6 from 10 for new order.
Same will happen to other helicopter projects and latter indigenous Helos can be produced in large numbers.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Karan M » 25 May 2020 07:37

deejay wrote:
Karan M wrote:Great job SankuM.
TBH, I was taken aback by how limited some of the arguments made by Kaypius were. For instance his claim we should revisit the amount of effort it takes to develop indigenous sensors, and then add to the costing to disadvantage local gear. Is he even serious?
One would have thought somebody with his background would fundamentally understand how hard ab-initio product development is, and how important indigenous sensors are, over platforms even. One can understand disappointment that one item that he was personally involved in didn't see service, but thats exactly what other countries did, product after product, and which is why they sit at the top of the technology totem pole. And then he thinks making some foreign aircraft in India will automatically give us control over the supply chain. Good luck with that. Turkey did that for ages, and now they are literally investing millions in making their own platforms, after learning same as we did, that hand-held, limited TOT counts for little in terms of IP control and making your own independent platforms.


I have disagreed with Kaypius forever. I don't find any merit in most of his arguments. I would ignore anything he says.


Sadly - its more and more obvious what a huge gap there is between those pushing for a strong, self-reliant India and those content with imports, apron-strings. Some have given up with regards to desi-gear and will continue to do so, till things improve to the point they cannot ignore the developments any longer. Let it be so. Bash on regardless is all I can say, without compromising on safety or quality. By all means have stringent trials, but bash on.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Srutayus » 25 May 2020 07:51

Sadly - its more and more obvious what a huge gap there is between those pushing for a strong, self-reliant India and those content with imports, apron-strings. Some have given up with regards to desi-gear and will continue to do so, till things improve to the point they cannot ignore the developments any longer. Let it be so. Bash on regardless is all I can say, without compromising on safety or quality. By all means have stringent trials, but bash on.


I completely agree.
But if I could make an observation - let us also remember that several people who are pushing for imports may be doing so because of short-sigehtedness, excessive focus on short term tactical gains etc. We should not get upset and automatically brand them, especially those who have served in the forces, as corrupt as has happened often in this forum.
That does not help our argument with them.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 25 May 2020 07:56

The first choice was naval panther for both CG and IN.
Naval Dhruvs is 5.8T, full 1.5 T heavier than naval panther at 4.3T.
CG finally settled for naval Dhruv and let it OPV hanger be designed for it as naval Dhruv beat others in RFP. If the thrust was on indigenous product there should not have been any RFP.
IN warships hangers are designed for 10 T class helicopter and therefore there is no problem for accommodation of naval Dhruv.
These are series of cry baby articles which are actually paid news by the import lobby.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby srin » 25 May 2020 08:56

sankum wrote:
Just take the present version of manual folding of main rotor and no tail folding so that the whole requirement is met for $1b instead of $3b NLUH Tender.


I'm trying to visualize how the manual folding of the main rotor work on the ship deck. After the chopper touches down, how would the sailors fold the main rotor, esp since it is likely to be protruding off the edge and over the water ?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 25 May 2020 09:03

Both CG and IN have taken 32 nos naval Dhruv manual main rotor folding version. If it is not possible to fold at sea why would they take it.

The 111 nos NUH tender is for manual folding.

To fold 4 blades of LUH takes 10 minutes.
To fold just two blades should take 5 minutes.

If IN wants they can have the automatic main rotor fold option. Sufficient payload margin is there. HAL is offering it.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 25 May 2020 09:09

Dhruv production line of 24/year will be idle after 2022. Can be used to rapidly fullfill NUH at lower cost.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby deejay » 25 May 2020 10:47

sankum wrote:Both CG and IN have taken 32 nos naval Dhruv manual main rotor folding version. If it is not possible to fold at sea why would they take it.

The 111 nos NUH tender is for manual folding.

To fold 4 blades of LUH takes 10 minutes.
To fold just two blades should take 5 minutes.

If IN wants they can have the automatic main rotor fold option. Sufficient payload margin is there. HAL is offering it.


Personally, I think HAL can develop auto folding rotors and that is what the Navy wants. I don't claim to understand the reasons but they are the domain experts and I am sure they have given it adequate thought. HAL should tell Navy it will have auto folding rotors and then I don't think IN can refuse.

Auto folding isn't easy but I am sure HAL can do it. Their Rotary Wing division has thrown up great results.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby abhik » 25 May 2020 13:34

How many light helicopters does the IN need? The tender is for more more helicopters than their entire fleet (and 3+ times the number of light helos in inventory) - any ideas on how these are actually going to be deployed?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Bala Vignesh » 27 May 2020 16:55

RaghuK,
Is the front facing blade manually foldable to the rear, in the automatic blade folding system that was demonstrated in AI'19?? Along with the rest of the rotors??
Last edited by Bala Vignesh on 28 May 2020 02:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 27 May 2020 17:40

https://www.picxy.com/photo/300417

Rudra helicopter has auxillary fuel tank as standard fit increasing range to 700km and endurance to 4 hours.
I think 20 minutes reserve is also there. I vaguely remember the auxillary fuel tank capacity at 300 kg. Can't find accurate data.
Quite possible naval Dhruv also have it.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shaun » 27 May 2020 21:35

Bala Vignesh wrote:RaghuK,
Is the front facing blade manually foldable to the rear?? Along with the rest of the rotors??


yes

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shaun » 27 May 2020 21:49

sankum wrote:https://www.picxy.com/photo/300417

Rudra helicopter has auxillary fuel tank as standard fit increasing range to 700km and endurance to 4 hours.
I think 20 minutes reserve is also there. I vaguely remember the auxillary fuel tank capacity at 300 kg. Can't find accurate data.
Quite possible naval Dhruv also have it.


250 Ltrs capacity

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby raghuk » 27 May 2020 22:07

deejay wrote:
sankum wrote:Both CG and IN have taken 32 nos naval Dhruv manual main rotor folding version. If it is not possible to fold at sea why would they take it.

The 111 nos NUH tender is for manual folding.

To fold 4 blades of LUH takes 10 minutes.
To fold just two blades should take 5 minutes.

If IN wants they can have the automatic main rotor fold option. Sufficient payload margin is there. HAL is offering it.


Personally, I think HAL can develop auto folding rotors and that is what the Navy wants. I don't claim to understand the reasons but they are the domain experts and I am sure they have given it adequate thought. HAL should tell Navy it will have auto folding rotors and then I don't think IN can refuse.

Auto folding isn't easy but I am sure HAL can do it. Their Rotary Wing division has thrown up great results.

Automatic blade folding in the ALH is an unnecessary complexity. None of the helicopters in its class have it or need it. The primary issue is with the time taken to fold, the folding procedure and the folded dimensions. These have been addressed with the folding tail boom scheme demonstrated during AI2019. The Dhruv may not be the best Naval helicopter (primarily due to the inherent design features) but the issues are not insurmountable. Also, there is a program underway to redesign the rotor on the lines of the LUH which has a 2 segment blade.

Customization isn't an issue but we need to keep in mind that it takes time and support to mature a capability. Hari Nair Sir will be able to tell you about the effort and support that was needed to bring the Dhruv to where it is today. If the air force and the army were as adamant about every minute detail from the very first day, we as RWRDC wouldn't be where we are now.

These are just my opinions as an enthusiast like most others here and have nothing to do with my organization or it's views.

Cheers!

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 27 May 2020 22:40

Thanks Raghuk. Good to know about segmented main rotor blade. Seaking has manual tail folding.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby deejay » 28 May 2020 15:49

raghuk wrote:
deejay wrote:
Personally, I think HAL can develop auto folding rotors and that is what the Navy wants. I don't claim to understand the reasons but they are the domain experts and I am sure they have given it adequate thought. HAL should tell Navy it will have auto folding rotors and then I don't think IN can refuse.

Auto folding isn't easy but I am sure HAL can do it. Their Rotary Wing division has thrown up great results.

Automatic blade folding in the ALH is an unnecessary complexity. None of the helicopters in its class have it or need it. The primary issue is with the time taken to fold, the folding procedure and the folded dimensions. These have been addressed with the folding tail boom scheme demonstrated during AI2019. The Dhruv may not be the best Naval helicopter (primarily due to the inherent design features) but the issues are not insurmountable. Also, there is a program underway to redesign the rotor on the lines of the LUH which has a 2 segment blade.

Customization isn't an issue but we need to keep in mind that it takes time and support to mature a capability. Hari Nair Sir will be able to tell you about the effort and support that was needed to bring the Dhruv to where it is today. If the air force and the army were as adamant about every minute detail from the very first day, we as RWRDC wouldn't be where we are now.

These are just my opinions as an enthusiast like most others here and have nothing to do with my organization or it's views.

Cheers!


Thank you for your views. I fully understand. As someone who has a little understanding of ship deck ops I would not comment why IN is insistent.

I have a query on a different aspect though and I ask because my usual goto places for queries of this sort do not feature any answers on the ALH (any version).

The specs of the ALH mentions 3.5 Hrs endurance with 1100Kgs of fuel. This is at sea level and approx 25 deg C ambient temperature? If you could confirm these for me.

Also (for your information only and possible internal discussions at HAL) I have had a renewed discussion with one of my clients who showed interest for ALH civil versions. Some questions the client asked for supporting ALH Civil Ops:
- HAL has any plans for Power by Hour kind of plans for a) Engines b) Airframe and Avionics
- Authorisation of maintenance agencies outside of HAL
- Spare support programs for quick procurement of various consumable part nos at least

I was of course not the right person to answer these and I recommended he approach HAL. If HAL already has such plans and programs I would strongly recommend advertising those. Please do something about your website. If you want to know what I mean, look at other OEMS like Bell, Leonardo, Airbus and the way they present their products and Brand. HAL is a brand. It is one of the larger helicopter OEMs in the world. Please take your place on the table.

Sorry, for these uninvited feedback. Just wanted to share with someone at HAL.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby chola » 28 May 2020 16:05

This is the Dauphin, probably the most used shipborne helo in the world from the US CG to the French navy to the PLAN. It is in the same class as the Dhruv.

And it is manual folding. I do not see why you need to automate this process and add extra weight and maintenance:

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby SidSoma » 28 May 2020 16:37

chola wrote:This is the Dauphin, probably the most used shipborne helo in the world from the US CG to the French navy to the PLAN. It is in the same class as the Dhruv.

And it is manual folding. I do not see why you need to automate this process and add extra weight and maintenance:


Cholaji, I read a tweet from an old sailor who was saying that this manual operation with rough sea is extremely dangerous for the sailors and hence it is very important to get helis with auto folding.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby chola » 28 May 2020 17:04

SidSoma wrote:
chola wrote:This is the Dauphin, probably the most used shipborne helo in the world from the US CG to the French navy to the PLAN. It is in the same class as the Dhruv.

And it is manual folding. I do not see why you need to automate this process and add extra weight and maintenance:


Cholaji, I read a tweet from an old sailor who was saying that this manual operation with rough sea is extremely dangerous for the sailors and hence it is very important to get helis with auto folding.


Okay Sidji, I don't want to sound like I know better but wouldn't the US CG and many European navies in the northern hemisphere that operate the Dauphin deal with very heavy seas?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby SidSoma » 28 May 2020 18:41


Okay Sidji, I don't want to sound like I know better but wouldn't the US CG and many European navies in the northern hemisphere that operate the Dauphin deal with very heavy seas?


All I can do is Shrug sholders :shock:

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JayS » 28 May 2020 21:58

HAL OFFERS NEW SOLUTION FOR NAVAL ALH BLADE FOLDING.

https://kaypius.com/2020/05/28/hal-offe ... e-folding/

Image

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 28 May 2020 22:18

Good now the naval Dhruv will be NLUH tender complaint. Two year waiting time to prove the modification.
The tail boom folding would have reduced the folded height from 5.1m to less than 4m and folded length to 11.5m. Now not required to reduce complexity.
The article says in 2009 further orders for ALH were curtailed due to folding issue while Ajay Shukla in his 2008 article said it was because IN wanted a 3T class and 10 T class helicopters.
It had no place for 5.5T Dhruv as it falls between two stools
If IN had accepted a 5.5 T class the modification would have been implemented by now.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JayS » 01 Jun 2020 00:42

I'll just leave this here for reference
https://twitter.com/realkaypius/status/ ... 6900393984
For the Nth time, auto blade folding was NEVER incl, either in 1985 ALH specs or the latest NUH NSQRs. Of all heptrs Indian Navy ever held, only Seaking variants have auto blade folding. Kamovs & Alouettes have best manual procedure. First get the facts right, then tweet opinion.


https://twitter.com/realkaypius/status/ ... 3867239429
It's not a requirement for NUH. It was never a requirement for ALH. Hope this tweet settles it. Perhaps, AVM Bahadur was referring to NMRH.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby MeshaVishwas » 04 Jun 2020 04:11

IAF indigenising Russian night vision goggles for use in helicopters
https://m.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/ ... ters-93917

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby basant » 05 Jun 2020 15:50

Tweet from @Amitraaz. See the link for video.

Amiet R. Kashyap
@Amitraaz Here are some visuals from HAL LCH's Weapon and Performance evaluation trials in LEH.
#LCH
@HALHQBLR

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby basant » 05 Jun 2020 15:53

And LUH at Leh!

Maverick @Maverick_bharat
HAL Light utility helicopter in Himalayas

Image

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby basant » 11 Jun 2020 23:44

On the subject of ALH and all that is going on right now, it would be great to have feedback on the current state of affairs too. If Hair Nair sir or others with relevant knowledge share their experience, it would be wonderful.


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