India Border Watch: Security and Operations

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chola
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby chola » 27 May 2020 15:03

Mort Walker wrote:
chola wrote:A foregone conclusion unless we wait and sit around on our arses until the PLA builds up numbers.


The PLA has 5 armies in its Western Theater of Operations. Each army is corps sized with at least 30K in each.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... _Force.png


The Western Theater of operation is the size of India. The vast bulk of the force in the Western command is literally a world away.

I posted this before:
https://jamestown.org/program/snapshot-chinas-western-theater-command/

The chini Western Command is a massive theater. Most of its troops are in places where they can breath and those are outside Tibet.

You can check how many front line units are in Tibet next to India. There are only three brigades shown here -- 2) 52nd, 53rd Mountain, 3) 54th Mechanized:
Image

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby RajaRudra » 27 May 2020 15:04

Mort Walker wrote:
chola wrote:A foregone conclusion unless we wait and sit around on our arses until the PLA builds up numbers.


The PLA has 5 armies in its Western Theater of Operations. Each army is corps sized with at least 30K in each.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... _Force.png


That numbers and the will to deploy that numbers will only increase once they somehow gone through the period of Hong Kong and COVID backlash. Its better to meet them now than when they fully free to concentrate on one(LAC) issue. Even with Rafael and S400 arrivals, we will not be more advantageous than now, considering the Chinese will also be using that period to increase exponentially their weaponry with more locally made weapons(may not be top notch, but in good numbers).

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Mort Walker » 27 May 2020 15:10

^^^The Rafale and S400 are both vaporware even by Sep/Oct 2020. The need for several hundred Dhanush, Brahmos and ten squadron of LCA Tejas are needed yesterday.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Ashokk » 27 May 2020 15:11

Situation at India border 'overall stable and controllable': China
BEIJING: China on Wednesday said that the situation at the border with India is "overall stable and controllable," and both the countries have proper mechanisms and communication channels to resolve the issues through a dialogue and consultation.

"We have been following the important consensus reached by the two leaders and strictly observing the agreements between the two countries," he said, apparently referring to the directions of Chinese President Xi Jinping and Prime Minister Narendra Modi after their two informal summits, asking the militaries of the two countries to take more confidence building measures to maintain peace and tranquillity along the borders.
The foreign ministry's remarks came a day after President Xi ordered the military to scale up the battle preparedness, visualising the worst-case scenarios and asked it to resolutely defend the country's sovereignty.
Zhao said: "We are committed to safeguarding our territorial sovereignty and security, and safeguarding peace and stability in the border areas. Now the China-India border area situation is overall stable and controllable".
"Between the two countries, we have good border related mechanism and communication channels. We are capable of resolving the issues properly though dialogue and consultation," he said, confirming reports that the diplomatic efforts were on to ease the border tensions.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby chetak » 27 May 2020 15:17

Mort Walker wrote:
Yagnasri wrote:
We are forgetting the same Indian army given sound thrashing to same China in 1967. Our people are trained well, being led well and have tools and geographical advantage to withstand any Chinese invasion and China knows this. True that we could have done much better in terms of equipment, but I do not agree that we will lose to China so easily.


In 1967, India did not gain any territory north of Sikkim in Tibet to make up for territory lost in 1962. In 2-3 weeks of a conflict, the IA and IAF will hold its own, after that the Chinese have an advantage. The 1962 war lasted a month and 1967 conflict was about a week. Without significant manufacturing base within India of weapon systems, India has a distinct disadvantage.


except for bullying taiwan, and once in a while, ramming the odd fishing vessel here and there, china will not initiate war against anyone who is capable of giving it a bloody nose. It will be a huge loss of face for them.

Neverwho and his demented and deluded "not a blade of grass grows there" theories have all been forcibly thrown into the dustbin of history. Territorial integrity is paramount in every countries' agenda.

Despite the many posters talking about the lack of a significant manufacturing base within India for weapon systems, there are some plus points to importing weapons. It has given India a very considerable diplomatic reach and assured access to countries and political personalities that otherwise would not have looked at us twice.

Again, India possessing these varied imported weapon systems, successfully integrating then into its fighting forces and in the market for more systems has made countries like the US take a hard relook at their traditional partners in the region like the pakis.

france and israel are purely market driven with ideology nowhere in sight. These two will stand by India. So will russia and maybe amerika. So our security council veto power is assured.

In this region and in these very troubled times, India's democracy, political stability, management of the economy, the maturity of its politico economic leadership, its large middle class and even larger markets makes her a country very hard to ignore.

the rest of the world is waiting to teach the hans a long overdue lesson and those lessons will only be in economic terms.

Win, lose, or draw, the hans will be decimated in the global markets.

The amerikis have already spiked huawei globally by banning the exports of crucial semiconductors to the hans. Huawei's India contract chances have evaporated completely.

xi has no good news waiting for him. Even the COVID blowback has hit him very significantly.

xi will not opt for war because his enemies in the party have already dug his grave and are waiting for him to make a mistake.
Last edited by chetak on 27 May 2020 15:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby nam » 27 May 2020 15:18

nam wrote:Chinis are moving troops in to Tibet & Xinjang using civilian flights. Their Western HQ is in motion.

https://twitter.com/ThunderboltIND/status/1265543217468096512


A320 & 737 has 178 & 210 seats. average to 200, 150 flights will bring in 30K troops.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby khan » 27 May 2020 15:21

nam wrote:
nam wrote:Chinis are moving troops in to Tibet & Xinjang using civilian flights. Their Western HQ is in motion.

https://twitter.com/ThunderboltIND/status/1265543217468096512


A320 & 737 has 178 & 210 seats. average to 200, 150 flights will bring in 30K troops.

I don’t think it’s that simple. These troops will need a logistics tail, kit, artillery and so on.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Larry Walker » 27 May 2020 15:40

Why do we always assume that Chinese are amassing to invade, it can be that they are building up just to give some confidence to their own officers and army that it's not just 3 brigades that are left on their own fate to face down India ?? Imagine the situation that for some bravado some Chinese troops transgress and in response India shows its buildup which is at present atleast 5X of the Chinese, then will this not cause panic in Chinese ranks ?? If just left to their own fate - can these 3 brigades take on current Indian forces even for 1 day ?? How do we know that it is not the Chinese who are panicking right now ?? We don't even know what manoeuvres is India undertaking right now - we just have some gaddar journalists hyperventilating about gazzilion Chinks walking towards Delhi.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby RajaRudra » 27 May 2020 15:53

Mort Walker wrote:^^^The Rafale and S400 are both vaporware even by Sep/Oct 2020. The need for several hundred Dhanush, Brahmos and ten squadron of LCA Tejas are needed yesterday.


Even with Danush, Brahmos and any number of Tejas, its of no use if our core strategy is mainly defending the un demarcated LCA always. The only way to some how streamline LAC is to make the china realize the WILL(and ability) to take on them in Tibet. The only way we can make china realize is cross LAC targeting of their infra and opening up several fronts across LAC and stopping little short of war.

Note : - Viveks China War Story written in this 2012 seems to be getting real,

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby nam » 27 May 2020 15:54

khan wrote:
nam wrote:
A320 & 737 has 178 & 210 seats. average to 200, 150 flights will bring in 30K troops.

I don’t think it’s that simple. These troops will need a logistics tail, kit, artillery and so on.


That would be trains and next lot. The troops are coming in first, so they can learn to breath.

Would be interesting to see satellite images of Lhasa and Hotan airports.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby darshan » 27 May 2020 16:11

Has GoI upped the hiring? Due to the Wuhan virus, lot of resources were diverted to start making alternative stuff. Or will GoI rely on imports for many logistical items?

Better to hire and train now from known NIT references to minimize security risk of insider threat.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby AakashVeer » 27 May 2020 17:19

Chinese suffer from long logistic tail. Inducting 30K troops on commercial Aircrafts require at least 250-300 sorties. It how will they maintain them?
And these 30K will face Indian Army from Laddakh//Himachal/Uttrakhand and J&K.
Please check the ORBAT for Indian Numbers there.
And do not forget Chakrata

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Manish_Sharma » 27 May 2020 17:54

^They've train straight from mainland to Northern Arunachal Pradesh.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Bharadwaj » 27 May 2020 18:08

US willing to mediate India-China border standoff, tweets Donald Trump

http://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/in ... 2020-05-27

The United States is "willing and able" to "mediate" between India and China, US President Donald Trump said in a tweet on Wednesday. In his tweet, Donald Trump referred to a "raging border dispute" that he said the US was willing to help resolve.


I am all for the strategic partnership but this mediating business shows there is no anti-China driving force in the Indo-US relationship. We can now be quite sure there will be no US help (we don't need it) in case of a conflict.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby mody » 27 May 2020 18:29

Some news channels reporting some softening of China's language on the LAC standoff.

Also, Nepal as put on the constitutional amendment about the new maps. KP Oli not able to muster enough support.

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/ne ... r-BB14ESdP

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby RajaRudra » 27 May 2020 18:34

mody wrote:Some news channels reporting some softening of China's language on the LAC standoff.

Also, Nepal as put on the constitutional amendment about the new maps. KP Oli not able to muster enough support.

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/ne ... r-BB14ESdP


Social media is considering a deescalation almost a victory. But some how i am not getting satisfied..There should be some price for upping the ante in LAC. If no cost given, then this escalation/deescalation will be employed whenever needed to put pressure in the future.

https://twitter.com/nitingokhale/status ... 57345?s=20

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby YashG » 27 May 2020 18:44

Roop wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:Further, after the opposition in the US comes in power, they will sanction India severely taking sides with China and Pakistan.


You are only partly right: the Dems are a bunch of Commie-loving scumbags, but they are not going to win the Presidency in 2020. God knows what will happen in 2024.


You've zero Idea about how republicans/democrats function in US. Right now from republicans to democrats and even 65% of US public have unfavorable views of China. Democrats (Biden included) are attacking China. Even US house (Nancy Pelosi) has attacked China. No voters or politicians have any soft corner left for China anymore in US.

You know US Senat has with "unanimous consent" passed two anti-china bills in last 10 days. You know how rarely that happens? Study recent senate bills and you'd know.

You're living in a dreamworld. No one will take sides with China anytime soon.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ldev » 27 May 2020 18:45

RajaRudra wrote:
Social media is considering a deescalation almost a victory. But some how i am not getting satisfied..There should be some price for upping the ante in LAC. If no cost given, then this escalation/deescalation will be employed whenever needed to put pressure in the future.

https://twitter.com/nitingokhale/status ... 57345?s=20


Very true. Have Chinese troops pulled back to positions they were on as of early April? If not this "softening" story is just spin.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ldev » 27 May 2020 18:51

RajaRudra wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:^^^The Rafale and S400 are both vaporware even by Sep/Oct 2020. The need for several hundred Dhanush, Brahmos and ten squadron of LCA Tejas are needed yesterday.


Even with Danush, Brahmos and any number of Tejas, its of no use if our core strategy is mainly defending the un demarcated LCA always. The only way to some how streamline LAC is to make the china realize the WILL(and ability) to take on them in Tibet. The only way we can make china realize is cross LAC targeting of their infra and opening up several fronts across LAC and stopping little short of war.

Note : - Viveks China War Story written in this 2012 seems to be getting real,


This requires a change in the mindset of the political and military leadership in India which even the present GOI lacks IMO. Besides it calls for a revolution in Indian military thinking and strategy and equipment from the current viewpoint of the confrontation at the border being one of "holding the line" against a Chinese threat to various lines of communication in India whether they are BRO supply roads or the chicken neck Siliguri corridor to one where India makes military moves into Tibet that will have repercussions for the CCP leadership just like Taiwan. In other words the price for salami slicing on the Tibet India border has to have repercussions for the Chinese leadership far beyond the immediate border issue. That will be deterrence that will settle the border issue. Otherwise it will remain a festering sore for ever. China is in no hurry to settle this now. They believe that time is on their side as their economic and military strength grows relative to the rest of the world. India has to disabuse them of this notion.
Last edited by ldev on 27 May 2020 18:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby nam » 27 May 2020 18:51

Bharadwaj wrote:US willing to mediate India-China border standoff, tweets Donald Trump


:rotfl: As i expected

nam wrote:Our man has now increased the Chini force level to 10K. The goras are now very "concerned".

Looks like someone has been reading my suggestion to add masala and increase the count to 10K :rotfl:

Now our media will make more noise and hope the US ambassador in Delhi is watching the news. Few words from Trump about evil commies attacking "the free world" countries would spice up things.


The Chinis tried to keep things under cover to extract concession from us. Our loud mouth jokers in media helped to take it to the man himself. :rotfl:

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby darshan » 27 May 2020 18:57

YashG wrote:You've zero Ideaabout how republicans/democrats function in US. Right now from republicans to democrats and even 65% of US public have unfavorable views of China. Democrats (Biden included ) are attacking China. Even US house (Nancy Pelosi) has attacked China. No voters or politicians have any soft corner left for China anymore in US.

Not so fast. G2 theory isn't dead yet. Neither preference of Asians over darker skinned Indian. However, this isn't the thread for this.

US by using the words mediation has made it plenty clear that they aren't serious yet.

As for the sentiment, I have a test and so far it's failing. The simple test of I continue to call it Chinese and Wuhan virus. And, I work in the industry that's as conservative white as one can get. So far I don't see any worthwhile anti Chinese feelings. I'm hoping that it's saved for the election time.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Vips » 27 May 2020 19:04

Yagnasri wrote:If there is a two-front war on India I do not expect US to keep quiet. Plus we gamed this quite well and even the recent IAF exercises aimed at testing preparedness etc of a two-front war. In fact, we are talking about a two and half front war with serious internal backstabbing activities.


If there is a two front war US will take advantage of the situation, move the Sixth Fleet and will free Balochistan in a couple of days. This will end the chinese dream of having a road route through the gulf to europe, checkmate any chinese access to or plans to control shipping routes in the Gulf in partnership with Iran, have a ready and permanent base in a crucial strategic location to forever box in Bakistan/needle Iran and have a route to Afghanistan without being dependent on Pakistan.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Manish_Sharma » 27 May 2020 19:51

TWITTER
DrApr007

Don't fall in trap.They have been surprised to see the deployment of the Indian Army in such a short time. The correct sentence is that they are really nervous from IA's quick response. They did not even imagine such a response by Indian Armed Forces & Indian Government. #LAC

https://twitter.com/drapr007/status/126 ... 75553?s=19
___________________

We r aware of ur plans.
On the one hand,Chinese diplomats r talking about resolving all the issues diplomatically & other hand, movement of Chinese troops continues in Ladakh today. Atleast 1000 additional Chinese troops have been deployed in 3 different areas in the last 24 hrs.
https://twitter.com/drapr007/status/126 ... 60067?s=19
Last edited by Manish_Sharma on 27 May 2020 20:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby manjgu » 27 May 2020 20:06

ldev wrote:This requires a change in the mindset of the political and military leadership in India which even the present GOI lacks IMO. Besides it calls for a revolution in Indian military thinking and strategy and equipment from the current viewpoint of the confrontation at the border being one of "holding the line" against a Chinese threat to various lines of communication in India whether they are BRO supply roads or the chicken neck Siliguri corridor to one where India makes military moves into Tibet that will have repercussions for the CCP leadership just like Taiwan. In other words the price for salami slicing on the Tibet India border has to have repercussions for the Chinese leadership far beyond the immediate border issue. That will be deterrence that will settle the border issue. Otherwise it will remain a festering sore for ever. China is in no hurry to settle this now. They believe that time is on their side as their economic and military strength grows relative to the rest of the world. India has to disabuse them of this notion.

I have been travelling to Ladhak every year since last 12 yrs and have stayed for some length of time in almost all ladhaki village alongside Pak china border incl ..from turtuk to panamik... shyok village, phobrang, man, merak , chushul . The infra on the indian side has improved vvvv much over the years..tangste otw pangong used to be a little army camp when i was first in ladhak...now its grown into a hugeeeeee camp with tanks etc. actually time is on indias side as we play catch up in terms of infra, modernisation. and this is what has rattled the chinkis... chinis can only do so much to improve their infra... we are catching up with them... the rapid deployment has not only been noted by chinkis but also Napakis. once roads, bunkers are built along the contact line the claims get solidified. India claiming Gilgit baltistan and thereby threatening chinki CEPC could also be one of the reasons for chinki desperation. neither side is sure of a swift victory and that is what is keeping the peace...

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Y I Patel » 27 May 2020 20:25

Deans wrote:
CalvinH wrote:Equipment aside IA should start acclimatizing large number of soldiers at some other place with same altitude for large scale lift and shift.

Apart from 3rd Infantry division at Leh, we have 8 Mountain division at Dras and 17 Mountain handling North Sikkim, both of which are at altitudes above 10,000 Ft and can be fairly quickly moved as they are in quieter sectors and can in turn be reinforced by mountain divisions in the plains.
Its more important to permanently station more artillery and mechanised forces there.

IIRC during the ongoing IA reorganization into IBGs, one infantry division from 9 corps has been dual tasked to central sector (I.e. HP and U.K.). 6 infantry division has been triple tasked including to China border for a long time now. Other strike corps infantry or RAPIDS divisions might also be freed up if decision is taken to not go on offensive against Pak.

Check Rohit Vats posts and blogs for more details

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby nam » 27 May 2020 20:40

Once our infra has been build along the LAC in the nest 3 years, we will ALWAYS be a threat to Tibet. Even after the LAC is resolved.

Would the Chinese PLA take a risk to have the world's largest army, with good infra,shorter line of communication than self, right in it's rear?

Of course not. So they are desperate to get our infra build stopped. They know the second Cold War is coming and they know very well whose side India will be.

And they have to spend tremendous resource & men, to defend the place, where nobody lives and there is nothing in there. It is difficult to go Tibet, but it is easier to go downhill from Tibet to East of China!

They have 3 years before the roads are completed. There is a sea in SCS, but there is no sea between Tibet and Hanland.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby nam » 27 May 2020 20:43

Hope we get our act together in artillery numbers, longer range AAM, SAMs, AWACS, ECM & anti-Sub tech, These are the critical tech which drives the result of the war.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Ashokk » 27 May 2020 21:15

VatsRohit
@KesariDhwaj
-Summary of Indian Army in Eastern Ladakh.
- 150+ tanks, 100+ BMP-2, 20,000+ troops, Artillery guns
- For brigades mentioned on the map, their attendant infantry battalions will be deployed up-front.
- All flash points covered.
- Additional reserves available at short-notice


Good analysis on twitter from RohitVats

Image
Last edited by Ashokk on 27 May 2020 21:32, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby pushkar.bhat » 27 May 2020 21:27

Lets also not forget the RR's. At the cost of temp disruption to the CI Grid (with BSF and CRPF supplementing the grid). We can pivot at least 100k of the 140k battle-hardened troops into the area. This is the Chinese military planner's worst nightmare.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby bkswarti » 27 May 2020 21:33

The same people who think India will easily win this war against China are the same people gullible enough to believe that Modi has a 56 inch chest.

Sure, India 2020 is not India 1962 but China 2020 is also not China 1962. Clearly we have lagged behind the Chinese on military spending and modernization for quite some time. Wars can’t be won by sheer will or bravado; it takes a lot of investment into our defence.

To anyone who thinks Pakistan won’t take advantage of this is living on another planet. Even if Pakistan decides to do nothing, we still can’t move any of our troops posted along the LOC.

Lastly, to everyone thinking the US will swoop in to help out India is also living in another world; no country will come out to help us; it will only be lip service along with some even weaker economic sanctions. If you think anyone will send their weapons or troops en masse is living in some fantasy world.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby RajaRudra » 27 May 2020 22:00

bkswarti wrote:The same people who think India will easily win this war against China are the same people gullible enough to believe that Modi has a 56 inch chest.

.


There are two possibilities with regard to what china is doing now.
a) They are doing the deescalation thing as a fog to bring in more acclimatized men and supplies to do further ingress and occupy territory.
b) They really meant peace due to having multiple fronts already (like COVID backlash, HK etc)

There is no official statement from Indian government. What ever de escalation message came is from Chinese Amb.
If the possibility of Choice A is less, then we should use this opportunity to move LOC at various points for our advantage now, because chines coming to the rescue of Pakistan is less.

Its a once in life time opportunity to gain something tangible. If not in LAC, then at least in LOC. Pakistan may not even reveal it in public if we accomplice this quickly without any fanfare.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Raveen » 27 May 2020 22:16

bkswarti wrote:The same people who think India will easily win this war against China are the same people gullible enough to believe that Modi has a 56 inch chest.
.



I would refrain from offtopic and unnecessary political commentary here - BJP has done a lot for the forces over the last couple of administrations none of that paisa nahin hai for planes rona dhona but Eurocopter VVIP kickback ke liye hai.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby manjgu » 27 May 2020 22:38

1) i dont think anyone has said India will easily win this war against china... none of the two opposing parties is sure !!! this standoff will continue till the onset of winters...when weather will give a face saving way out to both sides. till then thoda bahut blow hot blow cold will continue. 2) there is no fog to bring in more troops etc. these things cant be hidden these days. mountains anyway restrict what u can bring into ... when both sides dig in ..not much either side can do.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Sravan » 27 May 2020 22:40

:roll:
Mort Walker wrote:^^^Nope. India will be seen as the aggressor. PLA will move significant men and material into Tibet and destroy Indian positions and infrastructure, then pull back. India will be unable to launch any counter offensive.


What’s wrong with being seen as Aggressive? No one is punishing or rewarding us for good behavior.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby bkswarti » 27 May 2020 22:45

Raveen wrote:
bkswarti wrote:The same people who think India will easily win this war against China are the same people gullible enough to believe that Modi has a 56 inch chest.

I would refrain from offtopic and unnecessary political commentary here - BJP has done a lot for the forces over the last couple of administrations none of that paisa nahin hai for planes rona dhona but Eurocopter VVIP kickback ke liye hai.


Funny how you say to refrain from off topic and unnecessary political commentary here and then provide your off topic and unnecessary political commentary.

Going back to topic; currently, although de escalation is clearly the best way forward; our armed forces should be prepared for a conflict and start rapidly modernizing and put in place plans for local manufacturing if they haven’t already.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Sanju » 27 May 2020 22:48

I don't understand the rona-dhona and dhothi shivering by some posters.

The Indian Army is a battle hardened army sitting on heights.

If a larger MIC granted a victory, there ae some examples quoted by Yagnasri ji which quells that assumption.

It is an insult to the Indian Armed forces when folks write that we will be running to the US for help. Either shows a total lack of understanding of ground realities or doesn't anything about mountain warfare or as Chola ji pointed about PRC's soft underbelly - Straits of Malacca.

This is not going to be a war only in the high Himalayas, its going to be Economics with Chinese goods having no access to the vast Indian Market, Sea Lane disruption for the Chinese and post-COVID19 love from the rest of the world for the CCP.

Chetak saars posts have been outstanding.

Sravan
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Sravan » 27 May 2020 22:51

bkswarti wrote:
Raveen wrote:I would refrain from offtopic and unnecessary political commentary here - BJP has done a lot for the forces over the last couple of administrations none of that paisa nahin hai for planes rona dhona but Eurocopter VVIP kickback ke liye hai.


Funny how you say to refrain from off topic and unnecessary political commentary here and then provide your off topic and unnecessary political commentary.

Going back to topic; currently, although de escalation is clearly the best way forward; our armed forces should be prepared for a conflict and start rapidly modernizing and put in place plans for local manufacturing if they haven’t already.


I disagree. There is no punishment for escalating border issue. We need to establish new ground rules by taking and holding territory and if need be fire some shots. China doesn’t care as much about the Tibetan border. 95% of their civilization is concentrated on the Eastern border. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain by pushing us. We have nothing to gain by pushing back and everything to lose by staying back. What this means is that we need to change the theater of war to level the threat assessment. So we should make them pay a price. I vote we build an artificial island in their backyard and maintain a troop presence on their eastern seaboard side.

In addition, officially recognize Taiwan as a country and actively support Tibet’s exiled government Initiatives.

madhu
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby madhu » 27 May 2020 23:06

Guys, can some one let me know what is the reason for this sudden aggressive nature of PLA. lets say if it 8s to divert the attention from COVID, what if things slip out and war starts. Is it not a loss for china? At the time when whole world is against country, industry looking for exit would you not think that the industry exit will simply accelerated as no industry would like to work in the world where uncertainty, secrecy are there.

yensoy
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby yensoy » 27 May 2020 23:13

Are we done with the various crackpot theories and proposals now?

Ok the fact is that Tibet and Xinjiang are the last things in most Han Chinese peoples minds. It is beyond the beyond, much like how we "mainland" non-fauji Indians didn't think of or didn't think much of the north-east till the whole economy in our cities started pivoting around the hard-working migrant labour from those far off states. Tibet and Xinjiang's remoteness is probably 10 times as that, and literally the Han people view the other races in a very dim manner, not even giving them their rightful place in history or dignity as workers.

However, if we were to capture any currently Chinese held territory in Tibet, you can be assured that the Chinese will launch an all-out attack to recover said territories. Unless we have a really fool-proof way to hold on to it, and unless we can ensure that they cannot or will not retaliate elsewhere, and unless we have some moral justification (our intervention to halt a local pogrom of Tibetans would be a good story in the global opinion), we cannot and should not attempt such an action because it may backfire.

The reason they will react is very simple, loss of face. I recall but unable to find any online link that any Chinese leader who loses territory faces the death penalty. Regardless of the legal status, dear leader's internal enemies will be ready with an empty grave if he falters. Don't forget that UK fought to keep a bunch of frozen islands thousands of miles away from London and of very little economic value to them.

Likewise the Chinese also know that we will defend our territory to the hilt at this juncture and are ready to throw the book at them if they ingress and hold on to what is clearly ours (clearly as in constructed and populated, not an area where we have been patrolling and they are leaving cigarette butts). Ours is an army that climbed mountains on the sheer face to surprise the entrenched enemy in Kargil, ours is the army that spends 365 days of the year on a glacier, and unless they want to sit in guard of their salami slices through the harsh Himalayan winter, we will be back next year with the piece of artillery that drives them bat crazy, our bulldozer.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Mort Walker » 27 May 2020 23:25

Sravan wrote::roll:
Mort Walker wrote:^^^Nope. India will be seen as the aggressor. PLA will move significant men and material into Tibet and destroy Indian positions and infrastructure, then pull back. India will be unable to launch any counter offensive.


What’s wrong with being seen as Aggressive? No one is punishing or rewarding us for good behavior.


You don't start a war you can't finish.


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