MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 22 May 2020 21:21

AbhishekG wrote:IMHO Indian government should....

Your username has been changed to remove the number from your name. If you like another username, please advise.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby VinodTK » 22 May 2020 22:38

Indian Air Force restructures $17 billion fighter jet program

NEW DELHI — The Indian Air Force is overhauling its plan to induct 114 medium-weight multirole fighters, with a senior service official saying the aircraft will be built in India with significant foreign technology transfer and no foreign procurement.

The effort will cost about $17 billion under the Make in India economic policy.

The Air Force official said the project is very much alive, but that the “final nitty-gritties have yet to be worked out, and that will take time because it will require manufacturing capability building in the country.”

Daljit Singh, a retired Indian Air Force air marshal and current defense analyst, agreed that India must move quickly to create the capability to manufacture high-tech systems at home.

“The main aim should be to extract the maximum [transfer of technology] from the OEM [original equipment manufacturer] and start manufacturing subcomponents through Indian companies," Singh said.

Finance Minister Nirmala Sitharaman announced Saturday that the government will create a separate budget for domestic procurement of weapons and equipment to help reduce the imports bill.

A Ministry of Defence official said a formal budget allocation of about $17 billion for the multirole fighters project will be granted sometime next year, and will be launched under the Strategic Partners procurement policy.

Under that policy, the multirole fighters will be manufactured by domestic private defense companies with one of the original equipment manufacturers approved by the government. The process for selecting contractors is yet to begin, but the MoD official said the businesses will be selected within three years.

No private defense company in India has made fighter jets before, but several have expressed interest in participating in the program, including Tata Advanced Systems, Adani Defence, Reliance Defence, Mahindra Defence and Bharat Forge Limited.

Reliance Defence has created a joint venture with France’s Dassault Aviation, which currently manufactures components for Rafale fighters.

Meanwhile, Tata Advanced Systems has teamed with Lockheed Martin, an American company that produces the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. Adani Defence has announced a teaming arrangement Sweden’s Saab AB, which makes the Gripen jet.

Another Indian Air Force official said a request for information was sent in June 2018 to foreign original equipment manufacturers for the multirole fighters. Among those who have responded to the RFI are: Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Dassault Aviation, Saab AB, Airbus Defence and Space, Russian Aircraft Corporation, and Sukhoi Company.

The Indian Air Force plans to induct all 114 multirole fighters within 12 years after the contract is awarded.

The official added that the RFI included the requirement for transfer of technology, including the transfer of design, development, manufacturing and repair expertise. It also included the requirement for the unilateral capability to integrate weapons, systems and sensors. The capability to upgrade the aircraft and a provision on exporting the aircraft is also part of the program. India is also seeking transfer of technology for stealth technology, active electronically scanned array radars, avionics, electronic warfare systems and engines.

“The advantage of making a fighter aircraft in India is that the customer can select the types of sensors, EW equipment, avionics and weapons, as per operational requirements. Subsequently, the customer is assured of full logistic and upgrade support without any restriction. However, it is important to embed most of these systems in the aircraft design itself to ensure low observability and systems compatibility,” he said.

However, Singh, the defense analyst, said any transfer of technology agreement would need to make business sense to the OEM. “Propriety Items could still be under the control of the OEM,” he said.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby TushS » 22 May 2020 22:48

VinodTK wrote:Indian Air Force restructures $17 billion fighter jet program

NEW DELHI — The Indian Air Force is overhauling its plan to induct 114 medium-weight multirole fighters, with a senior service official saying the aircraft will be built in India with significant foreign technology transfer and no foreign procurement.

The effort will cost about $17 billion under the Make in India economic policy.

The Air Force official said the project is very much alive, but that the “final nitty-gritties have yet to be worked out, and that will take time because it will require manufacturing capability building in the country.”



14 years of MRCA saga and still hanging on "final nitty gritties".! I have been following this deal since my graduation days, now I have a child. I don't want to become grand father by the time deal would be finalised. :evil:

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 22 May 2020 22:56

Rehashing of the interview from ACM Bhaduria Sir with some masala terms (i.e. nitty gritty) added to it.

Nothing new in the article. $17 billion and 12 years from contract signature to complete 114 phoren fighters.

Good Luck! :lol:

P.S. The MoD will go through the entire exercise (RFI --> RFQ ---> Trials ---> Downselect ----> Contract Negotiation).

And it will fail right at the contract negotiation stage when the MoD sees the cost. $17 billion is the starting price onlee! Then the MoD will do a small order of 36 birds and call it a day.

Then the IAF will launch a new contest - 100+ fifth generation MRFA competition. And the circus will continue.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby srin » 23 May 2020 00:00

It's sad that we are still hoping that TOT is going to accomplish something ....

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby VinodTK » 23 May 2020 01:19

Rakesh wrote::
P.S. The MoD will go through the entire exercise (RFI --> RFQ ---> Trials ---> Downselect ----> Contract Negotiation).

Then the IAF will launch a new contest - 100+ fifth generation MRFA competition. And the circus will continue.


I am wondering as to why foreign vendors why would they go through the above mentioned processes (it costs them money) when they know that a contract is not going to be signed!
Or are we missing something.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Indranil » 23 May 2020 02:46

Next time somebody asks you:
1. Is manufacturing MWF in 2028 okay? Tell them that IF MMRCA is to be signed in 2020, its production would conclude in 2032 and that is deemed as okay! If the Gripen in chosen, its certification wouldn't conclude by 2023. But that is okay too!
2. Is producing 16 aircrafts per year for an 83 aircraft order okay? Tell them 114 aircrafts over 12 years was deemed to be okay!

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby arvin » 23 May 2020 09:43

Rakesh wrote:Rehashing of the interview from ACM Bhaduria Sir with some masala terms (i.e. nitty gritty) added to it.

Nothing new in the article. $17 billion and 12 years from contract signature to complete 114 phoren fighters.

Good Luck! :lol:

P.S. The MoD will go through the entire exercise (RFI --> RFQ ---> Trials ---> Downselect ----> Contract Negotiation).


A section of babus in MOD and few in flying dont want the MRCA to be dead. Notice the eagerness with which Single engine fighter was announced after 36 rafale was announced. All those 74% FDI and technology absorption :oops: is all obfuscation (*Babu-fuscation) to push for imported maal. CDS had been clear about staggered purchase of big ticket items as when funds become available. So why this special provision for this tamasha.

*Babu-fuscation™©® - Babu + obfuscation. Use of sophisticated English by IAS afsars to push devious agenda.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby srai » 23 May 2020 10:04

...

Finance Minister Nirmala Sitharaman announced Saturday that the government will create a separate budget for domestic procurement of weapons and equipment to help reduce the imports bill.

A Ministry of Defence official said a formal budget allocation of about $17 billion for the multirole fighters project will be granted sometime next year, and will be launched under the Strategic Partners procurement policy.

...


Where are the contract signings for indigenous products? Why no budget allocations for LCA still? Why limit to 83 LCA (when much more quantities are required to fill in the numbers)?

Import costs are way too high to be affordable. All or nothing again! Wait till 2030 to find out, files still have not moved because nitty gritty are still being worked out :mrgreen:

I don’t get it.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ldev » 23 May 2020 10:58

Indranil wrote:2. Is producing 16 aircrafts per year for an 83 aircraft order okay? Tell them 114 aircrafts over 12 years was deemed to be okay!


HAL produced and the IAF accepted the SU30 contract for 140 Ozar built aircraft from 2004 to 2018 as per the original contract.

From Wiki
In October 2000, a memorandum of understanding (MoU) was signed for Indian licence-production of 140 Su-30MKIs; in December 2000, a deal was sealed at Russia's Irkutsk aircraft plant for full technology transfer. The first Nasik-built Su-30MKIs were to be delivered by 2004, with staggered production until 2017–18.


10 SU30s per year. And now they are prospectively looking at 10 MRCAs per year. It was then a Russian fighter, now the IAF is looking for a Western fighter. "Technology transfer" then from the Russians and "technology transfer" now from the West, whatever that may mean.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby srin » 23 May 2020 11:48

I question the need for Rafale class fighter.

To take on Crapistan which is quite shallow, a MWF/Mirage-2K class equipped with standoff weapons should be perfectly adequate for strike purposes. And for air-to-air, a Tejas with long range BVR should be perfectly adequate. Just get them in large numbers and have them in the air bases near the border. So, Tejas Mk1 should be good enough, but an MWF would be much better.

To take on the Chin, we also have enough. For offensive strikes and air-to-air, we have ~300 fighters that can take up the task (MKIs + Rafales). For defensive battles near the border, we can still have Tejas.

We now need to focus not on the airframes, but getting better and desi-made sensors, EW, standoff weapons (like SAAW), air-launched lighter-than-Brahmos cruise missiles (like Nirbhay) and BVR missiles - large quantities of them.

So, IMHO, getting larger numbers of Tejas can be a perfectly reasonable option than another MRCA circus, this time with Strategic partnership model.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Karan M » 23 May 2020 12:14

A MWF class fighter will take years to build, deliver.

Rafale is not being procured for Pak alone, but PRC as well.

Agree w/Tejas improvements.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Aditya_V » 23 May 2020 12:41

My only worry is behind the scenes are the Americans linking the GE engines to MRCA deal? How many Ge 404 In engines have been Delivered ? How many GE 414IN engines have been delivered ? I think its 40 for the 404 IN and 2 engines for 414 IN?

Quite frankly in the last 5-6 years a lot if news/ sources earlier has disappeared in the Public domain. For eg, before something like an ASAT, there used to be months and months of coverage, now thinks get done before we find out, similarly artillery deals, I think GOI has learnt to keep a lot more plans under wraps.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 23 May 2020 23:52

arvin wrote:A section of babus in MOD and few in flying dont want the MRCA to be dead. Notice the eagerness with which Single engine fighter was announced after 36 rafale was announced. All those 74% FDI and technology absorption :oops: is all obfuscation (*Babu-fuscation) to push for imported maal. CDS had been clear about staggered purchase of big ticket items as when funds become available. So why this special provision for this tamasha.

*Babu-fuscation™©® - Babu + obfuscation. Use of sophisticated English by IAS afsars to push devious agenda.

Think abut the timeframe and cost from the above article and see how feasible this contract is going to be.

1) Minimum Cost - $17 billion. The Govt will never pay this money up front. Neither will they be a formal budget allocation for this, despite what the article says. If they did not have the money for 126 aircraft at the conclusion of the first MMRCA contract (in 2013/14 when the contest was cancelled in favour of 36 Rafales), from where are they going to pull this money from now? Think of the CAPEX cuts that are going to happen for the next few years because of COVID.

Secondly, the new contest - 114 aircraft - does not exist in a vacuum and there are a host of other equally pressing projects also in the pipeline for the IAF. Then there are the Navy and the Army requirements. And that is just the defense ministry. All the other ministries in the Govt also require funding for their projects. Please remember, the money pot is finite. Every ministry requirement is being funded from that one money pot. Separate budgets for local defence maal can be created - as announced by Finance Minister Sitharaman - but remember it is all still coming from one source.

2) Timeframe - 12 years. Ever since this contest started in 2001, every Air Chief (from Krishnaswamy Sir in 2001 to Bhaduria Sir now) has been stating one thing ---> Squadron Shortage. The MMRCA/MRFA is required because the squadron strength is falling. How is 12 years going to address the squadron shortage? By 2032 (12 years from now) all the MiG-29UPGs (three units) and the Mirage 2000I/TIs (2.5 units) will be retired. I believe the Jaguar squadrons (5 units) are due for retirement by 2035. That is around 10+ units right there. The remaining BISON units are also due for retirement in this decade if I am not mistake. I am not sure on the exact number of BISON units, but I think it is around 8 units. The squadron strength right now stands at 28 - 30 units.

The 114 MRFA contest is in RFI stage and as per the above article, "...a formal budget allocation of about $17 billion for the multirole fighters project will be granted sometime next year, and will be launched under the Strategic Partners procurement policy." Then the article states, "The process for selecting contractors is yet to begin, but the MoD official said the businesses will be selected within three years." In light of the above, when is the MoD planning to conclude this contest?

So lets assume everything goes perfect as per the above article's timeframe. By 2021, the budget is cleared for $17 billion and then within three years a strategic partner will be selected. Let me also be generous to the MoD/IAF and state that in the same time they also went through the technical trials, did a down-select and started negotiations with the winner. So three years from 2021 is now 2024. At this point in time, we are either towards the term end of the current govt or if it is post May 2024, there will be a new Govt.

If it is the NDA/BJP that wins again, the OEM winner can breathe a sigh of relief. The negotiations will continue to move forward. If the Congress wins, expect serious investigation over the contract, which will delay negotiations with the OEM. Can BJP/NDA pull off a third term as the Congress did in 1962? Perhaps, but the BJP/NDA could very well lose. If I was an OEM + Strategic Partner who loses the contest, all I have to do is raise a stink and that alone will sink the contest. Basically start afresh, till investigation is complete.

If the BJP wins a third term, expect a contract to be signed by 2025. It is only after contract signature, can the first set of planes be delivered. Industry standard is three years, but OEMs can deliver faster than that...as long as the host nation is willing to pay for that increased delivery time. Knowing the MoD, they will never pay for that. So the first batch will arrive in 2028 and the last batch will be delivered by 2040. If the Congress wins, heaven only knows when the contract will be signed!

================================

Ignore all the other noise from the article - "significant foreign technology transfer" and "building manufacturing capability". That is the real obfuscation, as the last sentence in the article states ---> “Propriety Items could still be under the control of the OEM.” There can be *NO* real technology transfer (engine tech) or manufacturing capability (GaN foundry), as long as those propriety items are still under the control of the OEM.

And this is why the CDS' recent comments about MMRCA are interesting. He stated that they are looking at acquring the MMRCA in staggered purchases. While the service chiefs can state their requirements (as Bhaduria Sir just did following the CDS's interview), it is the CDS that makes the final call. Additional MRFAs are coming - the only sticking points are how many and in what timeframe.

Now if the CDS plan is adopted, the MoD will be making payments *ONLY* for the aircraft being acquired within that financial year. Paying for X number of aircraft per year is far cheaper than allocating $17 billion for 114 of them. The MoD knows that and so does the IAF. And when the budget reality hits the IAF, they will gladly follow the CDS plan. And it does not take a genius to figure out who that OEM is going to be.

In such a scenario, the production rate could look like something like this —> 11 aircraft a year for four years. These 44 aircraft + 36 Rafales will act as the silver bullet force. This silver bullet force will be supported by the upgraded Rambha and multiple Tejas variants (Mk1A, MWF, ORCA, etc). Any other scenario will not materialize - financially or politically.

Something to think about below....

India Prepares For New Fighter Tender
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... ter-tender
06 Feb 2020

However, in “winning a competition” such as this, a French industry official told AIN, “you do not really ‘win’ anything. What you supposedly win is the right to then sit down and negotiate a contract—and if you cannot come to some agreement, then you get nothing after having spent tens of millions [of dollars] for all the years it takes to bid a major program in a place like India.”

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 24 May 2020 03:20

The only exception to the above is.... :mrgreen:

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 60938?s=20 ---> From the CAG Rafale Report, an MMRCA flashback 2007. Mothballed MiG-29s in 2019...Karma is a Fulcrum.

Image

But I doubt the IAF wants anything to do with Roosi maal...

IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal Birender Singh Dhanoa calls MiG-35 a completely new aircraft
https://zeenews.india.com/india/iaf-chi ... 22045.html
25 July 2019

"In Kubinka, I happened to see the MiG-35, which has undergone major changes and upgrades. This is a completely new aircraft - very interesting. But for us, the procurement system remains the same. If there is a need for any type of aircraft, we hold a tender for compliance with all the declared characteristics. And we proceed to consideration at the next stages only after our test pilot makes an introductory flight on the proposed aircraft," the IAF chief told Krasnaya Zvezda, the official newspaper of the Russian Ministry of Defense.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Philip » 24 May 2020 03:40

The entire IAF fighter fiasco,for it is truly an IAF fiasco,reminds me of a song from that great Attenborough satirical film on WW1," Oh what a lovely war",a classic. The song ," One staff officer jumped over another staff officer..... ,they were only playing leapfrog",was about a new C-in-C taking over ,watch it on U-tube.

We've had MMRCA 1.0 which delivered only a small batch of birds, not the numbers wanted, the SE fighter req. which was stillborn, the MMRCA 2.0 which has delivered bugger all,and which will now be replaced by MMRCA 3.0 some years into the future while the " nitty-gritties" are being worked out! 3 cheers to the ACM for delivering one of the best quotes this century! Not up there with Sam Bahadur's great ones,but perfectly describing the IAF's ongoing saga of the fiasco of replacing our venerable MIG-21s after the LCA delivery broke all "confinement" records and is still delivering chicks at snails' pace.

IAF ACMs like those general staff officers of the British army will come and go,but the situation will remain the same.Bogged down in the trenches of babudom,unable to extricate oneself from the "red tape" of the MOD,more deadly than barbed wire ,and as the "file" painfully moves upwards negotiating hazardous tables, bombed by tons of paper and gassed by the wind from babus nether orifices,with the objective finally in sight, it is stopped by a withering hail of concentrated fire from the massed ranks of the reserves of babus serving their vested interests, only to retreat back to where it all started!

All the amount of time and money spent these last 20 years of this century alone has produced no more than the 36 Rafale chicks ( yet to wing their way here) ,and the IAF is existing on a Sov. era deal for manufacture of MKIs ,while waiting and waiting for little LCA eggs to hatch.
In the meantime even rummaging through the boneyard for unused MIG-29s which will still need upgrading and at least upgrading a goodly part of the IAF's backbone,the MKIs,has yet to be finalised and signed.But hang on,a brilliant idea has been born that truly has chutzpah ! For a service long derided for its winged ambitions by its sister services ,the IAF and the CDS now say that the Indian Navy 29Ks can happily do the biz on our land borders!

It's what I put forward to a group of starry-wallahs during the early stages of Kargil,since the Viraat was in dock,to use the SHs in the mountains to roast thd pigs.The admiral,chief of a command loved the idea and said give us the order, the IA general looked on expectantly while the IAF marshal merely looked down awkwardly ( a few aircraft and helos had been sadly lost) fidgeted with his drink saying nothing. It's taken two decades for the idea to hatch. Why not give defending our air space,at least in the coastal,islands and maritime sphere to the IN? They will decide faster on which birds they will need,plus release quite a few sqds. of IAF fighters to plug the gaps in our airspace on land.
Last edited by Philip on 24 May 2020 09:44, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby srai » 24 May 2020 06:13

Philip wrote:
The entire IAF fighter fiasco,for it is truly an IAF fiasco,reminds me of a song from that great Attenborough satirical film on WW1," Oh what a lovely war",a classic. The song ," One staff officer jumped over another staff officer..... ,they were only playing leapfrog",was about a new C-in-C taking over ,watch it on U-tube.

...

IAF ACMs like those general staff officers of the British army will come and go,but the situation will remain the same.Bogged down in the trenches of babudom,unable to extricate oneself from the "red tape" of the MOD,more deadly than barbed wire ,and as the "file" painfully moves upwards negotiating hazardous tables, bombed by tons of paper and gassed by the wind from babus nether orifices,with the objective finally in sight, it is stopped by a withering hail of concentrated fire from the massed ranks of the reserves of babus serving their vested interests, only to retreat back to where it all started!


...


Philip saar, reads like you have written your own little song verse here 8)

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Manish_P » 24 May 2020 11:34

Rakesh wrote:The only exception to the above is.... :mrgreen:

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 60938?s=20 ---> From the CAG Rafale Report, an MMRCA flashback 2007. Mothballed MiG-29s in 2019...Karma is a Fulcrum.

Image



All the recent statements talking about benefits of familiarity, commonality with existing infra etc made me wonder the same - whether we were trying to get the MiG29/35 line for the urgent medium weight fighter requirement and perhaps also getting the Mikoyan backroom boys to help out on reducing the curve on the AMCA

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 24 May 2020 19:31

From a politically safe viewpoint, the MiG-35 checks all the boxes. Hand the production over to HAL and the Congress will have nothing to say. They will not antagonize Russia. They know better than that.

From the IAF's viewpoint of familiarity and commonality with existing infrastructure (as you pointed out Manish), it is also a win-win. Also from a build-up-the-numbers-at-the-cheapest-possible-upfront-price, nothing beats the MiG-35.

From a flying test bed standpoint, the MiG-35 is great. Mikoyan will look the other way. Good luck with doing this on any of the American birds. Eurofighter Typhoon will be the same. The French may play game, but will come at a horrendous cost.

From the IAF's requirement of integrating desi weapons, systems and sensors - as the above article states - is another plus point. Again, an absolute no-go with the American birds. Mikoyan is not financially healthy and sales of later MiG-29 variants is what is likely keeping it afloat. They will be most eager to do this, if it means they will win the contract.

Where the sore sticking point is the level of valuable tech* on the MiG-35. All the other Western contestants in MMRCA 2.0 field more advanced sensors and weapons. And this is where she will likely lose in the contest, assuming such a contest takes place.

*I am a mango abdul in this dept and someone else will be able to provide more clarity on this.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby srin » 24 May 2020 19:58

Well, Mig-35 *could* have been a strong contender, and it can still be. For a fourth-generation fighter, all we need a basic airframe and engine and we can do the rest ourselves. So, we don't need the so-called TOT to help us.

We are developing much of the technologies ourselves - like AESA radar, etc. We are progressively arming our fighters with our own weapons like Astra or our selected weapons like ASRAAM, so we don't need those too.

However, the Mig-35 has some huge problems. One is the availability of spares and after-sale support. Second is that the deals with Russia seem to be taking a lot of time in negotiations post-signing. Lastly, the Mig-35 pitch has been quite half-hearted, so I'm not sure of the Russian interest. I'm currently not sure about the engine situation - if the same Mig-29K engine problems affect the Mig-35 too, so I'll hold my judgement on that.
Unless the Mig-35 can provide full specs and full localization of spares, and they do so very quickly, I don't see how it has a chance.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Philip » 25 May 2020 04:52

Localisation of spares will be the same for all contenders.The recent setting up of Indo-Ru entities to support Sov-era and Ru milware for all 3 services will make it easier to support the 35 if chosen.It's the pragmatic solution.Money saved on it could be used to buy extra Rafales too.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby srai » 25 May 2020 06:30

X-post

Need to get LCAs in numbers! Once MWF (or MRCA) comes into the picture excess LCA could be “donated” to friendly nations under a strategic partnership model. India still recoups costs through weapons, training, maintenance and spares for the life of the airframes.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby MeshaVishwas » 26 May 2020 03:25

Since this is fantasy, I want to see the Su-35 with the VayuSena, I have never seen such a beauty in the air.
:)

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Mollick.R » 26 May 2020 12:23

Sorry for the OT post,
just want to grab attention as much as possible.

X post form Int Aero Dhagga...

Senior members of BRF who have some access to ears of correct people , may please take it up.............

In twitter, found HVT sir also did his part of job...............

Image

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Manish_Sharma » 26 May 2020 22:35

MeshaVishwas wrote:Since this is fantasy, I want to see the Su-35 with the VayuSena, I have never seen such a beauty in the air.
:)

It's single seater, too much workload for pilot. It doesn't have fusion like Rafale et al.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Kartik » 27 May 2020 03:05

Rakesh wrote:From a politically safe viewpoint, the MiG-35 checks all the boxes. Hand the production over to HAL and the Congress will have nothing to say. They will not antagonize Russia. They know better than that.

From the IAF's viewpoint of familiarity and commonality with existing infrastructure (as you pointed out Manish), it is also a win-win. Also from a build-up-the-numbers-at-the-cheapest-possible-upfront-price, nothing beats the MiG-35.

From a flying test bed standpoint, the MiG-35 is great. Mikoyan will look the other way. Good luck with doing this on any of the American birds. Eurofighter Typhoon will be the same. The French may play game, but will come at a horrendous cost.

From the IAF's requirement of integrating desi weapons, systems and sensors - as the above article states - is another plus point. Again, an absolute no-go with the American birds. Mikoyan is not financially healthy and sales of later MiG-29 variants is what is likely keeping it afloat. They will be most eager to do this, if it means they will win the contract.

Where the sore sticking point is the level of valuable tech* on the MiG-35. All the other Western contestants in MMRCA 2.0 field more advanced sensors and weapons. And this is where she will likely lose in the contest, assuming such a contest takes place.

*I am a mango abdul in this dept and someone else will be able to provide more clarity on this.


Before doing anything, let a real MiG-35 first fly, enter RuAF service and then we can talk about it being fit to serve IAF needs. As of today, there is still not a single production MiG-35 with the specs that would've been offered to the IAF.

The last thing the IAF needs is to adopt an orphan, and then have to work with ADA and DRDO to get it to meet the specs it originally should've met.

It will remain the least mature, least well backed and most risky solution of all the contenders.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ldev » 27 May 2020 09:14

Frankly if Shri Modi had ordered F16s in 2016 instead of the Rafale, Lockheed would probably have delivered 36 or 48 by now. And brar_w will probably be able to opine as to whether the Meteor can be integrated with the F-16 block 60/70? The APG-83 radar certainly has range compatibility with the Meteor. I thought at one stage the Turkish Air Force was wanting to integrate the Meteor with their F-16s but am not sure if that project materialized. That integration would have been under the India Specific Enhancements cost head. Plus Lockheed has already integrated the Meteor with the F-35 and it's AN/APG-81 radar.Either way the F16 Block 60 with a Meteor would have cost significantly less than the Rafale and the IAF would have probably been able to buy at least 72 of them or more. With things heating up on the China border it would have been nice to have some newer technology that China does not possess in decent number of aircraft, a cheaper aircraft and a killer missile.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby arvin » 27 May 2020 09:50

Kartik wrote:
Before doing anything, let a real MiG-35 first fly, enter RuAF service and then we can talk about it being fit to serve IAF needs. As of today, there is still not a single production MiG-35 with the specs that would've been offered to the IAF.

The last thing the IAF needs is to adopt an orphan, and then have to work with ADA and DRDO to get it to meet the specs it originally should've met.

It will remain the least mature, least well backed and most risky solution of all the contenders.


Very true. Mig 35 should have been named phantom instead of F4. Atleast F4 exists for real. Russia has a similar candidate in P 75I tender as well.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Cain Marko » 27 May 2020 12:43

Phantom plane for phantom competition. Why not? It is basic math:

Phantom plane + phantom competition = fandom thread.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Roop » 27 May 2020 13:06

ldev wrote:Frankly if Shri Modi had ordered F16s in 2016 instead of the Rafale, Lockheed would probably have delivered 36 or 48 by now.

Maybe you are right, but it's a pure hypothetical now. The IAF was absolutely dead-set against buying an American plane (and so was most of BRF, BTW :) ), in fact against buying anything other than the two short-listed candidates (Rafale or Eurofighter).

But since we are discussing hypotheticals, let me go further: if India had decided to buy any American plane, fretting about integrating Meteor would have been an unnecessary distraction -- AMRAAM AIM-120D and more would have been easily forthcoming, and probably cheaper and in greater numbers than any non-US missile.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby srai » 27 May 2020 14:38

^^^
Who have they exported AIM-120D to so far???

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 27 May 2020 16:56

Kartik wrote:Before doing anything, let a real MiG-35 first fly, enter RuAF service and then we can talk about it being fit to serve IAF needs. As of today, there is still not a single production MiG-35 with the specs that would've been offered to the IAF.

The last thing the IAF needs is to adopt an orphan, and then have to work with ADA and DRDO to get it to meet the specs it originally should've met.

It will remain the least mature, least well backed and most risky solution of all the contenders.

Just like as of today, there is not a single production F-21 variant that exists with the specs that are planned to have been offered to the IAF? If we are using a production variant to exist and fly today, as a yardstick to measure, the F-21 also fails to make that cut. And just like the MiG-35 has not entered RuAF service, neither will the F-21 enter service with any other country because LM plans to make India the sole F-21 customer. They have said that they will not sell the plane to any other country, if they win the contract.

Another plane (Gripen E) in the contest - will achieve FOC only by 2025. But yet again, it is being considered. But she is flying and will be operated by other countries as well ;)

The IAF has done this in the past i.e. the initial batch of Mirage 2000s came in with less powerful engines. Same story with the initial batch of Jaguars. Phoren maal is always given leeway. It is phoren after all, it will work.

As Air Chief Marshal Dhanoa Sir said, the MiG-35 is a completely new aircraft and very interesting, but she will have to go through the procurement process.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 27 May 2020 17:05

ldev wrote:Frankly if Shri Modi had ordered F-16s in 2016 instead of the Rafale, Lockheed would probably have delivered 36 or 48 by now.

That is a poor understanding of the procurement process. While the GoI is paying for the aircraft, the customer and the user is the Indian Air Force. Ordering F-16s in 2016 would have been the F-16 Block 70/72 variant which was in contention with the Gripen E variant. So there has to be a procurement process to acquire the F-16, which was the single engine fighter contest which existed from late 2015/early 2016 till March 2018.

The Modi Govt would not have ordered F-16s (or any fighter plane) off the cuff in 2016 and that too without the IAF's buy in. RaGa was frothing at the mouth over the Rafale procurement. If the GOI bought F-16s (or any fighter plane) without a contest, he would be hysterical. The only exception would be ordering more aircraft currently in service i.e. those 21 MiG-29s.

The IAF never wanted the F-16IN offered in the first MMRCA contest, as they so clearly stated in the CAG report on the Rafale. I am not sure how eager the IAF is on the F-21 variant, but I do know they were not impressed with the Block 70/72 variant.

Performance Audit Report of the CAG on Capital Acquisition of the Indian Air Force
https://bit.ly/2Stik7q

IAF also argued that though F-16/F-18 of M/s Lockheed Martin/Boeing USA were in similar class as the Mirage 2000 MK II, it could face difficulties in case sanctions were imposed by USA.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby brar_w » 27 May 2020 17:13

srai wrote:^^^
Who have they exported AIM-120D to so far???

AIM-120D has been approved for the UK, Canada and Australia. Finland will probably be the next nation to get approved for it.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 27 May 2020 18:30

https://twitter.com/Chopsyturvey/status ... 16097?s=20 ---> Are we really progressing sufficiently? We could be heading towards 25 squadrons. Hope it doesn't happen. MMRCA 2 RFP still far. LCA production too slow. 20 aircraft since 2016.

https://twitter.com/KSingh_1469/status/ ... 22787?s=20 ---> MMRCA 2 will never happen sir, that is clear. LCA production is slow because orders are minimal - 20+20 to date. Six squadrons of LCA, 1-2 more MKI squadrons and 2 more Rafale squadrons by the mid-2020s before MWF comes online is a very decent re-capitalisation to complement existing fleet.

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 23744?s=20 ---> You are right on all points.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby ldev » 27 May 2020 18:59

Roop wrote:
ldev wrote:Frankly if Shri Modi had ordered F16s in 2016 instead of the Rafale, Lockheed would probably have delivered 36 or 48 by now.

Maybe you are right, but it's a pure hypothetical now. The IAF was absolutely dead-set against buying an American plane (and so was most of BRF, BTW :) ), in fact against buying anything other than the two short-listed candidates (Rafale or Eurofighter).

But since we are discussing hypotheticals, let me go further: if India had decided to buy any American plane, fretting about integrating Meteor would have been an unnecessary distraction -- AMRAAM AIM-120D and more would have been easily forthcoming, and probably cheaper and in greater numbers than any non-US missile.

I threw in the Meteor integration to the F-16 since the IAF seems hell bent on having some high end French food, as they are not satisfied with burger and fries :rotfl: though you are perfectly right that the AIM-120D is cheaper.

But from a practical standpoint it would have been more effective to have 36-48 operational F-16s today in India vs 4-6 Rafale in Indian colors flying around in France when the battle is on the India China front.

I just do not want a repeat of the day after Balakot when IAF SU-30s are doing "evasive maneuvers" against PL-15s fired by Chinese SU-35s. I want IAF fighters to kick some ass and down PLAAF planes if it does come to a shooting match.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 27 May 2020 19:10

ldev wrote:I threw in the Meteor integration to the F-16 since the IAF seems hell bent on having some high end French food, as they are not satisfied with burger and fries :rotfl: though you are perfectly right that the AIM-120D is cheaper.

I just do not want a repeat of the day after Balakot when IAF SU-30s are doing "evasive maneuvers" against PL-15s fired by Chinese SU-35s. I want IAF fighters to kick some ass and down PLAAF planes if it does come to a shooting match.

If a fight does happen after the first batch of Rafales arrive, we will do that onlee with the high end French Food :mrgreen: :lol:

Burgers and Fries are passe, the IAF prefers Coq au vin. Way more palatable and no heartburn after.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby brar_w » 27 May 2020 19:14

Given SAAB/Sweden's involvement with the Meteor and their early adopter status, one would think that there would be extreme reluctance on part of MBDA when it comes to integrating the Meteor on the F-16. F-16 and Gripen E are direct competitors at the lower end of the 4+ gen. fighters and offering the Meteor is one advantage that the Gripen team enjoys. ROI on Gripen E/NG program hinges upon export success as Sweden along cannot sustain that program or make it viable.
Last edited by brar_w on 27 May 2020 19:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Rakesh » 27 May 2020 19:15

brar_w wrote:Given SAAB/Sweden's involvement with the Meteor and their early adopter status, one would think that there would be extreme reluctance on part of MBDA when it comes to integrating the Meteor on the F-16. F-16 and Gripen E are direct competitors at the lower end of the 4+ gen. fighters and offering the Meteor is one advantage that the Gripen team enjoys. ROE on Gripen E/NG program hinges upon export success as Sweden along cannot sustain that program or make it viable.

Saar, why do you want to burst the bubble? Please don't say things like this. You will give them takleef.

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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

Postby Cain Marko » 28 May 2020 00:10

Rakesh wrote:Where the sore sticking point is the level of valuable tech* on the MiG-35. All the other Western contestants in MMRCA 2.0 field more advanced sensors and weapons. And this is where she will likely lose in the contest, assuming such a contest takes place.

*I am a mango abdul in this dept and someone else will be able to provide more clarity on this.

From one aam to another... This is possibly the most important reason why the IAF went euro. They needed an Uber system w top notch sensors and weapons, esp. A2a. Unfortunately the russkis didn't have it. Esp. The weapons part. Nor even the Israelis.

Otherwise integrating Tejas aesa and derby er would be a no brainier on the fulcrum.


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