India Border Watch: Security and Operations

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Sravan » 27 May 2020 23:31

Mort Walker wrote:
Sravan wrote::roll:

What’s wrong with being seen as Aggressive? No one is punishing or rewarding us for good behavior.


You don't start a war you can't finish.


Why not? Wasn’t 1962 that and 1965 and 1999.

I think India should up the ante every time until this blackmail stops. Wars turn into stalemates all the time: Iraq, Afghanistan for example. There is no clear cut just cause or victory in war. There is a strategic milestone and tactical maneuvering. Our strategic goal is to impart pain for questioning the LAC and that would be accomplished by war. We don’t need a decisive victory or a just cause for that. Just need to prove to the counter party that they have a bloody nose and make them feel some pain.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby khan » 27 May 2020 23:32

Mort Walker wrote:
Sravan wrote::roll:

What’s wrong with being seen as Aggressive? No one is punishing or rewarding us for good behavior.


You don't start a war you can't finish.

Yes, this logic applies both ways. India should just send 10K people in there with cricket bats covered in barbed wire & kick them out. That will settle the issue.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby chola » 27 May 2020 23:34

madhu wrote:Guys, can some one let me know what is the reason for this sudden aggressive nature of PLA. lets say if it 8s to divert the attention from COVID, what if things slip out and war starts. Is it not a loss for china? At the time when whole world is against country, industry looking for exit would you not think that the industry exit will simply accelerated as no industry would like to work in the world where uncertainty, secrecy are there.


Who knows? Maybe they are paranoid and think we are going to crowd them out. Maybe we are crowding them out. Maybe the young Lt. punched Xi's favorite uncle. Who knows with these things. As Mort said, why are we always the victim in the narrative?

All I know is that our numbers are overwhelming and once again just a few years after Doklam we are presented with an opportunity to right a few historic wrongs.

People are afraid of a total war like the Russian-German where the Russkie MIC finally overwhelmed the superior field armies of the krauts.

BUT people forget that if the Germans hadn't tried to drive to Moscow, hadn't fought at Stalingrad, they would have kept all of European Russia to this very day. We won't be going to Beijing or Shanghai or even Lhasa. We'll take what was ours and the chinis will live with it, especially with Hong Kong and Taiwan looming.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Raveen » 27 May 2020 23:36

bkswarti wrote:
Raveen wrote:I would refrain from offtopic and unnecessary political commentary here - BJP has done a lot for the forces over the last couple of administrations none of that paisa nahin hai for planes rona dhona but Eurocopter VVIP kickback ke liye hai.


Funny how you say to refrain from off topic and unnecessary political commentary here and then provide your off topic and unnecessary political commentary.

Going back to topic; currently, although de escalation is clearly the best way forward; our armed forces should be prepared for a conflict and start rapidly modernizing and put in place plans for local manufacturing if they haven’t already.


What is not funny and decidedly off topic is your original imbecile post that needed to be addressed at its level. Continue shivering under your dhoti.

Neither side is assured victory, which in itself is a loss to CCP Han force trying to establish itself as a global power. When they can't be assured of a win in its own backyard over India, what global power and threat? They will lose more face the longer any armed conflict goes on - domestically and internationally.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Rakesh » 27 May 2020 23:38

Raveen and bkswarti, please stop replying to each other. Otherwise I will have to start issuing bans.

bkswarti, you have received an official warning.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Sravan » 27 May 2020 23:40

yensoy wrote:Are we done with the various crackpot theories and proposals now?

Ok the fact is that Tibet and Xinjiang are the last things in most Han Chinese peoples minds. It is beyond the beyond, much like how we "mainland" non-fauji Indians didn't think of or didn't think much of the north-east till the whole economy in our cities started pivoting around the hard-working migrant labour from those far off states. Tibet and Xinjiang's remoteness is probably 10 times as that, and literally the Han people view the other races in a very dim manner, not even giving them their rightful place in history or dignity as workers.

However, if we were to capture any currently Chinese held territory in Tibet, you can be assured that the Chinese will launch an all-out attack to recover said territories. Unless we have a really fool-proof way to hold on to it, and unless we can ensure that they cannot or will not retaliate elsewhere, and unless we have some moral justification (our intervention to halt a local pogrom of Tibetans would be a good story in the global opinion), we cannot and should not attempt such an action because it may backfire.

The reason they will react is very simple, loss of face. I recall but unable to find any online link that any Chinese leader who loses territory faces the death penalty. Regardless of the legal status, dear leader's internal enemies will be ready with an empty grave if he falters. Don't forget that UK fought to keep a bunch of frozen islands thousands of miles away from London and of very little economic value to them.

Likewise the Chinese also know that we will defend our territory to the hilt at this juncture and are ready to throw the book at them if they ingress and hold on to what is clearly ours (clearly as in constructed and populated, not an area where we have been patrolling and they are leaving cigarette butts). Ours is an army that climbed mountains on the sheer face to surprise the entrenched enemy in Kargil, ours is the army that spends 365 days of the year on a glacier, and unless they want to sit in guard of their salami slices through the harsh Himalayan winter, we will be back next year with the piece of artillery that drives them bat crazy, our bulldozer.


I don’t give a ****** about this. I want to be able to walk around with my head held high and not be beholden to decision paralysis. Hit them hard and rally support for a ceasefire. Give them their own medicine and all these shenanigans will stop.

Why the ****** should we care if some CCP stooge gets the death penalty for loss of face. That’s not our problem. I clearly articulated the strategic chips on the table. Tibet is a remote region that has no value to the Hans. They are pushing their luck because the pain is an attack on Tibet which has no strategic value to the Hans. Tibet is a buffer state or a geographical shield that China uses to attack India. Annex a buffer state that you don’t develop and care about and then bully the neighboring state. The mainland Chinese is 100% isolated from any blowback since Tibet gets the pain. We need to up the ante by changing the theater. That theater needs to be SCS. Miss adventure in Himalayas = new artificial island in SCS or annex Tibet and take the fight to mainland China. These are the only two strategies that will work. The current strategy is crap and we keep getting ****** by salami slicing. I have self respect and this is how I foresee defending my self respect. If you want to psychoanalyze how to get self respect be my guest. But generally it’s simple and straightforward. Someone punches you or threatens to punch you or puts your life in danger, you kick them in the balls (maximize the pain) and offer them an ice pack (conciliatory gesture).

Imagine this scenario. India annexed Tibet in 1962. Indian troops on Tibet border with Mainland China doings salami slicing. Would you care about blowback? No. Tibet would get the blowback and New Delhi would be isolated from any potential pain inflected as a counter response. So just by defining the playground, you automatically gained an upper hand. So the first rule is to define the theater of war. The Himalayan theater is hugely advantageous to the Chinese. They prick us with minimum troop presence to keep us confined there. They maintain this with 3 divisions, while we have a 3:1 ratio. If we want to justify the disproportionate troop level, we have to take Tibet. If not reduce the troop level and redeploy a similar prescience in SCS. If neither is done, there is no pain being inflected in Chinese actions. Now if we were salami slicing Mainland China, and they started building bases in Sri Lanka as a counter strategy, we would back off since their ability to inflict pain on our mainland matches our ability to inflict pain through Tibet.

The best defense is offense. What is the pain that China is incurring by taking this risk. If there is no pain, there is no negative feedback to stop. It’s that simple. We have to inflict pain and they will stop this strategy. The current status quo is a Chinese lever to rebalance our troop levels based on unilateral decisions taken by the CCP to distract us. This compromises national security. We need to get the threat closer to mainland China. There are two options, liberate Tibet to make it a buffer state so this is no longer a problem and take the fight to the Chinese or apply pressure on their eastern Seaboard for any pressure in the Himalayas. The Chinese are using this strategy against us first through Tibet and now through Pakistan and Nepal. Purely defensive strategies always leads to defeat. India needs to figure out how to inflict pain (economic, physical land, loss of human life) everytime we are pushed around like this, otherwise it’s a defeat in my book. Celebrating tweets that call for deescalation is a defeatist mentality. China will try again and maintain the superpower narrative while pushing a narrative to India’s neighbors that they fall under China’s sphere of influence because India doesn’t do anything when it gets humiliated and celebrates a cease fire. If I were China, I would do this all day until I turn all of India’s neighbors into buffer states and go in for the kill one day.

So the first battle Indians need to win is the ability to define the battle and the theater in which it is fought. If we don’t have freedom or flexibility to act on this, we have already given too much power to the enemy. We need to focus on counter balancing this by adding a buffer state that can act as the theater; insulating threats to that theater or by imposing a new theater closer to the enemy’s core civilization. New Delhi is very close to the current theater while Beijing is far away and insulated. That’s the first battle where we need to change the status quo preferably on land vs the Sea.
Last edited by Sravan on 28 May 2020 00:30, edited 7 times in total.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Rakesh » 28 May 2020 00:04

https://twitter.com/majorgauravarya/sta ... 40512?s=20 ---> Hello @realDonaldTrump

You wanted to mediate in Kashmir. We said no.

Now you want to mediate between China and India. Again, no. We can manage our own affairs. Thank you.

If you want us to mediate between US and China, let us know. Welcome to the neighbourhood.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Rakesh » 28 May 2020 00:06

https://twitter.com/majorgauravarya/sta ... 10369?s=20 ---> ‘Do not let differences overshadow relations’: China’s India envoy on ties. China gently takes a step back, not wanting to escalate the stand-off with India. Dil toot gaya Pakistan ka :rotfl:

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Mort Walker » 28 May 2020 00:21

khan wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:
You don't start a war you can't finish.

Yes, this logic applies both ways. India should just send 10K people in there with cricket bats covered in barbed wire & kick them out. That will settle the issue.


China is not TSP as they are a major world power. They are playing the waiting game to build up resources while India has become weakened due to COVID-19. Launching an offensive operation for China will take a 3:1 advantage in men and assets.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Manish_Sharma » 28 May 2020 00:22

TWITTER
DrApr007

#BREAKING : Fresh cross LoC shelling started between our and Pakistani troops in Khari Karmara & Gulpur sector of Poonch after ceasefire violation by Pak Army.

It was expected.
https://twitter.com/drapr007/status/126 ... 00896?s=19

#BREAKING : IA targeted a communication centre of PA near Potha Bainsi village of PoK around 8 PM today evening with guided munitions. This centre was established by PA to support infiltrators. Target achieved.

#JaiHindKiSena
https://twitter.com/drapr007/status/126 ... 00736?s=19

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Mort Walker » 28 May 2020 00:23

Rakesh wrote:Dil toot gaya Pakistan ka :rotfl:

Can we quit talking about those mofos when dealing with the Chinese? Who gives a rat's ass what TSP thinks.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Rakesh » 28 May 2020 00:24

Saar, that is not me :) I just reproduced Major Gaurav Arya's tweet, right down to the rolling on the floor laughter.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby yensoy » 28 May 2020 00:30

Sravan wrote:I don’t give a ****** about this. I want to be able to walk around with my head held high and not be beholden to decision paralysis. Hit them hard and rally support for a ceasefire.

So in your plan we will march into Lhasa and then that's it? The Red army will get a bloody nose and they will go whimpering back to Beijing? By any chance did you also plan Op Gibraltar in an earlier life?

Reality doesn't work that way. Your proposal is too absurd to even begin dissecting. The force asymmetry has to be remarkably in your favour to win a decisive battle. Like it was in Bangladesh for us.

I am taking the risk of getting blocked/banned in BRF, but let me repeat, yours is a crackpot suggestion. Wresting a sizable chunk of territory by force is something neither we nor China can do at this point in time. The moment we also start playing the Chinese game is when they will back off, as a wise man once said:
Sravan wrote:Give them their own medicine and all these shenanigans will stop.

They are creatures of the night reveling in the ambiguity of the undefined border and doing their utmost to keep it ambiguous. We need to draw a line and defend the line, as simple as that. Then they will slink back and try a different game. Yes, they will keep trying games because that's what they do. We better get used to it and start outplaying them.
Last edited by yensoy on 28 May 2020 00:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Mort Walker » 28 May 2020 00:31

Rakeshji,

Sorry, I should have known better when it's a Republic TV reporter's main aim is to improve TRPs.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Manish_Sharma » 28 May 2020 00:33

TWITTER
@Chellaney


Had China objected to India’s DSDBO road, it would have tried disrupting its completion while it was under construction for 18 long years. It is unlikely that this road per se was the trigger for China's incursions. Broader politico-military aims against India seem to be at play.
https://twitter.com/Chellaney/status/12 ... 11366?s=19
____________________
General Ved Malik answers:
Some that I can list among recent happenings are: support of Covid origin investigations, Quad stance on S. China Sea, restrictions on Chinese FDI, attempt to improve relations with Taipeh, Article 35A in J&K. ...

Our actions were in national interest... China has been working against India's national interest for too long and indulging in frequent coercion

https://twitter.com/Vedmalik1/status/12 ... 59552?s=19

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Mort Walker » 28 May 2020 00:33

Any negotiations with the Chinese must begin with the return to prior 1962 borders. Nothing less.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby yensoy » 28 May 2020 00:37

Mort Walker wrote:Any negotiations with the Chinese must begin with the return to prior 1962 borders. Nothing less.

And it's high time that we started talking about the "Chinese controlled Tibet" border rather than China border. Tibet should be shown distinctly in Indian maps and all official publications; dotted line is ok but clearly call out its special status (by their own definition it's TAR).

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Sravan » 28 May 2020 00:39

yensoy wrote:
Sravan wrote:I don’t give a ****** about this. I want to be able to walk around with my head held high and not be beholden to decision paralysis. Hit them hard and rally support for a ceasefire. Give them their own medicine and all these shenanigans will stop.

So in your plan we will march into Lhasa and then that's it? The Red army will get a bloody nose and they will go whimpering back to Beijing? By any chance did you also plan Op Gibraltar in an earlier life?

Reality doesn't work that way. Your proposal is too absurd to even begin dissecting. The force asymmetry has to be remarkably in your favour to win a decisive battle. Like it was in Bangladesh for us.

I am taking the risk of getting blocked/banned in BRF, but let me repeat, yours is a crackpot suggestion. Wresting a sizable chunk of territory by force is something neither we nor China can do at this point in time. The moment we also start playing the Chinese game is when they will back off. They are creatures of the night reveling in the ambiguity of the undefined border and doing their utmost to keep it ambiguous. We need to draw a line and defend the line, as simple as that. Then they will slink back and try a different game. Yes, they will keep trying games because that's what they do. We better get used to it and start outplaying them.


Please tell me how reality works. I turn your friends against you and use them to hurt you. You know it’s me that’s doing this. Yet your only response is to fight with your friends. That is a very unsophisticated and stupid way to fight.

If you know the source of your friends turning is me, then you should know that I will only feel any incentive to stop these shenanigans when you directly engage me where it hurts. I can play the game of turning your friends against you as long as I feel safe. The minute you engage me and bring the threat to my door, my focus will shift towards protecting myself.

The same analogy applies to India China. You being India and me being China. So it’s a crackpot strategy to self impose restrictions on how you respond to me. This is what India is currently doing by restricting its response. India is tied up in CBM measures after China changed the status quo with annexing Tibet. Of course they will want CBMs to restrict India now. The first thing to drop is the CBMs and protocols that effectively restrict India’s response. Any inferred incursion should be shoot on sight and the LAC issue will sort itself out. Secondly, we should continue building pressure in SCS and encourage dissent in Tibet.
Last edited by Sravan on 28 May 2020 00:43, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Mort Walker » 28 May 2020 00:43

I'm afraid this thread is now going toward overall strategy dealing with the Chinese. Probably best to move such discussion to another thread and leave this space for LAC and LOC watch.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Rakesh » 28 May 2020 00:44

Sravan and yensoy, relax.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Manish_Sharma » 28 May 2020 00:45

yensoy wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:Any negotiations with the Chinese must begin with the return to prior 1962 borders. Nothing less.

And it's high time that we started talking about the "Chinese controlled Tibet" border rather than China border. Tibet should be shown distinctly in Indian maps and all official publications; dotted line is ok but clearly call out its special status (by their own definition it's TAR).


Or start calling Tibet as Northern Arunachal Pradesh.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Sravan » 28 May 2020 01:00

Rakesh wrote:Sravan and yensoy, relax.


Noted, just wanted to get my thoughts off my chest. I don't post often until I have something to say.
Last edited by Sravan on 28 May 2020 01:41, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ldev » 28 May 2020 01:03

India waits for China’s diplomatic words to ‘translate into action on ground’ at LAC in Ladakh

Sources said the Indian demands are very clear, and words should translate into action.

“The words spoken by the Chinese diplomats are very nice. But words alone do not matter from a military point of view, they have to translate into action on the ground,” a source said.

The sources maintained that China will have to withdraw troops from forward positions along the LAC, and from areas where they have transgressed.

“All it would take China is five or six hours for the tents to be packed up and moved back to their earlier positions,” said the source quoted above.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Y I Patel » 28 May 2020 01:37

The above article mentions that the more serious incursion is near the Gogra post. It also talks about some patrol points whose geographic location is obscure, but very likely to be in Shamal Lungpa. Refer to my posts and geographic coordinates for context

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby chetak » 28 May 2020 01:53

meanwhile............


Image

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby RKumar » 28 May 2020 01:55

Let’s don’t lower our guards as Chinese are famous for speaking with forked tongues. They say one thing while do the opposite. We should keep an eagle’s eye on Chinese movements as well as their actions. Xi’s War cry and build up on the borders are too big to ignore.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ArjunPandit » 28 May 2020 02:41

bkswarti wrote:Funny how you say to refrain from off topic and unnecessary political commentary here and then provide your off topic and unnecessary political commentary.

Going back to topic; currently, although de escalation is clearly the best way forward; our armed forces should be prepared for a conflict and start rapidly modernizing and put in place plans for local manufacturing if they haven’t already.

didnt want to be patronizing ..but thats what is needed here...
did you even bother to read rohit vats tweet posted above? have you managed to look into the placement of troops and geography or the area. Speaking before that you are making a fool of yourself...enough of platitudes....would be great if you read, think, analyze before posting whatever comes to your mind..

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby sudeepj » 28 May 2020 05:37

madhu wrote:Guys, can some one let me know what is the reason for this sudden aggressive nature of PLA. lets say if it 8s to divert the attention from COVID, what if things slip out and war starts. Is it not a loss for china? At the time when whole world is against country, industry looking for exit would you not think that the industry exit will simply accelerated as no industry would like to work in the world where uncertainty, secrecy are there.

Usually countries follow a carrot and stick policy when dealing with other nations. Great power rivalry is brewing up again after a long hiatus. At least for a while, there was this idea that India should be a swing state in this competition.

But in this competition, while one side has technology, markets, loans, cultural access to offer. What does China have to offer to India? China is in an unenviable position where they only have the 'stick' as a tool to deal with India and even that is reaching a point of diminishing returns. After blocking Indias access to NSG, to the security council, to other multilateral fora, using its Veto to shield Maulana Masood Azhar (!!!!) - what more can they do to 'punish' India?

Beating up a few soldiers on the border with clubs like a bunch of mafiosi is what the great power has been reduced to. And even that has not yielded any results! India has more capabilities in that area than them!

This to me, appears to be a desperate call for India to come to a table and talk to the Chinese.

Even if this escalates further, it will unify Indians like nothing else behind the current govt. It will close Indian markets to Chinese tech. for at least a decade if not more. Existing investments will be made to divest for pennies on the dollar. And India will obviously survive any border war. We have eminently defensible borders in both Ladakh and Arunachal. If they bomb cities, they are equally vulnerable. And they might finally wake up the tiger into becoming a maha-power.

So dont worry, have curry. And buy Indian.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby sudeepj » 28 May 2020 05:52

Mort Walker wrote:
Yagnasri wrote:India in 2020 is not India in 1962 and the leadership of armed forces and the nation in 2020 is not the same as in 1962. While I agree that there are serious issues in our budget and capital acquisition etc, we are much better than in 1962. Further, we are not going to be surprised like we did in 1962.

Let us not have dhothi shivers.


In 1962, China GDP = $47 billion and India $43 billion. Parity.
In 2020, China GDP = $27.3 trillion PPP and India $10.5 trillion PPP. Two to one advantage for China as they can muster more resources in a 3 week war. Further, India's economy has been severely degraded by COVID-19. Don't think Chinese actions are happening without them knowing all the facts.

There is a very good reason to dhothi shiver. India will get its arse kicked hard. 1962 was a Chinese victory and 2020 will be a Chinese victory.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

If wars were decided by such comparisons, they would never break out! Everything would be decided by a statistic comparison between bean counters. China has everything to lose, nothing to gain by this thing going kinetic.

Which is why their ambassador is mewling like a cheap hooker soliciting clients now.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby fanne » 28 May 2020 05:55

some maps for consideration - China has to haul men and material from 2000 KM (up to snowy dessert plateau) to come to Arunachal Pradesh. There main population centers are that far away. Then it is further 2000 KM from there on the Tibetan plateau to Leh/Ladhak on a road called 212 highway, that almost runs parallel to the boundary, some 200 km inside (meaning, most of the road can be interdicted by Indian fighters flying from Northern bases).
It can hoard men and material (but Tibet is fairly unlivable, can only support so much from material grown there, all has to be hauled from mainland) and fight, but will be dependent on a very long and vulnerable logistic chain - Both that can be damaged by special ops (Vikas regiment), or air power.

https://t16lxaj58e-flywheel.netdna-ssl. ... y-map2.jpg

https://t16lxaj58e-flywheel.netdna-ssl. ... ensity.jpg

Road maps
https://www.tibettravel.org/assets/map/ ... -tibet.jpg

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby sudeepj » 28 May 2020 05:59

nam wrote:Our man has now increased the Chini force level to 10K. The goras are now very "concerned".

Looks like someone has been reading my suggestion to add masala and increase the count to 10K :rotfl:

Now our media will make more noise and hope the US ambassador in Delhi is watching the news. Few words from Trump about evil commies attacking "the free world" countries would spice up things.

We would be all set for being the victim, who has full right of self defence.

3000+ KM of LAC. Lot of places for India to improve it's "perception".


The Western lobby has everything to gain by making the Chinese appear 10 feet tall to scare India into their arms. Shukla should have his journalistic license, if there is such a thing, taken away. The chap is clearly on many payrolls.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby fanne » 28 May 2020 06:01

The funny thing, we should not have lost the 1962 war. The border, the map etc. all are exactly the same. The army was also same. I think it needed a Nehru to achieve that. We had an @$$h*#@ as a leader, who deliberately undermined the army and the nation. And that loss still stymie's us. But all else equal, we will always be at advantageous position in the Himalayas. If we are willing to play our cards right, we cam hold Tibet (definitely west of Lhasa) more easily than the Chinese.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby fanne » 28 May 2020 06:09

Chinese missile forces is the only trump card. They can hit deep and effect Indian population center using shorter range missile. For us to respond in kind (and do not have to, we can hit targets in Tibet using short range missiles), we will have to use IRBM/ICBM which would be many times costlier than SRBM.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby sudeepj » 28 May 2020 06:24

fanne wrote:The funny thing, we should not have lost the 1962 war. The border, the map etc. all are exactly the same. The army was also same. I think it needed a Nehru to achieve that. We had an @$$h*#@ as a leader, who deliberately undermined the army and the nation. And that loss still stymie's us. But all else equal, we will always be at advantageous position in the Himalayas. If we are willing to play our cards right, we cam hold Tibet (definitely west of Lhasa) more easily than the Chinese.


The tactical deployment of the Indian army executing Nehrus policy was also different. Indian forces were deployed in penny packets all over, far ahead of natural defense lines. If you are the aggressor, its easy to kill field armies out in the open. I dont think we will do the same mistake twice.

To all the 'not 1 inch backwards from our sacred soil' maharathis, I say.. War is a game of kabaddi. Some times you move forward, some times back while still playing the game. You dont stand at the 'border line' so the opposing raider can touch you while still on his own side!

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Mort Walker » 28 May 2020 06:29

sudeepj wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:
In 1962, China GDP = $47 billion and India $43 billion. Parity.
In 2020, China GDP = $27.3 trillion PPP and India $10.5 trillion PPP. Two to one advantage for China as they can muster more resources in a 3 week war. Further, India's economy has been severely degraded by COVID-19. Don't think Chinese actions are happening without them knowing all the facts.

There is a very good reason to dhothi shiver. India will get its arse kicked hard. 1962 was a Chinese victory and 2020 will be a Chinese victory.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

If wars were decided by such comparisons, they would never break out! Everything would be decided by a statistic comparison between bean counters. China has everything to lose, nothing to gain by this thing going kinetic.

Which is why their ambassador is mewling like a cheap hooker soliciting clients now.



Winning a tactical battle and winning a prolonged war of 4-6 weeks are two different things. It is the exact same reason TSP can never win a war against India. The Chinese have production capability they can bring over time, and India does not. Geography makes it difficult, but it's something they can do. What the Chinese ambassador says or what their political leadership says in the press is entirely different to what the PLA does.

The Chinese are playing a different game...weaken India economically where it can't produce its own systems or buy weapons from Russia and France. Then with enough pin pricks from TSP coupled with internal dissent from the urban naxals will make India ripe for the picking.

You can keep laughing, but just remember to wake up. Several hundred LCH, Tejas, and Dhanush are needed yesterday to deal with the Chinese and TSP simultaneously.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby sudeepj » 28 May 2020 06:33

Mort Walker wrote:
sudeepj wrote:
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

If wars were decided by such comparisons, they would never break out! Everything would be decided by a statistic comparison between bean counters. China has everything to lose, nothing to gain by this thing going kinetic.

Which is why their ambassador is mewling like a cheap hooker soliciting clients now.



Winning a tactical battle and winning a prolonged war of 4-6 weeks are two different things. It is the exact same reason TSP can never win a war against India. The Chinese have production capability they can bring over time, and India does not. Geography makes it difficult, but it's something they can do. What the Chinese ambassador says or what their political leadership says in the press is entirely different to what the PLA does.

The Chinese are playing a different game...weaken India economically where it can't produce its own systems or buy weapons from Russia and France. Then with enough pin pricks from TSP coupled with internal dissent from the urban naxals will make India ripe for the picking.

You can keep laughing, but just remember to wake up. Several hundred LCH, Tejas, and Dhanush are needed yesterday to deal with the Chinese and TSP simultaneously.


Please tell me, why you think India wont request foreign arms if we are fighting a 4-6 week existential war! What happens after the magic 4-6 weeks time is over? We just stop fighting and say sorry-sorry? And what a rubbish start to a 6 week war of annihilation by the Chinese.. PLA lady boys swinging clubs? :rotfl: Here I was expecting ride of the valkyries stuff after watching all their PR videos! :rotfl:

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ldev » 28 May 2020 06:33

fanne wrote:Chinese missile forces is the only trump card. They can hit deep and effect Indian population center using shorter range missile. For us to respond in kind (and do not have to, we can hit targets in Tibet using short range missiles), we will have to use IRBM/ICBM which would be many times costlier than SRBM.


Consider the escalation ladder:

Artillery and infantry at the border - both sides

Armor (Indian tanks) vs Chinese helicopter gunships

A preemptive Chinese missile attack on all Indian airfields in the North and East from Avantipur to Tezpur - runway denial being the objective. China has about a 1000 short range ballistic missiles DF-15s and DF-16s so they can keep this up for days or even weeks.

India responds with Brahmos but because of it's range it can only reach Chinese targets in Tibet.

Stalemate.

To cause an equivalent amount of pain to China by targeting it's primary bases (located in or around population centers) India has to reach the South China Sea to launch ship launched Brahmos missiles. For India and Indians such a war will be a very real experience with damage and destruction around population centers. For China it will be a pinprick on a distant border thousands of kilometers from their centers of commerce, industry and power.

Agni 3, 4 and 5 have the range but are nuclear missiles and limited in numbers so cannot be used for a conventional role.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Mort Walker » 28 May 2020 06:43

sudeepj wrote:Please tell me, why you think India wont request foreign arms if we are fighting a 4-6 week existential war! What happens after the magic 4-6 weeks time is over? We just stop fighting and say sorry-sorry? And what a rubbish start to a 6 week war of annihilation by the Chinese.. PLA lady boys swinging clubs? :rotfl: Here I was expecting ride of the valkyries stuff after watching all their PR videos! :rotfl:


There is NO guarantee of foreign arms, ammunition or even spare parts. Especially if the international community decides to impose an arms embargo on both India and China after a couple of weeks. China's production capacity of weapon systems, no matter how flimsy, exists and can ramp up quickly. India's indigenous weapon systems exist only on paper. After 4-6 weeks India gives up the fight after being annihilated. Either that or opt to go nuclear. If the Chinese build up enough stand-off weapons and aircraft, it becomes very difficult to sustain a counter offensive if the Chinese decide to occupy Sikkim and Arunachal Pradesh even after taking significant losses of men and material.

Please cut the bluster and come down to earth. It sounds too much like Pakis boasting.
Last edited by Mort Walker on 28 May 2020 06:44, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby fanne » 28 May 2020 06:44

that's what I am saying. But IRBMs/SRBM with conventional weapon are not that useful. Can carry at most a 1-2 ton conventional weapon, and if they are off by even 50 Meters from a hardened target, it will fail its mission. Now we both have New clear detergent so perhaps the ladder wont go that far. Our Brahmos with S curve capability can destroy off axis PLAA and PLAF bases (few and far in between). They will get hurt much much more in missile shooting war provided we also have it in 1000s. Do we? Perhaps!!

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Mort Walker » 28 May 2020 06:47

^^^IF there were 1000+ Brahmos and delivery systems dedicated against Chinese aggression, then we would have a different story today.


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