India Border Watch: Security and Operations

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby yensoy » 30 May 2020 15:59

nam wrote:Gen sahib is now claiming that Chinis have positioned themselves on the mountains above the Galwan valley.
It is 3-4 KM from LAC towards the Shyok river junction. How does PLAN provide supplies to these positions without a proper road? that is not visible in satellite images? 4 KM is not near.
Where are the tents or bunkers for these positions?

Hard to believe. These mountains are sheer cliffs and the river is a deep gorge. Besides the monumental difficulty of reaching them, there is the threat of landslides. And what good will it accomplish other than guard their picnic spot? BTW the bend in the river where they are camped would actually be a fantastic hike & picnic spot.

BTW there are some safe spots on the northern bank of Galwan where we could position a gun, maybe permanently. These are the places with mature trees; the fact that there are trees would indicate the low probability of a landslide affecting that area.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karna » 30 May 2020 17:14

Suresh S wrote:Ultimately wars are won by men not machines. That south shore of pangong tso is sacred ground for Indian army. Major shaitan singh and 13th Kumaon and charlie company,s soul is resting there.Man simply the memory of the major,s name brings tears and goose bumps .


True that. Hence it is important to note the key personnel leading this task both Militarily and Diplomatically on the ground.

S Jaishankar : Current Ext Affairs.He was India's longest serving ambassador to Chinis and will lead the diplomatic offensive. In 2013 he was responsible in ending Chinis intrusion into Ladakh’s Depsang Plains.

Lt.Gen Y.K Joshi : If the balloon does goes up he as GOC-C of Northern Command will be tasked to evict the Chinis if they have intruded in our territory . Just before he took over the Northern Command, he was GOC of XIV Corps responsible for Defence of Ladakh. Interestingly he has also served as a Defence Attache in Beijing.

In these two we have foremost expert about Chinis who can guide current GOV.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby vishvak » 30 May 2020 17:40

Considering China's appetite for geo engineering and strategic planning this must be opposed before shyt is allowed to hit fan.

And this includes loose talk on natural resources like river flow and such as boundary markers just pointing out what Chinese are upto.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Ashokk » 30 May 2020 19:07

Gauray Arya talking to Lt.Gen Y.K Joshi, current GOC-C Northern Command, as part of the "Patriot" program in 2019.
Starts at 13:45

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby chola » 30 May 2020 19:33

Sridhar K wrote:Yes they can but on normal days when China is behaving well, it will have an impact on Nepal while China continues to make money either way through tourist. China being unhappy with the Lipulekh road, also triggered an unhappy Nepal to lay claim on the region.


Let's face it, roads and infrastructure will feel threatening to either side going forward. To be truthful, this has been the dynamic since Doklam. Even if we defuse this thing today it will still build up next time.

It can only be resolved by war.

This is the best time for it with the world against Cheen for the Wuhan virus. But this is a closing window. Even now countries like Germany, South Korea and Singapore are negotiating connections to Cheen because of economics.

We can't have every road and bunker raise war tension again and again for perpetuity. It has to be settled now or later. We might not be able to choose at a later time.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby pratik » 30 May 2020 19:52

https://twitter.com/CRolanova/status/1265262359486095360?s=20

I am trying to find the info on Pangong lake and chinese presence on our soil. As per the above tweet, If chinese are sitting at Finger-4/5 than it is almost 43 km incursion in our area.

- Is the road on northern edge of the lake between Finger-1 to Finger-8 ours?


Thank you.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby fanne » 30 May 2020 20:01

Welcome to BR!!

Karna wrote:
Suresh S wrote:Ultimately wars are won by men not machines. That south shore of pangong tso is sacred ground for Indian army. Major shaitan singh and 13th Kumaon and charlie company,s soul is resting there.Man simply the memory of the major,s name brings tears and goose bumps .


True that. Hence it is important to note the key personnel leading this task both Militarily and Diplomatically on the ground.

S Jaishankar : Current Ext Affairs.He was India's longest serving ambassador to Chinis and will lead the diplomatic offensive. In 2013 he was responsible in ending Chinis intrusion into Ladakh’s Depsang Plains.

Lt.Gen Y.K Joshi : If the balloon does goes up he as GOC-C of Northern Command will be tasked to evict the Chinis if they have intruded in our territory . Just before he took over the Northern Command, he was GOC of XIV Corps responsible for Defence of Ladakh. Interestingly he has also served as a Defence Attache in Beijing.

In these two we have foremost expert about Chinis who can guide current GOV.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby chetak » 30 May 2020 20:11

^^^^^^^

@pratik


Jeff M. Smith@Cold_Peace_·21h
UPDATE on the China-India border standoff. I've seen some commercial satellite images supporting what @Iyervval and others have claimed: save for a small ingress near the Galwan river—from which they were evicted mid-month—the PLA isn't camped anywhere on India's side of the LAC.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby fanne » 30 May 2020 20:15

We have the best person as GOC to lead this war. Experienced, already successfully won 1 war (Kargil), in similar mountainous war. Does the Chinese have a equivalent general leading or he is a CPC appointee? Most (maybe all) of the men and officer on Indian side have served under fire (all RR posting in JK has its benefit, it is not just a money pit as tsp would have had believe, it gives us men who have been forged in battle field).
All of these will count in the current standoff, should the balloon go up.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby fanne » 30 May 2020 20:17

Ashokk wrote:Gauray Arya talking to Lt.Gen Y.K Joshi, current GOC-C Northern Command, as part of the "Patriot" program in 2019.
Starts at 13:45


Guys please watch this, gives perspective on what is going on. Maybe not much value for army people, but if you are a civilian, it is educative. You will dhoti shibber less, at least not because of excel sheet that says china gdp is x times our. I think just out of courtesy, when we kick these guys, we should kick them extra 4x (total 5x) so that the kick is felt x times over the whole GDP.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Deans » 30 May 2020 20:21

pratik wrote:https://twitter.com/CRolanova/status/1265262359486095360?s=20

I am trying to find the info on Pangong lake and chinese presence on our soil. As per the above tweet, If chinese are sitting at Finger-4/5 than it is almost 43 km incursion in our area.

- Is the road on northern edge of the lake between Finger-1 to Finger-8 ours?

Thank you.


Pre 1962, the border (where the Chinese were) was at finger 8 Ii.e. the western most finger of the north bank of the lake (which is the current
International border). Hence the western half of the lake was ours.
During the war, we were pushed back to the `L' junction of the lake and since then control only the shorter (North-South alignment) third of
the lake. The northern part corresponds to finger 4 (or 5).
The general understanding is that our permanent positions are on finger 1 (Merak) and the Chinese at finger 8 (Sirijap). Both patrols to upto
Finger 4. I understand the Chinese have constructed huts at the finger 4 area too.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Deans » 30 May 2020 20:28

fanne wrote:We have the best person as GOC to lead this war. Experienced, already successfully won 1 war (Kargil), in similar mountainous war. Does the Chinese have a equivalent general leading or he is a CPC appointee? Most (maybe all) of the men and officer on Indian side have served under fire (all RR posting in JK has its benefit, it is not just a money pit as tsp would have had believe, it gives us men who have been forged in battle field).
All of these will count in the current standoff, should the balloon go up.


There is no substitute for actual combat experience in similar conditions. Not just Gen. Joshi (a Kargil war hero), but pretty much all our formation commanders have served in RR, on the LOC and on the Siachen glacier.
It's unlikely that ANY Chinese officer in the area has served in Tibet for more than a few days - typically during carefully choreographed exercises where nothing goes wrong.
There is similarly a large difference between professional soldiers, many of whom are from the hills, who have served in these conditions, vs. the PLA soldiers, who last fired a weapon in anger in 1979, when they got their ass kicked by Vietnam.

Moreover both Kashmir and Pakistan fronts are quiet. No stone pelters in the valley, no heavy cross LOC firing. We can reinforce Ladakh quickly with some of 8th mountain division in Dras and 39th Infantry division, which is part of the Yol based IX corps.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby TKiran » 30 May 2020 21:49

Brahma Chellaney
@Chellaney
·

China moved troops to occupy areas where not only Indian and Chinese claim lines overlapped but also where there was no dispute. In other words, through a swift aggression planned months in advance, China has changed the status quo in both disputed and undisputed borderlands.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Chellaney/st ... 6205963264


Brahma Chellaney
@Chellaney
·

India was caught napping by China's rapid change of status quo in Ladakh, but efforts are on to downplay the aggression. Indian defense minister says, "Such things have happened in the past too." Let's be clear: The scale, intensity and number of concurrent incursions are unique.



Brahma Chellaney
@Chellaney
·

With the world preoccupied with the horrendous pandemic that China gifted the world, "Xi is taking bold steps on issues where he’s often faced international pushback, including Hong Kong, Taiwan, the South China Sea and a disputed border with India."

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby TKiran » 30 May 2020 22:02

^^^ Xi has become 10 times more powerful now than before the Wuhan Corona virus thing.

Expect him to threaten India, and more importantly he is determined to teach India a lesson if India tries to take back it's land. It's a repeat of 1962 in 2020.

India can't take back the land as they have put in permanent camps in our land.

There's a hope that if at all we initiate military action, it could be the end of Xi Jinping and the China as it is today. But India is not ready.
Last edited by TKiran on 30 May 2020 22:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karna » 30 May 2020 22:04

fanne wrote:Welcome to BR!!

Karna wrote:
True that. Hence it is important to note the key personnel leading this task both Militarily and Diplomatically on the ground.

S Jaishankar : Current Ext Affairs.He was India's longest serving ambassador to Chinis and will lead the diplomatic offensive. In 2013 he was responsible in ending Chinis intrusion into Ladakh’s Depsang Plains.

Lt.Gen Y.K Joshi : If the balloon does goes up he as GOC-C of Northern Command will be tasked to evict the Chinis if they have intruded in our territory . Just before he took over the Northern Command, he was GOC of XIV Corps responsible for Defence of Ladakh. Interestingly he has also served as a Defence Attache in Beijing.

In these two we have foremost expert about Chinis who can guide current GOV.


Thank You.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karna » 30 May 2020 22:12

TKiran wrote:Brahma Chellaney
@Chellaney
·

China moved troops to occupy areas where not only Indian and Chinese claim lines overlapped but also where there was no dispute. In other words, through a swift aggression planned months in advance, China has changed the status quo in both disputed and undisputed borderlands.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Chellaney/st ... 6205963264


Brahma Chellaney
@Chellaney
·

India was caught napping by China's rapid change of status quo in Ladakh, but efforts are on to downplay the aggression. Indian defense minister says, "Such things have happened in the past too." Let's be clear: The scale, intensity and number of concurrent incursions are unique.



Brahma Chellaney
@Chellaney
·

With the world preoccupied with the horrendous pandemic that China gifted the world, "Xi is taking bold steps on issues where he’s often faced international pushback, including Hong Kong, Taiwan, the South China Sea and a disputed border with India."


HK is done. No more one country two system. Taiwan will take time since currently they don't have enough capability to stare down US Navy. But once they do, Taiwan will be occupied.
But who is stopping them.Other than Trump who is been quite belligerent no world leader has used strong words against the Chinese leadership.
If India is hoping for support than we are mistaken. And if we get bullied today then we will be giving up the gains of 1967.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby VinodTK » 30 May 2020 22:13

^^^^ This is unfortunate, every time India is caught off guard. Nearly 2,000 years of history proves this.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ldev » 30 May 2020 22:18

TKiran wrote:Brahma Chellaney
@Chellaney
·

China moved troops to occupy areas where not only Indian and Chinese claim lines overlapped but also where there was no dispute. In other words, through a swift aggression planned months in advance, China has changed the status quo in both disputed and undisputed borderlands.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Chellaney/st ... 6205963264


Brahma Chellaney
@Chellaney
·

India was caught napping by China's rapid change of status quo in Ladakh, but efforts are on to downplay the aggression. Indian defense minister says, "Such things have happened in the past too." Let's be clear: The scale, intensity and number of concurrent incursions are unique.



Brahma Chellaney
@Chellaney
·

With the world preoccupied with the horrendous pandemic that China gifted the world, "Xi is taking bold steps on issues where he’s often faced international pushback, including Hong Kong, Taiwan, the South China Sea and a disputed border with India."


To illustrate what has happened on the northern bank of the Pangong Tso Lake:

Status quo as of early April:
Last Indian post at Finger/Spur 1. Last Chinese post at Finger/Spur 8.
Both sides patrolled between these two posts often getting into scuffles.

Status quo as of now:
China has set up posts and defensive bunkers at Finger/Spur 4 thereby preventing any Indian patrols beyond that point. Effectively they have said the entire area beyond Finger/Spur 4 is now ours. Let us now negotiate for the area between Finger 1 and Finger 4.

For the Galwan valley area it looks like the Chinese fear was that Indian forces there could breakout and threaten their road G219 and so they have preemptively occupied an area upto the confluence of the Galwan and Shyok rivers. And their fear is based on the new BRO road that connects Daulat Beg Oldi to the area around the Galwan valley thereby enabling India to move reinforcements on any part of the front and achieve a breakout towards G219 which is their lifeline to Pakistan via the Karakoram Pass.

The big unanswered question is how come China was able to implement this movement of troops and material without being detected by Indian forces until India was presented with a fait accompli. This is not very complimentary for India's ISR capabilites.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby fanne » 30 May 2020 22:36

Well since they have occupied areas that were clearly earmarked, we can do the same right? They planned for months and did that, we will do the same, but it cannot happen now or tomorrow. If it is ok to occupy areas that do is mine, I can occupy area that is yours. So we are in the start of the movie, it ahs many twist and turn, trust IA and GOI and sit back. Please do not do dhoti shibber, chaati pitna and please do not run excel models till then. No alarmist, hai hai we were like that onlee, My great grandfather got beaten up, as was my grand father and then my dad, yours may have been sir, not mine. So relax a bit and age age dekho hota hai kya.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karna » 30 May 2020 22:36

VinodTK wrote:^^^^ This is unfortunate, every time India is caught off guard. Nearly 2,000 years of history proves this.


But couple of instance in our Independent History where we took the initiative was Siachen and 1967. Cheen reaction to our infrastructure building isn't new. So why are we suprised with the enemy taking the initiative and stopping us. This should have been factor in.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby yensoy » 30 May 2020 22:44

pratik wrote:https://twitter.com/CRolanova/status/1265262359486095360?s=20
I am trying to find the info on Pangong lake and chinese presence on our soil. As per the above tweet, If chinese are sitting at Finger-4/5 than it is almost 43 km incursion in our area.
- Is the road on northern edge of the lake between Finger-1 to Finger-8 ours?
Thank you.


From some online research I have concluded that we are well established at Finger 4 (the "ITBP" sign) and patrol till the crest of the next finger like protrusion into the lake at the corner where the lake bends from NS to EW; and I think the Chinese patrol beyond that. They have a pucca road built till Sirijap from there.

Now we can claim the 8th finger and conclude that the Chinese have intruded but that has been the case from before. Sirijap actually has some habitations, so it's not some rapidly constructed Chinese bunker. The disputed roadway would basically be between Finger 4 and 5, and our interest is in keeping them from proceeding no further ahead from the turnaround they have constructed at 33 43 17.3, 78 45 48.8 so they don't have a clear optical view of the other end of the lake.

In that sense, our claim between the ITBP sign and the turnarond is not enforced by way of road. I hope we have pushed in a company or so of soldiers by way of the lake to camp out on the beach, while the road construction crew are chipping away at the rock, and that we have a pucca road till the above point by the end of summer. Maybe the skirmishes are happening by the beach here with the Chinese trying to further ingress and stop our road construction.

Likewise on the southern side. The LAC alignment in wikimapia seems to be correct because on the south side there is the flag meeting location which I presume isn't disputed, and there are some well known landmarks such as Camel's back, Table Top and a pass, with paths on either side connecting to paved roads in their respective administered areas. It doesn't look like there is much room for dispute, in fact there is more room for us to ingress into their side of LAC given how close to the LAC our roads run; we also seem to have a height advantage of sorts there.

The twitter image is patently false in the way it depicts the southern side balance. There is no "Chinese Forward Camp". That place is between 2 Indian villages Maan and Spangmik, well within Indian controlled territory that they will be truly besieged on all sides by us, including the water.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Mort Walker » 30 May 2020 22:45

With the world preoccupied with the horrendous pandemic that China gifted the world, "Xi is taking bold steps on issues where he’s often faced international pushback, including Hong Kong, Taiwan, the South China Sea and a disputed border with India."


Seems this was all done according to Chinese plan including spreading the virus.

The big unanswered question is how come China was able to implement this movement of troops and material without being detected by Indian forces until India was presented with a fait accompli. This is not very complimentary for India's ISR capabilites.


Because India has been busy fighting the Coronavirus and funds have been starved from the forces. What better time to plan this.
Last edited by Mort Walker on 30 May 2020 22:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby khan » 30 May 2020 22:48

Is there a link up the RM interview?

Also, I think India needs a *policy* to deal with this Chinese aggression and not simply be reacting to every salami slicing move.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby fanne » 30 May 2020 22:50

In this case, the current crisis, is a reaction of our infra buildup. Once complete (it is major done even now), but to be completed by 2022 (?) will give us a big advantage. We can also play the game equally well of going few km into well demarcated lane and say it's mine. Wasn't there news by one of the CO of the northern sector, that if China intrudes 100 places, we do 200 places. Of course you will never hear about our intrusion, we are just going to our land and hence no intrusion.
This is not to brush aside the fact that land is being lost. But this mentality that we will have to secure every inch of the land and place soldiers there, we will need twice the manpower now and then also we cannot stop them. For every 1 person guarding that land chini has to send 3 people to over power and move that marker. Instead we also should grab land as they do...pehaps we are doing it and the current reaction is because of that. As and when we develop infra (which is not 50 years into future, it is now and tomorrow), we will have more opportunity. This means we will loose some land somewhere, as we also concentrate our men in defensive and offensive positions while we (and the Chinese) leave other area un occupied. What is so hard to understand here and what is this rona dhona, that we have been like this getting kicked since ages?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby krishna_krishna » 30 May 2020 22:54

It is all over Twitter, it was a well thought out plan to transport troops and material in regular construction vehicles and not military to hide the movement , we can and should give it back in another sector close to Siachen that is the only language chinks understand

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karna » 30 May 2020 22:59

fanne wrote:In this case, the current crisis, is a reaction of our infra buildup. Once complete (it is major done even now), but to be completed by 2022 (?) will give us a big advantage. We can also play the game equally well of going few km into well demarcated lane and say it's mine. Wasn't there news by one of the CO of the northern sector, that if China intrudes 100 places, we do 200 places. Of course you will never hear about our intrusion, we are just going to our land and hence no intrusion.
This is not to brush aside the fact that land is being lost. But this mentality that we will have to secure every inch of the land and place soldiers there, we will need twice the manpower now and then also we cannot stop them. For every 1 person guarding that land chini has to send 3 people to over power and move that marker. Instead we also should grab land as they do...pehaps we are doing it and the current reaction is because of that. As and when we develop infra (which is not 50 years into future, it is now and tomorrow), we will have more opportunity. This means we will loose some land somewhere, as we also concentrate our men in defensive and offensive positions while we (and the Chinese) leave other area un occupied. What is so hard to understand here and what is this rona dhona, that we have been like this getting kicked since ages?


It was our current COAS as GOC-C of Eastern command last year

YT link : https://youtu.be/qWBPhuScbAs

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby yensoy » 30 May 2020 23:12

ldev wrote:To illustrate what has happened on the northern bank of the Pangong Tso Lake:
Status quo as of early April:
Last Indian post at Finger/Spur 1. Last Chinese post at Finger/Spur 8.
Both sides patrolled between these two posts often getting into scuffles.

I doubt it. The structures by the ITBP sign look quite permanent to me, and I doubt the Chinese were ever let on this side; likewise I am sure we were never let anywhere close to Sirijap. So basically we are only narrowing the ambiguity through whatever is happening; and clearly the Chinese aren't happy with some of our actions.

ldev wrote:For the Galwan valley area it looks like the Chinese fear was that Indian forces there could breakout and threaten their road G219 and so they have preemptively occupied an area upto the confluence of the Galwan and Shyok rivers.

It will be a brutal march upwards from the deep gorges of the Galwan valley to the Aksai Chin plateau and then onwards to G219. 60km at least, not counting the difficult terrain crisscrossed by deep gorges. I doubt their actions have anything to do with us threatening G219 through a land assault.

ldev wrote:And their fear is based on the new BRO road that connects Daulat Beg Oldi to the area around the Galwan valley thereby enabling India to move reinforcements on any part of the front and achieve a breakout towards G219 which is their lifeline to Pakistan via the Karakoram Pass.

The first part is something that we are learning - that the Chinese don't like the road to DBO just because of the logistical benefits it will provide us. However G219 is no lifeline to Pakistan. (Pakistan's lifeline is through transfer of funds, but that's a different story) The overland lifeline to Pakistan is via the Khunjerab Pass (not Karakoram pass, a common mistake) on the Karakoram highway, which goes up to Xinjiang, not down to Tibet. What on earth could Pakistan trade with Tibet?

ldev wrote:The big unanswered question is how come China was able to implement this movement of troops and material without being detected by Indian forces until India was presented with a fait accompli. This is not very complimentary for India's ISR capabilites.

Again, my hope is that we were the protagonists here and the Chinese are reacting and on the back foot.
Last edited by yensoy on 30 May 2020 23:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Deans » 30 May 2020 23:12

My understanding is that at the time of Doklam, when the Chinese also tried the same stunts in the `Finger' area on the north shore of Pangong Tso, we did not even have a permanent presence on Finger 1. Our patrols originated from Lukung rather than finger 1. We have done a lot since then including the Durbuk-Shyok-Murgo road. The other game changer in terms of our ability to deploy and supply troops is the Rohtang tunnel, which should be ready any time now and gives all weather access to the region from Himachal.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Deans » 30 May 2020 23:21

yensoy wrote:
ldev wrote:The big unanswered question is how come China was able to implement this movement of troops and material without being detected by Indian forces until India was presented with a fait accompli. This is not very complimentary for India's ISR capabilites.

Again, my hope is that we were the protagonists here and the Chinese are reacting and on the back foot.


Yensoy ji, I fully agree with your other points. On the above one, my view is that it is precisely because this was a small scale infiltration
by a foot patrol, that it was not detected. It would not be possible for any army to detect platoon sized units moving in that terrain.
for e.g. In similar but lower altitude terrain and with the benefit of incomparably better surveillance, the US has been unable to detect Taliban movements in Afghanistan. The weather would, quite often, make drones fairly useless.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karna » 30 May 2020 23:35

Abhijit Iyer-Mitra on Twitter

1n Another report, selectively quoting a CLASSIFIED & PROPRIETARY report prepared by my colleagues. Also carefully worded to confuse the reader & gets basic facts wrong. First up the LAC runs at the top of ridge 4. A road between 5 & 8 is nowhere in our side https://t.co/T3r2192owa

2n We claim till 8 & patrol till 6, they claim till 2. The gun emplacement in Pangong is a full 23 kilometres away from the ITBP camp at the base of finger 4. the gun emplacement has been there for a Whole Year since May 2019 (images courtesy @detresfa_ ) https://t.co/pF7r69x6jF

3n and includes anti aircraft artillery. What’s more there is NO ARTILLERY FACING GALWAN... 10 pieces facing Pangong & 10 BMP type vehicles & 12 tower field howitzers facing Gogra. I’m sorry @shashj IMINT doesn’t lie, sources do & journos frequently only see what they want to see

4n We’ve done sat scans on 80 Cm resolution satellites for these dates in May
Pangong 4th, 20th, 24th & 29th
Gogra/Hot Springs 16th 17th & 20th
Galwan 16th, 22nd & 27th
This is as real time as it gets & the rest of the story doesn’t CHECK OUT

5n we have also noticed an Indian buildup, commensurate & equal (and in my opinion reassuring) to the Chinese one - but being an Indian I refuse to compromise the locations, force levels or equipment of these installations. You can refer to the tweet below https://t.co/y65oScW2wh

6n covering all the alleged “invasion” areas Gogra, Pangong & Galwan. Note what few TENTS the Chinese are putting up are on THEIR SIDE

https://t.co/nkUgBh7SaG

7n foxhole has been covered by @detresfa_ 5 days back: 4 boats were spotted on the CHINESE SIDE & THEN THEY LEFT. You hardly expect them to have crossed over to occupy the Indian Bank west of the ridge but left their supply boats on the East
https://t.co/0UjuKsuyxl https://t.co/gG251w5Szx

8n & yes they did come deeper into Galwan than previously but were pushed back. There is however something serious that has happened WRT precious natural resources. I am not at liberty to disclose that & it is a serious breach of trust by the Chinese. https://t.co/KKNMbgo9DF

Varoon Shekhar
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 30 May 2020 23:36

Can anyone give a detailed, up to date map of Indian Ladakh, showing where India's actual borders extend, keeping in mind the 630 sq km reportedly lost( as mentioned by two posters here in BRF) to China since 2008? The area of Indian Ladakh is, by Wiki, 59,000 sq km. Does this figure need any adjustment.
Last edited by Varoon Shekhar on 30 May 2020 23:40, edited 1 time in total.

nam
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby nam » 30 May 2020 23:38

Given that both sides patrol up to their claim line, either of the side can trigger a standoff, by the patrol party simply refusing to leave once they are on the end of their claim line,

Pangong lake patrol paths in few areas are very narrow. Really narrow. If the patrol just sits there, you cannot do much, other than shooting them.

And this is the issue. We are not shooting, means you cannot forcefully evacuate them.

Instead of Chinese, we could have sat down. The Chinese will be facing the same problem, as us.

Regarding the troop build up, the Chinese have motor support, their Hummer knock off is available in this area.

nam
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby nam » 31 May 2020 00:04

-Our biggest, biggest drawback in a conflict with the Chini is that we don't get to fire first.
-The second drawback, is that we will be fighting to defend, while the Chinese will do a US style tv campaign.
-The third drawback, the volume of weapons for a standoff response. 155MM artillery, 100-150KM MBRL, Standoff A2G like Spice, Cheap BM. We are bloody short on everything.

This means we will agree for a ceasefire, as soon as it comes. So this allows the Chinese to launch a massive first wave attack and call for ceasefire.

I really hope we have made enough protective areas to absorb the first wave of BM/CM & standoff airstrikes.

The Paks will join in, as soon as there is some hint of losses on our end. With divided assets across two fronts, the Pak will at the minimum go attrition fight on LC.

vishvak
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby vishvak » 31 May 2020 00:21

The Paks will join in, as soon as there is some hint of losses on our end. With divided assets across two fronts, the Pak will at the minimum go attrition fight on LC.

Pakis need to be asked to behave politely each time Chinese soldiers beforehand, each and every time, when even a Chinese bunch of soldiers are seen at borders they aren't allowed to cross. That is how to make sure peace exist repeatedly.

Each time of such standoff the connected parties need to be told beforehand well and also those who let Chinese hide their misadventures need to be sent to see and measure borders first hand.

When Chinese entered Tibet the then PM wasn't sure until Chinese got to Lhasa the capital of Tibet but for good people of Tibet maybe some more diplomatic heft need to be spent.

ldev
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ldev » 31 May 2020 00:30

yensoy wrote:The first part is something that we are learning - that the Chinese don't like the road to DBO just because of the logistical benefits it will provide us. However G219 is no lifeline to Pakistan. (Pakistan's lifeline is through transfer of funds, but that's a different story) The overland lifeline to Pakistan is via the Khunjerab Pass (not Karakoram pass, a common mistake) on the Karakoram highway, which goes up to Xinjiang, not down to Tibet. What on earth could Pakistan trade with Tibet?


My bad, yes the Khunjerab Pass. Regardless G219 which is built through Aksai Chin is a lifeline for China as the Ngari airbase is located on it to the south east and to the north west it eventually joins up with the Karakoram Highway albeit much further up. Any possibility, however remote of India gaining a foothold on that highway will unnerve China, ground assault or a combination of a ground and airborne assault via the DBO airstrip.

I think that fear says something about China. If the positions were reversed, that is how they would posit an attack. Inspite of India's re-assurance after the recent split up of Jammu and Kashmir that India's position on it's external boundaries, specially Ladakh, does not change as a result, China clearly does not take India's assurance at face value.

karna wrote:There is however something serious that has happened WRT precious natural resources. I am not at liberty to disclose that & it is a serious breach of trust by the Chinese.

And that is why I wonder why India takes China's assurances at face value and then is surprised by China's breach of trust.
Last edited by ldev on 31 May 2020 00:40, edited 3 times in total.

Sravan
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Sravan » 31 May 2020 00:34

Not sure if this is from the current border. Very confused what's happening here: https://twitter.com/RajeshV75183874/status/1266798382590201859?s=20

Looks like the Indian soldier is protecting the soldier on the ground from being killed. However the soldiers surrounding them are also Indian. So it looks like one of the Chinese on the ground.


Here is another view. Looks like the Chinese are getting their ass kicked.
This is China army, this is unconscious man

https://twitter.com/TheRealRD12/status/1266794184343724042?s=20

Sravan
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Sravan » 31 May 2020 00:58

India also signed an island swap agreement with Australia. Like I said, we are opening second theater with them in the SCS.

Image

yensoy
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby yensoy » 31 May 2020 01:10

^^^^ I doubt we will take the fight to SCS (at least not substantially, probably SSBNs lurking there); however this is a clear denial of access to them in IOR. An amazingly strong defensive posture. Imagine they can't cross the dotted line connecting Cocos and Andamans.

nam
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby nam » 31 May 2020 01:12

Sravan wrote:Here is another view. Looks like the Chinese are getting their ass kicked.
This is China army, this is unconscious man

https://twitter.com/TheRealRD12/status/1266794184343724042?s=20


Looks like the guy holding the camera must be a Ladaki or AP guy, speaking English.

This is going to keep twitter people busy for few days...

I hope we got to keep the LSV. It looks quite good :rotfl:

Karna
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karna » 31 May 2020 01:15

Sravan wrote:India also signed an island swap agreement with Australia. Like I said, we are opening second theater with them in the SCS.

Image


It's a mutual use treaty where Aussies get access to A&N island. More likely listening and monitoring post. I doubt we have that many surface ships too open another theatre. But the Malacca strait is Cheens soft underbelly.


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