India Border Watch: Security and Operations

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nam
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby nam » 31 May 2020 15:56

The video you can make out is quite recent. The image, there is no date. It could be photo of an accident in the lake, which required them to be pulled out from the lake.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby AshishAcharya » 31 May 2020 16:07

nam wrote:The video you can make out is quite recent. The image, there is no date. It could be photo of an accident in the lake, which required them to be pulled out from the lake.


yes I have searched through many chinese social media and they are saying that our soldiers fell near a lake and their PLA rescued it seeing wounded soldiers. And then some are saying that our 72 soldiers were injured (their source was kashmir wala-paki propaganga fiction news website :rotfl: ).

But what worries me is that if it indeed was a accident then why are our soldiers tied up?

edit:-
Now that I have looked at it more closely, Chinese soldiers are wearing masks. So I think it's quite recent. And I believe it may be initial confrontation instigated by the Chinese which was replied in kind with the beating up of the PLA soldier in that video
Last edited by AshishAcharya on 31 May 2020 16:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby jpremnath » 31 May 2020 16:13

I think these are the 5 that were reported to be 'detained' by the Chinese in early may when the scuffles started. They dont look like someone dragged out of water.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya_V » 31 May 2020 16:32

Can we 2 separate threads, while especially NRI's like to concentrate on the LAC, LOC is also hot and Pakis are being killed, we should be able to discuss that also, LAC while we prepare for the worst it is right now maximum involving fist fights.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya_V » 31 May 2020 16:44

Guys China and Nepal are distractions, this is where the main threat is coming from

[url]Terror launch pads in PoK 'full', but our response hard & punishing: Lt Gen Dhillon - The Economic Times https://m.economictimes.com/news/defenc ... 192742.cms[/url]

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby nam » 31 May 2020 16:57

AshishAcharya wrote:But what worries me is that if it indeed was a accident then why are our soldiers tied up?


How do you pull out people from the water, if they are unconscious? They would be wearing life vest, so they won't drown. The water is cold, you cannot swim and drag the person on to the banks.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby nam » 31 May 2020 17:02

I am now getting convinced, we will end up with a two front war. When, I don't know and what will trigger it, cannot say.

Paks as usual will take wrong lessons from any India- China standoffs. There will be PLA officers who would like to teach us a lesson.

The Chinese will feed lot of arms to Pak to keep us occupied on the Western front and dividing our resources. There will be two front, if Pak & China feel they have a chance of victory in a short, may be 2-3 week war.

We need to develop capabilities to degrade Pak fighting capability as much as possible. Otherwise we are walking in to a two front war. Our adversaries will not give a long time to prepare.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby arshyam » 31 May 2020 17:23

Aditya_V wrote:Can we 2 separate threads, while especially NRI's like to concentrate on the LAC, LOC is also hot and Pakis are being killed, we should be able to discuss that also, LAC while we prepare for the worst it is right now maximum involving fist fights.

I am no NRI and am still interested in what's going on at the LAC. So are a bunch of other posters here, so please lay off the generalization in order to make your point. Yes, the LoC is hot, but the longer game is on the LAC. In fact, insights about what's going in the LoC can be tied into happenings on the LAC - so having a common thread is good. And no one is stopping anyone from talking about LoC - heck, we can even discuss the BD or the Myanmar border on this thread - they are not OT. So, please do share info on what's happening on the LoC.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby manjgu » 31 May 2020 17:42

both LOC / LAC are borders..right??

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby manjgu » 31 May 2020 17:43

2 - 3 weeks war !!! no boss ..i dont see anything more than 3 to 4 days if its a India Pak China thingy .. USA will step in for sure...

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby arshyam » 31 May 2020 17:48

Deans wrote:
arshyam wrote:Is this road new? So the only access to DBO earlier was via Sasoma - Saser La - Murgo? The former route seems quite long for it to have been built in a couple of years.

But if this road is indeed newly built, then one can understand the Chinese angst - we building alternative routes that can enable faster logistics and reinforce our hold on SSN.


The road was open (along its entire length) only last Oct. After which, when winter sent in, there was nothing the Chinese could do to show their
displeasure. The previous route was not just longer, but not available all year. Apart from giving us the ability to rapidly reinforce Daulat Beg Oldi, we can also monitor the LAC from Murgo to Shyok.

Thanks sir, that's quite a significant change then that didn't get the importance it deserved here (or I probably missed it). A good 100+ km of the LAC is now easily accessible by us, no wonder the Chinese got spooked. Maybe the snows have melted only now that they could do something about it.

Looking at Google maps, these distances are not trivial (crow-flying distance in parantheses):
- Durbuk-Murgo: 159km, 5h 56m (107km) - this is the newly opened route
- Leh-Murgo (via Khardung La, Sasoma and Saser La): 225km, 7h 48m (104km)
- Leh-Murgo (via Durbuk): 266km, 8h, 19m (149km)
- Murgo-DBO: 56km, 2h 17m (38km)

The significance of the newer route via Durbuk seems to be that it is also faster - 41 extra kilometers when coming from Leh, but only an extra 30 min travel time. Of course, I don't know how accurate G maps would be here, but the satellite view does indicate an easier terrain.

G Maps and Wikimapia indicate the road goes all the way to the Karakoram pass, but I don't see anything on the satellite. Hopefully, there is one, or is under construction with top priority. Keep building!

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby fanne » 31 May 2020 18:53

it is a well coordinated move, china is director (does not matter if it is TSP or both combined, but TSP habit of being on the knees may indicate Chinese leadership), Nepal is also getting involved, Maldives will be with us and perhaps Sri Lanka is still in India camp (the Chinese loving president lost few years ago but many elections have happened since then)...points to Chinese involvement.
It is a two front war, TSP has moved regular units (drapr007 tweets), it has been mobilizing. Look like Chinese are as well.
Overall we are not in a bad position.
The easiest is IN, they are well prepared and armed. The SSN are on deterrent patrol. An extra Aircraft carrier may not make that much of a difference (one could be good at A/N, while VIC takes care of Arabian sea), but Chinese are not in position to send a large flotilla. Their sub can be a problem, but that is nature of the beast. Our P8I is there, can we had 2x or 3x the number, yes, but not much difference).
IA similarly is in good shape. It has all war reserves checked, 2-3 extra mountain divisions raised in last few years, road connectivity built up where necessary. Extra artillery or tanks would always help but situation is manageable. Now it is upto Mahakali!!
IAF is short (though not in bad position overall). Their Rafale fetish has cost us. An extra 150 fighters would have made good, even if they were not cutting edge (and without giving up on Rafale, but to my small mind, I see just to get Rafale, IAF chose not to pick other less capable fighters). The 21 Mig 29 founded few years ago and eagerly lapped, or Mig 27 perhaps fully digitized or some 60 LCA flying, or few AEW or even AWAVS...who knows what. Perhaps even some quick upgrades to SU 30MKIs, giving them a sure shot edge in AA, without any dobt kind of a edge, the one currently Rafale would have). But IAF has just practiced 10,000 sorties a day, that kind of momentum will kill any enemy.
It is two front war. Let's go with that assumption, actually it is not an assumption any more. Now we cant wait for anything, only quick addition seams to be some 8-9 Rafale. Perhaps they can come a month or two sooner. AA missile, A/G smart munitions, EW, and above all men will win this war.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Manish_Sharma » 31 May 2020 19:03


Yesterday on aaj tak General V.K. Singh gave interview to Sweta Singh.
AT 8:30 of Video He said "...when I was army chief there were 72 projects targets in road and bridge making now 99% have been completed, only 1 road of 59 km stretch is left..." (it's paraphrased)
_________________________

TWITTER

DrApr007:

#BREAKING : Amid heightened tensions between 2 armies in Ladakh,PLA has urged for a commander-level dialogue to reduce the tension.We will welcome any dialogue but we will not get into ur deception.Actually they hv surprised after quick deployment of IA.They r just borrowing time

https://twitter.com/drapr007/status/126 ... 27105?s=19

Heavy air activity on western border. Multiple enemy AWACS & jets are airborne. CAPs by IAF along the IB in J&K, Punjab & Rajsthan.

https://twitter.com/drapr007/status/126 ... 48480?s=19
Last edited by Manish_Sharma on 31 May 2020 22:50, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Ashokk » 31 May 2020 19:04

Indian Army Rubbishes Viral Video of 'Violent Clashes' With Chinese Troops in Ladakh
The Indian Army has categorically rejected the authenticity of a viral video claiming that Indian and Chinese troops have once again become embroiled in an intense fight in the contested Ladakh region. The military says that attempts to link it with the situation on the northern borders is "malafide".

"Currently no violence is happening. Differences are being addressed through interaction between military commanders, guided by established protocols on management of borders between the two countries", the Indian Army said after a video started making the rounds on social media.

The two-minute video shared by Twitter user Senge Hasnan Sering purportedly showed Indian soldiers thrashing People's Liberation Army troops with rods and other tools by a lake.

The video of this allegedly fresh clash comes days after an enormous fight erupted between the troops of the two countries at 14,000 ft near glacial lake Pangong Tso on 5 May. During the fight, seven Indian troops were badly injured and evacuated to a base hospital.
"We strongly condemn attempts to sensationalise issues impacting national security. The media is requested not to air visuals that are likely to vitiate the current situation on the borders", the Indian Army said.

The escalating build-up along the 4,057-kilometre loosely demarcated Line of Actual Control has turned into the most serious confrontation between the two countries since the 73-day Doklam standoff in 2017.

China claimed that Indian troops had started to build defence infrastructure on the Chinese side of the border which was categorically denied by India. Defence sources in New Delhi said that it is China which is laying a road in the Finger area (Ladakh) which is not acceptable to India.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby abhik » 31 May 2020 19:36

The Indian Army has categorically rejected the authenticity of a viral video

What does that mean exactly - Is this some bollywood production? Obviously it was leaked by IA or ITBP personnel, looks like GOI is trying to cool things down.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby kit » 31 May 2020 19:49

fanne wrote:it is a well coordinated move, china is director (does not matter if it is TSP or both combined, but TSP habit of being on the knees may indicate Chinese leadership), Nepal is also getting involved, Maldives will be with us and perhaps Sri Lanka is still in India camp (the Chinese loving president lost few years ago but many elections have happened since then)...points to Chinese involvement.
It is a two front war, TSP has moved regular units (drapr007 tweets), it has been mobilizing. Look like Chinese are as well.
Overall we are not in a bad position.
The easiest is IN, they are well prepared and armed. The SSN are on deterrent patrol. An extra Aircraft carrier may not make that much of a difference (one could be good at A/N, while VIC takes care of Arabian sea), but Chinese are not in position to send a large flotilla. Their sub can be a problem, but that is nature of the beast. Our P8I is there, can we had 2x or 3x the number, yes, but not much difference).
IA similarly is in good shape. It has all war reserves checked, 2-3 extra mountain divisions raised in last few years, road connectivity built up where necessary. Extra artillery or tanks would always help but situation is manageable. Now it is upto Mahakali!!
IAF is short (though not in bad position overall). Their Rafale fetish has cost us. An extra 150 fighters would have made good, even if they were not cutting edge (and without giving up on Rafale, but to my small mind, I see just to get Rafale, IAF chose not to pick other less capable fighters). The 21 Mig 29 founded few years ago and eagerly lapped, or Mig 27 perhaps fully digitized or some 60 LCA flying, or few AEW or even AWAVS...who knows what. Perhaps even some quick upgrades to SU 30MKIs, giving them a sure shot edge in AA, without any dobt kind of a edge, the one currently Rafale would have). But IAF has just practiced 10,000 sorties a day, that kind of momentum will kill any enemy.
It is two front war. Let's go with that assumption, actually it is not an assumption any more. Now we cant wait for anything, only quick addition seams to be some 8-9 Rafale. Perhaps they can come a month or two sooner. AA missile, A/G smart munitions, EW, and above all men will win this war.



Now where is that S400 .. maybe ask uncle for a few THAAD / Patriot batteries "rental" for the western front !!

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karna » 31 May 2020 19:50

fanne wrote:it is a well coordinated move, china is director (does not matter if it is TSP or both combined, but TSP habit of being on the knees may indicate Chinese leadership), Nepal is also getting involved, Maldives will be with us and perhaps Sri Lanka is still in India camp (the Chinese loving president lost few years ago but many elections have happened since then)...points to Chinese involvement.


1. There is a pattern to all this. First Sri Lanka was turned by allowing their Subs to be docked in our backyard. We managed to reverse that. The current PM of Sri Lanka was the then President who invited billion dollars of cheen investment and got in debt

2. Same was with Maldives. We had a hostile government towards India few yrs back before we managed to reverse it. There are reports of cheen building artificial island in Maldives which can be used as a Listening post.

3. Same playbook is been used in Nepal. Nationalist sentiments are been fanned against India. Alteration of IB will have a serious impact on our relationship but Nepal is in a hurry to pass it through. What's stopping China to offer Nepal to become it's protectorate state.

4. Same was tried couple of years in Bhutan, when they had national elections and anti India sentiments were been fanned as an occupier of Doklham plateau.
fanne wrote:It is a two front war, TSP has moved regular units (drapr007 tweets), it has been mobilizing. Look like Chinese are as well.
Overall we are not in a bad position.


It will always be a two front war. Cheen wants to be the middle kingdom and sees India as a threat to this dream. Cheen believes it has time of its side and will go along maintaining the status quo until it can change the status quo. Look at HK. In 2 decades the 2 system is dead. And may be in another 2 decades Taiwan as well.

George Fernandes isn't given enough credit to have the gumption to say it aloud that in the long run Cheen is the biggest enemy.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ldev » 31 May 2020 19:57

Karna wrote:It will always be a two front war. Cheen wants to be the middle kingdom and sees India as a threat to this dream. Cheen believes it has time of its side and will go along maintaining the status quo until it can change the status quo. Look at HK. In 2 decades the 2 system is dead. And may be in another 2 decades Taiwan as well.

That is why I believe that the current policy of no arms within 2 kms of the border is foolish. China is just biding it's time to use the no arms policy to gradually over the years takeover Indian territory literally without firing a shot. And instead of proudly proclaiming as some journalists do by saying "no bullet has been fired on the India China border for the last 22 years or whatever number of years", the actual story is that China has tactically used that agreement to takeover Indian territory. At least if Chinese patrols knew that they would come under fire if they transgressed beyond a point, they would be careful about coming into disputed territory and taking it over.

George Fernandes isn't given enough credit to have the gumption to say it aloud that in the long run Cheen is the biggest enemy.


+100
That quote by him was 22 years ago. Has India done enough since then to address the China threat?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby darshan » 31 May 2020 20:04

In my opinion, there is a need to continue to state the obvious. May be continued reminder would bring changes. And, any new lurkers need keywords to investigate further and change their viewpoints.

* nehru, Congress, UPA(manmohan) responsible
* communists in India had openly sided with Chinese but weren't thrown into jails for treason by nehru and his clan
* everyone involved from political entities to PSUs to military decision makers for not taking care of indigenous products


I still haven't seen any news of industry ramping up from their virus diversion. Medical logistics need to be maintained in border regions. Lot of it would have been diverted due to cyclone and Chinese virus.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby YashG » 31 May 2020 20:46

Perhaps a part here is also Xi Jinping trying to show down Modi leadership. Corona challenge has been tough enough for country - central govt. is having the toughest time of its life. The Chinese challenge only makes it difficult for Modi to address his core constituency - tough, nationalistic, jingoes etc. Govt really might be trying to play down the incursions, because its not easy to address it in this tough time - risks alienating the nationalistic base. Xi also wants to extract his piece of meat - some bargain at WHO or otherwise - for sure! But all in all, I still hope Modi can outplay Xi here.
Modi is far too sharp.
Chinese politics is linear but Indian politics is too non-linear - just like global diplomacy.
Xi has played objectively opportune but subjectively stupid move. Modi could, should & I hope can do better.

I really do hope Modi has some trick up his sleeve.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Arima » 31 May 2020 21:03

ldev wrote:
Karna wrote:It will always be a two front war. Cheen wants to be the middle kingdom and sees India as a threat to this dream. Cheen believes it has time of its side and will go along maintaining the status quo until it can change the status quo. Look at HK. In 2 decades the 2 system is dead. And may be in another 2 decades Taiwan as well.

That is why I believe that the current policy of no arms within 2 kms of the border is foolish. China is just biding it's time to use the no arms policy to gradually over the years takeover Indian territory literally without firing a shot. And instead of proudly proclaiming as some journalists do by saying "no bullet has been fired on the India China border for the last 22 years or whatever number of years", the actual story is that China has tactically used that agreement to takeover Indian territory. At least if Chinese patrols knew that they would come under fire if they transgressed beyond a point, they would be careful about coming into disputed territory and taking it over.

George Fernandes isn't given enough credit to have the gumption to say it aloud that in the long run Cheen is the biggest enemy.


+100
That quote by him was 22 years ago. Has India done enough since then to address the China threat?



this 2 km no fire zone is based on which line decided at what point in time? the way salami slicing has happened, 2 kms limit may have gone all together.
did any agreement happened in 1962 post war??

can our govt call spade as spade and start some limited action in this non 2kms zone??

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby fanne » 31 May 2020 21:17

My amateurish take on the situation in 1962 and now (2020). I am no expert like Rohit Vats and maybe totally off the mark
In 1962 following thing happened
- Nehru laid out a policy to not give up any inch of land (same as 2020). Trying to save every inch thins out the force and makes it vulnerable should the Chinese suddenly decide to attack
- We were not ready to start, then the initiative is with the Chinese, they can choose to attack at the most appropriate time (same as 2020)
- There were literally small skirmishes leading to the war in October 1962, some were as early as 1959, some were fist cuffs , some bullets (same as now, no bullets though)
-Indian approach was to encircle Chinese advances and give them a fait-accomply to move back which they did on some occasion (same as 2020 approach or is it?)
-The focus on previous years was less spending on defense and more on economics to a level where defense could have used little more funds (same as 2020)
- The assumption from Indian side was that war will not happen (somewhat same as 2020, not privy to real govt thinking)
- When the final war happened at two of the bloodiest battle, Chinese took the unexpected road (while we were guarding the obvious bridges and the hill approach), they surprised and overwhelmed us. In the current lake fist-cuff, they have trekked a mountainous path to surprise us (but hey not currently at war).
- They had very large 5th columnist in India (same as 2020)
What is different
- In 1962 we had ill prepared 2 division worth of armed men (still a lot), Chinese moved a lot number than this in the previous months and used man wave like tactics in Ladhak and superior maneuverability in Arunachal. Now we have 13 division worth of well armed, fully acclimatized soldiers, while Chinese have 3 brigade (best 1 to 1.5 division). Sure they can perhaps bring 10-15 division from planes
- IAF is going to be used, it was not used in 1962. Chinese will also use their air force. We should have local superiority but PAF scrambling will dent our numerical superiority
- We have caught up on the infra front (or there abouts), this should help
- I hope when we escalate, we are not making an assumption that it will not turn into a full fledged war.

What is our responsibility? that is mango man
- The h@r@mis in India will shout govt lost this, chinis intruded there, forcing GOI to spread IA thin or take non optimal decision. They perhaps have political goals (Shooklaw ji, dimwit gandi) or ideological (MIM, communist) or some for personal. I hope the over smart, over educated and over intelligent junta does not run around like headless chicken advancing agenda of these people. Or so I can hope. You can never be very sure from over intelligent people.
Trust this GOI. The people here are not here to rule but to serve (as how congi lost 640 sq km few years ago to china and did not bother to inform, nor did it media friends who are going in overdrive right now). They will not give what is ours and if they loose it, will take it back at the appropriate time and place of our choosing. By constantly being over smart, we only force the govt to do something rash. Our two neighbors have ganged up and the time is to do things by cold calculation and not in rush.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby fanne » 31 May 2020 21:20

the other request is for moderators, please let this be bharat rakshak foremost and not all opinion are sacred and allow open or hidden anti India propaganda. Please ban (even for day, week, month...not permanent), where you see handles getting activated all of a sudden or some over intelligent people who will not see reason.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby darshan » 31 May 2020 21:34

12,000 workers to be moved in special trains to complete vital infrastructure projects near China border amidst military standoff: Report

The current stand-off between India and China began on May 5-6 and has been continuing all along the LAC up to Sikkim.
https://www.opindia.com/2020/05/china-b ... al-trains/


Spy network using illegal VOIP exchange to gather information on Indian Army’s movement busted in Mumbai

The illegal VOIP exchange received calls from Pakistan which were converted to local numbers and routed to numbers in Kashmir and Ladakh

https://www.opindia.com/2020/05/spy-net ... in-mumbai/
Last edited by darshan on 31 May 2020 21:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby khan » 31 May 2020 21:48

darshan wrote:
12,000 workers to be moved in special trains to complete vital infrastructure projects near China border amidst military standoff: Report

The current stand-off between India and China began on May 5-6 and has been continuing all along the LAC up to Sikkim.
https://www.opindia.com/2020/05/china-b ... al-trains/

Looks like they decided to press the pedal on the infrastructure development.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby abhik » 31 May 2020 21:54

kit wrote:Now where is that S400 .. maybe ask uncle for a few THAAD / Patriot batteries "rental" for the western front !!

A question for the gurus, does S-400 actually have credible point/area defence ballistic defence capabilities? Any links would be appreciated TIA.

Anyways why will unkil send THAAD/Patriot batteries after we sign a 5+billion USD check to Pootin (in spite of them asking us not to).

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby darshan » 31 May 2020 22:07

Question should be more asked towards where's the indigenous system?

No uncle is going to have any system available to send to India.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Mort Walker » 31 May 2020 22:09

The P-8I being used near the LAC indicates India may have taken delivery of 4 more in the last couple of months. They were supposed to be delivered in the first quarter of calendar year 2020. It indicates the high resolution Raytheon AN/APY-10 radar has been adapted to use in the Himalayan areas near the LAC, just as it was used in 2017 during Doklam standoff.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Mort Walker » 31 May 2020 22:18

darshan wrote:Question should be more asked towards where's the indigenous system?

No uncle is going to have any system available to send to India.


The situation is beginning to look difficult, if not desperate. India can ill afford a two front war as it will setback development for a decade. GoI may opt for what the current strategy is, keep the PLA engaged in negotiations, even though they make incursions across the LAC; and tackle TSP who is pushing terrorists in on the west.

To take on both the PLA and TSP between now and winter, India will have to go to the US for massive deliveries of the vast excess inventory of fighters, helos and transport aircraft. India's domestic military production never received the investment it needed on a war footing over the last 6 years. Either that or move up the escalation ladder with the PLA.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby darshan » 31 May 2020 22:25

Uncle can do many things like GE engines, howitzer ecosystem, AWACS, more P-8s, helos, thermal imagers, javelins, many trinklets for special forces etc.

Though Uncle is most likely going to stay in watch and observe mode. It's the same Uncle that had no issue with Chinese killing US soldiers in Korean war. Uncle probably has no desire to kill Chinese if that makes India much more powerful. Uncle would continue to look for ways where it can kill Chinese but not unleash India.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby khan » 31 May 2020 22:35

There is a lot of dhoti shivering about 2 front War. IMO, the following two things haven’t changed:

1. India is perfectly capable of fighting a 2 front defensive war while holding its own and seriously mauling China & eliminating Pakistan’s war fighting capability.

2. These periodic tensions are good because they focus the mind on the national security aspect of things.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby SriKumar » 31 May 2020 22:41

Couple of comments:
1. In 1962, the main reverses were in Arunachal Pradesh, primarily in the Thag La/Tawang area and at the eastern-most tip (Kameng sector). In Ladakh area, IA held the line and gave battle to the Chinese and were in a good position, not over-run by China. In 1962, India was ill-prepared both politically and militarily. Nehru was not exptecting an actual war, and his bad relations with military (especially his public rebuke of Gen. Thimayya when the Chinese premir was in India just 2-3 years prior) is well known. Soldiers from plains who were not aclamatized were rushed to heights, and fought while sick, and with poor armament (arms are important even if some hold that it is men who win the battle.). Situation now is very different. Especially now, coming after Dokalam where things could have easily escalated to a full-blown war (even if it did not). My thought is that this govt. gamed a scenario where Dokalam would escalate to a full-blown war, so plans/options are already in place.
2. If Pakistan tries any funny stuff in LoC, they better be prepared to receive the hospitality of Indian Navy at their Karachi harbor and potentially Gwadar. Balakot air raid was a major escalation by India in response to a terrorist attack. India went beyond army action (as before where IA hit 8+ terror camps in PoK) and involved IAF this time. Pakistani Army action this time means everything is on the table, including Karachi and Gwadar.
3. India has talked about reclaiming PoK in the recent times (Amit Shah made a statement in PArliament a few months ago,IIRC) and Doordarshan weather reports over PoK coming after scrapping 370. These are clear signals to the other parties (Pakistan/China) that India is getting serious. Atleast they could be interpretted (or mis-interpreted) that way. More than Pakistan, China will be concerned about PoK given their KArakorum Hwy road into PAkistan to Gwadar. Since both statements/actions came fron GoI, which is always very circumspect and rigorous about what it says publicly (not just this govt, all past govts have beenabsolutely deliberate about their statements relating to international matters), I am thinking those were not off-the-cuff statements and have some thought and planning behind them. In light of this, any potential escalation from any party in the LAC should not be seen as a surprise.
Last edited by SriKumar on 31 May 2020 22:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby yensoy » 31 May 2020 22:46

khan wrote:
darshan wrote:

Looks like they decided to press the pedal on the infrastructure development.

Waste of time. They should have been put on planes which are easier to mobilize, and can send them directly to wherever needed without having to interchange at multiple locations. It's not like there is way to get to Ladakh by train anyway.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby RKumar » 31 May 2020 22:51

Let’s be very clear there will be no uncle or aunt coming to our rescue, we are our own. There are some countries who will deliver the wares at X-time the normal price once we sign on the dotted lines. Providing wares in desperate time is how they win leverage over us. Still, we don’t buy local systems and continue with endless winter, summer, rain n dry trials.

Modi govt was pushing for infrastructure building since last 6 years and we see the results now. The same is with war reserves, which are being constantly used on our western borders. People can blame current government for many issues or non actions but least their heart is at the place.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby veejey » 31 May 2020 22:51


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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Mort Walker » 31 May 2020 22:52

khan wrote:There is a lot of dhoti shivering about 2 front War. IMO, the following two things haven’t changed:

1. India is perfectly capable of fighting a 2 front defensive war while holding its own and seriously mauling China & eliminating Pakistan’s war fighting capability.

2. These periodic tensions are good because they focus the mind on the national security aspect of things.


It's actually a 3 front war. COVID-19 cases are ramping up with 8,000 new cases over 200+ dead every day and has not plateaued yet. A public health crisis is on hand and resources must be dedicated for it. Don't think for a moment the Chinese don't know this and are planning for it.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby NRao » 31 May 2020 22:53

All the world needs to do is bring Xi down. Not China. And, as I see it, this is a great opportunity to help India to dismantle the Xi game plan (HK, SCS, Aussies, WHO, IMF, $ vs. whatever the Chinese currency is, ......) Just one man. Make him look terrible. Job done.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby arshyam » 31 May 2020 23:04

A 2017 promotional video by the contractor that built it, and it has got great visuals of the Pangong Tso's north bank road. The construction package is for 74km between Phobrang - Chartse - Point 4433, which, per the distance shown by G maps, is the entire stretch up to the ITBP sign at finger 4. (I couldn't locate where Chartse or Pt 4433 are on the map).

If this is the quality of roads we are building now, transportation in Ladakh has become much easier.


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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Ashokk » 31 May 2020 23:08

AdityaM wrote:This Twitter image
Looks like unconscious & hurt Indian soldiers have been tied up by Chinese.

https://twitter.com/iq_examiner/status/ ... 01985?s=21

Any one has context ? There is a boat on the top left corner

Image

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby khan » 31 May 2020 23:12


Good to see them up their PsyOps game. The fundamentals are the Chinese are facing 10-1 deficit in manpower on the LAC - which works very well when you are restricted to sticks, stones and fist-cuffs - the rest follows from there.


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