India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54707
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ramana » 05 Jun 2020 06:42

Folks new title for the thread to not mince words.
Last page of previous discussion here:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6510&start=4480

Davidrock
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 75
Joined: 10 Mar 2019 12:07

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Davidrock » 05 Jun 2020 06:55

If anyone has any doubt that finger 5-8 is outside of LAC and not disputed, see this news from 2019.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... s?from=mdr

----- snippet of related text ----
The disputed "Finger-5 to Finger-8" (mountainous spurs) area on the north bank of Pangong Tso, incidentally, had witnessed a violent clash between Indian and Chinese soldiers, with stones and iron rods being used to injure each other, on August 15, 2017.
---------------------------------------

So people like Abhijit, who I believed to be intelligent analyst till a few days ago, look like a fool now. He assumed finger 4 as LAC based on google maps. And I dont remember him speaking about grey zone recently. He surely believes that there is just 1 LAC mutually accepted !!

Davidrock
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 75
Joined: 10 Mar 2019 12:07

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Davidrock » 05 Jun 2020 06:59

At the moment we have one big question.

Do we have the ability to patrol finger 5-8, in the month old crisis ??

If not, then it has to be responded. The border is more than 3000k, we can surely ingress somewhere beyond our claim line and then negotiate from position of strength.

We should respond at time and place of our choosing. Action in sep-oct just before winter should be ideal.

krishna_krishna
BRFite
Posts: 861
Joined: 23 Oct 2006 04:14

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby krishna_krishna » 05 Jun 2020 07:03

ramana wrote:Folks new title for the thread to not mince words.


Excellent idea and rightly put ,the situation we face currently is combined onslaught from both.

This is a diversion to release pressure of porkies and pok, as soon as we re deploy peonies calculated that this will leave gaps for them to.exploit before winter and wade off any danger to PoK.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16814
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby NRao » 05 Jun 2020 07:14

Davidrock wrote:If anyone has any doubt that finger 5-8 is outside of LAC and not disputed, see this news from 2019.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... s?from=mdr

----- snippet of related text ----
The disputed "Finger-5 to Finger-8" (mountainous spurs) area on the north bank of Pangong Tso, incidentally, had witnessed a violent clash between Indian and Chinese soldiers, with stones and iron rods being used to injure each other, on August 15, 2017.
---------------------------------------

So people like Abhijit, who I believed to be intelligent analyst till a few days ago, look like a fool now. He assumed finger 4 as LAC based on google maps. And I dont remember him speaking about grey zone recently. He surely believes that there is just 1 LAC mutually accepted !!


No one, as far as I can tell, is confused. Finger 5-8 is disputed.

Davidrock wrote:At the moment we have one big question.

Do we have the ability to patrol finger 5-8, in the month old crisis ??

If not, then it has to be responded. The border is more than 3000k, we can surely ingress somewhere beyond our claim line and then negotiate from position of strength.

We should respond at time and place of our choosing. Action in sep-oct just before winter should be ideal.


India has been patrolling Finger 5-8 for years. Why this question? Are the Chinese preventing IA from patrolling today?

arshyam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3888
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby arshyam » 05 Jun 2020 08:01

Now that Col Dinny's interview has shed some light on the ground situation, I am wondering where it leaves our claim to the IB, which is close to Khurnak - the current discussions only seem to focus on their incursion in the fingers area from Sirijap, but no mention of our claim to Sirijap itself and points beyond. Even Col Dinny didn't say much about it, it almost sounded like fait accompli. Can we use this opportunity to press our claim to these areas?

The lake is nice and narrow at Khurnak, and that was probably the reason to agree on this location as the border way back with Tibet (easier to defend, hold the surrounding heights, etc.).

Another less talked about issue is the southern bank, where their positions seem better. They control the bank right opposite our base at just east of Finger 4 (33°39'42.7"N 78°43'56.0"E) and can monitor our movements. They also seem to have a dirt track that seems to go further on to the ridge overlooking our road connecting Pangong Tso to Chushul and Demchok. Even the Chushul airfield is directly opposite the LAC, since they hold the entire Spanggur gap area, and is vulnerable. While we cannot take their ridge positions without a difficult assault (which is not happening short of war), we can still prod them in other areas on the Pangong lake where access is easier. For example, can we use our boats to patrol into "their side" and mark territory? We don't need to permanently station people as won't be able to supply them (and repeat the mistake of the forward policy), but just like we hike up to finger 8, what stops us from boating along the lake in the name of patrol? Similarly, start prodding them in ridges they are not stationed at, and the terrain favours us for logistical support? Surely, there are multiple such unmanned locations given their lesser manpower in the area?

It's time we start prodding the Chinese to react to our demands. For far too long have they been able to creep on us with little cost.

Davidrock
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 75
Joined: 10 Mar 2019 12:07

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Davidrock » 05 Jun 2020 08:07

NRao wrote:
Davidrock wrote:No one, as far as I can tell, is confused. Finger 5-8 is disputed.

India has been patrolling Finger 5-8 for years. Why this question? Are the Chinese preventing IA from patrolling today?


I was referring to OSINT sources like Abhijit Iyer, who claims that finger 4 is where LAC is crossing and chinese are camped to the east of it. Hence all is good.

Till date we do not have confirmation from any source OSINT/Journalists if we still have the ability to patrol 5-8 in the present crisis, after the chinese deployed/camped there. This area is probably what some of referring to as area lost to china in the present crisis.

My question is, if we have ability to patrol it still, then status quo prevails. In this context, why the need to hold Lt Gen level talks to restore status quo ante 1 Apr.

suryag
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3782
Joined: 11 Jan 2009 00:14

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby suryag » 05 Jun 2020 08:46

DavidRock sir if you believe Abhijit Iyer is a good strategic analyst then you should also accept me as India's second astronaut.

Looks like the 40-60 Sq.km area is that between Finger 4 and Finger 8, I believe our side wants to take what was lost during Kargil war and the Chinese are resisting it as Sirijap posts become sitting ducks

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4855
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby chola » 05 Jun 2020 09:06

suryag wrote:DavidRock sir if you believe Abhijit Iyer is a good strategic analyst then you should also accept me as India's second astronaut.

Looks like the 40-60 Sq.km area is that between Finger 4 and Finger 8, I believe our side wants to take what was lost during Kargil war and the Chinese are resisting it as Sirijap posts become sitting ducks


Any signs that we are going beyond the sticks-and-stones stage? Or is it possible to regain lost territory with vigorous patrols along with some strategic pelting and caning?

To be perfectly honest, it seems both sides are pretty wary of escalation. After a few infiltration reports there is not much from the pakis either. Or am I missing something?

Davidrock
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 75
Joined: 10 Mar 2019 12:07

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Davidrock » 05 Jun 2020 09:21

suryag wrote:DavidRock sir if you believe Abhijit Iyer is a good strategic analyst then you should also accept me as India's second astronaut.

Looks like the 40-60 Sq.km area is that between Finger 4 and Finger 8, I believe our side wants to take what was lost during Kargil war and the Chinese are resisting it as Sirijap posts become sitting ducks


hahaha good one...I was getting inclined to him as he was telling what I wanted to hear.

But then truth is what we want to know, even though it may be bitter some times. I dont see any signs of us taking back f5-8.

And from where is Sirijap a sitting duck? Didnt see thoroughly, but they seem to have good roads till sirijap.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 24117
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby SSridhar » 05 Jun 2020 09:26

Though it is difficult to read anything Chinese, Galwan could also be a bargaining chip for Finger-4. Galwan is not in the list of 29 'contested areas' along the LAC. Indian Army's oversight was therefore thin. DSDBO is not something new, has been in the works for several years and completed 10 months back. So, the alibi of 'infrastructure' is weak. But, logistics in the Finger8 to 4 area does favour the Chinese (as we have to go by foot from Finger 4 or by boat). My guess is that they want to bargain Galwan for Finger 4.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16814
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby NRao » 05 Jun 2020 09:31

What is there to bargain in Galwan Valley?

As far as I know, there is no Chinese presence in the Indian side of the LAC.

____________________________________________________________________________________________

Besides Indians need to talk in terms of Aksai Chin and not to these bread crumbs, which is a Chinese narrative, and Indians who keep talking about the smaller things walk right into a Chinese trap.

Indian narrative has to start with Aksai Chin (and PoK, Gilgit-Baltistan).

Davidrock
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 75
Joined: 10 Mar 2019 12:07

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Davidrock » 05 Jun 2020 10:13

Davidrock wrote:
SSridhar wrote:Though it is difficult to read anything Chinese, Galwan could also be a bargaining chip for Finger-4. Galwan is not in the list of 29 'contested areas' along the LAC. Indian Army's oversight was therefore thin. DSDBO is not something new, has been in the works for several years and completed 10 months back. So, the alibi of 'infrastructure' is weak. But, logistics in the Finger8 to 4 area does favour the Chinese (as we have to go by foot from Finger 4 or by boat). My guess is that they want to bargain Galwan for Finger 4.


As far as info is available in public domain, there is no intrusion at galwan valley

they occupied some vantage points on their side, which they always can. Is there more to it ??

Ashokk
BRFite
Posts: 665
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Ashokk » 05 Jun 2020 12:51

LAC standoff: India eyes 4-pronged plan for Lt-Gen level talks with China
NEW DELHI: India will take care to ensure that any restoration of status quo ante does not take place on China’s terms during the Lt-General-level meeting to be held on Saturday in a bid to de-escalate the month-long troop confrontation in eastern Ladakh.

India’s negotiating stand will essentially be four-pronged during the talks at the Chushul-Moldo border personnel meeting (BPM) point, with the Indian delegation led by 14 Corps commander Lt-Gen Harinder Singh crossing over to the Chinese side for the dialogue, said sources on Thursday.
India, for one, wants the two armies to mutually de-induct their troops from the four to five confrontation sites at the northern bank of Pangong Tso (Tso means lake), Gogra-Hot Springs area and Galwan Valley region as well as additional battalions, artillery guns and armoured vehicles in the “rear areas” in a phased, verifiable manner.

A major concern for India is the way the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) has hardened its stance in the “Finger-1 to 8 areas” (mountainous spurs) that run west to east on the northern bank of Pangong Tso.
Though India physically controls till Finger-4, its soldiers have always patrolled up to Finger-8 in accordance with the Line of Actual Control (LAC). But since early-May, the PLA has blocked Indian patrols beyond Finger-4, while also “black-topping” an earlier makeshift track there. “The PLA must withdraw from the Finger-4 area,” said a source.

The second condition during the talks will be that China shouldn’t disrupt or impede India’s road and bridge-constructing activities in its own territory. “We will continue to build infrastructure on our side of the LAC as per plans,” said the source. It was the construction of a bridge and a couple of feeder link roads to the 255-km Darbuk-Shyok-Daulat Beg Oldie (DBO) road that was one of the triggers for the ongoing confrontation.

Three, both sides must direct their troops to maintain restraint and observe laid down protocols when their patrols come face-to-face with each other. The high-level of violence during the clash at Pangong Tso on May 5-6, when Chinese troops attacked Indian soldiers with nail-studded rods and stones, is “simply unacceptable”, said the source.

China will also have to “restore the trust deficit” that erupted after it diverted over 5,000 troops towards the LAC in eastern Ladakh from an exercise in its hinterland early last month, virtually catching the Indian Army by surprise.

But it remains to be seen “how accommodative China is” during the talks. The well-planned intrusions by a large number of PLA soldiers at multiple points across a broad frontage of the LAC, including the largely-settled Galwan Valley region, could not have taken place without the direct consent of China’s top politico-military leadership.

India, even though belatedly, more than matched China by moving forward troops of the Leh-based 3 Infantry Division (each division has 10,000-12,000 soldiers) into their “operational alert areas”, with several other battalions also being inducted into Ladakh from other areas, as was first reported by TOI on May 24.
Last edited by ramana on 05 Jun 2020 20:40, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Edited by ramana. Added more highlights

Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2923
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Vips » 05 Jun 2020 17:30

Ahead of talks with China over Ladakh standoff, India signals a realistic approach that the standoff may not end soon.

India has already made it clear it wants the Chinese troops to move back and restore status quo ante on the four positions. “We are not in a hurry… and I believe, neither is the Chinese side,” a government functionary told Hindustan Times signalling that the government had adopted a “realistic approach” to the standoff and the dialogue process. An official said given the high stakes involved, he expected the Ladakh standoff to continue for longer than the 73-day Doklam standoff. “Both sides have brought in elements that may continue for some months”.

Indian officials say the standoff at Pangong Tso appears to be aimed at dominating the Srijap mountain that overlooks the lake. But the game in Galwan valley - where the Chinese military has parked itself around three patrolling points - is a lot more complex.

“Broadly, our understanding is that the PLA’s focus on the Galwan valley is prompted by multiple objectives that are mostly linked to stalling the upgrade of border infrastructure that has picked up pace in the past two years,” a person familiar with the government’s position on the standoff said. For one, China wants to stall the construction of the winding 255-km Darbuk-Shyok-Daulat Beg Oldie road that would give the Indian army easy access to the last military post south of the dominating Karakoram Pass. The Indian side is, however, determined to complete construction of the entire stretch by this summer including the 60-metre bridge across the Galwan rivulet or nallah near the point of its confluence with Shyok river. “We have to complete the concrete bridge this month, and the road well before the onset of winter,” one official said.

Once this road is completed, the military capacity and capability would go up manifold in the region and enable the army to put counter pressure on the PLA at the Karakoram Pass, Chip Chap river area, Trig Heights, Hot Springs, Galwan and Depsang Plains.

“India will then have the capacity to counter retaliate to Chinese pressure,” an official said. This is an eventuality that the Chinese, which had been upgrading its border infrastructure for decades, is trying to avoid. In the long term, Indian strategists told Hindustan Times, the Chinese effort appears to make the Indian positions in the Daulat Beg Oldie sector untenable.


On its part, China has been pushing to open a route through this sector for a better linkage to Pakistan.Currently, China and its all weather ally Pakistan are linked by the Karakoram highway via the Khunjerab Pass.But China is looking to link Tibet with occupied Gilgit Baltistan through a better all-weather road.The idea is to have a better all weather road to Pakistan so that China Pakistan Economic Corridor is serviced throughout the year. China has already built a road through Gilgit’s Shaksgam valley that lies north-west of Siachen glacier. Pakistan had ceded around 5,163 sq km of the Shaksgam valley to China in a controversial 1963 boundary agreement.

If the Chinese are able to cut us off at Daulat Beg Oldie, they can put pressure through axis Murgo-Saser La-Sansoma , a major logistical supply point on Shyok River for Indian soldiers deployed to dominate Siachen Glacier. That would help Beijing’s ally Pakistan. “In a way,” an army officer said, “you could say that what General Pervez Musharaff could not achieve through the Kargil war, China’s paramount leader Xi Jinping, chairman of its Central Military Commission, expects to achieve before he demits office”.

The officer said the Chinese side could also try to stall the extension of an airstrip at Daulat Beg Oldie that would allow heavy-weight transport aircrafts also to land.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3889
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 05 Jun 2020 19:45

We have simple a solution:

Do TV driven build up. Show C17's dropping brigades in to Ladakh. Tanks being offloaded. IAF fighters building up in to bases. Artillery been moved towards LAC.

Double down on the roads, right up to the LAC. If required move forward towards our claim line and sit down there.

Since there is no "goli" policy, we can also go ahead and site down where we want.

ldev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2006
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ldev » 05 Jun 2020 20:11

India plays by the Queensbury rules in boxing, no hitting below the belt, no hitting with your elbow. China plays by the MMA rules, kicking, punching, elbowing, head butting all allowed.

So India dutifully follows the "protocols in place' according to the Queensbury rules by patrolling east of finger 4 upto finger 8 because it is "disputed" territory. China following MMA rules just occupies that area and prevents India from patrolling.

How many times does India need to be kicked in the teeth before realizing that China is not be trusted AT ALL. After 58 years of treachery why is India giving China the benefit of any doubt at all?

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54707
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ramana » 05 Jun 2020 20:36

Guys instead of our wish lists, can we follow the actual news as reported from India sources?
The 14 Corps commander is a Mandarin fluent. How many here can even read Mandarin?
Suggest hold off on giving advice till you get to know the facts.

khan
BRFite
Posts: 830
Joined: 12 Feb 2003 12:31
Location: Tx

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby khan » 05 Jun 2020 20:43

ramana wrote:Guys instead of our wish lists, can we follow the actual news as reported from India sources?
The 14 Corps commander is a Mandarin fluent. How many here can even read Mandarin?
Suggest hold off on giving advice till you get to know the facts.

I agree, there is too much dhoti shivering & self-flagellation going on.

Sanju
BRFite
Posts: 1196
Joined: 14 Aug 2005 01:00
Location: North of 49

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Sanju » 05 Jun 2020 20:54

Our (BRF's) forte has been to collect reports, analyse them and present the analysis. In this thread there has been too much emotion involved that has skewed analysis.
Please understand that journalists type in words like "caught unaware" , "taken by surprise" to generate eyeballs to the website.

Let the Armed Forces do their jobs. If we can figure out that the Straits of Malacca are a chokepoint for the Chinese, then so can those who have dedicated their lives to defend the land, water and air boundaries of India.

Posts that provide an insight and or information are the ones that I look forward to on this forum.

RamSuresh
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 43
Joined: 17 Aug 2016 15:30

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby RamSuresh » 05 Jun 2020 21:30

Sanju wrote:
Posts that provide an insight and or information are the ones that I look forward to on this forum.


+ 1008. I keep telling my friends to spend time here to understand issues. They say it takes a lot of effort to sift good posts from the rambles that they anyway get in Twitter.

CRamS
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6845
Joined: 07 Oct 2006 20:54
Contact:

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby CRamS » 05 Jun 2020 21:30

Davidrock wrote:hahaha good one...I was getting inclined to him as he was telling what I wanted to hear.

But then truth is what we want to know, even though it may be bitter some times. I dont see any signs of us taking back f5-8.

And from where is Sirijap a sitting duck? Didnt see thoroughly, but they seem to have good roads till sirijap.


Respectfully disagree. I do agree Abhijit Iyer Mitra is a tad pompous at times, but on this one he has analyzed satellite images. He is not saying Chnincoms have not amassed troops. He is debunking Pappu slave Shook Law's bogus claim that 10K Chincom troops are camping in Indian territory Kargil style, overlooking Indian supply routes. And of course the slimy dude does not have the balls that if indeed his claim is true, then the fault squarely lies with the Indian army for allowing that to happen, and ModiJi afterwards. But this Pappu's attack dog's motivation is only and only to paint ModiJio as weak. I also do not buy Shook Law's claim that Abhijhit Iyer Mitra a govt lapdog. Matter of fact, Abhijit Iyer has consistently attacked ModiJi for 'incompetence'.

Hari Nair
BRFite
Posts: 282
Joined: 20 Aug 2010 17:37
Location: Bangalore

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Hari Nair » 05 Jun 2020 21:53

Vips wrote:Ahead of talks with China over Ladakh standoff, India signals a realistic approach that the standoff may not end soon.

India has already made it clear it wants the Chinese troops to move back and restore status quo ante on the four positions. “We are not in a hurry… and I believe, neither is the Chinese side,” a government functionary told Hindustan Times signalling that the government had adopted a “realistic approach” to the standoff and the dialogue process. An official said given the high stakes involved, he expected the Ladakh standoff to continue for longer than the 73-day Doklam standoff. “Both sides have brought in elements that may continue for some months”.


If the Chinese are able to cut us off at Daulat Beg Oldie, they can put pressure through axis Murgo-Saser La-Sansoma , a major logistical supply point on Shyok River for Indian soldiers deployed to dominate Siachen Glacier. That would help Beijing’s ally Pakistan. “In a way,” an army officer said, “you could say that what General Pervez Musharaff could not achieve through the Kargil war, China’s paramount leader Xi Jinping, chairman of its Central Military Commission, expects to achieve before he demits office”.



A few quick points -

This "official" is trying to break the bottom-line gently to our public that in the Pangong sector, that the Chinese have done what they excel in - change the status on ground - they have come in and squatted on the 'Grey' zone between fingers 4-8. As I said in my earlier post in the now closed thread, a face-off that detiorates into a stalemate suits them just fine. They have nothing to lose. On the other hand, if we are unable to convince the Great Superior Race from the Middle Kingdom/ Centre of all Civilisatons, to move their Great People's Army back to status quo ante positions by this winter, then I am afraid we have effectively lost our case.

And from the Devil's point-of-view, why should they? BRF members may scrutinise the satellite pics (OSINT) posted by twitter handle d-atis@detresfa. The Chinese have built several new posts between fingers 4-6 and beefed up the other existing camps. Do we just expect them to smile meekly, understand our point-of-view, agree to our 'unrelenting' demands, pack up their bags and vacate all their newly built posts? Anybody who subscribes to that hope is, I'm afraid, living in a fool's paradise. All they have to do is to stonewall us till this campaign season is over (by about October-November) and the case is closed for us in Pangong - we will be pushed back effectively to the western side of finger 4 and that will be that.

The Corps Cdr and Army Cdr must be having sleepless nights and sweating - I have little sympathies for them, really - given the fact that they have state-of-art recce resources that can get information almost real time. There is no way the Chinese could have moved in and built all those new posts and beefed up their existing ones overnight. It would have required at least a fortnight of feverish work - men and materiel being pumped in through a single axis track in a terrain that is totally barren and absolutely exposed to aerial reconnaissance. As I said earlier, in this time and age, we were definitely sleeping at the wheel.

This 'official' bloke and some members in this forum make blithe, sweeping statements about "them threating us across SaserLa and our line to Siachen" and "we move in and take back Aksai Chin", etc. Its laughable. Whereas I can somewhat understand some BRF members making such statements since they have never been to SSN, this 'official' bloke is mouthing what can only be termed as horse manure.

The terrain in SSN is at high altitude, so bleak and so desolate with not a blade of grass in sight anywhere - each side's Army is forced to haul every single item mainly through long and torturous logistics lines that are forced to move and stretch through specific valleys and passes - absolutely open to any aerial action. The logistics line is very predictable and very slow moving - including the Chinese line(s) from Ngari prefecture. Compared to movement down in the plains, everything here is in 'slow motion' and metered down in volume due to all the choke points mentioned. And as for any Chinese elements hoping to climb up SaserLa to 'threaten' us across at Sasoma - well, good luck to them!! Members may kindly check out the terrain on Google Earth - and having flown across Saser La so many times, I can assure you, its far worse on the actual ground!

Each logistics line on both sides has been built with huge investments in technology and effort. However, each line also has several points of weakness that can be choked by the other side. Please do remember that if our DSDBO road has several vulnerabilities, the Great Folks from the Middle Kingdom don't really have six-lane express highways to the frontline to push in divisions worth of reinforcements overnight.

The action in this SSN sector and Pangong is on a different level in terms of scale and time- the buggers from the Middle Kingdom appear to have got it right - its all about creeping 'salami slicing' - which they have honed their skills on, over all these years.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12278
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Aditya_V » 05 Jun 2020 22:07

China cant man the entire ridge In the heights, we can always like them start getting our teams on the heights start building bunkers on the ridges and then start moving our patrols to Sirijap, not in a day or 2 but over time. Similarly if we work hard enough we will find weakpoints and plans. Chinese cant cut any of our supply lines, while Pakis will be at it. But we need to dig deep and play for the long haul. Not only as an army but the country as a whole.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16814
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby NRao » 05 Jun 2020 22:14

CNN :: Beijing's military adventurism in the Himalayas is risky. The world is big enough for the rise of India and China

Gen. Bikram Singh was the former 25th Chief of the Indian Army Staff

Last month saw several face-offs between the Indian Army and China's People's Liberation Army along the Line of Actual Control (LAC), their long-disputed shared border, high in the Himalayas.

While the entanglement in North Sikkim was resolved locally, within the framework of mutually agreed-upon protocols, the ones in Eastern Ladakh have lingered, giving rise to speculation about China's intentions.

The last major stand-off between the Asian giants was at Doklam in 2017, and lasted for 73 days. It was followed by informal meetings between Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Chinese President Xi Jinping, first at Wuhan in April 2018 and then at Mamallapuram in Tamil Nadu in October 2019. During those interactions, both leaders reiterated the importance of peace in border areas for greater strategic gains. They also issued guidance to their respective militaries to exercise restraint and strengthen mutual understanding and trust.

At strategic and operational levels, both militaries have exercised restraint. However, at the tactical level, face-offs occur due to differing perceptions of where the actual border is as the LAC is not delineated on the ground. While face-offs get resolved locally, those related to the building of infrastructure, such as roads and defence fortifications, invariably take longer and require a combination of military and diplomatic initiatives.

The bilateral agreements signed between 1993 and 2013 have helped prevent the use of force beyond the occasional fistfights. Not a bullet has been fired by either side since 1975, and that is unlikely to change now.

Facing myriad internal and external challenges during the coronavirus pandemic, China can ill-afford any risky adventurism in the Himalayas. A conflict with India, its main regional strategic competitor, will not only compound its problems but will seriously impede its stated journey towards becoming a global superpower by 2050. Some of the challenges that Xi Jinping faces today include China's contracting economy, its reignited trade war with the US, the departure of some manufacturing and the slowdown of its ambitious Belt and Road Initiative. Hong Kong protests, Taiwan's intransigence, and the global demand to probe its role in the coronavirus pandemic have also added to its woes.

Moreover, barring Pakistan, which is its all-weather strategic partner in the region, Beijing's assertive behavior coupled with its alleged pandemic-related role has generated anti-China sentiment in Asian countries it assiduously befriended as part of its containment strategy against India. India would do well to leverage this to its advantage.

Mutual deterrence

China is aware of the current combat potential of the Indian military, and has seen it evolve into an accountable, responsive and potent element of national power since the 1962 Sino-Indian conflict, over the still-disputed Himalayan border. Both militaries have been training together for many years to develop interoperability to undertake humanitarian assistance, disaster relief and counterterrorism operations. An understanding of each other's military prowess helps create mutual deterrence as each side realizes the grim consequences of a conflict. India, under the present political leadership, has demonstrated its inclination to use force when provoked. The volatile and complex proxy war arena of Jammu and Kashmir has further helped the Indian army to battle-harden its soldiers.

The possibility of Beijing using the face-offs for strategic messaging to India cannot be ruled out. New Delhi has not only joined the international chorus for a probe into the origin and spread of coronavirus pandemic but has also blocked the automatic route for approving foreign direct investments from China. The strengthening strategic partnership between India and the US is another irritant for Beijing. China is known to employ inducement and intimidation means to deal with the external challenges and in the internal domain, whipping up nationalist fervor to eclipse various governance-related failures and inadequacies. The ongoing LAC rows serve both purposes. Unlike the earlier face-offs, this time around, the Chinese mainstream and social media have been extremely active in propagating patriotic narratives.

The reconciliatory statements issued by the Chinese embassy in New Delhi and the Foreign Affairs Office in Beijing point towards China's desire to defuse the border tensions. However, there has been no forward movement on the ground. With India determined to develop the border infrastructure on its territory, as is its right, an early resolution of the entanglements could be difficult. This is a bilateral issue with no scope for any third-party intervention: both India and China have turned down the US proposal for mediation.

Although a conflict in the near future is a remote possibility, India must continue in earnest to develop its military capability to deter aggression and, should that fail, fight to win wars for the country. Relying on any external power to fight India's wars is certainly not a good idea. As an emerging great power, India must carry its own big stick.

But for greater economic and geostrategic gains, a peaceful resolution is the answer. There is enough room in the world for the two Asian giants to grow simultaneously.


Hari Nair
BRFite
Posts: 282
Joined: 20 Aug 2010 17:37
Location: Bangalore

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Hari Nair » 05 Jun 2020 22:14

Aditya_V wrote:China cant man the entire ridge In the heights, we can always like them start getting our teams on the heights start building bunkers on the ridges and then start moving our patrols to Sirijap, not in a day or 2 but over time. Similarly if we work hard enough we will find weakpoints and plans. Chinese cant cut any of our supply lines, while Pakis will be at it. But we need to dig deep and play for the long haul. Not only as an army but the country as a whole.


Aditya, request read my post above - this sector cannot be dealt with sweeping assessments.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12278
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Aditya_V » 05 Jun 2020 22:19

I agree it cant be sweeping assessments but in winter thier logistics will also be worse off. If we work at it long enough and exploring thier weakpoints we can make some gains. No points in negotiating now. All we can do is keeping stalling while we do something to hurt them.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16814
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby NRao » 05 Jun 2020 22:26

I do not believe there will be a stalemate. China will withdraw. In fact, based on a few other happenings (Jaishankar's statements in China, statements in GlobalTimes, etc) India will come out ahead from these incidences. India - from what I can see - has a much broader game plan and tomorrow's meeting, as an example, is just a small bit in that game plan.

Varoon Shekhar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2009
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 23:26

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 05 Jun 2020 23:24

DId we see Lt General Hooda on India Today TV( https://www.indiatoday.in/programme/new ... 2020-06-04) at about 18:48 of the program, very emphatically stating that the LAC is not some scribbly line which is open to interpretation. Hooda says that the IA knows exactly where it is throughout the border. Expresses cool confidence of India holding its own.
Last edited by Varoon Shekhar on 06 Jun 2020 00:19, edited 1 time in total.

krishna_krishna
BRFite
Posts: 861
Joined: 23 Oct 2006 04:14

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby krishna_krishna » 05 Jun 2020 23:49

NRao wrote:
Besides Indians need to talk in terms of Aksai Chin and not to these bread crumbs, which is a Chinese narrative, and Indians who keep talking about the smaller things walk right into a Chinese trap.

Indian narrative has to start with Aksai Chin (and PoK, Gilgit-Baltistan).


Sir, let India and Indians sort it it out. I can assure you with full confidence that we are capable of doing it on our own.What to do and needs to be talked about would not need require any outside input (not even suggestions are welcomed or asked for).

You got lot to take care of at home with COVID , civil unrest and Riots with tremendous amount of loss of life and property never heard of since 1960 or in any western countries in contemporary times, please spare some suggestions for your government. Thanks in advance.

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3059
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 06 Jun 2020 01:18

Did not see this posted earlier, it suggests we may have got caught napping, and not an "all is well" assessment as some others have put it.

Delhi Defence Review: A Military Appraisal Of The India-China Standoffs In Eastern Ladakh - By Colonel Mandeep Singh(Retd))

The first of these incidents was at Galwan on 5 May, 2020. The second incident occurred on 9 May in Naku La, in northern Sikkim, when about 200 Chinese soldiers temporarily occupied Indian territory, but withdrew and pitched up temporary shelters on their side.

This was followed by the third intrusion that took place near the Pangong Lake on May 12, 2020 when Chinese soldiers occupied territory between Finger 8 and Finger 4. The ‘Finger heights’ were taken over by the Chinese by 18 May. The next confrontation was reportedly in Harsil in Uttarakhand in the Middle Sector of the LAC.


The basic issue of the movement and build-up of such a large force going undetected is a matter of concern and points to an intelligence failure. There were indications that Chinese troops were moving from Lhasa to Ngari and these were accompanied by the elements of Joint Logistic Support Force. It is not known if this was noticed, and acted upon in time. But even so, a build up of two brigades in the area should have been picked by the intelligence and surveillance agencies and information passed on to the Army else it points to a serious lapse.

ArjunPandit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3518
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ArjunPandit » 06 Jun 2020 01:19

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hU1CvOWTgOI[/youtube]

see from 24 minutes..


any guesses who's the journo who's being talked here

"ek defence analyst hai jo ki e.g pro congress party hai kyounki uski rishtedari hai cong main"

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

ldev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2006
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ldev » 06 Jun 2020 01:23

krishna_krishna wrote:
NRao wrote:
Besides Indians need to talk in terms of Aksai Chin and not to these bread crumbs, which is a Chinese narrative, and Indians who keep talking about the smaller things walk right into a Chinese trap.

Indian narrative has to start with Aksai Chin (and PoK, Gilgit-Baltistan).


Sir, let India and Indians sort it it out. I can assure you with full confidence that we are capable of doing it on our own.What to do and needs to be talked about would not need require any outside input (not even suggestions are welcomed or asked for).

You got lot to take care of at home with COVID , civil unrest and Riots with tremendous amount of loss of life and property never heard of since 1960 or in any western countries in contemporary times, please spare some suggestions for your government. Thanks in advance.

India's well wishers come in all shapes, sizes and colors. Do not exclude anyone. Welcome everybody :)

krishna_krishna
BRFite
Posts: 861
Joined: 23 Oct 2006 04:14

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby krishna_krishna » 06 Jun 2020 01:52

ldev wrote:India's well wishers come in all shapes, sizes and colors. Do not exclude anyone. Welcome everybody :)


Sir absolutely Well Wishers are welcome, we believe in "vasudhaiva kutumbakam" only. I am sure curious minds on this forum knows the intent and pattern of such posts , two can play the game no ?

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20905
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Philip » 06 Jun 2020 07:49

Around 2++ decades ago in the last century,I was discussing one convivial evening with a few gents from our dpl.corps ,etc.,the situation on our borders.I cannot recall the then incidents ,but the usual flak from our western neighbour was taking place and the conversation steered towards "perfidious Pak" . I had just met a powerful v.old friend,heavweight politico from another land,v.pro- India who had just returned from China on an official visit. Over dinner he warned me about the future intentions of the Middle Kingdom,what he had quietly picked up, and it sounded a bit far-fetched. However ,I trusted him enormously.He was deeply worried that we were not doing enough to counter China in all spheres. I shared this with my dpl. friends who for the most were rather sceptical,as things between our two countries were generally quiet after Gen.Sunderji's lesson to the Chins.I reiterated that it was China who would prove to be the greatest threat to us not Pak,which was the obsession of most of the mandarins of the MEA in the Delhi Durbar.

However,it has all come to pass. Chronologically,Chinese BMs to the Saudis ( warheads from Pak), missile and nuke tech to Pak, enabling them to test immediately after P-2 ,the " string of pearls" in the IOR,moves in SL which I've been talking about for over 2 decades - ending up in the H'tota squat, and the Chinese move to the Gulf through Pak via Gwadar and the OBOR . Until the arrival of Mr.Modi and a revitalising of India's defence,foreign outreach and closer ties with the US both economic and military,the Chinese kept their strategy ( towards India) closely hidden. Under fuhrer XI, China's
silk glove has been cast aside and open aggression,threats,intimidation has been the norm for all of Asia and even the west,the US included. Canada and OZ have already felt the sting of XI's whip.

The breakout of the " first island chain" has coincided on time with the arrival of the PLAN in a greatly expanded force,priority being now ) given not to its army but its navy. First the gobbling up of islands and atolls in the ICS. The completion of the massive nuclear sub and naval base at Hainan and the commencement of the string of pearls operation with near simultaneous diplomatic and military successes in Lanka,the Maldives, Djibouti and other African states.Add to this the sealing of the deal for Gwadar,Jiwani,etc. eith Pak. What 2 decades ago was laughed at as ridiculous is now a reality, the permanent presence in the IOR of Chinese warships and subs.

Events in Ladakh are meant to protect the road and rail "pipeline" for Chin trade through Tibet, Ladakh,POK,Pak ,through to Gwadar,and thereon to the Gulf,where all along the route the Chinese military are ensuring the safety of the pipeline. The arrival of the BJP and PM Modi has spurred the Chins to accelerate their plans before our current dispensation can complete modernisation of the armed forces plugging the gaps wherever possible in the vast border by building up our infra. on our side.More importantly to China has been the govt. and PM's war cry that we can be the alternative to China for global MNC manufacturing. The Wuhan/ China Virus has only increased that likelihood. The several interactions thus far between both leaders has resulted in XI dusting off the '62 file ,determined to teach PM Modi the same lesson Mao taught Nehru,but that's were similarities end. We aren't as weak as we were in '62 and PM Modi is not Nehru.

Unfortunately, taking a leaf out of Gen.Bandicoot's Kargil diary, the PLA have intruded into our space,are staying put,waiting to drive a hard bargain politically and diplomatically,where their OBOR gambit which India has refused to join in, must be acknowledged as " untouchable" even as it passes through POK. Such a route gives Pak a lifeline,enabling it to carry out indefinitely terror against India esp. in Kashmir and one half of the solution to China resolving the "Malacca Dilemma".The other half being the SOP in the IOR. Aome analysts are saying,this is the Laxman Rekha that India must stand firm upon. We have little alternative but to take military countermeasures on the ground at the hotspots,but to also outflank China diplomatically,playing the two "T" cards
and the economic punishment it must deserve.
Expect precious little from the military confabulations between high-ranking generals. The stakes are far higher than a few sq. kms on the ground.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 24117
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby SSridhar » 06 Jun 2020 08:36

Differences shouldn't turn into disputes; India, China set tone - Sachin Parashar, ToI
Ahead of the crucial military talks to resolve the border standoff, India and China together reiterated Friday that they should not allow their differences to turn into disputes.

Importantly for India, the talks seemed to set the right tone for the meeting of the army commanders with the 2 countries underlining the significance of respecting each other's "concerns, sensitivities and aspirations" while handling their differences.

After a meeting between the Indian and Chinese foreign ministry officials through a video conference, China said in a statement that the 2 countries should acknowledge that, under the leadership of President Xi Jinping and PM Narendra Modi, they were not a threat to each other and that they should see each other as an opportunity for development.

In saying so, Beijing echoed the remarks made by its ambassador Sun Weidong here earlier in what looked like an attempt to reach out to India in the middle of the LAC strife. Like Sun, China said in the statement that looking at each other in the right way will enhance strategic mutual trust, deepen mutually beneficial cooperation, and properly manage differences.

"They agreed that the two sides should follow the strategic guidance of the two leaders, put into action that China & India pose no threat to each other & represent development opportunities for each other, & differences should not be turned into disputes," tweeted Sun after the meeting on Friday.

The mention of strategic guidance is a throwback to the 2018 Wuhan summit where Xi and Modi issued strategic guidance to their respective militaries to strengthen communication in order to build trust and mutual understanding and "enhance predictability and effectiveness in the management of border affairs".

In the first senior-level meeting since the latest standoff started, the 2 countries reviewed bilateral relations including the "current developments".

In this context, MEA said, they recalled the consensus reached by the leaders of the two countries, that peaceful, stable and balanced relations between India and China will be a positive factor for stability in the current global situation.

"Both sides also agreed that in accordance with the guidance provided by the leadership, the two sides should handle their differences through peaceful discussion bearing in mind the importance of respecting each other's sensitivities, concerns and aspirations and not allow them to become disputes," it added.

The two sides also exchanged views on the challenge posed by the Covid-19 pandemic and cooperation in various multilateral forums, said the government.

"They also agreed that China and India should deepen cooperation on fight against Covid epidemic, support the WHO resolutely, uphold and promote multilateralism & safeguard common interests of developing countries," tweeted the ambassador.

China went on to say that the "giant ship" of Sino-Indian relations was moving in the right direction. It also called for the two countries to deepen anti-epidemic cooperation, oppose "politicizing the epidemic situation" , support the World Health Organization, and promote the construction of a public health system. It further called for the 2 countries to "resolutely safeguard and promote multilateralism, oppose unilateralism, protectionism and hegemony, jointly safeguard international fairness and justice, and safeguard the common interests of developing countries". {Very clear that China does not want India to attend the expanded G-7 meet or go against any Chinese interests in WHO or support US position, calling itself a 'developing country' to suit its needs. As is the case, China always tries to achieve multiple goals in one shot. It is mixing all these with 'salami slicing' in the current developments on the LAC}

The Indian and Chinese delegations in the talks Friday were led respectively by Naveen Srivastava, Joint Secretary (East Asia) and Wu Jianghao, Director General in the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

CRamS
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6845
Joined: 07 Oct 2006 20:54
Contact:

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby CRamS » 06 Jun 2020 10:04

If you notice, Pappu slave Shook Law's twitter line, he has set the stage for Pappu & Co to use this stand off against ModiJi no matter what the outcome, unless Chincoms show the surrender flag. Very clever. In other words, any give and take ending this standoff will be spun by Shook Law as a sell out by ModiJi and "sell" it is a victory so "bhakts" can celebrate. See his contempt.

As per most military analysis, its highly unlikely that there will be any kinetic action. There will be some huffing and puffing, possibly some give and take, and something will be worked out. I really doubt China will just walk away. But any sub maximalist compromise will be spun by Shook Law as a sell out.

I watched a puke worthy debate on TimesNow where 2 of Pappu slaves were literally p!ssing on Gen Bakshi and Col RSN Singh. I really cannot belied we have some many 5th columnists and traitors under the garb of 'freedom of speech' in India. This debate was about Sonia Gandhi and her slave govt in Jharkand preventing workers from building that road in Ladakh citing Coronoa virus

khan
BRFite
Posts: 830
Joined: 12 Feb 2003 12:31
Location: Tx

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby khan » 06 Jun 2020 10:11

CRamS wrote:If you notice, Pappu slave Shook Law's twitter line, he has set the stage for Pappu & Co to use this stand off against ModiJi no matter what the outcome, unless Chincoms show the surrender flag. Very clever. In other words, any give and take ending this standoff will be spun by Shook Law as a sell out by ModiJi and "sell" it is a victory so "bhakts" can celebrate. See his contempt.

As per most military analysis, its highly unlikely that there will be any kinetic action. There will be some huffing and puffing, possibly some give and take, and something will be worked out. I really doubt China will just walk away. But any sub maximalist compromise will be spun by Shook Law as a sell out.

I watched a puke worthy debate on TimesNow where 2 of Pappu slaves were literally p!ssing on Gen Bakshi and Col RSN Singh. I really cannot belied we have some many 5th columnists and traitors under the garb of 'freedom of speech' in India. This debate was about Sonia Gandhi and her slave govt in Jharkand preventing workers from building that road in Ladakh citing Coronoa virus

This is how a democracy works, get used to it. Without this, politicians will be tempted to find the easy way out. Look at all the nonsense that Nehru got away with - Do you think it would be possible in today’s media landscape?

This is a strength, not a weakness. If you don’t like TimesNow, then don’t watch it.

CRamS
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6845
Joined: 07 Oct 2006 20:54
Contact:

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby CRamS » 06 Jun 2020 11:25

I am all for democracy. But please watch that debate and you tell me if those 2 Pappu slaves were demonstrating India’s proud democratic credentials or they were showing themselves to be what they are: pipsqueak colonized slaves justifying treason and sedition

Karna
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 43
Joined: 26 Mar 2020 23:23

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Karna » 06 Jun 2020 12:27

CRamS wrote:I am all for democracy. But please watch that debate and you tell me if those 2 Pappu slaves were demonstrating India’s proud democratic credentials or they were showing themselves to be what they are: pipsqueak colonized slaves justifying treason and sedition


Haven't seen the debate. However, both the current PM and HM took a similar hard stance against the MMS Gov during the 2013 stand off. MMS was accused of been soft.

That's the nature of Politics. The current gov is supposed to be a hawk when it comes to India's internal and external security matters and any weakness shown here will be amplified. BJP would have done the same.

P.S : For any security related debate I read BRF.. Better for health and mind.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: isubodh and 63 guests