India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

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Larry Walker
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Larry Walker » 07 Jun 2020 15:49

https://youtu.be/dJQz2mkhUug -->> this is the uber highway they built between Nyingchi and Lhasa where u see even lesser vehicles than what u would encounter in Nevada or elsewhere, all just to move their military when required and to 'integrate' Tibet into China. When a country has this kind of determination, then I think Option B is the only choice we have.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby amar_p » 07 Jun 2020 15:50

When the winter is over and ice thaws, they will surely take up these new positions again, nibbling some territory and gaining tactical advantages.

But more importantly they will have proved that they can get away with such aggressions if India does not hold its ground, compel them to retreat AND extract some punitive concessions.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 07 Jun 2020 16:01

kit wrote:Guys, may I ask for a discussion along these lines., the quadrilateral grouping is all fine , but how exactly is the US, Australia Japan etc going to help india if push comes to shove ? ..keep in mind this is still not a full fledged military alliance. I don't care political support which is clapping from sidelines.

#1 would be intelligence sharing, something that cane be done completely behind the scenes (so no overt support required) and will give us a tangible advantage based on the degree of intelligence sharing.
#2 sell/lease/transfer munitions and equipment, this comes under overt help, but quite possible - although we don't have too many US platforms so this may be of limited help.
#3 "Tom Clancy" scenarios where US joins the war on our side, use your imagination - but very very unlikely.

At the other end of the spectrum they could simply sanction us - IMO quite possible if the conflict starts looking like we may end up with very significant gains, and stop a total collapse of the PLA (somewhat like 1971 on western front), and put itself in the position of the mediator.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Larry Walker » 07 Jun 2020 16:04

I think I will die heartbroken that even if we are not the leaders, we cannot even catchup to the first world and PRC. All we are good at is chest thumping and giving gyaan and expounding some vague benefits of democracy which in our country is a wrapper around the underlying filth, poverty, hopelessness and civic anarchy. Chinese never gave such excuses and they just marched forward. My thinking is that for example travelling everyday or with family in subhuman degrading conditions and being humiliated at not being able to provide for your family some basic decent comfort is much more degrading and dehumanizing then this lofty ideals of democracy vs communism and other such first world nonsense.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby schinnas » 07 Jun 2020 16:32

There is option C as well and it would bey choice.

Indulge in reverse salami slicing of key strategic territories every year in Ladakh or Chambi valley or Arunachal border. Our intrusions and salami slicing should be 2x of what they are doing. These are the territories that anyways belong to us such as Akshai Chin or belong to Tibet in the east.

Longer term, India and the world have a moral obligation to prevent Tibet from losing its culture and language at the hands of ruthless Chinese oppression.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby amar_p » 07 Jun 2020 16:42

Quad = Chinese Nukes irrelevant

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby kit » 07 Jun 2020 17:08

abhik wrote:
kit wrote:Guys, may I ask for a discussion along these lines., the quadrilateral grouping is all fine , but how exactly is the US, Australia Japan etc going to help india if push comes to shove ? ..keep in mind this is still not a full fledged military alliance. I don't care political support which is clapping from sidelines.

#1 would be intelligence sharing, something that cane be done completely behind the scenes (so no overt support required) and will give us a tangible advantage based on the degree of intelligence sharing.
#2 sell/lease/transfer munitions and equipment, this comes under overt help, but quite possible - although we don't have too many US platforms so this may be of limited help.
#3 "Tom Clancy" scenarios where US joins the war on our side, use your imagination - but very very unlikely.

At the other end of the spectrum they could simply sanction us - IMO quite possible if the conflict starts looking like we may end up with very significant gains, and stop a total collapse of the PLA (somewhat like 1971 on western front), and put itself in the position of the mediator.


My take is the Quad cant do much, all the above can happen without the QUAD hullabaloo "friendships" are quite enough., unless and until i see an American carrier group steaming to South China sea and another one in the Indian Ocean in support of India and Australia deploying their warships which may not happen without a military alliance, the QUAD is no good from the Indian perspective. esp against China.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby yensoy » 07 Jun 2020 17:18

amar_p wrote:If India's demand is that Chinese Army must withdraw to April's "status quo ante" positions, then we are not imposing any costs for this Chinese misadventure. Makes us look weak to the Chinese. There has to be a punitive element in our demands so that the other side thinks twice before taking any aggressive steps in the future.

I don't think so. It will be April status quo + we continue construction, and that was our intention in the first place. Of course in a settlement both sides will have to give up something but it appears to me that we will not compromise on our plan to construct the spine road to DBO; regarding the spurs, it is something which may have to be sacrificed in parts for the time being. That's only my uninformed reading of the situation.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby chetak » 07 Jun 2020 17:32

looks like the cheeni do not want the Indians in the ameriki camp when trump is making accusations and pointing at the hans for the wuhan virus having been spread purposely

so the hans are in a real panic about some sort of a global consensus that is building against them and the ladakh standoff is just to warn India.

the hans have already lost huge face just by the mere fact that India has pushed back so strongly and that too, after the doklam standoff, where the hans came off second best.


China wants India to oppose politicisation of COVID-19 pandemic


Beijing wants New Delhi to continue to stay away from the campaign the United States launched to blame China for the COVID-19 pandemic.

Even as both sides are engaged in talks to de-escalate tension along the disputed boundary between the two nations in eastern Ladakh, Beijing has conveyed to New Delhi through diplomatic channels that it expects India to join China to oppose what it called “politicization” of the COVID-19 pandemic by the President Donald Trump’s administration in the United States.

The issue of the COVID-19 pandemic came up for discussion when the senior diplomats of India and China had a video-conference on Friday. The video-conference set the framework for the talks the commanders of the Indian Army and the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA) had on Saturday to defuse the tension along the Line of

“They (senior diplomats of India and China) also agreed that #China & #India should deepen cooperation on fight against #COVID19 epidemic, support the #WHO, resolutely uphold and promote multilateralism & (and) safeguard common interests of developing countries,” Sun Weidong, China’s ambassador to India, posted on Twitter.

Naveen Srivastava, Joint Secretary (East Asia) in the Ministry of External Affairs (MEA), represented New Delhi in the video-conference. His counterpart, Wu Jianghao, led the delegation of the Chinese Government.

“The two sides also exchanged views on the challenge posed by the COVID-19 pandemic and cooperation in various multilateral forums,” the MEA stated in a press-release issued in New Delhi. The Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs, however, stated in a separate press-release issued in Beijing that the two sides agreed to deepen cooperation to deal with the COVID-19 crisis and oppose “politicization of the epidemic situation”.

India refrained from joining the US-led tirade blaming China for the COVID-19 pandemic, which started from Wuhan in the Hubei province of the communist country. It also did not echo American President Donald Trump’s allegations against the World Health Organization (WHO) that it had been biased towards China and had not alerted the US and other nations adequately about the spread of the virus well in time. The US also stopped funding of the WHO.

New Delhi however later joined the European Union and several other nations to sponsor a resolution at the World Health Assembly asking the WHO to identify the zoonotic source of the virus and the route of its introduction to human population.

When Trump and Prime Minister Narendra Modi spoke over phone recently, they also discussed the need for reforms in the WHO.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby amar_p » 07 Jun 2020 18:04

yensoy wrote:
amar_p wrote:If India's demand is that Chinese Army must withdraw to April's "status quo ante" positions, then we are not imposing any costs for this Chinese misadventure. Makes us look weak to the Chinese. There has to be a punitive element in our demands so that the other side thinks twice before taking any aggressive steps in the future.

I don't think so. It will be April status quo + we continue construction, and that was our intention in the first place. Of course in a settlement both sides will have to give up something but it appears to me that we will not compromise on our plan to construct the spine road to DBO; regarding the spurs, it is something which may have to be sacrificed in parts for the time being. That's only my uninformed reading of the situation.


I hope thats not the case. How does the Chinese accepting that we can construct whatever the hell we want to in OUR territory amount to them giving up something ?! We shouldn't be giving a rats a$$ if they accept it or not.

This is a sample test by China-Pak of our resolve to protect our borders and to see if our proclamations that "Gilgit Baltistan & Aksai Chin are an integral part of our territory" have any real intent behind them.

The time is not to blink but give a bloody nose.

If they don't backoff unconditionally, we should recognise Taiwan as an independent country and open an embassy there, declare Tibet as an occupied territory, put pressure on WHO, mobilise Quad to counter their deployments in Indo-Pacific theatre, tie up with Americans to create a land border between Afghanistan and India, develop military cooperation with Vietnam, table a resolution in the UN against the oppression of Uighur muslims, ban Huawei... we have so many cards to play.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Larry Walker » 07 Jun 2020 18:13

https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/sta ... 97601?s=19

This propoganda ad video really makes we wonder if Chinese are more afraid of us then we are of them ??!!
What will these few hundred choclate boys do with just a bagpack and no sign of any logistics or any other war material. All we see is some APC's being loaded and few tanks that too on transports and in usual commie style the final paegentry when they all asemble. This is ridiculous level for any kind of pysops and makes it look completely hilarious.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 07 Jun 2020 18:44

That is 15th Airborne of PLAAF. Looks like they have asked to move to higher region to aclimitize... probably in case we move in and they are caught flat footed.

Just did a dekho at the map and Chendgu is around 800KM from AP.. I hope we have built up some terror weapons in form of BM to target those aircraft production centers, if the Chini targets any of our facilities.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby shyamd » 07 Jun 2020 18:53

Looks like some progress was made yesterday though many are calling it failure. The fact the Lt Gen/Maj Gen has pushed the talks down to Brigadier/Col. level means they are pushing the issue to be resolved at the local level. It's obvious the issue is more complex than what is being played out in the media.

This PRC issue on the border may come back to bite... Mil intel/recon spotted unusual movements as early as mid-april. By 1st week of May the first clash happened. There are some saying that the reaction/communication time took too long.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Pratyush » 07 Jun 2020 18:56

The argument that PRC doesn't want India in the US alliance system makes no sense from the pov of PRC actions.

As they through their own actions are pushing India, Australia US and others into a tight embrace.

If you don't want specific people to not gang up against you. Then you never pick a fight with all of them at the same time. As doing so is guaranteed to get them into and alliance against you.

Do they really think that they along with TSP and north korea can beat India, US, Australia, South Korea and Japan. Possibly Vietnam, Philippines, and Taiwan.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Vips » 07 Jun 2020 19:09

Larry Walker wrote:So let me ask a basic question - if Chinese know that anyways they will withdraw when winter sets in, then why all this hullaboo ?? I am confused - what do the Chinese want and more importantly what do they gain by the current situation ?? If all it predicates is to have chai-biskoot till it snows and then Hans go back home ??


China would now loose face if it withdraws without achieving at least a minor military gain. It already had to move back from Doklam and now a repeat will surely make them look as weak and this something they cannot afford. The Chinese will ask for a face saver from India which would only mean compromising our interests and Modi's India will not give them that so we need to be vigilant and give it to the them atleast 2X when they attack us.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Guddu » 07 Jun 2020 19:26

There is some discussion, that pressure in ladakh is to keep the Indians focussed on the border, away from building strength in the Indian Ocean. I think India should turn the tables.
1. Start salami slicing Chinese territory and let Chinese play catch up.
2. Start harrassing Chinese ships in Indian Ocean.
3. Join the Quad and say we all need to maintain peace in Indo-Pacific
4. Join G7+3, and say this is about democracy etc.
5. Give a hard decision in the WHO against the Chinese
6. Save the threat of recognition of Taiwan as quid pro quo,for controlling Chinese behaviour once we take back POK.

Do not give the Chinese any face saver in the current imbroglio. This is the minimum we need to do to pressurize the Chinese. All of the above can be done with little cost.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Sravan » 07 Jun 2020 19:29

All I have to say is this: China is allying with several neighbors to push us. What is wrong in using quad alliances to push them back.

Why are we self imposing restrictions that we have to do it alone? We should have the alliances in place to jump them with numerical and qualitative superiority.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby amar_p » 07 Jun 2020 19:32

Face saver is simple - both sides agree to revert to status quo ante positions and initiate a series of discussions/negotiations to resolve all pending border disputes with an unspecified timeline. And make statements about multifaceted cooperation to fight pandemics, improve cultural ties, blah blah...

CCP can project it internally as having brought India to the negotiating table and GOI will project it as a victory in terms if protecting its territory. And we all move on to respective masala chai or bat soup drinking.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby srin » 07 Jun 2020 19:44

China wants to achieve its military and strategic objectives without any war with us. The recent statements from their propaganda mouthpieces only reaffirms that.
All this dhoti-shivering I see on this thread about how big their GDP is, and how ill equipped we are, only shows that their propaganda is working.
GDP and equipment are only two of the factors (think Saudis). Battle experience is a critical factor and thanks to the terroristan, we have a good amount of experience there. Imagine holding on to Siachen for more than 25 years. Imagine taking the mountain tops of Kargil.
But this is not enough. The military needs national support.
I think the will of the politicians and the will of the people to support the tough measures of the leadership matter a lot more. I also think we have the political will now with this current govt but reading the articles here (in BRF of all places), I'm not so sure about the will of the people.

I don't believe Chinese are ready to fight, and I don't believe they would win ("win" - achieve their territorial objectives). I think we're ready to take them on if necessary.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby skumar » 07 Jun 2020 20:24

We need to be realistic and bold, without being foolhardy. Thinking of Lhasa :) is a day dream, unless we are prepared to risk an all out war. It would be an existential issue for the CCP.

The Chinese want to project their power in a post-COVID world but they will not risk an all out war either. They want to accomplish strategic objectives through tactical means.

The border is long and remote and we have augmented troop positions. We should make 1-2 incursions of our own across the LAC - this will make them talk.

The thing is India has been taken for granted as a status quo power. The Chinese will build infra on their side but demand that we stop this on our side. If they think like that and we allow them to, it is our problem, not theirs.
Last edited by skumar on 07 Jun 2020 20:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby shyamd » 07 Jun 2020 20:24

The PLA road between Finger 8 to 4 was constructed during Kargil times where there wasn't enough troops to prevent the road building.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Barath » 07 Jun 2020 20:28

somdev wrote: Tibet is a buffer state even if it is under Chinese occupation. Tibet's independence is acknowledged globally by many nations.


Please name some of those nations.

Per wiki:


The United States government maintains that no country recognizes Tibet as a sovereign state,[98] and German scholar Thomas Heberer wrote: "No country in the world has ever recognized the independence of Tibet or declared that Tibet is an 'occupied country'. For all countries in the world, Tibet is Chinese territory."[99][100] The only historical exception was the similarly unrecognized Bogd Khanate of Mongolia, which declared independence from China together with Tibet just after the fall of the Qing dynasty


In other words, I don't know where you are getting information from

The current concept of national sovereignty does not fit well with older concepts of suzerainty , tribute paying states etc. While there has been discussion of historical de facto independence / symbolic stories from one side or the other; I doubt if any significant country or set of countries recognizes Tibet's independence now.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Barath » 07 Jun 2020 20:45

kit wrote:
My take is the Quad cant do much, all the above can happen without the QUAD hullabaloo "friendships" are quite enough., unless and until i see an American carrier group steaming to South China sea and another one in the Indian Ocean in support of India and Australia deploying their warships which may not happen without a military alliance, the QUAD is no good from the Indian perspective. esp against China.


When you read about what killed the quad the last time around, you get a sense that the countries of the quad had differing understanding of what it was supposed to be, and differing degrees of enthusiasm for it - it was a lot less institutionalized and more temporary/fragile

https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-inter ... ed-quad-10
https://asia.nikkei.com/Opinion/The-Con ... f-the-Quad

I suspect it is still so to a substantial degree, but still more useful than not having one. I forecast that the logistics agreement with Australia will lead to some joint exercises, and Australia becoming a permanent member of Malabar exercises in a couple of years . I also think, that irrespective of the Quad, military decisions will be taken on the basis of calculations of interests at that point in time
Last edited by Barath on 07 Jun 2020 21:21, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Barath » 07 Jun 2020 21:13

srin wrote:China wants to achieve its military and strategic objectives without any war with us. ...
All this dhoti-shivering I see on this thread about how big their GDP is, and how ill equipped we are, o....


As i uunderstand : India has conventional superiority of forces near the borders. China has conventional superiority of forces overall. However, India has a vulnerability to a hypothetical 2.5 front war, while China's primary interests are focused in their east. And thus vulnerable to US,Japanese and other pressures there. So it cannot apply full power against India, with a modicum of foresight.

All this talk of dhoti shivering is just so much flapping. India's core interests are not faffing around with a few km of desolate land and playing ego games, it is the development of the country to meet the aspirations of Indian people. This you get by calibrated rivalry with China and other wealthy nations, not by playing with poor countries. Avoid losing control of escalation, and you figure out how to grow the GDP and revolutionize the military. For the rest of the current incident, this is just a distraction. A certain number of people who are easily bored, who lose track of long term strategic aims, or have no faith that India can revolutionize militarily or economically faster than China will try to look at evanescent short term gains or ego stroking. Others may join. It doesn't matter.

Power is not just military, it is economic. And sustained military power grows from economic and other power. China wants to achieve military and strategic objectives without any war with India or around Taiwan , where possible. This is sensible. India too should ideally aim to achieve military and strategic objectives without any war (but not at any cost)

China does have issues with the Tibet-Xinjiang road and Indian claims, but these are not currently threatened. Another core issue is the sucession of the Dalai Lama. Better have plans in place for that.

Co-option, co-operation, rivalry, intimidation, will all serve their turn (better wording is sama dhana bedha dhanda ...in rotation)
Last edited by Barath on 07 Jun 2020 21:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby brar_w » 07 Jun 2020 21:17

kit wrote:unless and until i see an American carrier group steaming to South China sea and another one in the Indian Ocean in support of India and Australia deploying their warships which may not happen without a military alliance, the QUAD is no good from the Indian perspective. esp against China.


The US does sail its AC's into the South China Sea. In fact as recently as last month, the USMC sailed the LHA-6 with F-35 B's through that region. The USS Theodore Roosevelt has completed its Air Wing requalification after being sidelined due to Covid 19 and was in the Philippine Sea yesterday and may well make a pass into the SCS. Same with USS Ronald Reagan, it too is deployed in the region.
Last edited by brar_w on 07 Jun 2020 21:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Aditya_V » 07 Jun 2020 21:20

Meanwhile India Today reports Pakistan is resorting to heavy firing on LOC to try and send thier Jihadis.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 07 Jun 2020 21:25

Pratyush wrote:The argument that PRC doesn't want India in the US alliance system makes no sense from the pov of PRC actions.

As they through their own actions are pushing India, Australia US and others into a tight embrace.

If you don't want specific people to not gang up against you. Then you never pick a fight with all of them at the same time. As doing so is guaranteed to get them into and alliance against you.

Do they really think that they along with TSP and north korea can beat India, US, Australia, South Korea and Japan. Possibly Vietnam, Philippines, and Taiwan.


I would disagree, just look at what they have done with the Philippines, and other ASEAN countries - they have gobbled up the south china indo-china sea even while managing to prevent any US alliance with these countries. They have militarily bullied the countries into submission and have them by their family jewels in a vice like grip via Belt and Road and other economic means.

To an extent they have been doing the same to use also, they have been doing salami slicing for the past few decades, and have been pocking us diplomatically at every opportunity (remember the stapled visas for AP residents?), even while building up a trade massively (mostly to their advantage - thankfully we did not sign up to BRI). All this while officially we have downplayed every "standoff", and tried to resolve every thing behind the curtains through "talks" (who knows what concessions have been given away). We have also been very coy about joining any alliance, take the pains to announce any mil exercise is not against any 3rd country etc.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby kit » 07 Jun 2020 21:42

OK, now why does the IA think it should be controlling the borders instead of the ITBP, could anyone enlighten us what exactly ITBP provides which the IA cant?

What is the need for the ITBP ?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby kit » 07 Jun 2020 21:44

brar_w wrote:
kit wrote:unless and until i see an American carrier group steaming to South China sea and another one in the Indian Ocean in support of India and Australia deploying their warships which may not happen without a military alliance, the QUAD is no good from the Indian perspective. esp against China.


The US does sail its AC's into the South China Sea. In fact as recently as last month, the USMC sailed the LHA-6 with F-35 B's through that region. The USS Theodore Roosevelt has completed its Air Wing requalification after being sidelined due to Covid 19 and was in the Philippine Sea yesterday and may well make a pass into the SCS. Same with USS Ronald Reagan, it too is deployed in the region.



Does this routine sailing go into the Chinese self-claimed areas of sea control which is not internationally recognised, or they sail further away from contested areas ?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby brar_w » 07 Jun 2020 21:49

The US Navy routinely does FONOPS around disputed areas claimed by China. There may be a wiki page that documents them.

Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_o ... _China_Sea
Last edited by brar_w on 07 Jun 2020 22:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Venkarl » 07 Jun 2020 22:08

Larry Walker wrote:https://youtu.be/dJQz2mkhUug -->> ....<snip>.


Meet Priyanka: Blockchain Expert ???

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby amar_p » 07 Jun 2020 22:36

Came across an interesting argument somewhere on yootyoob:

China or more exactly CCP will never engage in a full scale war and risk body bags coming back because as a nation that has adopted a forced one child policy for long, soldiers dying on the war front will lead to as many families losing the next generation completely. And no society will be able to tolerate losing the next gen, the families will revolt against the CCP having nothing to live for and this is a scenario the CCP is aware of and fears most.

Something all its neighbours should keep in mind.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Sravan » 07 Jun 2020 22:51

amar_p wrote:Came across an interesting argument somewhere on yootyoob:

China or more exactly CCP will never engage in a full scale war and risk body bags coming back because as a nation that has adopted a forced one child policy for long, soldiers dying on the war front will lead to as many families losing the next generation completely. And no society will be able to tolerate losing the next gen, the families will revolt against the CCP having nothing to live for and this is a scenario the CCP is aware of and fears most.

Something all its neighbours should keep in mind.


If that’s the case, why not invade and liberate Tibet.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby amar_p » 07 Jun 2020 22:59

Indeed, why not?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Sravan » 07 Jun 2020 23:25

amar_p wrote:Indeed, why not?


Ghar me guske marange

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 07 Jun 2020 23:33

amar_p wrote:Came across an interesting argument somewhere on yootyoob:

China or more exactly CCP will never engage in a full scale war and risk body bags coming back because as a nation that has adopted a forced one child policy for long, soldiers dying on the war front will lead to as many families losing the next generation completely. And no society will be able to tolerate losing the next gen, the families will revolt against the CCP having nothing to live for and this is a scenario the CCP is aware of and fears most.

Something all its neighbours should keep in mind.

CCP has been one of the most repressive regimes in killing and brutalising its own people (in sheer numbers it is at the top). Forget about great leap forward or Tiananmen square massacre, even the one child rule was enforced in some cases by literally killing babies - and this was less that ten years ago. Even in case of a war they will probably loose less people that all those sweetshop owners who have committed suicide while assembling iPhones. Let's not base our strategy on such drivel. Only reason they have not gone to war is that they have they have been mostly able to achieve their goals with out war.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ManuJ » 07 Jun 2020 23:42

amar_p wrote:Indeed, why not?

Could you please provide a few examples from modern history of a country attacking another country whose economy is 4 times larger and and whose military is equally strong at least, and being able to successfully and decisively win the war with large gains in territory?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ldev » 08 Jun 2020 00:03

ManuJ wrote:Could you please provide a few examples from modern history of a country attacking another country whose economy is 4 times larger and and whose military is equally strong at least, and being able to successfully and decisively win the war with large gains in territory?


You are going to hate me for this!! But Pakistan took over what is now POK and has successfully hung on to it for more than 70 years, inspite of the Indian economy now being 9x bigger.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Sanju » 08 Jun 2020 00:06

I am not sure whether one can look at things in a black and white fashion as 4 times the economy etc. There is the example of the Israelis against the Arabs wherein multiple countries were fighting against Israel. Or the Chinese against the Vietnamese in '79. What would count more in my calculations are if the soldiers have been blooded before and in this area, we are clearly ahead. At the same time we can never underestimate our enemies.

War doesn't have to be a full blown war, it can be limited/localised. However, one can't think like the Pakis and go kinetic thinking that it will be a limited war.

India will, if it decides so, have to go kinetic with the full belief that this could go the whole extent.

I am not one for nor against war, it should be the last option. I am fully convinced that we are in safe hands, both at the border and at the helm in New Delhi.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Sravan » 08 Jun 2020 00:13

Sanju wrote:I am not sure whether one can look at things in a black and white fashion as 4 times the economy etc. There is the example of the Israelis against the Arabs wherein multiple countries were fighting against Israel. Or the Chinese against the Vietnamese in '79. What would count more in my calculations are if the soldiers have been blooded before and in this area, we are clearly ahead. At the same time we can never underestimate our enemies.

War doesn't have to be a full blown war, it can be limited/localised. However, one can't think like the Pakis and go kinetic thinking that it will be a limited war.

India will, if it decides so, have to go kinetic with the full belief that this could go the whole extent.

I am not one for nor against war, it should be the last option. I am fully convinced that we are in safe hands, both at the border and at the helm in New Delhi.



How about the US attacking the British to declare independence. They allied with the French and took down the British.

Fortune favors the brave. If you have a strategic advantage and you don’t use it, there is no one to blame but yourself.

I rest my case


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