LOL. Btw, they sound like they want de-esculation on twitter. Very little counter from the 50-centers other than the Global Times. But even GT talks about needing to deal peacefully.RaviB wrote:People on Chinese social media are relying on DrAPR psyops account
Yes but this news seems uncorroborated rumor. Whatsapp forward has tell tale signs of trying to spin this as a fig-leaf.putnanja wrote:Altnews is a known left leaning site that was caught by many on SM for classifying unrelated incidents as hate crimes against Muslims & downplaying deliberate attack’s against Hindus as not hate crime . It’s by no means an unbiased fact checker.
Lohit wrote:
Seems this is fake news -
https://www.altnews.in/times-now-falls- ... -soldiers/
Bakshi sab should have known better, it is important that our leaders like him dont falls such things which ultimately end up creating a permanently "discredited" image like Pakistan.
If Chinese are doing what they need to do to overcome their weakness are we doing what is required at our end? We need huge numbers of MANPADS, Portable ATGM's and ULH. If the whole LAC lights up our artillery numbers are woefully inadequate. Here i am not even taking into equation any deployment that would be needed for a 2 front war if Pakistan is made to open up a front by the chinese.khan wrote:
It could all be an act to buy time, get more troops & acclimatize them. Xi can control *everything* in China. I wouldn't put it past him to try to lull the Indian side into a false sense of confidence.
We are not short of artillery. We are short of 155MM guns. Our mainstay is 105 & 120MM, with probably 300 155MM.Vips wrote:If Chinese are doing what they need to do to overcome their weakness are we doing what is required at our end? We need huge numbers of MANPADS, Portable ATGM's and ULH. If the whole LAC lights up our artillery numbers are woefully inadequate. Here i am not even taking into equation any deployment that would be needed for a 2 front war if Pakistan is made to open up a front by the chinese.khan wrote:
It could all be an act to buy time, get more troops & acclimatize them. Xi can control *everything* in China. I wouldn't put it past him to try to lull the Indian side into a false sense of confidence.
We are indeed short of artillery as our smaller caliber guns will be outranged by the high number of 155MM guns that can be deployed by the Chinese.nam wrote:We are not short of artillery. We are short of 155MM guns. Our mainstay is 105 & 120MM, with probably 300 155MM.Vips wrote:
If Chinese are doing what they need to do to overcome their weakness are we doing what is required at our end? We need huge numbers of MANPADS, Portable ATGM's and ULH. If the whole LAC lights up our artillery numbers are woefully inadequate. Here i am not even taking into equation any deployment that would be needed for a 2 front war if Pakistan is made to open up a front by the chinese.
If only Dhanush or ATAGS was couple of years earlier
A good read is the story of Zhenbao islands on Wiki. Chinese intentions remain a mystery to this daykhan wrote:The thing that makes me very nervous is the Chinese have chosen the time and place of this engagement - these are not stupid people we are dealing with, they too can do war games.
Completely agree saar. Retrograde brihaspati in uttarashadha is a sure sign of an impending war. May Maharudra protect our men and bless us with a resounding victory.Cain Marko wrote:So why is Modiji waiting for 4 more days before addressing the nation? What are they putting into place until that time? 21st is solar eclipse followed by devguru brihaspati transit to war sign dhanu in utrarashada - final victory?
When did the Chinese win a war other than 62?khan wrote:The thing that makes me very nervous is the Chinese have chosen the time and place of this engagement - these are not stupid people we are dealing with, they too can do war games.
Kalyani in a recent interview has said they have capacity to build 250 Bharat 52 guns per year year and can if required scale up rapidly.somdev wrote:During Kargil war Bharat Forge without even thinking of costing etc. manufactured 1 lakh of Bofors 155mm howitzers shells when the GOI requested them to do so. Petty politics has kept Kalyani's waiting on many products.Vips wrote:
We are indeed short of artillery as our smaller caliber guns will be outranged by the high number of 155MM guns that can be deployed by the Chinese.
OFB capacity to produce Dhanush is just 100 guns per year. My wish is for the Army to deploy the Kalyani developed Mounted gun 155MM (39 caliber) which is carried on a 4X4. This can be a big game changer with its fire power and shoot and scoot capability. Their 52 Caliber field gun was also tested by the Army last year.
@amar_p ji, if you find a better source(s) with references (as per Wikipedia policy, the sources have to be secondary sources, not primary sources), please do correct the inaccuracies in that page. If your reasonable edits are reverted, dispute on the talk page of the reverting editor as well as on the talk page of this page itself. These will remain there as long as the page exists or so I hope. Wikpedia and some editors there off have an anti-India bias. Those need to be pointed out, i.e. make these an albatross around their neck.amar_p wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_d ... s_of_India
I'm not sure how accurate this source is, is there a better source of our territorial claims wrt China?
Akshay sir,Akshay Kapoor wrote:I have been crying myself hoarse on twitter since April 'Please do not let soldiers patrol without weapons. Serves no tactical or strategic purpose'. When basics of soldiering are ignored because of faulty strategic appreciation then such tragedies are bound to occur.
We still continue to misread China
Here is my assessment
https://twitter.com/Ak5985965/status/12 ... 45442?s=20
Ramana sirramana wrote:Lot of folks confuse between strategy and tactics.
I think the existing ROE of no firearms had worked for many years. It would be a significant change to amend the ROE. One potential clue to the exponential increase in PLA belligerence in the last few weeks could be the new Commander of the Western Theater Commmand, a rising star in the PLA,( appointed sometime in May) and it is as such the right time to junk the old no-firearms within 2 km of the LAC rule:ks_sachin wrote:Ramana sirramana wrote:Lot of folks confuse between strategy and tactics.
So what was the tactical aim of this foolish decision?
What was the strategic aim that was sought to be achieved?
A rising star of the People’s Liberation Army has been sent to oversee the ground forces of the Western Theatre Command, where tensions are rising between China and India over border disputes.
Xu Qiling, former ground force commander of the Eastern Theatre Command, swapped posts with his counterpart He Weidong in the west, overseeing border areas in the Xinjiang and Tibet autonomous regions since last month, according to a report posted on the Western Theatre Command’s WeChat social media account.
“As tensions with India are escalating over border disputes, the Western Theatre Command needs a younger commander to lead frontier soldiers and officers in this current sensitive period,” a military insider, who requested anonymity, told the South China Morning Post.
Completely agree. Look at the way the US military folks are looking at this guy and sizing him up. We should have known that a young hot commander has come in as Western Theater Commander with a direct line to the CMC and therefore anticipate an uptick in aggression from the PLA.ks_sachin wrote: So a failure on our part to read the situation of which the personalities are a key part...
In January, the Chinese army deployed its new mountain tanks and howitzers to Tibet. It was an obvious show of force. India was the intended audience.
Five months later on Monday, Chinese forces killed 20 Indian soldiers in a skirmish along the disputed India-China border running through the Himalayas mountain range. Chinese troops reportedly used rocks and clubs.
Both sides rushed in reinforcements—roughly 10,000 troops on each side—beginning in May. But Beijing by then already had flexed its mountain muscles.
The January exercise involved Type 15 mountain tanks, PCL-181 self-propelled howitzers, helicopters and air-defense systems, many of them optimized for operations above 10,000 feet of altitude. “The weapons were specifically designed with advantages for plateau regions and can play important roles in safeguarding border areas,” Chinese state media explained.
Type 15s were still active in Tibet as recently as Sunday. China’s heavier Type 99 tanks also are in the region. India has positioned its own T-90MS and T-72M1 tanks near the Line of Actual Control.
The Type 15, a Norinco product, first appeared in 2011. The 33-ton tank weighs around half as much as a typical main battle tank does. Its armor is thinner and it carries a 105-millimeter gun rather than the 120- or 125-millimeter cannons that many heavier tanks carry. This light build makes it more suitable for high-altitude operations.
The wheeled PCL-181 with its 155-millimeter gun likewise weighs just 25 tons, many tons less than what a tracked howitzer weighs.
Rising Star has begun his tenure with 43 casualties of PLA as compared to 20 casualties of the enemy. That shall be greatly appreciated in the Corridors of Beijing.ldev wrote:I think the existing ROE of no firearms had worked for many years. It would be a significant change to amend the ROE. One potential clue to the exponential increase in PLA belligerence in the last few weeks could be the new Commander of the Western Theater Commmand, a rising star in the PLA,( appointed sometime in May) and it is as such the right time to junk the old no-firearms within 2 km of the LAC rule:ks_sachin wrote: Ramana sir
So what was the tactical aim of this foolish decision?
What was the strategic aim that was sought to be achieved?
A rising star of the People’s Liberation Army has been sent to oversee the ground forces of the Western Theatre Command, where tensions are rising between China and India over border disputes.
Xu Qiling, former ground force commander of the Eastern Theatre Command, swapped posts with his counterpart He Weidong in the west, overseeing border areas in the Xinjiang and Tibet autonomous regions since last month, according to a report posted on the Western Theatre Command’s WeChat social media account.
“As tensions with India are escalating over border disputes, the Western Theatre Command needs a younger commander to lead frontier soldiers and officers in this current sensitive period,” a military insider, who requested anonymity, told the South China Morning Post.
The below is an excerpt from the earlier SCMP picture I posted:samirdiw wrote:WIth claiming the galvan valley china is essentially telling India "We dont care what the f you call LAC is. The LAC is where we set foot in and it could be the entire ladakh tomorrow. We have already done this a million times. You guys nowadays dont even speak about Aksai or any areas captured in 62 and later. At most you ask us to move a few steps back. We will keep moving forward, then call for talks and now that's the new LAC.Ball is in your court we have now claimed something that we didn't do before. What are you going to claim or try to take of ours that we controlled before?"
Bottom line is he is Xi's hand picked man to tackle India. There is no no longer any doubt in my mind that this new hardline PLA stance is orchestrated by the new Theater Commander all across the India China border. It is no longer about "different perceptions" about where the LAC is. It is China's effort to push India to either fight or become subservient. And the timing is due to the imminent completion of the many many border road projects.Xu was one of the young generals promoted by Xi, who also chairs the all-powerful Central Military Commission, after Xi took the helm of the PLA in late 2012.
Xu has experience at four of the PLA’s five theatre commands. He was promoted to lieutenant general last year, one year after being sent to the head the ground forces in the Eastern Theatre Command, which oversees the security of Shanghai, Jiangsu, Zhejiang, Anhui, Fujian and Jiangxi provinces, as well as the East China Sea.
The point is be prepared for war this time. As to whether he "tactically brilliant or a possible Musharaff", only time will tell. And let us not commit the mistake of under-estimating the enemy nor of course of overestimating the enemy. You are dealing with a country that has vastly larger domestic military industrial base but with infrastructure shortcomings for moving reserves from deep in China to Tibet.Sanju wrote:Just because a "hot shot" young commander has come and wants to earn his spurs, doesn't mean that India is going to sit back and let him do it.
Wonder what battle experience this commander has?
New Tactics may look fine, but what control do you have over something you started if the enemy reacts strongly and pays you back in your coin with compound interest?
Tactically brilliant, strategically a possible Musharaff?
Are you talking about Galwan valley or somewhere else?fanne wrote: ...
We took option 5 below.
...
5) As a breach of agreement, we overtake a contested land (just that contested land, where both are present, we evict and capture, they can of course capture back if they are willing to make a large sacrifice in dead bodies. We may decide to up the ante at that point and deny them that victory and keep the land (essentially accept more dead bodies on our side as well as operations continue). Essentially, punishing PLA every time they breach an agreement by taking a contested land elsewhere (where it is convenient for us and we have element of surprise) and keeping it. PLA then has two choices, fight with more dead (now we are entrenched and no surprise left) or behave and do not breach else where. This option looks like workable, short of a full fledged war.
...
That's why a question mark at the end. It wasn't a statement. Now if you take the following into account, you would probably agree with me that we are "prepared for war this time".ldev wrote:The point is be prepared for war this time. As to whether he "tactically brilliant or a possible Musharaff", only time will tell. And let us not commit the mistake of under-estimating the enemy nor of course of overestimating the enemy. You are dealing with a country that has vastly larger domestic military industrial base but with infrastructure shortcomings for moving reserves from deep in China to Tibet.Sanju wrote:Just because a "hot shot" young commander has come and wants to earn his spurs, doesn't mean that India is going to sit back and let him do it.
Wonder what battle experience this commander has?
New Tactics may look fine, but what control do you have over something you started if the enemy reacts strongly and pays you back in your coin with compound interest?
Tactically brilliant, strategically a possible Musharaff?
Additional troops rushed to the LACRishi_Tri wrote: Rising Star has begun his tenure with 43 casualties of PLA as compared to 20 casualties of the enemy. That shall be greatly appreciated in the Corridors of Beijing.
Gosthana not Aksai ChinNRao wrote:Contested? Not from an Indian point of view.
Aksai Chin is Indian. So, recovering any land is India's right. So, as an example, up to Finger 8, India can recover that land without intruding.
And, Tibet is free. Recovering land there is also within rights. So, beyond Finger 8, again, that is not intrusion either.
There is nothing contested. China is being evicted. Legally.
China should not oppose their eviction.
Its only you who is claiming the PLA casualties to be "nonsense" on multiple threads. There are several sources Indian and foreign including China's own mouthpiece Global Times and the usual anti-India BBC that have reported there were chinese casualties. Whether it was 30,35,43 or 90 no one knows and no one ever will. You are talking about a country which until this week claimed there were no corona cases outside wuhan province even during the peak ,so silly to expect china to behave like an open, transparent democracy .Jay wrote:Rishi_Tri wrote: Rising Star has begun his tenure with 43 casualties of PLA as compared to 20 casualties of the enemy. That shall be greatly appreciated in the Corridors of Beijing.
Can we stop quoting this nonsense about 43 causalities from PLA. There is not one qualified Indian source which gave this number out.
Rishi_Tri wrote: Rising Star has begun his tenure with 43 casualties of PLA as compared to 20 casualties of the enemy. That shall be greatly appreciated in the Corridors of Beijing.---43 people are not confirmed and you can bet that what is spun to the the Chinese populace will be a very different.
2016 - To Date - Roads built right to China Border across the length of the border. China keeps murmuring.---But Chinece have overall better infra.
June'2017 - Doklam takes place.
August'19 - Article 370 abrogated. China protests change of status. Tries to raise issue in UNSC. Thwarted by diplomatic push. - What bearing does this have on what is happening now?
August'19 to Date - Neelam Valley continuously pounded. Bofors also used. CPEC projects (Chinese assets in Pakistan) under threat.--That has not stopped them from what they are doing now has it?
February'20 - India bans all flights from China in response to China virus.---That is something even if we were the friendliest of countries we would have done no?
March'20 - to Date - India choses to build Medical capacity (PPE / N95 Masks / Masks / China Virus testing kits) within the country and succeeds.---Our strategic failure is it not that such basics come from China.
April'20 - India bans automatic route for FDI / FII / PNotes from nations that it shares land border. Aimed at China. China protests.--Too little too late.
April'20 - India returns medical kits received from China.---Why did we need from them in the first place. Strategic failure on our part.
May'20 - India starts Self Reliance initiative. Obvious immediate loser - China.---What is on the ground evidence of this sol called self reliance initiative? WE cannot get small arms indegenously!!!!
May'20 - India part of the comity of nations that calls for investigation into origins of China virus. India assumes executive leadership of WHO through Dr Harshvardhan.---Everyone else had done that. What makes us unique and where is it going? What will Dr HArshvardhan be able to do?/b]
May'20 - Lipulekh is declared operational.--So what has that got us in the current stand-off?
This is not over, there is no need to whine. Modi himself went on TV & committed to getting back every square inch of land while the Chinese are burying it on page 6 of their local papers.ks_sachin wrote:
The fact of the matter is that we have reacted.
What have we won when we have lost territory?
Alright, quote a trusted source which lists these 43 dead then. If you believe Global Times, then I have a bridge to sell you. Point is, folks like you are fixated with the number 43 and declare that since 43 > 20, we can claim victory. This is extremely shortsighted to get fixated on a numbers game with China. And who is asking China to give the numbers? Certainly not me and I would not trust anything that comes from their mouths and mouthpieces. Your point about Corona is OT for this thread.Ambar wrote:
Its only you who is claiming the PLA casualties to be "nonsense" on multiple threads. There are several sources Indian and foreign including China's own mouthpiece Global Times and the usual anti-India BBC that have reported there were chinese casualties. Whether it was 30,35,43 or 90 no one knows and no one ever will. You are talking about a country which until this week claimed there were no corona cases outside wuhan province even during the peak ,so silly to expect china to behave like an open, transparent democracy .
