India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

khan · Post by **khan** » 19 Jun 2020 01:22

samirdiw wrote:
Thanks for the response. So Vajpayeeji was the culprit.... I guess his hands were tied due to the war.

So now we have these 500 structures and preventing our troops from patrolling. They have made their stake and ball is on our court to remove them?

Can we land troops on the other side and force them to surrender by moving in from both sides? Not sure if we dont have the capability and will to act then what leverage our ecm has in the talks.

Sorry I am not able to see what you guys are seeing.

I am not a military expert, so I am just regurgitating what I hear from others, but what I hear is, having 500 people/structures/whatever concentrated in the open like that makes them very vulnerable to artillery fire. It’s not a very defendable position for a serious assault. For a fist-fight, it allows them to surge people quickly, but it doesn’t make sense for anything else that I can make sense of.

The people on the ridge on top of the Fingers could be there to act like spotters for the Chinese artillery or rain fire down on our boys on the foot of finger 4 right below them. Not sure how the Chinese plan on keeping the people on top of the fingers supplied when things get serious.

This is a very ametauer take. The Chinese have surprised me by being able to move more people than they were supposed to, into places that aren’t supposed to be able to support as many people as the pictures show and I think they are building roads/structures where they shouldn’t be able to.

Anyone who knows more should feel free to correct me.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 19 Jun 2020 01:23

Well, the official statement said "all our men are accounted for", which meant more things than what most people assumed

Assuming the news is accurate, its good news for us and for the whole shebang thing we have going on.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 19 Jun 2020 01:26

Philip wrote:
....Former reputed diplomat Nirupama Rao has made 2 v.important points.When Rajiv G went yo Beijing,Deng Tsiao Peng told him the the " Asian century would be incomplete without India." She said that today there is NO mention of India by china at all.So much for Modiji's China outreach!

You old "indira is india, india is indira" congis worshippers of dieNasty.

So RAJIV GOOD, CONGRESS GOOD
MODI BAD, BJP BAD
and why?
because Xingping isn't praising Modi like Deng praised rajiv

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 19 Jun 2020 01:27

Iyersan wrote:https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... ssion=true
Three days after clashes in the Galwan Valley of Ladakh left 20 Indian soldiers dead, the Chinese on Thursday evening released 10 Indian Army personnel, including a Lieutenant Colonel and three Majors, from their custody.

A security source told The Hindu that all 10 persons were released around 5 p.m. after an agreement was reached at the Major General-level talks on Wednesday evening and they were returned unharmed.

BS - pure BS

Iyersan · Post by **Iyersan** » 19 Jun 2020 01:30

Raveen wrote:
Iyersan wrote:https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... ssion=true
Three days after clashes in the Galwan Valley of Ladakh left 20 Indian soldiers dead, the Chinese on Thursday evening released 10 Indian Army personnel, including a Lieutenant Colonel and three Majors, from their custody.

A security source told The Hindu that all 10 persons were released around 5 p.m. after an agreement was reached at the Major General-level talks on Wednesday evening and they were returned unharmed.
BS - pure BS

Shiv aroor just now confirmed my tweet

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/12 ... 93440?s=19

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 19 Jun 2020 01:33

Iyersan wrote:https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... ssion=true
Three days after clashes in the Galwan Valley of Ladakh left 20 Indian soldiers dead, the Chinese on Thursday evening released 10 Indian Army personnel, including a Lieutenant Colonel and three Majors, from their custody.

A security source told The Hindu that all 10 persons were released around 5 p.m. after an agreement was reached at the Major General-level talks on Wednesday evening and they were returned unharmed.

If India does not push any further on Galwan, Pangong Tso and Hot Springs then this information is likely accurate. It will be somewhat similar to when Abhinandan was released no further retaliation happened after that. Not that it is going to repair the longer term relationship, but FWIW the immediate crisis is likely behind us. Shiv Aroor had hinted at this in a cryptic tweet yesterday.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 19 Jun 2020 01:35

I am not very happy if war happens now, I don't like going into war without 123 Tejas, 900 Arjuns, 3600 Dhanush & 180 LCHs.

nam · Post by **nam** » 19 Jun 2020 01:36

Iyersan wrote:https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... ssion=true
Three days after clashes in the Galwan Valley of Ladakh left 20 Indian soldiers dead, the Chinese on Thursday evening released 10 Indian Army personnel, including a Lieutenant Colonel and three Majors, from their custody.

A security source told The Hindu that all 10 persons were released around 5 p.m. after an agreement was reached at the Major General-level talks on Wednesday evening and they were returned unharmed.

So this was the reason for silence from MoD or MoFA for almost 24 hours. And PM's warning on TV. The silence was to get the men back.

Col with the other officers were ambushed and the jawans then fought with the Chinese to after the officers were ambushed.

We need to give out a warning for the PLA to vacate the lake or face retaliation.

Larry Walker · Post by **Larry Walker** » 19 Jun 2020 01:38

I still can't think of what China will achieve even if it captures entire Pangong lake ?? What is even a tactical advantage of occupying a land that hardly provides any gains and always risk retaliation coming down from the mountains. Need some help to understand what is China's objective in fighting for Indian portion of Pangong lake. The way they have concentrated, any counter assult will lead to huge casualties in their side since they don't have any phsyical space to manoeuvre such a large force, even pull back will be open season interdiction as it will be along a thin flat piece of land. So even if the Indian and Chinese armies clash along the lake and inflict massive casualties bon each other, it does not change anything even on tactical level. I am still at loss to understand any objectives of the Chinese.

Iyersan · Post by **Iyersan** » 19 Jun 2020 01:40

We are officially in de escalation now. I will shift to COVID issues. We can close this discussion

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 19 Jun 2020 01:40

Iyersan wrote:https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... ssion=true
Three days after clashes in the Galwan Valley of Ladakh left 20 Indian soldiers dead, the Chinese on Thursday evening released 10 Indian Army personnel, including a Lieutenant Colonel and three Majors, from their custody.

A security source told The Hindu that all 10 persons were released around 5 p.m. after an agreement was reached at the Major General-level talks on Wednesday evening and they were returned unharmed.

WTF, so the earlier statement was just wordplay ('all troops accounted for')

- so my earlier speculation was right, the talks were mostly "hostage negotiations".

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 19 Jun 2020 01:41

I'm afraid any more demands can't be made, because the release of our men has likely happened after India accepted some terms & conditions. Which would have included that both sides will cool off for now.

I don't think any territorial or claimed lines concessions were made by us or them.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Jun 2020 01:44

We have 150 guests in addition to at least 20 members viewing the Mil Forum. Show some better perspective.

If this was 1999, this forum would have lost Kargil in May itself.

NRao,

The situation is tactical and you are giving Nehruvian Global factors suggestions.
Will any of those change the LAC situation?

Cheaper in what sense?
No Modi is not Nehru. Wuhan spirit bought us time.

Also, Philip is right about the need to get Russia and France on our side.
The US is any way in its own slugfest with China.

It is not all cricket. Hit out and get out ok in cricket for you can play another game.
Not an option here.

And if you can't stand the heat please logout and observe.

I told on twitter also, operations are going on yet many stalwarts were in volcano mode.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 19 Jun 2020 01:46

So the PLA is now officially at Finger 4.
There will be di-engagement at Hot Springs.
Does the PLA continue to stay put at Galwan which caused the confrontation? Probably yes. At least on the heights, though they have been cleared from the valley itself, notwithstanding their claims.

So net net, India lost 20 men and Finger 4 to 8 at Pangong Tso
Galwan situation still not clear
China lost 35-43 men.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Jun 2020 01:48

nam wrote:
Iyersan wrote:https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... ssion=true
Three days after clashes in the Galwan Valley of Ladakh left 20 Indian soldiers dead, the Chinese on Thursday evening released 10 Indian Army personnel, including a Lieutenant Colonel and three Majors, from their custody.

A security source told The Hindu that all 10 persons were released around 5 p.m. after an agreement was reached at the Major General-level talks on Wednesday evening and they were returned unharmed.
So this was the reason for silence from MoD or MoFA for almost 24 hours. And PM's warning on TV. The silence was to get the men back.

Col with the other officers were ambushed and the jawans then fought with the Chinese to after the officers were ambushed.

We need to give out a warning for the PLA to vacate the lake or face retaliation.

nam you are almost 15 years on this Forum. Did you need special info to understand this?
Sad many keyboard ninjas went ballistic.
MoFus wanted to execute the POWs.
There was a power play to get them back alive.
Yes, this was like Kargil with our soldiers captured(Captain Kalia and his troop) but the outcome is they are back alive.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 19 Jun 2020 01:49

Deans wrote:
amar_p wrote:
Deans ji, if you look at the mobilisation level of the Chinese, the report that the "tent" we destroyed at PP14 was an "arctic tent", I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese set up all weather camps a few kms from LAC on their side on the nearest available flat lands. It would mean building bases like the ones on Antarctica, or digging tunnels using expendable slave labour drawn from Uighur camps. They have the means and the will. Your assumption may end up surprising us once again when we go up next spring and see that they are already there, closer than before.
I understand your point, but its not just about infra - though google earth/ maps (which I have been following for 2 years now), shows only a fraction of the infrastructure to house troops that we have. The Chinese have to even get water from a long distance away. More than the weather, its the tolerance of the body to prolonged exposure to high altitude. We learnt how to manage the hard way, by decades on the Siachen glacier, or North Sikkim. No one in the Chinese force has ever been in combat or served at high altitude. Over time, people inexperienced in both make mistakes.

Honestly I don't get why this is a big problem for the PLA, especially if they are not going to any actual fighting - (1) they are good at building, if they stay for extended period they will create permanent infrastructure that they can use in the future (2) This can be a learning experience for them (3) They have permanently changed the status of the "grey" zones into "red" zones - I don't see us crossing F4 ever again - they can slowly thin down the troops eventually.

samirdiw · Post by **samirdiw** » 19 Jun 2020 01:49

Wait so they changed the status from 5-8 from disputed to permanently under their control and everything is fine..wtf? That's all it takes... move some trucks forward, capture some troops and we are done?

nam · Post by **nam** » 19 Jun 2020 01:49

Until the PLA is on the Pangong lake heights with the status quo changed, we are not seeing the end.

After the death of our men, we cannot let the Chini squat on the lake.

Let's see how it goes. The Chini built up on the lake does not look temporary.

nam · Post by **nam** » 19 Jun 2020 01:51

ramana wrote: nam you are almost 15 years on this Forum. Did you need special info to understand this?
Sad many keyboard ninjas went ballistic.
MoFus wanted to execute the POWs.
There was a power play to get them back alive.
Yes, this was like Kargil with our soldiers captured(Captain Kalia and his troop) but the outcome is they are back alive.

Just trying to explain the initial silence. If it was made public, it would caused tremendous pressure on GoI. Good thing they are back and GoI took the right step.

Now time to kick the PLA out of finger 4.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 19 Jun 2020 01:52

samirdiw wrote:Wait so they changed the status from 5-8 from disputed to permanently under their control and everything is fine..wtf? That's all it takes... move some trucks forward, capture some troops and we are done?

You cannot rectify the positions of the last 20 years in one day.

Iyersan · Post by **Iyersan** » 19 Jun 2020 01:56

nam wrote:
ramana wrote: nam you are almost 15 years on this Forum. Did you need special info to understand this?
Sad many keyboard ninjas went ballistic.
MoFus wanted to execute the POWs.
There was a power play to get them back alive.
Yes, this was like Kargil with our soldiers captured(Captain Kalia and his troop) but the outcome is they are back alive.
Just trying to explain the initial silence. If it was made public, it would caused tremendous pressure on GoI. Good thing they are back and GoI took the right step.

Now time to kick the PLA out of finger 4.

I dont beleive GOI will confront. We will now have a new status quo. RM going for victory day parade in Moscow on 23 June. It means we have already okayed at GoI levels the chinese peoposal. China has 8 to 4 fingers

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 19 Jun 2020 01:56

If they already held the control from fingers 4 to 8 after Kargil other than a new camp near finger 4 what else do they hold ?

gauravsh · Post by **gauravsh** » 19 Jun 2020 01:58

Aren't hostage negotiations give and take ? What did we end up giving ? It will be very demeaning if de-escalate from here.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Jun 2020 01:58

ldev, What is the problem? Why you want to claim a loss when its a victory for our troops.
IA has cleared out all the fingers. Sirjap is a Chinese base. Still with them'.
Galwan Valley clash is where the PLA had to evacuate.

Modi hatred should not transfer to the soldiers.
Then we arre no diffrent than Shukla and his ilk.

Also:

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 7826900993
Twitter
Vishnu Som
Senior Army officials say Indian Army casualty count will not rise beyond 20. 76 officers and men in the hospital. Some will rejoin in less than a week. The others in about 15 days.

khan · Post by **khan** » 19 Jun 2020 01:59

Iyersan wrote: I dont beleive GOI will confront. We will now have a new status quo. RM going for victory day parade in Moscow on 23 June. It means we have already okayed at GoI levels the chinese peoposal. China has 8 to 4 fingers

IA can still keep the stand-off going, force the Chinese to man it in the winter & at the first sign of weakness, send people over with clubs & chains.

samirdiw · Post by **samirdiw** » 19 Jun 2020 02:00

Man even that moron Trump knew from day 1 that his power rested on hard power and pumped in funds to defense like crazy.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Jun 2020 02:01

Iyersan Want to bet?
OK.
All these jingos put $100$ to be donated to Army Jawans Welfare fund if GOI does fight back.

How many of the experts here willing to take this on?

Leonard · Post by **Leonard** » 19 Jun 2020 02:01

Some MORE details -- probably closest "description" as to what happened ..

Now - IDK -- who or what "easternlink" group publishing this is ..

https://theeasternlink.com/un-chief-urg ... dia-clash/

The FIGHT was taken across the PERCIEVED -- Chinese LAC, and many Chin's were sent to meet the 72 hoor's

Question: Do we need to do BEAN counting OR my di$k is longer than Chin's Di$k ?

Here's a SUMMARY:

1. Chin's DID a surprise attack on UNARMED negotiators -- Thought AH SO -- we have taught the IA a lesson ..

2. What the Fu$er's -- DIDN'T accept/think is that the IA boys will be BACK with much BIGGER di$k's and make Chop Suey and Tossed Salad of the Chin's in THEIR own Backyard at NIGHT even with all their BullSh$t gadgets -- where they were DEPLOYED in strength ..

Balakot rings a BELL anybody ?

Now the Chin's will think TWICE about a sneaky attack, because the IA can return the FAVOR -- with Compound Interest ..

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 19 Jun 2020 02:03

I posted this many pages ago. That we should let them wander in, take some prisoners and then we can talk.
Looks like the Chinese heard it better than IA.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 19 Jun 2020 02:03

Ambar wrote:If they already held the control from fingers 4 to 8 after Kargil other than a new camp near finger 4 what else do they hold ?

You are correct. The Chinese were serious about trying to exercise control. They first built a dirt track during Kargil to Finger 4 and then later they blacktopped it.

Indian patrols were hampered by the rock face almost to the water's edge at Finger 4. If India was serious about exercising it's claim it should have blasted that rock away clearing space for a proper road which only runs upto the ITBP camp at Finger 3 currently. That way Indian vehicles could have also gone upto Finger 8. So over a 20 year period the Chinese gradually cemented their claim so frankly this last step of establishing a formal camp at Finger 4 merely formalizes their take-over.

Larry Walker · Post by **Larry Walker** » 19 Jun 2020 02:04

ramana wrote:ldev, What is the problem? Why you want to claim a loss when its a victory for our troops.
IA has cleared out all the fingers. Sirjap is a Chinese base. Still with them'.
Galwan Valley clash is where the PLA had to evacuate.

Modi hatred should not transfer to the soldiers.
Then we arre no diffrent than Shukla and his ilk.

Also:

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 7826900993
Twitter
Vishnu Som
Senior Army officials say Indian Army casualty count will not rise beyond 20. 76 officers and men in the hospital. Some will rejoin in less than a week. The others in about 15 days.

What do you mean by all fingers ?? Have we pushed back Chinese beyond Finger-8 ? Or you mean that Chinese had pushed forward beyond Finger-4 and now we have reclaimed back till Finger-4 ?? Every channel and GoI outlet kept saying that Chinese never entered Indian territory - so was that all just gup ??

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 19 Jun 2020 02:05

ldev wrote:
samirdiw wrote:Wait so they changed the status from 5-8 from disputed to permanently under their control and everything is fine..wtf? That's all it takes... move some trucks forward, capture some troops and we are done?
You cannot rectify the positions of the last 20 years in one day.

Correct. Both the Vajpayee and MMS governments collectively ignored the situation. We get to know more about this since satellite pictures are all over the internet.

Aside from the GoI reducing Chinese imports, it needs to pass a law that will forever ban Chinese investment in infrastructure and critical industries. This includes cheap solar panels and lithium ion battery imports.

samirdiw · Post by **samirdiw** » 19 Jun 2020 02:06

ramana wrote:Iyersan Want to bet?
OK.
All these jingos put $100$ to be donated to Army Jawans Welfare fund if GOI does fight back.

How many of the experts here willing to take this on?

If GOI gets back 4-8 and has the road dismantled, I will donate $100.

nam · Post by **nam** » 19 Jun 2020 02:07

Iyersan wrote:I dont beleive GOI will confront. We will now have a new status quo. RM going for victory day parade in Moscow on 23 June. It means we have already okayed at GoI levels the chinese peoposal. China has 8 to 4 fingers

I don't know if GoI will confront, but it cannot allow the PLA squat on the lake. So far it was trying to remove them by talks.

Now by the death of our soldiers, GoI cannot give the excuse that we are talking. But if they want to talk, GoI has to have a deadline. It cannot keep on talking for ever.

If GoI has to confront, it needs a solid narrative. Now every tom dick & harry has seen satellite images of massive changes done by PLA on Finger 4. GoI should now release satellite images of PLA grab of Finger 4. Before & After images.

GoI will ask for status quo to be restored. If the world cannot convince China to restore, we will retaliate. A redo of Kargil.

Iyersan · Post by **Iyersan** » 19 Jun 2020 02:08

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/12 ... 17569?s=19
I dont know why i couldnt post this. Our men fought well
Given how the Indian teams were outnumbered, it’s surprising these numbers weren’t way, way more. Over those hours of bloodletting on Monday, there were stupefying acts of bravery against a treacherous adversary that respects nothing but might. You’ll hear those stories soon.

nam · Post by **nam** » 19 Jun 2020 02:09

I say it again, GoI should do a presser with the satellite images of PLA build up at Finger 4. Show the before & after images.

Tell the world it has changed the status quo. China CANNOT claim this place under it's control.

That is the whole point. There is nothing to prove Finger 4 was under Chinese control.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 19 Jun 2020 02:09

Iyersan wrote:https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/12 ... 17569?s=19
I dont know why i couldnt post this. Our men fought well
Given how the Indian teams were outnumbered, it’s surprising these numbers weren’t way, way more. Over those hours of bloodletting on Monday, there were stupefying acts of bravery against a treacherous adversary that respects nothing but might. You’ll hear those stories soon.

+100.

Very brave men.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Jun 2020 02:11

All the naysayers are in that business.
All fingers means all fingers.

I don't type waste words.
Can check my 20 years on Forum.
Iyersan, Col Babu did fighting like a legend.

Won't see such a warrior in a few generations.
nam screw the naysayers.
Govt is not in the business of pressers.
Sick of all these OSINT folks who want to imitate Mihir Shah without the finesse.

khan · Post by **khan** » 19 Jun 2020 02:11

Leonard wrote:Some MORE details -- probably closest "description" as to what happened ..

Now - IDK -- who or what "easternlink" group publishing this is ..

https://theeasternlink.com/un-chief-urg ... dia-clash/

The FIGHT was taken across the PERCIEVED -- Chinese LAC, and many Chin's were sent to meet the 72 hoor's

Question: Do we need to do BEAN counting OR my di$k is longer than Chin's Di$k ?

Here's a SUMMARY:

1. Chin's DID a surprise attack on UNARMED negotiators -- Thought AH SO -- we have taught the IA a lesson ..

2. What the Fu$er's -- DIDN'T accept/think is that the IA boys will be BACK with much BIGGER di$k's and make Chop Suey and Tossed Salad of the Chin's in THEIR own Backyard at NIGHT even with all their BullSh$t gadgets -- where they were DEPLOYED in strength ..

Balakot rings a BELL anybody ?

Now the Chin's will think TWICE about a sneaky attack, because the IA can return the FAVOR -- with Compound Interest ..

I agree with that retired General in Leh. I was watching some talking head former General on TV, and he was talking about how they would always record the Chinese to make sure they would keep their commitments etc. It was pretty nauseating, as if an army general has to act like a lawyer to keep the peace.

IMO, the ROE should be changed so, at the slightest irregularity, IA can to pound them with whatever they want.

Kati · Post by **Kati** » 19 Jun 2020 02:15

Suraj wrote:
suryag wrote:Nrao Sir look at it the other way, what if 60billion instead of going out is inside the country ? I dont care how rich PRC is I care about my money and how I spend it
NRao's argument is the same as 'it's an inhospitable terrain where not a blade of grass grows' . Nehruvian like in lack of understanding of value.

Out of that seemingly small percentage, we give them their third biggest trade surplus, not counting HK which is basically a transshipment port for them. The biggest is US, and the second is EU combined. Two entities with nominal GDPs 5x of ours .

China surplus:
1. USA $275 billion
2. EU $180 billion
3. India $60 billion

We're an enormous source of cheap wealth gain for them. Think the Chinese don't care ? I'll very happily take a bet for how they respond if we cut $50 billion of that trade imbalance a year.

NRao's bet: they won't care, they can find $60 billion behind their sofa easily
My bet: they'll start conciliatory talk and beg a long time before the deficit is cut by $50 billion

Sir, how do we take this argument to the big retailers?
I see about 90% os the wares in Big Bazar are from China. All the cheap equipments (rice cooker, iron, etc) under the "Koroyo" brand are essentially Chinese made by the NoKo labor. Can we start a signature campaign to name and shame these big retailers? In Bharat publicly naming and shaming is a big thing, and these retailers can be put on spot for importing from the aggressor who are killing our jawans.