India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

[abhik]

Btw I am prepared to wait out a month when everyone has forgotten about it assuming the worst and Chinese would have been convinced that all this was pacify our home public and we had planned nothing ( after getting their reports from their paid lakeys in media and political circles)

That would be the perfect time to execute whatever we planned. Lull the enemy into a sense of complacency and then strike with all effort possible within shortest amount of time when they least expect it. Maybe even invite them for talks/disengagement while we silently execute our plan.

But all of this is coming from a noob or keyboard warrior. Professionals in charge of the situation are 100x times better than what I can think of. So let's watch patiently because we already know that their intentions are good and unlike Cong and Commies they don't want to deliberately hurt India.

We shouldn't assume that the PLA is done with whatever they were planning, One hopes we have come out of the reacting mode and have started taking proactive decisions.

[Larry Walker]

There must be a valley from our side, which allows us to bypass the fingers directly in to Sirijap?

I would love to see the reaction on Chini faces, if we land up on North of Sirijap.

That is why they have built-up in Chushul. Flanking of Sirijap is possible if you go through Chushul, but Chinese have gamed that and are heavily deployed there.

[khan]

Farmer-warrior-hermit is saying that LOC will be settled before LAC. Take it for what it’s worth. The good thing is 5 years of artillery pounding the Pakistani’s must have degraded them.

[Larry Walker]

We shouldn't assume that the PLA is done with whatever they were planning, One hopes we have come out of the reacting mode and have started taking proactive decisions.

My opinion is that Depsang is the main Chinese gameplan, rest all is just clutter to divert resources and mask their main gameplan. And they are interested specifically in Depsang because they want to secure KKH. Now question is why would IA threaten or even use KKH, unless.there is a plan for GB. Everything points towards that India is about to operationalize it's plan form retaking PoK and GB and Chinese are trying their best to help their bitch survive.

[AshishA]

Btw is whole of galwan valley Indian right? Then why is Google maps showing it as part of Hotan Prefecture? Is Google appeasing China?

[Aditya_V]

After 1962 only upto pp14 has been in our control, we lost 34 soldiers in Galwan in 1962.

[khan]

Btw is whole of galwan valley Indian right? Then why is Google maps showing it as part of Hotan Prefecture? Is Google appeasing China?

No, a part of Galwan valley is in Chinese territory (and it’s undisputed).

[nam]

There must be a valley from our side, which allows us to bypass the fingers directly in to Sirijap?

I would love to see the reaction on Chini faces, if we land up on North of Sirijap.

That is why they have built-up in Chushul. Flanking of Sirijap is possible if you go through Chushul, but Chinese have gamed that and are heavily deployed there.

I am talking about coming from the North.

From the South you have to cross the lake.

[Larry Walker]

Chinese are.provoking us in unchallenged areas so that we have to bring our reserves forward and deplete those from being accrued on our Western front. Areas where LAC was disputed already has enough IA resources allocated to take care of any contingencies.

[nam]

Btw is whole of galwan valley Indian right? Then why is Google maps showing it as part of Hotan Prefecture? Is Google appeasing China?

No, a part of Galwan valley is in Chinese territory (and it’s undisputed).

Well it is in Aksi Chin.. so disputed territory.

However on the Chinese side of LAC. That is undisputed.

[Kamran Husain]

No more of this please.

If one is upset with the Govt of the day, please run silent, run deep as the IN submariners say. We can't be seen to do politicking, even if that was not the intent anyhow, during the course of a conflict. The PRC deeply monitors and encourages such efforts, and we have to nip it in the bud.

Post conflict, you can exercise all the right to dissent and ask for any corrective measures. But during the conflict, request you to to hold the course.

Mod note

[khan]

I think GOI’s communication strategy is good. If they say too much, then they betray to the Chinese where we think our weak spots are.

Everything you say can be used against you - in a situation like this, where there is a lot of unpredictability, it’s best to stay quiet.

If GOI says anything of value, the Chinese could use it to embarrass GOI or read signals into what GOI is really thinking.

GOI is playing 4-D chess, where there is a lot of bluff and bluster on both sides, it’s best to start quiet.

[Larry Walker]

This is RaGa level of ranting. I don't know how one can in normal course assume that a border where no shots were fired since last 40 years will have 100 fatalities in one night due to warlike violence. You could have expected these numbers on LoC, but not on LAC.

[nam]

GoI should highlight the status quo change done by the Chinese on the lake.. however it is a double edged sword. It will shown as Chinese captured Indian territory and GoI will be forced to use military means.

This is one of the reason PM explicitly said there are no Chinese in Indian territory in the Galwan region. Enemy on Indian land is an emotional and explosive issue.

Having said that, GoI cannot be allowed to sweep Chinese moves under the carpet. We need to do Salami in another region as tit for tat, WITHOUT triggering a war, just like the Chinese.

[yensoy]

After Balakot, when our officer was captured by Pakistan we made a hue and cry about it, here 10 of our soldiers were captured and for 3 days we heard nothing from the government.

I think you have raised good points and voices like yours deserve to stay on the forum.

Fact is that a lot of military, geopolitical and national security issues are discussed in private, with key opposition leaders taken into confidence and secrecy expected in return. Politically, things have devolved badly and divisions are becoming so deep that people are placing their enmity with the opposite side at a higher order of importance than the outside enemies. This is not a good sign and a repetition of history of centuries past. Social media has made these divisions 10 times as deep. Having a single national broadcaster did ensure a national vision and focus but we are never going back there. I hope sooner or later some kind of consensus will emerge on national security with detrimental self-serving politics removed.

As for Wingco Abhi, his photos and videos were leaked by the Pakis in all their wisdom. This also saved Abhi's life - otherwise he might have been still been in custody, if alive. China didn't release any photos which also means it wanted the discussion to be done privately - does this mean we also captured Chinese soldiers? Hard to say but the possibility exists.

[nam]

I am looking at the Northern region near the lake. The Chinese seems to have built roads on every entry point in two their side of LAC!

We should drive down these road and settle ourself in one of the places.

[RajaRudra]

A long rant ON. Don't read further if you are easily offended.

.

Its nothing ..but a politically biased rant. And rants should be in the garbage bin. Not in this forum.

[Manish_Sharma]

Valiant Jawans broke neck of PLA Soldiers

Faces of 18 pla soldiers smashed with stones

https://twitter.com/RMVikrant/status/12 ... 67744?s=09

[KSingh]

Misquoted or whatever but one of the biggest negatives of the PM’s comments were the lack of clarity and this has created quite substantial division and disharmony at a time when unity should’ve been seen.


Plenty of veterans are taking very negative stances against the PM and the govt and this is creating a lot of infighting

https://twitter.com/r_bhaduri/status/12 ... 41984?s=21



Once again poor messaging has created an atmosphere of mistrust and political in-fighting. To an extent this was always going to happen but it seems nothing was learned from Balakot.


The disturbing thing is many quite prominent RW handles are openly deriding the PM and his govt.

This is only playing into China’s hands.

[nam]

https://warontherocks.com/2020/06/china ... akh-clash/

Putting this link again. Cannot stress enough, that people need to read this. It is Chini's point of view.

I believe this gives the real answer on why we did not built road & infra along the LAC.

The Chinese will allow us control over 62 conquered territory, as long as we don't built the roads!

So the roads would have been the trigger for another Chinese invasion! Not the bs about roads "helping" in an Chinese invasion.

As I mentioned earlier, the nearer we are towards completion, closer we get to war..

[abhik]

There must be a valley from our side, which allows us to bypass the fingers directly in to Sirijap?

I would love to see the reaction on Chini faces, if we land up on North of Sirijap.

There is actually a Chinese road starting from the "alluvial plains"(?) that starts at the right edge of the image (the white band) than goes north (NE) and then turns west (SW) to reach the top of alluvial plain on the Indian side (not shown in the map) which is about 10-12 KM from the edge of the lake (and around 20 km NW of F4). So they are kind of already looking down at us - if they want to be really aggressive they can mass up there and come down and gobble up most of the lake.

Of course all this is based on my reading satellite images and armchair-giri, professional may have a different opinion or info.

https://i.imgur.com/N3kD4AK.jpg

[AshishA]

Misquoted or whatever but one of the biggest negatives of the PM’s comments were the lack of clarity and this has created quite substantial division and disharmony at a time when unity should’ve been seen.


Plenty of veterans are taking very negative stances against the PM and the govt and this is creating a lot of infighting

https://twitter.com/r_bhaduri/status/12 ... 41984?s=21



Once again poor messaging has created an atmosphere of mistrust and political in-fighting. To an extent this was always going to happen but it seems nothing was learned from Balakot.


The disturbing thing is many quite prominent RW handles are openly deriding the PM and his govt.

This is only playing into China’s hands.

Wait did you check if the RW handles being critical of Modi at this time are followed by Mohammed Lijian Zhao, Pak premi and current Spokesperson of MFA?

Because today I was reading how he had started blocking all defense reporters Twitter handles and had started following so called RW Twitter handles which I thought was very weird

[williams]

To an extend opposition needs to criticize the govt of the day and make sure the population is ready for more action if it comes to it. That is the beauty of democracy. I think the useful idiots like Shukla needs to make extreme claims. This will help govt to take more extreme steps. So don't focus on that. it almost seems Chinese wanted us to escalate. We need to add that into calculation before escalating.

[arshyam]

That's one way if looking at it, sure. But the experience of IC-814 has shown what harm mindless public pressure can do.

[khan]

it almost seems Chinese wanted us to escalate. We need to add that into calculation before escalating.

I disagree with this for many reasons:

- Their forces are all sitting ducks, just there for show
- They haven’t moved their holding corps to other sectors in the LAC.

I am sure there are other reasons that a military professional can identify.

I am pretty sure this is a very highly escalated version of the land-grab game that happens every so often. Eventually when the Chinese realize that Indian infra is good enough that they cannot grab any more land with this ROE, I have no doubt that they will escalate and break that ROE. I hope GOI is ready for this.

[ks_sachin]

Rakesh where art thou?

[CRamS]

I think GOI’s communication strategy is good. If they say too much, then they betray to the Chinese where we think our weak spots are.

Everything you say can be used against you - in a situation like this, where there is a lot of unpredictability, it’s best to stay quiet.

If GOI says anything of value, the Chinese could use it to embarrass GOI or read signals into what GOI is really thinking.

GOI is playing 4-D chess, where there is a lot of bluff and bluster on both sides, it’s best to start quiet.

Well said. Some normally nationalist folks like Minhaz Merchant perpetually accuse BJP govt of 'bad communication'. As though 'good communication' alone will scare the shit out of the Chinese and TSP. If that were the case, China would have surrendered after watching just one show of Dorkie on republic TV.

The problem is this. Short of an outright capture starting with Aksai Chin all the way up to Beijing without losing a single soldier, the ModiJi haters will poke holes no matter what.

Now, in the case of China and TSP, ModiJi and BJP have somewhat been a victim of their past verbal machismo.

So now you have a situation where Chincoms have attacked, we held back, gave back as good as we got if not more, but the essential Chincom problem still remains.

If you are a ModiJi supporter like me, I will agree Chincoms have not been tamed. There is a legacy of several years to deal with. But we have built the Daulat beg odie road, we are beefing up defenses and are pretty strong along at the LAC in Ladakh etc. And Chinese can't mess with us. This, along with all the diplomatic outreach is a good China policy.

I would say compared with Sonia Gandhi traitor govt, BJP will not sell the nation down the Galwan river. And BJP will not hesitate to use army as demonstrated at Galwan valley dog fight, surgical strike, Balakot etc. And none of this 'secular' rubbish by Sonia Gandhi and her stooges like Ajai Soothia about 'dialogue' with TSP and 'joint Kashmir valley sovereignty' etc.

Has BJP solved the Chincom and TSP problems? Hell now. But for Ajai Soothia types, the glass is woefully half empty that they can pummel ModiJi for that. Naturally, BJP govt is not going to take the bait by freely admitting everything. They will be digging holes further in the verbal duals with Pappu's slaves and traitors.

[Mort Walker]

I think one of the major reasons for the political slugfest is that the government has been in an incommunicado mode w.r.t. Indo China problem since April-may 2020. People were not expecting soldiers to die on the LAC because they were led to believe that everything was ok on the LAC. Looking back at the communication by the Government, there was no indication that things were deteriorating so fast over there.

<snip>

This is the best government we have at this time to handle the situation. The alternatives are disaster. The situation is still unfolding and Pangong Tso is of grave concern due to PLA buildup. We don't know all of the facts at this time and in the past the PLA has attacked in Sep-Oct, so it will take time for this to all unfold. Be patient. What the GoI can be criticized for is CAPEX for domestic production of arms and ammunition. This should have been tackled over 5 years ago.

[chetak]

[williams]

it almost seems Chinese wanted us to escalate. We need to add that into calculation before escalating.

I disagree with this for many reasons:

- Their forces are all sitting ducks, just there for show
- They haven’t moved their holding corps to other sectors in the LAC.

I am sure there are other reasons that a military professional can identify.

I am pretty sure this is a very highly escalated version of the land-grab game that happens every so often. Eventually when the Chinese realize that Indian infra is good enough that they cannot grab any more land with this ROE, I have no doubt that they will escalate and break that ROE. I hope GOI is ready for this.

They are sitting ducks if you take action. They have not moved but they have also changed the status quo. They have forced us to decide on how to maintain our perspective of LAC in some of these areas. So if you take action to restore our perspective of LAC, we will have to use force. I meant using that force is going to be an escalation. You will have to realize, the Chinese do not care about their men the way we do. They will easily use them as cannon fodder to maintain their h&d. We can use force but if they have calculated that we will use force, they would also have a plan on how to deal with it. We will have to counter such calculations before using force is all I am saying.

[rkirankr]

Lt Gen Narasimhan gave very valid reasons on why fire arms /artillery were not used and also about the so called 10 prisoners. Much Much more rational than the self styled defense analyst morons

[vijayk]

https://swarajyamag.com/world/army-blun ... rat-karnad
“Army Blundered In Ladakh. Modi Must Use Brahmastra Now And Prepare For Limited War”: Swarajya Interviews Security Strategist Bharat Karnad

[schinnas]

...

Kamran-ji

Are you the ex army veteran, Kamran Husain?

You are raising a valid point. In a democracy, govt cannot be silent and say don't question us. They have to take the people along. In fact communication and control of narrative has been a weakness of this govt. Several well meaning commentators such as Challaney have been calling this out.

It's a skill to communicate periodically and not reveal anything that doesn't need to be or shouldn't be revealed. Even saying that be patient, this can be a long game and we will publish the details after resolution will go a long way.

Just because the current leadership of military and govt are the most competent to handle such a crisis, we cannot give them a total free pass. Because if we do so, when we have a incompetent govt at the helm they would also hide under a cloak of national security.

That established as a general principle, I find current Govt's communication on this nearly adequate. PM could have chosen his words more carefully in the all party meeting but the MEA statements have been adequate. Operational details (ex: soldiers held captive by both countries) need not be shared immediately if it could hamper negotiations.

[skumar]

This is the best government we have at this time to handle the situation. The alternatives are disaster.
...

There is no doubt about this.

Leave it to INC or NCP or SP (forget the Communists), they will hold an international auction of Indian interests, they have already done the damage.

GoI needs capable hands.

[Jarita]

That's one way if looking at it, sure. But the experience of IC-814 has shown what harm mindless public pressure can do.

Correct. This is the time to start jailing the traitors - those who have direct links with the CCP and get monies from them for propaganda - also those who get money from western establishments that are salivating at the thought of an implosion. You take that away and then what you get is constructive criticism and some miffed people.

[anmol]

[..]The alternatives are disaster.

Loyal Opposition.

After Mumbai :-

After Pulwama :-

They are worse than disaster.

[darshan]

Presently there's no real Indian opposition. All the opposition so far is in foreign pockets or agents. Heck, some are so open that they even sign MoU.

[khan]

I disagree with this for many reasons:

- Their forces are all sitting ducks, just there for show
- They haven’t moved their holding corps to other sectors in the LAC.

I am sure there are other reasons that a military professional can identify.

I am pretty sure this is a very highly escalated version of the land-grab game that happens every so often. Eventually when the Chinese realize that Indian infra is good enough that they cannot grab any more land with this ROE, I have no doubt that they will escalate and break that ROE. I hope GOI is ready for this.

They are sitting ducks if you take action. They have not moved but they have also changed the status quo. They have forced us to decide on how to maintain our perspective of LAC in some of these areas. So if you take action to restore our perspective of LAC, we will have to use force. I meant using that force is going to be an escalation. You will have to realize, the Chinese do not care about their men the way we do. They will easily use them as cannon fodder to maintain their h&d. We can use force but if they have calculated that we will use force, they would also have a plan on how to deal with it. We will have to counter such calculations before using force is all I am saying.

My understanding is (and I could be wrong) - is the Chinese have an entire division of troops in the open across the 3-4 hotspots.

I can see an army putting up 1-2 companies of troops in the open (like we have done in Finger 4), but to put a division out there doesn’t make sense to me - if you are planning for it go kinetic - they will be slaughtered and we just move in.

I could be wrong, Xi has shown himself to be completely crazy & we don’t know what we don’t know - but just based on what I am seeing, it seems like they don’t plan on it going kinetic.

[khan]

Just when I posted ^, it seems GOI has given IA clearance to use fire-arms.

[Kamran Husain]

If you make it your goal to swat flies, then that's all you have time for. Haathi chalte hajn, kutte bhaunkte hain. Base your judgment on track record, from Balalkot TO Dhoklam we haven't backed down under this administration, and I find it hard to believe that this chapter is over.

Firstly can you tell me the context wherein Ram Mandir becomes a part of this discussion. I couldn't place the link to the topic of discussion.

Secondly, in my post post I never said the government does not respond. What i said was that the government does not communicate.

Coming from a defence background I know that any military conflict will result in soldiers putting their life at risk, and need be, sacrificing their life for the nation.

But the government needs to respond. By hiding facts, the government is insulting the sacrifice of the soldiers. Our EAM says one thing and our PM says something opposite. I was merely requesting the government for clarity and trusting the citizens to be responsible.