India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 24 Jun 2020 19:28

pankajs wrote:
YashG wrote:https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/12 ... 0790359040

Okay so Chinese are back at PP14! This is what I understand form this. What was the point of then removing thr tents form this point, losing 20 men - if we allow them to be back here.

I'm upset. I wonder if this is what China bargained us for 10 men return. And all along I was of the opinion that atleast PP14 is safe.
My question to GOI/IA would be slightly different .. IF IA has cleaned up the mess at LAC it should have setup its own monitoring post there, after all it is within Indian claim line and the Chinese already has made a play for it.

Why did we pull back after the 15-16 fracus and bloodshed?

OTOH, with GOI/IA mostly silent, thinking out loud, it "might" be an Indian post instead of the Chinese. Difficult to know judge just from a satellite image that is definitely Chinese.

Well I'd hope its Indian post but saw Shiv Aroor's indepth coverage - most likely he is right. It'd be monumental blunder if it werent so.

Yes I'd wonder the same - why did we pull back.
OTOH

The national television are floating absurd positions that could rather make Chinese look good, further De-escalation myths. Instead of refuting that Chinese didnt de-esclate, they are claiming that Chinese have gne back. Every jingo should be mad at this.

The gentleman is currently peddling that Chinese were all over the area where he is pointing his hand and have now pulled back. WTH this is desh-droh! This was an area where Chinese never were. Where they were, they are still there -only better positioned. How can our own people create myths of Chinese pullback.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 24 Jun 2020 19:31

srin wrote:We need to open another front from legal and diplomatic perspective.
It is time we reiterate our claim to Shaksgam valley and inform Chinese that we'll start routine patrols there. If the Chinese are worried about the G219 now, they will hit the roof if we do this.

Never throw a gauntlet that you cannot cover. It will only make our desperation look doubly bad.

Shaksgam valley is too remote from any of the present Indian location for us to make a play for it. It will only end up making us look like paper tigers.

Instead of hurling verbal challenge, let us do to the Chinese what they have done to us silently. More walk than talk.

The Chinese will get to know of it in a day or two just like they did the last time it happened. That would be a effective response a message that the Chinese will understand.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 24 Jun 2020 19:35

KL Dubey wrote:While we wait for the "disengagement" process (if any) to happen, a couple of questions (sorry if I am being stupid):

1) The PP14 spot in which the Chinese have put up squatter structures is basically the Galwan river bed, right ? Aren't these rivers usually flooded with water during the monsoon ? There would be no chance of having any permanent structure there, correct ? And therefore, does this indicate the intent of the Chinese to quickly surge troops on the river bed from this point and capture the DBO road about 2 miles to the west ?

2) Moving through the river bed seems to be a stupid proposition that will result in nothing but bodies of Chinese piling up really fast. So is there any other feasible attack plan that the Chinese are thinking of? Is this going to be in concert with another attack further north ?

To their way of thinking, if the are able to dominate the valley, the will blast the sides of the mountain to create a wide enough pathway that will allow rapid ingress as well as armour into the valley.

The equipment that they have stacked on their side of the LAC otherwise would not make sense.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 24 Jun 2020 19:39

YashG wrote:Well I'd hope its Indian post but saw Shiv Aroor's indepth coverage - most likely he is right. It'd be monumental blunder if it werent so.

Yes I'd wonder the same - why did we pull back.
OTOH

The national television are floating absurd positions that could rather make Chinese look good, further De-escalation myths. Instead of refuting that Chinese didnt de-esclate, they are claiming that Chinese have gne back. Every jingo should be mad at this.

[img/]https://i.imgur.com/Aqor3B3.png[/img]

The gentleman is currently peddling that Chinese were all over the area where he is pointing his hand and have now pulled back. WTH this is desh-droh! This was an area where Chinese never were. Where they were, they are still there -only better positioned. How can our own people create myths of Chinese pullback.

Seems the time for action is upon us. Modi will be tested like never before and he cannot walk back in the satellite age.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 24 Jun 2020 19:47

Could this post at PP14 be ours? You cant tell from satellite pics if a position is Indian or chinese..

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 24 Jun 2020 19:49

AdityaM wrote:^ 1 month ago almost every post here spoke about boldly marching into Lhasa. Now the posts have got an almost 360 degree turn!

If it is 360, that means we still point in the same direction

, I guess you mean 180 degree

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Jun 2020 19:51

Indian Army In A Commanding Position In Galwan As It Now Controls The Strategic Heights And Valley

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Jun 2020 19:58

Top pic is from may, bottom from today.

That is Indian territory. Everything in both pictures is Indian territory.

And, it has never been disputed.

A few weeks ago China decided to claim it and may have changed the status to disputed. India does not consider it disputed.

Finally, that white tent was about where Col. Baby caught the Chinese cheating the first time. But, that is not where both fought.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 24 Jun 2020 20:09

NRao wrote:

Top pic is from may, bottom from today.

That is Indian territory. Everything in both pictures is Indian territory.

And, it has never been disputed.

A few weeks ago China decided to claim it and may have changed the status to disputed. India does not consider it disputed.

Finally, that white tent was about where Col. Baby caught the Chinese cheating the first time. But, that is not where both fought.

Are you sure that is not Indian build up?
Apparently that is NDTV news that was debunked. I am getting the sense that there are too many who would get a perverse pleasure if India lost territory. This is our own political establishment and others.
Territory once lost will not come back so these people should not try and gain brownie points through misinformation. Of course, we want to hear the truth but there is so much illogical conjecture.
If India vacated the Chinese by force from this piece of land, it is unlikely they would allow a resettling. Don't forget they built a bridge in 72 hours. It would have been good if these reporters were on the ground.

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 24 Jun 2020 20:13

Jarita wrote:
NRao wrote:

Top pic is from may, bottom from today.

That is Indian territory. Everything in both pictures is Indian territory.

And, it has never been disputed.

A few weeks ago China decided to claim it and may have changed the status to disputed. India does not consider it disputed.

Finally, that white tent was about where Col. Baby caught the Chinese cheating the first time. But, that is not where both fought.
Are you sure that is not Indian build up

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/12 ... 0790359040

He is unequivocal that this is Chinese buildup. I havent seen Arror being wrong often. His reporting has been fairly accurate & he has been a vociferous nationalist on defence matters. I have no reason to believe he is wrong here. Others on twitter have corroborated.

We will not like this but still a data point.

Nathan Ruser
@Nrg8000
Satellite imagery from the Galwan Valley on June 22nd shows that 'disengagement' really isn't the word that the government should be using. This gif shows the small outpost that sparked the June 15th clashes. It has grown hugely in size. Indian troops aren't dismantling this one.
GIF
6:24 PM · Jun 24, 2020

https://twitter.com/Nrg8000/status/1275774261521559557

Sonugn · Post by **Sonugn** » 24 Jun 2020 20:14

Some reports of deployment of H6K bombers & "long range Russian defensive systems" (S300?) in TAR

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Jun 2020 20:19

Jarita wrote: Are you sure that is not Indian build up?
Apparently that is NDTV news that was debunked

No, I am not sure it is Indian build up.

However, I claimed it to be *undisputed* Indian territory, not Indian build up.

Iyersan · Post by **Iyersan** » 24 Jun 2020 20:24

From Gen Ved Mallik

Quoting Kissinger 'On China'. "What distinguishes Sun Tzu from Western writers on strategy is emphasis on psychological & political elements over purely military.
Quoting Kissinger 'On China'. "Chinese style of dealing with strategic decisions is “thorough analysis, careful preparations, attention to psychological and political factors, quest for surprise, and rapid conclusion.”
https://twitter.com/vedmalik1/status/12 ... 47905?s=21

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Jun 2020 20:35

Sonugn wrote:Some reports of deployment of H6K bombers & "long range Russian defensive systems" (S300?) in TAR

The same S-300 that was on duty when Israel bombed Syrian nuclear facilities at the other end of Syria?

nam · Post by **nam** » 24 Jun 2020 20:37

oh the Sun Tzu nonsense. All the bluster is meaningless and won't make a difference. Even the Chinese leader ship knows it.

That is why EVERY war, the PLA fought was started by it! It is because PLA is an ideological army. It is not fighting for a country or people. It is fighting for a partyy. It is n overgrown militia.

If any of the powers decide to employ the same tactics as the Chinis, they will heavily routed. The Japanese did it with them and conquered them.

dineshchaturvedi · Post by **dineshchaturvedi** » 24 Jun 2020 20:41

YashG wrote:
Jarita wrote:
Are you sure that is not Indian build up
https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/12 ... 0790359040

He is unequivocal that this is Chinese buildup. I havent seen Arror being wrong often. His reporting has been fairly accurate & he has been a vociferous nationalist on defence matters. I have no reason to believe he is wrong here. Others on twitter have corroborated.

We will not like this but still a data point.

Nathan Ruser
@Nrg8000
Satellite imagery from the Galwan Valley on June 22nd shows that 'disengagement' really isn't the word that the government should be using. This gif shows the small outpost that sparked the June 15th clashes. It has grown hugely in size. Indian troops aren't dismantling this one.
GIF
6:24 PM · Jun 24, 2020
https://twitter.com/Nrg8000/status/1275774261521559557

This is very worrying for me. I mean we lost 20 men at PP14 and if they were still able to put up tents than too bad. Plus I am disappointed with Modi, he did not even muster the courage to face the truth. He should have said China has occupied our land.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 24 Jun 2020 20:46

So are you all saying you do not believe the Indian Army and Indian government when they say that there is no encroachment of territory. I am very perturbed by this second guessing. Of course the malicious media arms are responsible for this but facts will be facts and in a month or so the truth will be out. The government has nothing to gain from blatant lies and this group is called Bharat Rakshak OK.
Again, coming back to this group after a long time and it's very troubling to see the perverse sense of "government is lying", "army is bluffing". You can clearly see the divide. There is also a perverse sense of I told you so. Who are these newbies?
In the midst of all this, RaviB's posts are a real pleasure to read.

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 24 Jun 2020 20:50

This thread is not about Modi lying etc. Also, many need to stop coming here and crying about 20 dead like they count and cry on everyone that died so far this year. Indian soldiers have been dying since forever. If one can't handle the number 20 then one should stop even looking into these matters. As eventual number would be not anywhere close to 20.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 24 Jun 2020 20:53

NRao wrote:

Top pic is from may, bottom from today.

That is Indian territory. Everything in both pictures is Indian territory.

And, it has never been disputed.

A few weeks ago China decided to claim it and may have changed the status to disputed. India does not consider it disputed.

Finally, that white tent was about where Col. Baby caught the Chinese cheating the first time. But, that is not where both fought.

If that triangle is indeed PP14 - How did we actually reach it? Fording the river or moving along the cliffs or either side, doesn't look like there is much space to move (at least from sat pictures) - so a kind of natural obstacle. Given this I don't think we have that place is really defensible from our side - digging in on the opposite bank is the right thing to do. And of course taking the hights along the valley.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 24 Jun 2020 20:54

I saw the TimesNow video mentioned above. That guys has no ffing clue what he is talking about even while rephrasing and reinterpreting what some gora analyst said. Pure BS. And every reporter now tries to speak like that R-TV monkey Arnab Goswamy. Pathetic.

parashara · Post by **parashara** » 24 Jun 2020 21:08

Just watched Nitin Gokhale's update: He says the pink structures seen in today's satellite photos are sangars built by us. They are *not* chinese.

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 24 Jun 2020 21:11

Nitin Gokhle is saying those structures are belong to India and Indian build them after June 16 incident.

Those structures are not bunkers but "Sangar"(temporary bunkers).

-Ankit

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 24 Jun 2020 21:11

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 1575315456

Indian Army all set to order another batch of Excalibur 155mm GPS guided artillery rounds. A major force multiplier, it will enhance precision strike capability of M777 guns significantly and is very effective in clearing enemy bunkers & pillboxes on ridges and in valleys.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 24 Jun 2020 21:12

Funny that people talk about Chinese philosophy and then fall for their psych-ops.

The situation is obviously not what anyone desired.

Indian forces are on alert and responding.

From what we know so far, the first truly offensive action has been the Ghatak attack on Chinese camps.

The Chinese have been doing the Salami Slicing they have been doing since the 50s.

They are now being challenged

Gentlemen & Ladies:

India is in an undeclared war.

This is not the time to question & second-guess.

It’s the time to support.

In a democracy truth always comes out.

Let the military & civilian leaders of India determine the strategy, the tactics & the communication.

If anything use your energy to help think of ways India can plug in the manufacturing gap. Can you get factories to increase production to 3x? Can you find substitutes for imports from China?

And note that even satellite imagery can be modified and altered to look real via Deep Learning.

While OSINT is good, you never know who is behind even the anti-China handles.

Have faith & trust that the leaders will aim for the best possible outcome. Support them now; ask questions later.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 24 Jun 2020 21:15

Ankit Desai wrote:Nitin Gokhle is saying those structures are belong to India and Indian build them after June 16 incident.

Those structures are not bunkers but "Sangar"(temporary bunkers).

-Ankit

Our usual suspects are running hour long programs about the "Chinese" structures.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Jun 2020 21:15

abhik wrote: If that triangle is indeed PP14 - How did we actually reach it? Fording the river or moving along the cliffs or either side, doesn't look like there is much space to move (at least from sat pictures) - so a kind of natural obstacle. Given this I don't think we have that place is really defensible from our side - digging in on the opposite bank is the right thing to do. And of course taking the hights along the valley.

That indeed is Patrol Point (PP) 14. IIRC it is a 1000 feet (not meters) above the Shyok River, so it is a hike.

One reaches it by foot, walking along the banks of the Galwan River. If you recall there was a story about IA Engineers completing some Bailey bridges across the Galwan. Those bridges (I think they built 3 of them) are built across the Galwan (as the name implies, but at times confused with bridges across the Shyok) and they are built when the walkway along the banks of the Galwan become too narrow to walk and one had to wade through the water to cross the river to get to a path across the river.

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 24 Jun 2020 21:17

What is all the dhoti shivering i am seeing from some people here. If they killed 20 of our soldiers we killed 40 of them. If they repeat it again and we will respond accordingly. Trust your govt and your army. Not the media which half of the time talks with half knowledge.

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 24 Jun 2020 21:19

Just a word of caution: Feel free to use data provided by Nathan Ruser but DO NOT take his analysis/spin at face value. The guy has an agenda, and he was one of the folks vociferously arguing that the Balakot strikes hit nothing.

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 24 Jun 2020 21:20

parashara wrote:Just watched Nitin Gokhale's update: He says the pink structures seen in today's satellite photos are sangars built by us. They are *not* chinese.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TL_rs4y ... e=emb_logo

Yes Nitin Gokhale says the structures are Indian. So between Shiv Aroor and Nitin G, one of them have got their facts wrong or maybe both are right. We can wait for more evidence to appear. Maybe a couple of days at best. Also these are 22Jun sat pics, maybe 24Jun sat pics look better for us ( Although Shiv's tweet suggests otherwise but then lets keep it for another day).

OTOH
I dont understand this de-escalation, disengagement lobby - I wish it gets dismantled. Everytime this disengagement farce is going on, new unfavorable facts emerge.

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 24 Jun 2020 21:21

abhik wrote: If that triangle is indeed PP14 - How did we actually reach it? Fording the river or moving along the cliffs or either side, doesn't look like there is much space to move (at least from sat pictures) - so a kind of natural obstacle. Given this I don't think we have that place is really defensible from our side - digging in on the opposite bank is the right thing to do. And of course taking the hights along the valley.

We just completed building a 60 m bridge over the Galwan river. I guess we can move from one bank to the other using that bridge. If its a hot war, we won't be looking to defend PP14. We would try to move up the Galwan valley.

idan · Post by **idan** » 24 Jun 2020 21:21

I think media is hyping things up for no reason including India Today and their OSINT experts. GOI should immediately impose gag orders on retired servicemen refraining them from participation in media or else they forfeit their pension benefits. I guess that sense of discipline is gone. I am appalled an ex-intelligence officer uses OSINT to publish his analysis/findings from satellite imagery in public domain - a trade which the govt/Army has taught him for services to the nation and not for educating the public. I had a 96 year old Uncle who fought in 1947/48 Kashmir War and thereafter as a young rookie fighter pilot and never uttered a word about his action days till he was alive - I came to know about his job from anecdotal information reading books.

vimal · Post by **vimal** » 24 Jun 2020 21:22

NRao wrote:

Top pic is from may, bottom from today.

That is Indian territory. Everything in both pictures is Indian territory.

And, it has never been disputed.

A few weeks ago China decided to claim it and may have changed the status to disputed. India does not consider it disputed.

Finally, that white tent was about where Col. Baby caught the Chinese cheating the first time. But, that is not where both fought.

Picture from May river bed is dry. Picture from June river is flowing. Is that something that Chinese control.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Jun 2020 21:24

Would like to make a quick point here. This is about Gosthan (AKA Aksai Chin).

This little triangle:

is the small triangle at 11 O'Clock, i this picture::

And, the above picture is the Galwan Valley mentioned in the following picture:

And, as one can see, Pangong Tso, Hot Springs, Galwan River (not just the Valley) and ALL Patrol Points are part of Gosthan. And, Gosthan is part of Ladakh. And, Ladakh is part of India.

So, as much as we like to analyze details, I think, we should always make it clear India is not taking anyone's land in Goasthan. Or Chinese Occupied Ladakh (CoL).

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Jun 2020 21:27

vimal wrote: Picture from May river bed is dry. Picture from June river is flowing. Is that something that Chinese control.

Maybe that is when they dammed the Galwan River?

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 24 Jun 2020 21:27

One has to cross verify and think through even classified stuff on the desk coming in real-time. And there are many who run with what's available in public domain as like they are standing there and observing themselves.

If you want to grill GoI for data, then grill GoI on what's being done to arrange logistics, supplies, jailing chinese supporters, jailing violaters who let chinese imports in, trade deficits, etc.

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 24 Jun 2020 21:28

YashG wrote:
parashara wrote:Just watched Nitin Gokhale's update: He says the pink structures seen in today's satellite photos are sangars built by us. They are *not* chinese.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TL_rs4y ... e=emb_logo

Yes Nitin Gokhale says the structures are Indian. So between Shiv Aroor and Nitin G, one of them have got their facts wrong or maybe both are right. We can wait for more evidence to appear. Maybe a couple of days at best. Also these are 22Jun sat pics, maybe 24Jun sat pics look better for us ( Although Shiv's tweet suggests otherwise but then lets keep it for another day)...

Chaps, some common sense and a basic art of map orientation needs to be employed in interpreting the OSINT pics:
We have our structures (as claimed) with access path / road leading in to those from the East ???
Really??

I do hope the learned members in this Forum get the gist of which way the winds are blowing...

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 24 Jun 2020 21:29

NRao wrote:

True comparison can only be done with a June 14 pic to see the before and after.

Who knows that the mega construction wasn't already present as of 15 June when the clash happened.

But how was so much construction allowed to take place unchallenged?

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 24 Jun 2020 21:31

Guys, there is alternative view coming from Nitin Gokhle about new structures at PP 14 or where Galwan bends towards Indian side.

So let's wait out before reaching any conclusion.

-Ankit

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 24 Jun 2020 21:32

AdityaM wrote:
NRao wrote:

Top pic is from may, bottom from today.

That is Indian territory. Everything in both pictures is Indian territory.

And, it has never been disputed.

A few weeks ago China decided to claim it and may have changed the status to disputed. India does not consider it disputed.

Finally, that white tent was about where Col. Baby caught the Chinese cheating the first time. But, that is not where both fought.

True comparison can only be done with a June 14 pic to see the before and after.

Who knows that the mega construction wasn't already present as of 15 June when the clash happened.

But how was so much construction allowed to take place unchallenged?

^^^ Request refer my earlier post...

ranneel · Post by **ranneel** » 24 Jun 2020 21:38

The chindu is also showing the same built-up structures in the lower image and article titled "China demands India’s withdrawal from Galwan Valley".