Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby abhik » 28 Jun 2020 23:15

Years of neglect is coming back to bite us in the arse. Seeing the news coverage around the RM running to our "best friends forever" Russia for arms was one of the most puke worthy things of this episode, it's just a reminder that we are nothing more than a slightly richer turd world country than we where 2 decades ago (last time we were kicked by reality). I'm afraid we are not going to learn any thing this time round either.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby pandyan » 28 Jun 2020 23:22

Barath wrote:This report was date stamped may 15 and gives some background on the Tonbo imaging open letter (ie it's old)

https://officechai.com/news/defence-tec ... contracts/

Letter itself undated. No idea on update.

This comment and previous one more appropriate for a different thread ?


1 month old. I put it here primarily as MK1A contract is also getting delayed. there seems to be a pattern

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rsatchi » 28 Jun 2020 23:25

abhik wrote:Years of neglect is coming back to bite us in the arse. Seeing the news coverage around the RM running to our "best friends forever" Russia for arms was one of the most puke worthy things of this episode, it's just a reminder that we are nothing more than a slightly richer turd world country than we where 2 decades ago (last time we were kicked by reality). I'm afraid we are not going to learn any thing this time round either.

Sir
Modiji has proven his defaulters wrong time and again!!
Have patience. Cleaning up the old system like the proverbial 'Augean Stables' is not an easy task and even Modiji will need at least another couple of terms :roll:

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby pandyan » 28 Jun 2020 23:30

I sometimes feel that current government is letting the process flow its normal path to understand what is going on and who the players are. They learnt it from the rafale deal as once the initial deal was announced, there was an intense pressure and noise of corruption and scrutiny from the court. (no doubt instigated by other parties and foreign funded NGOs). They also derailed Train-18. I am hoping that current standoff with China will result in a big shift and accelerate local production - but before that can happen, the process-pipeline and needs to be cleaned up

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby abhik » 28 Jun 2020 23:44

Rsatchi wrote:
abhik wrote:Years of neglect is coming back to bite us in the arse. Seeing the news coverage around the RM running to our "best friends forever" Russia for arms was one of the most puke worthy things of this episode, it's just a reminder that we are nothing more than a slightly richer turd world country than we where 2 decades ago (last time we were kicked by reality). I'm afraid we are not going to learn any thing this time round either.

Sir
Modiji has proven his defaulters wrong time and again!!
Have patience. Cleaning up the old system like the proverbial 'Augean Stables' is not an easy task and even Modiji will need at least another couple of terms :roll:


Honestly I don't think he is really "trying" - get the impression that this was never a focus area. CV19 was the perfect opportunity to place orders for indigenous weapons, but all we got was some more lines added to the useless policy paper (DPP).

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby schinnas » 29 Jun 2020 00:01

pandyan wrote:
Barath wrote:This report was date stamped may 15 and gives some background on the Tonbo imaging open letter (ie it's old)

https://officechai.com/news/defence-tec ... contracts/

Letter itself undated. No idea on update.

This comment and previous one more appropriate for a different thread ?


1 month old. I put it here primarily as MK1A contract is also getting delayed. there seems to be a pattern


The pattern is that due to COVID related finance squeeze, all capital acquisitions have been put on hold. Covid would set back defense procurement plans by a year atleast.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Mort Walker » 29 Jun 2020 00:20

fanne wrote:order of 20,000 Tejas. Sorry you are not patriotic enough (I have more zeros than you)


Don’t be ridiculous. How much is going to be spent on foreign arms as opposed to setting up aerospace industry, commercial electronics/avionics? Vast employment and knowledge base and skill are created. If you can’t see that, then I pity you.

An order for 200 MK1A would bring down future unit cost of Mk2 and attract foreign sales like the Gripen.
Last edited by Mort Walker on 29 Jun 2020 00:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Mort Walker » 29 Jun 2020 00:28

Rsatchi wrote:
abhik wrote:Years of neglect is coming back to bite us in the arse. Seeing the news coverage around the RM running to our "best friends forever" Russia for arms was one of the most puke worthy things of this episode, it's just a reminder that we are nothing more than a slightly richer turd world country than we where 2 decades ago (last time we were kicked by reality). I'm afraid we are not going to learn any thing this time round either.

Sir
Modiji has proven his defaulters wrong time and again!!
Have patience. Cleaning up the old system like the proverbial 'Augean Stables' is not an easy task and even Modiji will need at least another couple of terms :roll:


The current government has been in power for over 6 years now. Cleaning up acquisitions should not have taken more than 3-4 years. We’re past that time frame and repeating the same mistakes. The RM should’ve had photo ops at HAL, L&T shipyards, and ordinance factories handing over checks of billions of dollars for new weapon systems. This is not the first time RM Rajnath Singh has done this. Earlier conscreating the Rafale in France - how embarrassing when they haven’t arrived yet!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby srai » 29 Jun 2020 06:16

Since it’s so time consuming to confirm orders (even indigenous ones), larger quantities need to be negotiated and signed for. 40 units or 80 units are not sufficient. Order 10-years worth of production at one go.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby srai » 29 Jun 2020 07:07

Anyone know what ADA has been working on for the continued incremental updates/upgrades on LCA MK.1 FOC (beyond the baseline qualification)?

New weapon integration?
Aerodynamic refinements?
etc ...

Is there a roadmap?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Barath » 29 Jun 2020 07:52

schinnas wrote:
pandyan wrote:
1 month old. I put it here primarily as MK1A contract is also getting delayed. there seems to be a pattern


The pattern is that due to COVID related finance squeeze, all capital acquisitions have been put on hold. Covid would set back defense procurement plans by a year atleast.


From the article:

These payments should have been cleared by March end. These are for products delivered in October

Ie the pain is due significantly to the delayed payments for past deliveries, in addition to en masse cancellation.

Payments not made ~8 months after delivery ..

On atmanirbhar, the talk is different from the walk if it allows Indian capabilities to be lost due to bankruptcy

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ashishvikas » 29 Jun 2020 09:38

Source: HVT.

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Mort Walker » 29 Jun 2020 09:56

srai wrote:Since it’s so time consuming to confirm orders (even indigenous ones), larger quantities need to be negotiated and signed for. 40 units or 80 units are not sufficient. Order 10-years worth of production at one go.


I agree.

If both the Mk1A can come in at $40 million in numbers and Mk2 at $50 million, then 200 Mk1A would be $8 billion + $2 billion for infrastructure development. Then 400 Mk2 would be $20 billion. For $30 billion by 2030 is not unreasonable. It will be a huge boost to not just capability, but a vast industrial base which will attract the best and brightest in the country.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Aditya_V » 29 Jun 2020 10:18

India is the only country where a large number of people in General Public, MOD, Babu dom, media with access to foreign gravy train and interested Politicans all except production without orders, why would HAL and a million suppliers set up production, hire talent etc, invest CAPEX etc. without a more or less guaranteed return.

We expect other people to be charitable.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby TushS » 29 Jun 2020 12:25

Image

Beautiful image. I see no cockpit visibility problem in Tejas.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Armuan » 29 Jun 2020 21:13

Mort Walker wrote:
Rsatchi wrote:Sir
Modiji has proven his defaulters wrong time and again!!
Have patience. Cleaning up the old system like the proverbial 'Augean Stables' is not an easy task and even Modiji will need at least another couple of terms :roll:


The current government has been in power for over 6 years now. Cleaning up acquisitions should not have taken more than 3-4 years. We’re past that time frame and repeating the same mistakes. The RM should’ve had photo ops at HAL, L&T shipyards, and ordinance factories handing over checks of billions of dollars for new weapon systems. This is not the first time RM Rajnath Singh has done this. Earlier conscreating the Rafale in France - how embarrassing when they haven’t arrived yet!


+1
After Parikar-ji, I don't see anyone championing the cause for indegenization. Now that the border issue has flared with a real possibility of war, let's see how we respond towards encouraging domestic cos without short changing them (despicable).

There is Samtel and may be a few others who have done well. How were they able to do this? Is there a decent unified mechanism that enables this, or is it different for the three services?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 29 Jun 2020 21:24

You can drag and drop the picture below for a large size to read the text....

https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/127 ... 50338?s=20 ----> More than 15 private companies are already manufacturing and involved in the various LRUs of Tejas MK1. This number is going to increase further in Mk1A. I hope that the government gets its orders done, production rate shouldn't be an issue here.

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nachiket » 30 Jun 2020 00:31

Rsatchi wrote:
abhik wrote:Years of neglect is coming back to bite us in the arse. Seeing the news coverage around the RM running to our "best friends forever" Russia for arms was one of the most puke worthy things of this episode, it's just a reminder that we are nothing more than a slightly richer turd world country than we where 2 decades ago (last time we were kicked by reality). I'm afraid we are not going to learn any thing this time round either.

Sir
Modiji has proven his defaulters wrong time and again!!
Have patience. Cleaning up the old system like the proverbial 'Augean Stables' is not an easy task and even Modiji will need at least another couple of terms :roll:

Under his watch we have spent 4 years negotiating a contract for the LCH (still not signed btw). Tejas Mk1A orders still six months out. We are going in reverse on the small arms front (INSAS to be replaced by foreign rifles screwdrivered in India). We inducted very small numbers of a totally new and expensive aircraft type with no follow up. Aerial refueler shortage is not even being spoken of. No sign of more AWACS. No sign of more Astra orders. Local suppliers having problems with unpaid dues and order cancellations. We have more than enough reasons to be pessimistic. The only truly good era during his term was when we had a capable Defense minister in Parrikar ji which ended too soon.

And despite all this his government has been better than nearly all previous ones on the defence front. Shows just how low a bar every successive Indian govt. has placed over the last 70+ years.

Anyway I'll stop before I have to ban myself for politicizing the thread. Sometimes it is hard to stop the angst from flowing out. :oops:

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 30 Jun 2020 01:14

Modi's government did a lot to address shortage problems, but if remove Parrikar, there isn't much to show except purchases made perhaps for 'other' reasons, many times perhaps to keep other countries happy (or so it looks that way). This is when the economy was in great shape compared to what was available for other PMs. UPA was terrible. But earlier Vajpayee's NDA was good too. Even better was PV's reign during the toughest time when India was fighting bankruptcy. On so many fronts related to security, the government did a great job. While NaMo's time saw even Nepal slipping out to China, PV's time had Israel back to India's allies that too with the support of Yassar Arafat! Money was never short for the atomic device development and he almost exploded the device. Initial payments for Sukhois were made by him just before elections, remember that Bofors blew Congress government in 80s! His handling of Punjab and J&K was remarkable and unprecedented and he kept the defense ministry to himself for most part.

Before anyone could say OT, let me quote his expectation for LCA itself -- "While the first flight of TD1 was supposed to take place in the second half of 1996, The second Technology Demonstrator (TD2) was scheduled to follow nine months later in January 1997. Prime Minister P. V. Narasimha Rao in his speech in roll out ceremony had said that warplane would be inducted into the air force by the year 2003 two years before the scheduled date of 2005. Many in the audience were seen rolling their eyes hearing PM’s statement of early inductions of airplane then scheduled. "

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Theeran » 30 Jun 2020 01:30

Deleted. Pointless post.
Last edited by Theeran on 30 Jun 2020 05:32, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ramana » 30 Jun 2020 02:39

Rakesh wrote:You can drag and drop the picture below for a large size to read the text....

https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/127 ... 50338?s=20 ----> More than 15 private companies are already manufacturing and involved in the various LRUs of Tejas MK1. This number is going to increase further in Mk1A. I hope that the government gets its orders done, production rate shouldn't be an issue here.

Image


Can some one compile the list of the 134 LRUs from the 49 foreign suppliers please?

Please add risk column and space for comments.
Risk could be political, business what not.

Thanks, ramana

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Aditya_V » 30 Jun 2020 08:14

All this empty talk without orders and priority in payments, the whole system from MOD babus , Politicans and entire commission system bears responsibility.

In many ways our country has not changed from 1962 and the Chinese have assessed this.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby vimal » 30 Jun 2020 08:28

i'm still not clear how India could amass $5 billion for S400 order and sign it so quickly but still waiting to sign an order for 83 Tejas?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby bharathp » 30 Jun 2020 08:54

vimal wrote:i'm still not clear how India could amass $5 billion for S400 order and sign it so quickly but still waiting to sign an order for 83 Tejas?

could be the cost to
1)buy a Veto vote
2) continue to supply for su 30 mki
3) akula class submarine and
4) MTCR club access

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby fanne » 30 Jun 2020 09:39

This also shows why 50% of LCA spend is in FX going to foreign entities. Just like Arjun, majority of the sub systems are foreign, however design is ours. In many ways it is not the worst thing, we are putting the best sub systems where required, but also many of the sub systems have nothing better than we cannot make it (or have not tried). Some of these systems by themselves add nothing, e.g. -actuators - It does not make LCA any better or worse, a similar performing actuator can do just fine, only we do not make it.
Things like, engine, radar, EW etc. are the one that perhaps you want the best, if you had money and someone is willing to sell.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby arvin » 30 Jun 2020 09:41

vimal wrote:i'm still not clear how India could amass $5 billion for S400 order and sign it so quickly but still waiting to sign an order for 83 Tejas?


Both are not comparable.
S400 is field deployed, in producton and is a necessity to exand the envelope beyond Akash and LRSAM. We dont have anything of its equivalent.
For Mk1A, I feel money is not the issue. Its a new design so probably they are asking for more time. It vll come but Its absence can be made up by others.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ks_sachin » 30 Jun 2020 10:55

arvin wrote:
vimal wrote:i'm still not clear how India could amass $5 billion for S400 order and sign it so quickly but still waiting to sign an order for 83 Tejas?


Both are not comparable.
S400 is field deployed, in producton and is a necessity to exand the envelope beyond Akash and LRSAM. We dont have anything of its equivalent.
For Mk1A, I feel money is not the issue. Its a new design so probably they are asking for more time. It vll come but Its absence can be made up by others.

Please do not change the narrative on the LCA....

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ks_sachin » 30 Jun 2020 10:56

TushS wrote:Image

Beautiful image. I see no cockpit visibility problem in Tejas.

Who said there were?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby abhik » 30 Jun 2020 11:04

@fanne where are you getting 50% number from? IIRC the local content is much higher, around 70% or so.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby vimal » 30 Jun 2020 11:17

arvin wrote:
vimal wrote:i'm still not clear how India could amass $5 billion for S400 order and sign it so quickly but still waiting to sign an order for 83 Tejas?


Both are not comparable.
S400 is field deployed, in producton and is a necessity to exand the envelope beyond Akash and LRSAM. We dont have anything of its equivalent.
For Mk1A, I feel money is not the issue. Its a new design so probably they are asking for more time. It vll come but Its absence can be made up by others.


:roll: By your logic we should just buy more MKIs since they are field deployed and ready.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby arvin » 30 Jun 2020 12:09

vimal wrote:
arvin wrote:
Both are not comparable.
S400 is field deployed, in producton and is a necessity to exand the envelope beyond Akash and LRSAM. We dont have anything of its equivalent.
For Mk1A, I feel money is not the issue. Its a new design so probably they are asking for more time. It vll come but Its absence can be made up by others.


:roll: By your logic we should just buy more MKIs since they are field deployed and ready.


Do you see MKI anywhere in my post. ?or you really think GOI will order MKI in place of MK1A now.
MK1A has crossed price negotiations stage and that means finer details of what goes into it have been ironed out. If the CMD of HAL says it will be signed by year end who are we to say sign it now. And since it is not signed attribute creative reasons for it. If it is not signed how can money be allocated to it.
Your post had S400 and MK1A in the same context of money availability. And I said Money is not an issue here.
If you say dont spend on S400 until MK 1A is signed what is the solution for engaging air threats beyond the range of 100 km ( limit of LRSAM) and upto 400 km(limit of 40N6E) that can be immediately shipped. Does DRDO have anything like S400.
GOI and HAL are better placed to decide when to sign the order and if they say 6 months for whatever reasons we need to accept it.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby vimal » 30 Jun 2020 12:16

Comrade Arvin, read the last few pages and educate yourself. MK1A order has been delayed due to fund crunch but for some reason we never seem to have any fund crunch when buying foreign maal. That was the point I was trying to make before you jumped in to defend russi maal.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Aditya_V » 30 Jun 2020 12:17

GOI slow plans towards local weapons production means we will be import dependent for many years to come.

While China and Pakistan are over arming themselves, we are always into expensive imports which buy a limited defensive capability.

These are Jackals and Hyenas, especially Pakistan - which unless we split it into small dependent states will always be waiting for moment of weakness, it has been like this for 1000 years yet Indians do not learn.

Only a good manufacturing base with good MIC will work for our strategic defensive needs- we have good product in MK1- let the production ecosystem pick up speed, with orders we find the nits and gritties so that at least 10 years or 15 years later we are not in the same perilous state.

39000 crores with 8000 crores a year extra capex when emergency purchases last year 15000 crores, this another 10-15K crores is small change.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Cain Marko » 30 Jun 2020 12:32

The only way to get out of this conundrum is

1. Separate the tsp from the chicoms by controlling key areas in PoK

2. Reducing interest rates and using QE to get extra funding for defence investments. We have to get over the hump, and can't do it because there's always a last moment emergency...

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby abhik » 30 Jun 2020 14:02

Aditya_V wrote:GOI slow plans towards local weapons production means we will be import dependent for many years to come.

While China and Pakistan are over arming themselves, we are always into expensive imports which buy a limited defensive capability.

These are Jackals and Hyenas, especially Pakistan - which unless we split it into small dependent states will always be waiting for moment of weakness, it has been like this for 1000 years yet Indians do not learn.

Only a good manufacturing base with good MIC will work for our strategic defensive needs- we have good product in MK1- let the production ecosystem pick up speed, with orders we find the nits and gritties so that at least 10 years or 15 years later we are not in the same perilous state.

39000 crores with 8000 crores a year extra capex when emergency purchases last year 15000 crores, this another 10-15K crores is small change.


We are under spending at least 30K crores compared to historic numbers (capex vs GDP). This is not something we can continue doing without hurting both defence preparedness and domestic MIC (imports have first rights to resources) - need to bite the bullet now. Also we need to massively ramp up the the spend on R&D to at least 25% of capex, and ensure that majority goes to funding private (or PSUs on a level playing field).

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nachiket » 30 Jun 2020 22:56

arvin wrote:For Mk1A, I feel money is not the issue. Its a new design so probably they are asking for more time. It vll come but Its absence can be made up by others.

Who is they? The delay in the Mk1A contract as per last reports was because HAL and the MoD could not agree on the price. HAL was quoting too much. But that was resolved and the price negotiations concluded. Now it is the usual complicated bureaucratic process that we have to wait for where moving a file from the left side of a desk to the right is a major step and takes weeks before being passed on to the next desk...

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby arvin » 30 Jun 2020 23:34

By they I mean HAL. Its a significant design change internaly with AESA, LRU, panels, RWR etc my guess is they are holding off the contract signing till things are sorted out. I dont think its a bureaucratic issue.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ramana » 01 Jul 2020 04:07

vimal wrote:Comrade Arvin, read the last few pages and educate yourself. MK1A order has been delayed due to fund crunch but for some reason we never seem to have any fund crunch when buying foreign maal. That was the point I was trying to make before you jumped in to defend russi maal.



What's the fund disbursement schedule for Tejas? Obviously Tejas needs early long lead items procurement for LRUS and fuselage parts at sub contractors. And then assembly, integrate and test prior to delivery.

So how does GOI pay?
And what role does IAF have here?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 01 Jul 2020 04:41

nachiket wrote:
arvin wrote:For Mk1A, I feel money is not the issue. Its a new design so probably they are asking for more time. It vll come but Its absence can be made up by others.

Who is they? The delay in the Mk1A contract as per last reports was because HAL and the MoD could not agree on the price. HAL was quoting too much. But that was resolved and the price negotiations concluded. Now it is the usual complicated bureaucratic process that we have to wait for where moving a file from the left side of a desk to the right is a major step and takes weeks before being passed on to the next desk...


As per HAL CMD R Madhavan, the file is now with the Finance Ministry and after that will go to the CCS for approval and then it'll be done. Expected by December. :(

Anyway, HAL is moving ahead and not waiting for contract signature to start work on the Mk1A. There are plenty of activities that need to be done on HAL's end anyway for the first prototype to be rolled out and flown.

Kartik
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 01 Jul 2020 04:42

arvin wrote:By they I mean HAL. Its a significant design change internaly with AESA, LRU, panels, RWR etc my guess is they are holding off the contract signing till things are sorted out. I dont think its a bureaucratic issue.


HAL isn't holding off on it, the file is with the Ministry of Finance now.


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