Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Jun 2020 04:24

Tell me about the Mig 21 Bison please.
What equipment it has? How many do we have?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 27 Jun 2020 04:32

ramana wrote:Tell me about the Mig 21 Bison please.
What equipment it has? How many do we have?

We started with around 125. Several have been lost since then. But still the total number should be around 110+.

Major changes from the base Mig-21 Bis include a new Phazotron Kopyo radar, BVR capability (R-77), R-73 integration with HMDS, bubble canopy, HUD, new countermeasure dispensing system, RWR and compatibility with the EL/L-8222 jamming pod.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Jun 2020 04:51

Thanks. Very good data.

I read 6 squadrons are there.
Wiki says:

MiG-21 Bison
Upgraded version for export, the Indian Air Force being the first customer. Equipped with the Phazotron Kopyo (Spear) airborne radar, which is capable of simultaneously tracking 8 targets and engaging 2 of them with semi-active radar homing air-to-air missiles, such as the Vympel R-27. The radar also enables the fighter to deploy active radar homing air-to-air missiles such as the Vympel R-77 when an additional channel is incorporated. Russia has claimed that this version is equivalent to the early F-16. The Indian Air Force has since then upgraded its avionics with the addition of a Helmet Mounted Sight, the ability to fire High Off-Boresight missiles like the R-73 (missile) and a Tactical Data Link, improving further its already formidable WVR Combat capability, and has performed very well even against F-15C Eagles in Cope India and Red Flag Exercises.[7]
MiG-21-97
MiG-21-93 upgrade. MiG-21-93 re-engined with the Klimov RD-33 engine. The Russians have claimed that the evaluation at Ramenskoye Airport had shown that this version has beaten simulated F-16 in a mock dogfight with a score of 4:1.[citation needed]

chetonzz · Post by **chetonzz** » 27 Jun 2020 08:39

ramana wrote:Tell me about the Mig 21 Bison please.
What equipment it has? How many do we have?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6xBRy6TSuCE

This will be more than enough

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 27 Jun 2020 09:40

on Mig 21 Bisons - They were upgrade of Mig 21 bs. It is alleged that India had more than 125 Mig 21bs (275 were made, as late as 1987), but only 125 were considered for upgrade. Rest of the Mig21bs that were not upgraded to bison standard still remain in service (perhaps 1 sq?),as they are the latest Mig 21 built in India.

If we retired Mig 21 FL only 6-7 years ago (this plane was manufactured at least 10-15 years earlier than Mig 21bs), we should have considerable high number of Mig 21bs (they were manufactured till 1987, 275 in number, some younger than our mirage 2000). Righly so, the exact number and planes are not in the open. Maybe there are no Mig21bs left, but if there are, is it too late to get them upgraded to Bisons standard in 2020? (perhaps get more LCA)

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 27 Jun 2020 13:41

Almost forgot about this lovely documentary.
The VayuSena at 50 Ft. MiG-23.

So many legends in the Video!

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 27 Jun 2020 18:34

Russia has brought/is bringing back the initial delivery of the s400 to this year

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/2020/06/2 ... off-a70707

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 27 Jun 2020 19:53

kit wrote:
ldev wrote:
The article says the bulk of the funds have been paid. So definitely more than 50%.

The bigger issue is not penalties but the urgency with which the system is needed. Like right now. The Russians have some large number of S400 regiments delivered to the Russian Air Force. Why can't India get a system or two delivered from their stock?
even better, they have started deploying S500s around Moscow !!.. sure they can spare a few 400s for "training purposes".. I think China will try to influence / bribe the Russians to delay the whole thing.. by the way what engine tech are they negotiating with the Russians .. i thought they bought Motor Sich lock stock and barrel !!

The quote from the article is re-produced below:

Chinese defence minister Wei Fenghe is also likely to be present at the event.
China has been pushing Moscow to deepen defence cooperation and obtain access to high-end Russian technology, especially in making jet engines.

If the article is accurate it would certainly refer to help in fighter jet engine technology. However on one hand China claims that it has replaced the Al-31 engine in the J-10 with the Chinese built WS-10 engine which has 3D thrust vectoring. Previously this engine was only powering the twin engined J-11s but maybe they are now considered reliable enough to power a single engined J-10. If that is the case I do not really know why they would need further engine technology from Russia. But the article states that.....though it is from the Economic Times, so who knows.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 Jun 2020 22:09

Gen.Bakshi on the TOI channel,Times Now,said this evening that
there were unconfrmed reports that the Chins had deployed S-400s in Ladakh. If true it adds a whole new dimension to the mil. task confronting us. Our immediate task is acquiring as many aircraft and helos of relevance to the existing fleet,asap.Bought or even leased. Outlined options earlier. We need to secure air dominance at the earliest should/when the balloon goes up.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 27 Jun 2020 23:31

MeshaVishwas wrote:Almost forgot about this lovely documentary.
The VayuSena at 50 Ft. MiG-23.

So many legends in the Video!

Mesha Saar, you rock! What an amazing video!

So nice to see VK Bhatia Sir!!

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 28 Jun 2020 02:22

Philip wrote:Gen.Bakshi on the TOI channel,Times Now,said this evening that
there were unconfrmed reports that the Chins had deployed S-400s in Ladakh. If true it adds a whole new dimension to the mil. task confronting us. Our immediate task is acquiring as many aircraft and helos of relevance to the existing fleet,asap.Bought or even leased. Outlined options earlier. We need to secure air dominance at the earliest should/when the balloon goes up.

I think it will be in Tibet, bringing it close to Ladakh will make it in Brahmos range.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 28 Jun 2020 02:38

Philip wrote:Gen.Bakshi on the TOI channel,Times Now,said this evening that
there were unconfrmed reports that the Chins had deployed S-400s in Ladakh. If true it adds a whole new dimension to the mil. task confronting us. Our immediate task is acquiring as many aircraft and helos of relevance to the existing fleet,asap.Bought or even leased. Outlined options earlier. We need to secure air dominance at the earliest should/when the balloon goes up.

They have deployed the HQ-9/S-300 to Hotan for the last 5 years and those missiles have a 200 km intercept range. So the S-400 won't make too much of a difference IF it is deployed. They probably have the HQ-9 also deployed at Ngari and Shigatse now.

Rs_singh · Post by **Rs_singh** » 28 Jun 2020 08:13

ldev wrote:
Philip wrote:Gen.Bakshi on the TOI channel,Times Now,said this evening that
there were unconfrmed reports that the Chins had deployed S-400s in Ladakh. If true it adds a whole new dimension to the mil. task confronting us. Our immediate task is acquiring as many aircraft and helos of relevance to the existing fleet,asap.Bought or even leased. Outlined options earlier. We need to secure air dominance at the earliest should/when the balloon goes up.
They have deployed the HQ-9/S-300 to Hotan for the last 5 years and those missiles have a 200 km intercept range. So the S-400 won't make too much of a difference IF it is deployed. They probably have the HQ-9 also deployed at Ngari and Shigatse now.

Yes, just like the s300 and it’s 500 variants based on land and on Moskva were Uber effective against innumerable IAF strikes in Syria, Libya and Lebanon. Not that these systems aren’t formidable but their makers are, shall we say, easily pliable.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Jun 2020 23:01

These are under Ru control from reports,the SAMs.There is a tacit understanding between the Izzys and Russkies not to tread on each other's toes in the region. However,export systems are generally not as capable as those for the Ru military,right from armour of export MBTs,electronics, radars, sonars,sensors,
decoys,etc. India has been about the only nation to be given similar std. eqpt. because we use them in combat and the feedback is invaluable to them .Take the MKIs for example.After seeing its performance in IAF colours,they developed their own variant slmost similar to ours.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 29 Jun 2020 21:36

The IAF’s diversified AAM inventory
https://www.vayuaerospace.in/article/29 ... -inventory
04 Sept 2019

Rs_singh · Post by **Rs_singh** » 30 Jun 2020 09:54

Philip wrote:These are under Ru control from reports,the SAMs.There is a tacit understanding between the Izzys and Russkies not to tread on each other's toes in the region. However,export systems are generally not as capable as those for the Ru military,right from armour of export MBTs,electronics, radars, sonars,sensors,
decoys,etc. India has been about the only nation to be given similar std. eqpt. because we use them in combat and the feedback is invaluable to them .Take the MKIs for example.After seeing its performance in IAF colours,they developed their own variant slmost similar to ours.

Are you suggesting Russians have been operating all same batteries in all nations IAF has struck in, unchallenged over the past two decades or so? Including Iran. ALL of them operate some Russian AD with some countries operating s300 or s300 type/clone system.

If so, then I would be really really surprized.

srai · Post by **srai** » 30 Jun 2020 13:56

Rakesh wrote:The IAF’s diversified AAM inventory
https://www.vayuaerospace.in/article/29 ... -inventory
04 Sept 2019

Not accurate on the part about Python-4 and 5.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 30 Jun 2020 14:14

srai wrote:
Rakesh wrote:The IAF’s diversified AAM inventory
https://www.vayuaerospace.in/article/29 ... -inventory
04 Sept 2019
Not accurate on the part about Python-4 and 5.

Not to mention the KS 172.... Man that one still lingers, even after decades. Much like the mythical backfire. and s300

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 30 Jun 2020 18:31

Hari Nair wrote:I said it before and am saying it clearly again - the development of the LCH was effectively completed well over a year ago....

Sir does that include the weapon to be carried - rockets and missiles. Have they been integrated and fired as per doctrine envisioned for LCH? Rudra rockets (not even missiles) were only finalized this year (imported UK maal), when over 50 of these are in service?

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 30 Jun 2020 18:47

Cain Marko wrote:
srai wrote: Not accurate on the part about Python-4 and 5.
Not to mention the KS 172.... Man that one still lingers, even after decades. Much like the mythical backfire. and s300

Russian was willing to sell us Bombers and we did not go for any TU(22 or 95 or 160 series) birds. That is simply the most astounding mystery (foolhardiness) i cannot fathom.Reflects very very poorly on the lack of strategic thought given that we do not have enough number of long range missiles to target Noodle cities and nerve centers. If the Balloon goes up again in another 2-3 years i am sure we will be in the same situation. At least now we should buy the bombers from Russia.

basant · Post by **basant** » 30 Jun 2020 19:34

fanne wrote:
Hari Nair wrote:I said it before and am saying it clearly again - the development of the LCH was effectively completed well over a year ago....
Sir does that include the weapon to be carried - rockets and missiles. Have they been integrated and fired as per doctrine envisioned for LCH? Rudra rockets (not even missiles) were only finalized this year (imported UK maal), when over 50 of these are in service?

HAL's Light Combat Helicopter completes weapon trials

BENGALURU: The Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) indigenously designed and developed by HAL has successfully carried out air to air missile firing on a moving aerial target. During the tests conducted in integrated test range at Chandipur, Odisha recently, the test pilots executed a flawless mission and achieved a direct hit on the aerial target, destroying it completely.

"This is the first time in the country that a helicopter has carried out air to air missile engagement. None of the helicopters with the military services in the country has demonstrated such a capability. With this, LCH has successfully completed all weapon integration tests and is ready for operational induction", said CMD, HAL, R Madhavan.

Other weapons on LCH include a 20mm Turret gun and 70 mm Rockets, the firing trials of which have already been completed last year.

LCH is capable of operating at altitudes as high as Siachen glacier. It was designed and developed by Rotary Wing Research & Design Centre (RWRDC) of HAL in response to the operational needs of Indian armed forces.

Equipped with a helmet mounted sight and a forward looking infrared sighting system, LCH pilots can now detect and destroy any target on ground or in the air. Using these sights, pilots can now launch a missile onto any target without having to turn the helicopter. The fire and forget missile is effective against all types of aerial threat, including UAVs and microlight aircraft.

It is also capable of operating from dispersed locations and flying at ultra low levels.

The DAC has accorded approval for procurement of initial batch of 15 LCHs (10 for IAF and 5 for Army). (Last Updated: Jan 17, 2019)

srai · Post by **srai** » 30 Jun 2020 21:43

^^^
IOC

FOC? ATGM?

basant · Post by **basant** » 30 Jun 2020 22:15

^^^
Updated in the original post.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Jun 2020 22:56

Rakesh wrote:The IAF’s diversified AAM inventory
https://www.vayuaerospace.in/article/29 ... -inventory
04 Sept 2019

Note that ASRAAM was decided for jaguar in 2014 and yet the Tejas trials had the R-73 and the Python.

There is a huge silo problem.

They could have talked BAE into setting up ASRAAM factory and/or offsets if they had made a quantity purchase for the fleet.
Why this ad hoc mentality?
Even now it will be piece meal purchases.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 01 Jul 2020 00:05

Just to be clear I am in 300% in favor of LCH. My questioning of it's weapon system is not to show it in bad light but to bring home the point that it is not 'fully' ready. The LCH just as a platform is fully ready as Sir HNair says (and being the TP, his is the final word on it), it has perhaps tested some weapons, what is the ATGM for this (Helina is not ready, not sure why). What rockets...do we have agreement with these foreign vendors. LCA still by cost is 50% foreign. LCH in the beginning could be like that till we have our own weapons.

Apache in that sense is very deadly and very advanced compared to LCH and at the same time perhaps equally costlier. We have some 28 of them (sufficient for 1 front war with TSP). Perhaps we can get some additional 10/20 to be spearhead, and then have at least 10 LCH per division for the mountain (that will be some 130-150 LCH right there) and few for the planes and JK. I think projected LCH numbers are correct. We should get cracking on that, budget permitting. Still some 50% of the LCH will go to 'exports' which hopefully will reduce over time.

arvin · Post by **arvin** » 01 Jul 2020 15:40

Rakesh wrote:The IAF’s diversified AAM inventory
https://www.vayuaerospace.in/article/29 ... -inventory
04 Sept 2019

Same story for MANPADS.
Despite kargil we still havent developed one and its variants.
Since we dont have local equivalent we purchased Igla. With Apache we purchased stinger air to air version. LCH is equipped with Mistral Air to Air version. IADWS will bring in more stinger FIM 92 L. If Korean biho comes we get chiron missile.
When Manpads tender concludes we get either Igla S or RBS 70.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 01 Jul 2020 17:52

arvin wrote:
Rakesh wrote:The IAF’s diversified AAM inventory
https://www.vayuaerospace.in/article/29 ... -inventory
04 Sept 2019
Same story for MANPADS.
Despite kargil we still havent developed one and its variants.
Since we dont have local equivalent we purchased Igla. With Apache we purchased stinger air to air version. LCH is equipped with Mistral Air to Air version. IADWS will bring in more stinger FIM 92 L. If Korean biho comes we get chiron missile.
When Manpads tender concludes we get either Igla S or RBS 70.

We will have MANPAD for each type of aircraft the Chinese field against us.

Rs_singh · Post by **Rs_singh** » 01 Jul 2020 22:09

ks_sachin wrote:We will have MANPAD for each type of aircraft the Chinese field against us.

I sense both sarcasm and frustration, but couldn’t agree more. Further what surprises me is the absolute wastage of funds on point defense AD. From a tactical perspective it makes little sense to invest heavily and diversify your MANPAD inventory since the engagement envelope for offense air far out ranges and outguns MANPADS. If anything, they’ll be used as a last resort. Still don’t get or understand the need for 500 shades of MANPAD. At the end of the day, they’re all an IR sensor and a KV with a different name. Further, countermeasures and flying have repeatedly shown capable of defeating manpads. I’m not suggesting we don’t have them, I’m only trying to understand the rhyme or reason for having. 50 different types. I can’t think of a reason, so we will go with rhyme on this one.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Jul 2020 02:56

US highlights CAATSA risk in Indian fighter procurement
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... rocurement

The comments come after Janes reported on 19 June that the IAF was looking to fast-track the procurement – valued at about USD $1.4 billion – of 21 used Mikoyan MiG-29 and 12 new Sukhoi Su-30MKI combat aircraft to boost its air combat capabilities. The move is partly in response to heightened border tensions between India and China. The IAF would aim to take delivery of the aircraft in 2022.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Jul 2020 03:00

Israeli smart bombs, French stealth cruise missiles to boost IAF strike prowess
https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2020/ ... owess.html
01 July 2020

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Jul 2020 03:03

Amidst China Border Heat, New Israeli Air Defence Kit For India?
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/07 ... india.html
01 July 2020

Jwala · Post by **Jwala** » 02 Jul 2020 06:20

Separate Subject as a newbie
I have a Russian language book that describes all the aircraft in the PLAAF. Is there someone who speaks Russian who would want this book that I can send it to. Its a well illustrated 230 pages book. FYI I am in the US and its a relatively recent 2013 edition written by a Russian author
If I don't hear of any names Ill just courier it to the Indian Embassy

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 02 Jul 2020 16:39

#Breaking Defence Acquisitions Council approves proposal for procurement of 12 Sukhoi-30MKIs & 21 MiG-29s, along with upgradation of existing 59 MiG-29s. The MiG-29 procurement & upgradation from Russia will cost Rs 7,418 crore. The 12 Sukhois from HAL around Rs 10,730 Cr.

https://twitter.com/rajatpTOI/status/12 ... 62432?s=19

The DAC overall accorded approval for capital acquisitions around Rs 38,900 crore. These include Pinaka ammunitions, BMP armament upgrades and Software Defined Radars for the Army, Long Range Land Attack Cruise Missile Systems and Astra Missiles for Navy and Air Force.

https://twitter.com/rajatpTOI/status/12 ... 55968?s=19

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 02 Jul 2020 16:41

So we are "upg-ing" the UPG birds?!
And why just 59?
IIRC, we have 64/65 birds yes?
But the best info yet is the Astra acquisition for the Navy!
So Baaz and Astra is game!

basant · Post by **basant** » 02 Jul 2020 17:12

MeshaVishwas wrote:...But the best info yet is the Astra acquisition for the Navy!
So Baaz and Astra is game!

The way I understand is LACM for Navy and Astra for AF. I don't think Mig29Ks can fire Astras as of now.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 02 Jul 2020 17:23

if we have R-77-1 we should be good on Mig29s.

John · Post by **John** » 02 Jul 2020 17:44

basant wrote:
MeshaVishwas wrote:...But the best info yet is the Astra acquisition for the Navy!
So Baaz and Astra is game!
The way I understand is LACM for Navy and Astra for AF. I don't think Mig29Ks can fire Astras as of now.

I believe LACM is Brahmos and it will be for both AF and Navy. Astra could be only for AF.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 02 Jul 2020 17:57

MeshaVishwas wrote:
#Breaking Defence Acquisitions Council approves proposal for procurement of 12 Sukhoi-30MKIs & 21 MiG-29s, along with upgradation of existing 59 MiG-29s. The MiG-29 procurement & upgradation from Russia will cost Rs 7,418 crore. The 12 Sukhois from HAL around Rs 10,730 Cr.

Cost per Sukhoi 30 MKI is Rs 894 Crores ie $119 Million

Mollick.R · Post by **Mollick.R** » 02 Jul 2020 17:57

India approves massive defence-related proposals including 33 new fighter aircraft
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 740252.cms

Defence Ministry approves proposal to acquire 33 new fighter aircraft from Russia including 12 Su-30MKIs and 21 MiG-29s along with upgradation of 59 existing MiG-29s.

Defence Ministry also cleared the acquisition of 248 Astra Beyond Visual Range air to air missiles for the Indian Air Force and the Navy. Design and development of a new 1,000 kilometre strike range Land Attack Cruise Missile by DRDO has also been cleared.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 02 Jul 2020 18:01

@Vipin saar

Yeah, very much on the higher side, last report I remember quoted $62M for the Rambha from HAL. Maybe includes additional spares?

Edit:Indian Express says cost for a HAL built Su-30MKI is ₹415 crores (March,2020 article). So around $56 million.