Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

idan · Post by **idan** » 02 Jul 2020 18:04

Mollick.R wrote:India approves massive defence-related proposals including 33 new fighter aircraft
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 740252.cms

So we need more such incursions from the Chinese side periodically to get files moving and approvals done ... what a sad state of affairs!

basant · Post by **basant** » 02 Jul 2020 18:27

^^^
This is from DAC, the same body that approved several other indigenous purchases that were not cleared by MoD! That includes practically taking delivery of LCHs that have been languishing!

srin · Post by **srin** » 02 Jul 2020 18:40

Exactly - we need to wait for CCS approval.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Jul 2020 19:16

Beautiful news!!!!

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/127 ... 28960?s=20 ----> Anyway, in some good news for indigenization and the future preparedness of the Indian Air Force and the Indian Navy's air wing, the acquisition of *248* DRDO developed Astra MK-1 beyond visual range air to air missiles has been approved by the Defence Ministry.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/127 ... 54304?s=20 ----> IAF fighters that will carry the Astra Mk-1: Su-30MKI, Tejas & eventually MiG-29UPG. IN's Mig-29K's will also carry it. As will TEDBF, once that is developed.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 02 Jul 2020 19:20

DAC->MoD->MoF->CCS or additional steps involved ?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Jul 2020 19:21

I believe this has been cleared by the DAC.

50 Astra Mk1s were the initial batch. Another 248 would bring the tally to approximately 300 missiles.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Jul 2020 19:27

Twitter thread on the S-400 and other IAF equipment...do read....

https://twitter.com/vkthakur/status/127 ... 36481?s=20

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 02 Jul 2020 19:39

What is this new upgrade for the existing 29s? Zhuk AESA on the way?( if it is ready)

srai · Post by **srai** » 02 Jul 2020 19:45

MeshaVishwas wrote:So we are "upg-ing" the UPG birds?!
And why just 59?
IIRC, we have 64/65 birds yes?
But the best info yet is the Astra acquisition for the Navy!
So Baaz and Astra is game!

Probably talking about the upgrade of those new 21 “old” MiG-29 airframes to the same IAF UPG standard.

mody · Post by **mody** » 02 Jul 2020 20:16

The amount of Rs. 7,418/- crores for 21 Mig-29s seems to suggest, deal only for the planes and upgrade of the 21 birds to UPG standard. No further upgrade of the existing Mig-29s.
The EW upgrade of the same is still ongoing I guess. So signing up for some additional goodies doesn't seem plausible. Besides the Russians don't really have anything new to offer. The Zhuk-AE was available at the time of the last upgrade deal as well, however it didn't pass muster.

Defence decode on YouTube is reporting that from the Astra contract 200 are to be for IAF and 48 for the Navy. So it seems that Astra integration on Mig-29 has probably started or the people involved seem to be fairly confident, that it will be a straight forward affair.

The long range cruise missile is the Nirbhay. Repotedly upto 20 tests have been approved.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 02 Jul 2020 20:19

7400 crore INR for 21 mig29smt. That's less than 50 million $s per unit? Seems reasonable for airframes that have not seen any flight so far. Iirc there were 39 such frames, wonder why we didn't pick them all...

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 02 Jul 2020 20:21

So no russian manufacturing or component dependency? completely made in HAL for both Su-30 and Mig-29s?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Jul 2020 20:40

mody wrote:The amount of Rs. 7,418/- crores for 21 Mig-29s seems to suggest, deal only for the planes and upgrade of the 21 birds to UPG standard. No further upgrade of the existing Mig-29s.

There is no financial incentive to further upgrade the MiG-29, than what is already there on the UPG variant now. And in an emergency, getting the same standard of aircraft makes sense. Although the 2022 arrival date will do nothing for the emergency right now. At the least the file moved. With the MoD, that is an amazing achievement

mody wrote:Defence decode on YouTube is reporting that from the Astra contract 200 are to be for IAF and 48 for the Navy. So it seems that Astra integration on Mig-29 has probably started or the people involved seem to be fairly confident, that it will be a straight forward affair.

Happy to see Astra integration aboard the MiG-29. Start replacing all the older stocks of R-27s and R-77s.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Jul 2020 20:42

vijayk wrote:So no russian manufacturing or component dependency? completely made in HAL for both Su-30 and Mig-29s?

The 12 Su-30s are for attrition replacements.

The MiG-29s will come in CKD or SKD kits from Russia. They will be assembled in India and upgraded to the UPG standard. Most likely to happen at IAF base repair depot at Ozhar.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 02 Jul 2020 20:46

we have only lost 6 SU30MKI so far. 12 will be helpful - perhaps 6 to cover future attrition or 6 extra as upgrade. You pick 6+6 (12 per year current capacity of HAL) in two lots and upgrade them, that way all current SQ remain full strength even when 6 of their plane is in upgrade. If we do 12 upgrade per year it will take 23 years to upgrade the last ones.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 02 Jul 2020 20:46

We have all the spares and weaponry for the Su 30. These are most likely the Super Sukhoi with Uttam Aesa. We have lost 9 Su-30MKIs.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Jul 2020 20:48

fanne wrote:we have only lost 6 SU30MKI so far. 12 will be helpful - perhaps 6 to cover future attrition or 6 extra as upgrade. You pick 6+6 (12 per year current capacity of HAL) in two lots and upgrade them, that way all current SQ remain full strength even when 6 of their plane is in upgrade. If we do 12 upgrade per year it will take 23 years to upgrade the last ones.

Aditya_V wrote:We have all the spares and weaponry for the Su 30. These are most likely the Super Sukhoi with Uttam Aesa. We have lost 9 Su-30MKIs.

The IAF has lost 11 Rambhas to date. See link below.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Datab ... d=74&qt=TY

chola · Post by **chola** » 02 Jul 2020 20:58

^^^ There is attrition for any type. USAF F-15 losses are well over 100.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Jul 2020 21:23

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... 50946?s=20 ---> Russia will accelerate the implementation of Delhi's delivery of S-400 anti-aircraft missile systems (SAM), and will also intensify negotiations on the supply of 33 jets, MiG-29 and Su-30MKI. S-400 delivery to start from Dec 2020, earlier the timeline was, from Oct 2021.

idan · Post by **idan** » 02 Jul 2020 21:38

For $2.5 billion, Russia sold 24 Su-35S to China fully loaded with R-27, R-73, RVV-family missiles and Kh-35E anti-ship missiles. We are buying Soviet era Mig 29 airframes that were stored for a very long time!

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 02 Jul 2020 21:57

Rakesh wrote:
fanne wrote:we have only lost 6 SU30MKI so far. 12 will be helpful - perhaps 6 to cover future attrition or 6 extra as upgrade. You pick 6+6 (12 per year current capacity of HAL) in two lots and upgrade them, that way all current SQ remain full strength even when 6 of their plane is in upgrade. If we do 12 upgrade per year it will take 23 years to upgrade the last ones.

Aditya_V wrote:We have all the spares and weaponry for the Su 30. These are most likely the Super Sukhoi with Uttam Aesa. We have lost 9 Su-30MKIs.
The IAF has lost 11 Rambhas to date. See link below.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Datab ... d=74&qt=TY

Which is the weird thing, ordering only for the ones we have already lost like and not for future losses, we could have easily added 24-36 without adding any new squadrons and making space for attrition losses and active replacements for when the super upgrade starts.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 02 Jul 2020 22:04

abhik wrote:
Rakesh wrote:
The IAF has lost 11 Rambhas to date. See link below.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Datab ... d=74&qt=TY
Which is the weird thing, ordering only for the ones we have already lost like and not for future losses, we could have easily added 24-36 without adding any new squadrons and making space for attrition losses and active replacements for when the super upgrade starts.

Saar, now every aircraft is competing against Tejas for funds.Another 24-36 Rambhas and BAM!, 24-36 new committies and postponed Tejas orders will follow.
Last Tejas order was in last decade or century(it has been so long that I don't even remember)

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Jul 2020 22:07

Mesha Saar, allow me to respectfully correct you.

Every aircraft acquired is competing against MMRCA.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 02 Jul 2020 22:19

Rambha line had come to a halt earlier this year, Tejas still has a year or two to go - it's just our style to order a few years too late onlee, so we can expect Tejas happening after 2 years.

In all seriousness though the purse strings need to be opened up, there is alternative, at current levels we are not able to cover even the meagre import-giri we are doing. IMO the defence budget needs to be hiked by 1 lac Cr (no I'm not kidding) for the next 3 years and then stabilised at min 1% of GDP thereafter to be able to defend from China.

idan · Post by **idan** » 02 Jul 2020 22:30

not to forget the money gone down the drain for Jaguar upgrade

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 02 Jul 2020 23:02

Rakesh wrote:Mesha Saar, allow me to respectfully correct you.

Every aircraft acquired is competing against MMRCA.

Admiral, +1.
Big picture view of yours is on target.
One vist by RM to Putinland in this order backdrop and suddenly Florence Parly gets all warm and fuzzy followed by Khan making Acronyms sound scary.
Swedes as usual will get participation medal and Londonistan is curiously silent .

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 02 Jul 2020 23:04

MeshaVishwas wrote:So we are "upg-ing" the UPG birds?!

The press either misunderstood what they said or they are probably talking about equipping the current Mig-29UPG fleet with DARE's new D-29 SPJ. There's nothing else left to be upgraded in the existing Mig-29's.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 02 Jul 2020 23:06

srai wrote:
MeshaVishwas wrote:So we are "upg-ing" the UPG birds?!
And why just 59?
IIRC, we have 64/65 birds yes?
But the best info yet is the Astra acquisition for the Navy!
So Baaz and Astra is game!
Probably talking about the upgrade of those new 21 “old” MiG-29 airframes to the same IAF UPG standard.

59 MiG29s being upgraded - indicates series induction of D-29 EW suite. Remember, only 6 came "ready" for it, and trials were underway.

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 93155?s=19
FWIW
Maybe Karan can help clear the air.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 02 Jul 2020 23:07

nachiket wrote:
MeshaVishwas wrote:So we are "upg-ing" the UPG birds?!
The press either misunderstood what they said or they are probably talking about equipping the current Mig-29UPG fleet with DARE's new D-29 SPJ. There's nothing else left to be upgraded in the existing Mig-29's.

I think you are right,but numbers still don't add up, or are we keeping the UB models out of the count?!
Edit: Saw my above quote from twitterverse.
So 6 already equipped with the D-29, 59 more to go.

idan · Post by **idan** » 02 Jul 2020 23:12

All this amounts to $ 2.4 billion. If negotiated properly we could have got another squadron of Rafale. Are we bribing Russia? I hate to see Raksha Mantri and GOI capitulate due to the China situation. Wasted money on an under powered Jaguar. This is how we loose money!

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 02 Jul 2020 23:24

As usual, happy foreign shopping for the services and ofb/hal are also not helping with delivery. Bloody GoI, could not move dhanush to another state due to lockdown... wtf. Sometimes, I feel whole lot is rotten even they don’t care what Modi ji say or do. God save us ....

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 02 Jul 2020 23:36

abhik wrote:
Rakesh wrote:
The IAF has lost 11 Rambhas to date. See link below.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Datab ... d=74&qt=TY
Which is the weird thing, ordering only for the ones we have already lost like and not for future losses, we could have easily added 24-36 without adding any new squadrons and making space for attrition losses and active replacements for when the super upgrade starts.

Why not order another 272 as one to one replacement. Anyway, we need Rafale to protect us from Napak. Why do we need MiG-29 or Su-30??

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 02 Jul 2020 23:38

MeshaVishwas wrote: I think you are right,but numbers still don't add up, or are we keeping the UB models out of the count?!
Edit: Saw my above quote from twitterverse.
So 6 already equipped with the D-29, 59 more to go.

You have a point about the UB's though. They aren't combat capable (no radar) so they're unlikely to have received the upgrade.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Jul 2020 23:57

RKumar wrote:Why not order another 272 as one to one replacement. Anyway, we need Rafale to protect us from Napak. Why do we need MiG-29 or Su-30??

For What?

What do you think this is? Buying cadbury chocolate bar?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 02 Jul 2020 23:59

VikramS wrote: 3. War Time Equipment Transfer: Precedence There is a lot of precedence for this. From the US led Lend-Lease program in WW-II, to the transfer of Jordanian F-104s to PAF 1971, this is nothing new.

Would help to do some basic research. PAF had been flying F-104's for ten years by the time of the 1971 war. It's no different than India buying some extra Mig-29's or Su-30's during an emergency. Buying additional stocks of existing weapons is a whole lot different than buying an entirely new complex weapon system that you want to be magically operational and combat ready in a few weeks.

On the other hand, look at how little we used the Mig-21's in the 1965 war. They had entered service in 1963, 2 years prior. Contrast that with their extensive use in 1971 when the IAF was fully ready to employ them to their full potential. They made practically no difference in 1965 vs their impact in 1971. I hope everyone here asking for "X" weapon system to be quickly deployed in Ladakh understands this. It is really not that hard.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 03 Jul 2020 00:08

Rakesh wrote:
RKumar wrote:Why not order another 272 as one to one replacement. Anyway, we need Rafale to protect us from Napak. Why do we need MiG-29 or Su-30??
For What?

What do you think this is? Buying cadbury chocolate bar?

Sir you missed the forest for a tree sir.... I am dead against these orders. When Namica, Arjun, LCH and Tejas are still waiting for orders due to so called lack of money.

I truely believe that smaller actions are more important than bigger actions. I feel Modi ji is fighting alone against the system. He alone can’t do the work of thousands people, many of such people hate him to the core. Less I say the better at this moment that’s why I am not posting much.

debadutta · Post by **debadutta** » 03 Jul 2020 00:19

i am a newbie and have no clue about fighter planes. just looking at all the discussion it seems to me at least that more than the planes themselves the missiles and the radar matter more. Is this a correct understanding ? For example if LCA could fire all the latest Air to Air missiles with a decent radar then is it equal to or better than a costly 2 seater Su 30 MKI ?

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 03 Jul 2020 00:29

I'm hoping this order is the phoren part of what is about to come for local industry...

It is absolutely insane that they are not using the great appetite of the forces for hardware to boost the economy. Have they never heard of a war economy? It's what brought the US out of the great depression.

Order books for Desi private sector should be full...100s of LCA, Arjun, lch, netra, minesweepers, nluh, ammo, cold weather kits, etc etc will create jobs. Nothing better than the spectre of war to get the economy motivated!

Mollick.R · Post by **Mollick.R** » 03 Jul 2020 00:37

nachiket wrote:
VikramS wrote: 3. War Time Equipment Transfer: Precedence There is a lot of precedence for this. From the US led Lend-Lease program in WW-II, to the transfer of Jordanian F-104s to PAF 1971, this is nothing new.
Would help to do some basic research. PAF had been flying F-104's for ten years by the time of the 1971 war. It's no different than India buying some extra Mig-29's or Su-30's during an emergency. Buying additional stocks of existing weapons is a whole lot different than buying an entirely new complex weapon system that you want to be magically operational and combat ready in a few weeks.

On the other hand, look at how little we used the Mig-21's in the 1965 war. They had entered service in 1963, 2 years prior. Contrast that with their extensive use in 1971 when the IAF was fully ready to employ them to their full potential. They made practically no difference in 1965 vs their impact in 1971. I hope everyone here asking for "X" weapon system to be quickly deployed in Ladakh understands this. It is really not that hard.

+101
Serious off roaders (Bike or Four wheeler based), don't even plan a Shimla-Kulu Manali-Leh-Ladakh trip without through planning about on route service centres and carry most essential Bike/4 wheeler spare parts along with them for eventualities, plus many among them are excellent hands on mechanic to do the repair job. This is I'm speaking about a good several decade old tech. bikes/cars which they know by its rev.

And here in BRF we are talking about going on operational deployment of "Lend-Lease" military systems within weeks/months.

No such fantasy Please..................

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 03 Jul 2020 04:48

Clearly, the costs for the Su-30MKI includes much more than just the aircraft.

Since the Su-30MKI line is now most likely to end after this order, this must've included a large stock of spares as well to keep a high rate of availability for the fleet.

Also, if MiG-29UPGs are targeted to be integrated with the Astra, then so can the MiG-29K. There is a high degree of commonality in systems between the two, including radar.