India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Philip » 03 Jul 2020 15:12

Great morale-boost for the forces and a signal message uo the Chins,Quit Indian territory. The GOI should follow this up with increased mil purchases as India was always invaded when it was militarily weak.A strong economy,a rich country is right for plunder when its security is neglected,especially when you have the world's largest bully on your borders.

Lease- as NATO did on Afg. of helos is what is immediately required apart from aircraft ,esp. heavy lift helos so that men and material,LW arty.,AVs,MBTs,SP SAM systems,mobile radars,MBRLs, etc.can be swiftly deployed plus heavy construction eqpt. to continue border infra apace. Our advantage from operating at lower alt. airlifting more eqpt. than the Chins must be leveraged in the months before winter sets in.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby arshyam » 03 Jul 2020 15:12

Dumal wrote:
MeshaVishwas wrote:Sixer by PM Modi!


Any pointers to what the insignia on the cap he is wearing ?

XIV Corps

I also liked the way he made use of the words fire and fury when talking about the XIV corps...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby RaviB » 03 Jul 2020 15:27

mahadevbhu wrote:The aforementioned warontherocks article is good.vipin narang and the other guy.along with him..very good stuff..


Not really, it is a rehash of Dan Altman's work on faits accompli in land grabs. It's all right but theory is fine for understanding the past but not determining the future. I mean Balakot went completely against whatever Narang and Clary had been spouting on deterrence till then.

For those looking for more substantial stuff, I can recommend the following two articles by Rajesh Rajagopalan and Brahma Chellaney

China Throws Down a Challenge to India
Brhama Chellaney: The Indian Army today is capable of repulsing a PLA attack and inflicting heavy losses. But do we have the political will?

India can’t afford to be defensive against China like it has been with Pakistan on terror
Avoiding war with China will cost Delhi in long run. Beijing’s LAC aggression will return. Rajesh Rajagopalan

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 03 Jul 2020 15:35

Just before Balakot strike, the Narang dude was declaring how India hasn't thought it through, if it ever went for an air strike. These jokers were super confident that Pak's TNW would prevent any Indian action and India had no CS kind of capability..

I haven't heard a word about CS after Balakot from these jokers.. :rotfl:

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby putnanja » 03 Jul 2020 17:22

Not sure if this was posted before from apparently an ex-co of 16 Bihar...

Splitting the Anatomy of the Galwan Valley Bloodshed

...
Indian troops before pulling out wanted to ensure that Chinese too had pulled out. Information available from various accounts suggests that a patrol of 10 men under a Major from 4 Mahar/16 Bihar was sent to ascertain this fact. They found the tent and burnt it, as they were returning they were surrounded and captured because Chinese were fully armed.

As soon as CO 16 Bihar, Col Santosh Babu learnt this, he rushed to the spot with 30 men to negotiate this. It is learnt that Chinese were on a higher ground and Indian patrol party was slowly climbing. We must know that at 15,000 feet and so, the foot movement is very sluggish and slow. One can not rush and climb. One loses breath, also the track was so narrow that one could only move in a single file — one man behind the other. This is why the road to PP-14was constructed. The news is that the job has been done.

As the Col Santosh ‘s party was some 60-100 meters from Chinese tent , they shouted at him to come alone if he wanted to negotiate about the patrol. . Col Santosh agreed and moved up with two Men. It may be noted that CO and his two men were unarmed, as is the norm in all such flag meetings. After reaching they had a heated exchange for 4-5 minutes but Chinese gave in and agreed to withdraw. As soon as the CO and his men turned, Chinese attacked him with nailed Clubs and all three fell badly wounded.

Seeing this rest of the CO party radioed it to the base and charged towards the Chinese. A hand to hand fight began. Indians had bayonets charged to rifles as an answer to Chinese nailed Clubs and Iron rods. It may be noted that Indians are well trained in close combat and bayonet fighting.

In the meanwhile, Chinese reinforcements of 400 men joined but so did 200 men from 16 Bihar and adjoining units. Thus it became a joint operation of mixed troops also from Arty, Mahar and Punjab Regiments. Accounts now filtering out are that 16 Bihar men and other Indian troops had gone berserk. The Ghatak platoons (Commandos) of other battalions had joined in. Chinese were running a halter smelter. The troops were 16 Bihar, 3 Punjab, 4 Mahar, 3 Med Regt and 181 Field Regt. It was a joint operation.

A Deccan Chronicle report of June 19, 2020 gives out a survivor participant’s account to say that a minimum of 18 PLA soldiers' necks were snapped —— they could be seen with their necks dangling from their bodies.

Another report from a JCO, as an eye witness of Arty, who came with the mortal remains of another Arty JCO to Patiala, corroborates the ferocity of all men charging the Chinese. He gave the story of 16 Bihar men going berserk and blasting the life out of PLA soldiers. In this melee Chinese Bulldozer caused a landslide and with it many PLA Soldiers went hundreds of feet into the icy Cold River Galwan and probably died.

Upon talking to OC Rear of 16 Bihar, it turned out that Lt Col Maninder Nagpal (2ic), Capt Arjun dDeshpande (3yrs), Capt Manangma (2yrs) of 16 Bihar were the most daring and they ferociously led their troops to avenge the death of their CO. Another soldier of the Arty regiment, Sepoy Surinder Singh is stated to have killed 10 PLA Soldiers with his sword. He is an Amritdhari Sikh. He too got wounded in the head and is convalescing in Leh Hospital.
...
...
Some Indian estimates put the Chinese casualties at 43. This they estimate from the helicopter trips coming to collect the casualties, which India allowed . But American report from intercepts suggests that there were 35 dead, possibly a few officers including Cols and Majors. This does not include the soldiers who went down in the river when the landslide took place. Therefore some estimates say that China suffered between 128 to 150 casualties.
...
...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jul 2020 18:00

No more discussion of IAF platforms (current, future and fantasy) in this thread.

I had to ban two posters yesterday for the same reason. No more, otherwise I will issue bans again.

I have moved all the posts out of this thread and into the IAF: News & Discussion Thread.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jul 2020 18:10

https://twitter.com/BharatShaktiBSI/sta ... 11616?s=20 ---> Pictures of troops at Leh during PM Narendra Modi's visit

Image

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jul 2020 18:12

https://twitter.com/BharatShaktiBSI/sta ... 86560?s=20 ---> Narendra Modi meeting the injured soldiers at Military Hospital, Leh during his visit earlier in the day.

Image

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby darshan » 03 Jul 2020 18:33

Back to basics.

Has GoI started training and recruiting more people for logistics and medical?

Troops concentrated and designer chinese virus. Chinese don't have to fire a bullet. Hopefully, all the ayurvedic and immunity boosting teachings are being followed by troops.

Knowledge transfer and apprenticeship should also be high priority items.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby KL Dubey » 03 Jul 2020 18:42

Great visit and speech by PM Modi! This was needed and welcome for the forces. Wonderful pics too. After getting rid of 120+ PLA on June 15, the jawans seem to be recovering well.

I am told the PLA doesn't bother to give any acknowledgement, recognition, let alone proper arrangements for dead and retired personnel.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby sudham » 03 Jul 2020 18:43

LakshmanPST wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote:We have the analysis of the China-India conflict from a Chinese perspective, right here, it has been posted before on BRF.

https://warontherocks.com/2020/06/china ... akh-clash/

Reading this article...


Completely agree.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 03 Jul 2020 19:13

An upbeat account from a retired IFS for a change.
'Xi will have to quit, CCP end is nigh' | Indian Diplomat on Modi Ladakh Visit | NewsX


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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby SSridhar » 03 Jul 2020 19:14

Sudham, you don't have to repost the whole one to 'completely agree'. This increases page count, clutter & bandwidth

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Philip » 03 Jul 2020 19:20

Good analysis of the Chin mentality.
Accounts of the battle are corroborated too by the few of our
men who were captured and released later,who said the Chins were terrified by the ferocity of our counter attacks,expecting further attacks that night.

The scant regard for the lives lost on the Chin side by their fascist pig XI, must be exploited to the hilt by our propaganda machine,broadcasting to the Chins,leaflets dropped by balloons ,mortars,etc., how their dead were dishonoured by their No.1 leader.No funerals,no last rites by relatives, no mention at all of their deaths fighting for what? As if they never existed! We must rub salt into the mental wounds of the Chin soldiers and use the same in Chin social media posted from Hong Kong,wherever it's possible. Demoralising the Chins must be kept up non-stop,telling them that worse is to come if they do not retreat and go home,back to Beijing.That Tibet will become an unsung graveyard for their bodies.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rs_singh » 03 Jul 2020 19:21

In case you guys wanted to listen to just the speech by the PM:

https://youtu.be/KpeFgv4wXHc

RaviB, I suppose this is as good of an intent to wage war declaration as you’ll get, at least the best I’ve seen so far. The Man is clearly a leader and has no qualms about leading from the front. He said something to the effect of “ we want peace and tranquility, but we also know that can only be achieved through the use of arms, veer bhogya vasundhara”. Couple of other interesting points I gathered from his speech and the sneaky DD “audience shots” :

1. This was a morale raising exercise for the warriors on the ground. For what purpose would you want to raise morale? To prepare for a future contingency, I say.
2. True to its tradition, IA boys were better equipped with newer eqpt than the offrs. Offrs always come last. Good going.
3. The Man is tired. He sounds tired. He could have done a virtual summit, but he chose to fly out and do this in person. Speaks volumes.

I think he is galvanizing the country. Expect something to come shortly.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby TKiran » 03 Jul 2020 19:23

The major impediment to deployment of forces forward along LAC for China is supply routes. Traditional supply routes are 3000 km away.

Guru's, how well Nepal could be supplying food and water to the little princes? Is there any capability with RAW or MI to disrupt these lines? How about Pakistan supplying through Karakoram highway and subsequently G219? I am sure though Tibet is almost 75% areawise to India, it can't supply to PLA troops (30000).

What is the possibility of us holding the PLA troops for 3 months by cutting off their supply lines through covert means?

Is there a possibility of sending propaganda pamflets to Tibetans in PLA and instigate them to do a coup with a promise to induct them into Indian armed forces after the war?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby darshhan » 03 Jul 2020 19:38

fanne wrote:
darshhan wrote:Is this the number of chinese KIA?


yes


If this is indeed the case then either Xi jinping will have to order the chinese military to attack us(i.e if we do not attack them earlier) or xi jinping will have to resign soon.

Because even if somehow Xi manages to hide these figures from chinese public(very difficult these days), the opposing factions in Chinese Communist party will know about these figures and will be out for his bacon. No two ways about it.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby srin » 03 Jul 2020 19:38

Propaganda is so yesterday, psyops is the contemporary technique :D

The past few weeks have exposed glaring weaknesses & fissures that we can and should exploit in a very subtle way
- Little emperors giving up lives and ending the family line for some piece of land "where not a blade of grass grows"
- CCP doesn't care for the PLA, just look at how the dead were treated.
- PLA doesn't have honor, they are armed with sticks
- Eleven has lost control of the PLA, coup in the offing
- China has no friends other than Bakistan and NoKo, and they too haven't really supported them
- PLA doesn't know war unlike Indian Army which is battle skilled.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby dinesh_kimar » 03 Jul 2020 19:45

From ldev's posts above, asking about a 1000 km range solution, I can't believe our learned gurus are talking about a supposed long range brahmos or Shaurya.

Have all forgotten the single stage Agni -1, which DRDO identified, tested and productionised for just such a gap of between 700 to 1000+ km ?

It has been inducted in forces for a while now.

Another solution is the submarine launched K-15 /B-05 which is again inducted, and can reach this range. It is cannisterised system, land launch is possible.

Both the above options are easier to produce,being single stage, and are indigenous solutions, which reduce foreign interference, critical in the present situation.

Also, there are American sources on the internet which say that existing Agni 3 can reach Shanghai (3300 km) when launched from Assam, part of OSINT.

Learned gurus know that Beijing is much closer than Shanghai.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby darshan » 03 Jul 2020 20:15

The main difference between Modi and kukarmi nehru is that while nehru would have made brave soldiers touch his feet, Modi would not think twice before bowing down and touching brave soldiers feet that are defending the motherland.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby RaviB » 03 Jul 2020 20:18

I'd mentioned earlier that Beijing's decision to go kinetic will be reflected in diplomatic bluster first. Their official spokeperson, Zhao Lijian used the term "strategic miscalculation" today, following PM Modi's visit to Nimu. This is classical Chinese code language which precedes attacks.

The countdown is now on. Unless something major changes, we will have shooting within the next 3 days.

Edit
Rs_singh wrote:I
RaviB, I suppose this is as good of an intent to wage war declaration as you’ll get, at least the best I’ve seen so far. The Man is clearly a leader and has no qualms about leading from the front. He said something to the effect of “ we want peace and tranquility, but we also know that can only be achieved through the use of arms, veer bhogya vasundhara”. Couple of other interesting points I gathered from his speech and the sneaky DD “audience shots” :

1. This was a morale raising exercise for the warriors on the ground. For what purpose would you want to raise morale? To prepare for a future contingency, I say.
2. True to its tradition, IA boys were better equipped with newer eqpt than the offrs. Offrs always come last. Good going.
3. The Man is tired. He sounds tired. He could have done a virtual summit, but he chose to fly out and do this in person. Speaks volumes.

I think he is galvanizing the country. Expect something to come shortly.


Yes, I didn't see your post earlier but both sides have now given the signals that things are going to get hot. PM Modi's visit is about morale raising but also about messaging. It's also kind of like burning the bridges behind you. Mr. Modi just made it a lot more difficult for himself to back down. There have also been talks with foreign secretaries of a small group of "trusted countries", which also looks like final preparation for war.
Last edited by RaviB on 03 Jul 2020 20:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rs_singh » 03 Jul 2020 20:21

RaviB wrote:I'd mentioned earlier that Beijing's decision to go kinetic will be reflected in diplomatic bluster first. Their official spokeperson, Zhao Lijian used the term "strategic miscalculation" today, following PM Modi's visit to Nimu. This is classical Chinese code language which precedes attacks.

The countdown is now on. Unless something major changes, we will have shooting within the next 3 days.


I suppose now’s as good as a time as any. So be it. 3 days you say? I’d say 24 hrs. I sincerely hope both of us are proven wrong.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jul 2020 20:23

SSridhar wrote:Sudham, you don't have to repost the whole one to 'completely agree'. This increases page count, clutter & bandwidth

Exactly! Everyone please follow SSridhar Sir's guideline. I have edited Sudham's post. Thank You.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby mahadevbhu » 03 Jul 2020 20:23

srin wrote:Propaganda is so yesterday, psyops is the contemporary technique :D

The past few weeks have exposed glaring weaknesses & fissures that we can and should exploit in a very subtle way
- Little emperors giving up lives and ending the family line for some piece of land "where not a blade of grass grows"
- CCP doesn't care for the PLA, just look at how the dead were treated.
- PLA doesn't have honor, they are armed with sticks
- Eleven has lost control of the PLA, coup in the offing
- China has no friends other than Bakistan and NoKo, and they too haven't really supported them
- PLA doesn't know war unlike Indian Army which is battle skilled.


1. Eleven is dictator for life - so he is now in the realm of Mao and Deng Xiaopeng. This is similar to Putin who has also recently made himself dictator for life.

2. These are dangerous times -- the longer these guys are in power, the more deluded they get and the more crazy they get - hope this doesn't escalate into an all out war.

3. I don't expect India to take back the land, but I do expect the IA to have a forward policy of creeping back land from China.

4. India will draw closer to the US, will take part in the Quad, there will be an American MMRCA / JSF and there will be more integration of Indian MIC to the US MIC - which is good. That is how the best technology standards will flow to India - what the Chinese have done in their industrial complex, will be done in India's Military Industrial complex - thereby giving us a sustained technological edge over them. They may have the quantity edge though.

5. This is a strategic Own-goal by the CPC - or they don't care. War is inevitable. The sooner we start it the better it is. The more coordinated we are, the better it is. The question is, that can we have the US involved in it from the get-go? What sort of a plan-of-action do we need to have - what sort of military objective, in order to have them involved from the get-go?

6.If the objective is regime change and the removal of the CPC - but the US is too slow to latch on to this objective. The fall of the USSR didn't exactly flower a huge number of democracies in its wake - there were just all these dictatorships which resulted. Russia is still a US enemy, though it had a setback with the breakup of the USSR.

7. China being made to fall in a similar manner should be a stated Indian/US objective. Conversion of China into a democracy, through internal machinations. However, it is really tough to engineer that - the CPC is the single largest, single most powerful entity on the planet, and it will be enormously tough to bring it down. They are vulnerable to information warfare, but are too powerful to fall for it. It will likely take a world war to break them up, which no one has an appetite for. Having an internal revolution foment strong enough to get them out will be well nigh impossible. Guess that we are in for pax-Sinica and pax-CPC, with their ideas, ways, and manners being spread far and wide. Centralized control of populaces, surveillance states, centralized digitized messages, strong, tall leaders and technological and economic warfare.

8. Question is - how does private industry - private companies compete with the might of the CPC+industrial complex, where the state supports its own industry in a fairly impressive manner, and promotes their own companies to take over international markets.
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/05/ ... e-to-play/

Watch for more of this -- this is how the competition will play out --
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46462858
Banning of apps, arrests of Indians in China and Chinese in India and the US.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby RaviB » 03 Jul 2020 20:29

Rs_singh wrote:
RaviB wrote:I'd mentioned earlier that Beijing's decision to go kinetic will be reflected in diplomatic bluster first. Their official spokeperson, Zhao Lijian used the term "strategic miscalculation" today, following PM Modi's visit to Nimu. This is classical Chinese code language which precedes attacks.

The countdown is now on. Unless something major changes, we will have shooting within the next 3 days.


I suppose now’s as good as a time as any. So be it. 3 days you say? I’d say 24 hrs. I sincerely hope both of us are proven wrong.


I just edited my post to reply to you :) but yes I think within the next 72 hours, could be 24 but probably not.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rs_singh » 03 Jul 2020 20:32

RaviB,

Thanks haha.

Question for all, when this war begins, do you think it will be war to restore status quo with all limitations imposed on the military, ala Kargil, or do you think we will take the initiative and force a settlement on our terms? Strictly political question for now. I know military realities play into this but for now, politically speaking, what is your assessment?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby arshyam » 03 Jul 2020 20:36

mahadevbhu wrote:5. This is a strategic Own-goal by the CPC - or they don't care. War is inevitable. The sooner we start it the better it is. The more coordinated we are, the better it is. The question is, that can we have the US involved in it from the get-go? What sort of a plan-of-action do we need to have - what sort of military objective, in order to have them involved from the get-go?

No, and none. They won't get involved. Not sure why this wishful fantasy keeps cropping up again and again.

If the US gets involved, one or all of the following need to be true:
1. China shoots at them
2. China attacks Japan or Taiwan
3. There is a conflict that draws in multiple countries and all parties are tired out, including China, and it is easy to administer a final blow to the CPC, so to speak.

Till then, it suits the US perfectly to show strength, FONOPS, supply hardware to those who are fighting, etc. Why unnecessarily invite body bags in an election year? So, covert support short of getting involved. And that's the best case scenario.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Larry Walker » 03 Jul 2020 20:38

mahadevbhu wrote:3. I don't expect India to take back the land, but I do expect the IA to have a forward policy of creeping back land from China. .

Had Modi not visited Leh today - there was a chance - but with his visit he has sealed the fate of next action. Point to be noted is after his visit - all the friendly countries were briefed. Just my understanding.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby LakshmanPST » 03 Jul 2020 20:39

Three possible theories for today's visit and speech:-
1) Chinese refused to vacate and India is signalling that it is ready for war...
2) Chinese agreed to vacate, but are not implementing things on the ground and probably planning some misadventure... Visit is a warning to them and signalling that India will escalate if they try something...
3) Chinese agreed to vacate, but are trying to push a narrative of India's surrender... Visit is probably to pro-actively counter Chinese narrative...
-
Whatever may be the reasons, this is a very timely visit and a great speech...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Larry Walker » 03 Jul 2020 20:43

Modi also made a statement to the effect that era of expansionism is now over. What surprises me is that the current situation is just a border skirmish - does not exactly fall into realm of expansionism unless the intent is to signal that if war breaks out - India will try to restore its rightful borders.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby g.sarkar » 03 Jul 2020 20:46

darshhan wrote:
fanne wrote:yes

If this is indeed the case then either Xi jinping will have to order the chinese military to attack us(i.e if we do not attack them earlier) or xi jinping will have to resign soon.
Because even if somehow Xi manages to hide these figures from chinese public(very difficult these days), the opposing factions in Chinese Communist party will know about these figures and will be out for his bacon. No two ways about it.

Resignation is an option in a democracy. I do not think this applies for a CCP head. The Chinese soldiers killed do not matter one bit, except the loss of face. That can not be tolerated.
Gautam

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby williams » 03 Jul 2020 20:57

abhik wrote:An upbeat account from a retired IFS for a change.
'Xi will have to quit, CCP end is nigh' | Indian Diplomat on Modi Ladakh Visit | NewsX

This is exactly what 11 and his gang is fearing. They think creating a military conflict will unify the country and people will forget the mishandling of the Wuhan virus. I will tell you this, there is no way China contained this virus. They are fudging the numbers and oppressing their own people. It is going to backfire. 11 will have enough enemies in the Politburo who will be ready to pounce on him when there is a small indication of failure. We should be ready for a conflict and give them a very public bloody nose.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby SriKumar » 03 Jul 2020 20:58

Larry Walker wrote:Modi also made a statement to the effect that era of expansionism is now over. What surprises me is that the current situation is just a border skirmish - does not exactly fall into realm of expansionism unless the intent is to signal that if war breaks out - India will try to restore its rightful borders.

That was a major statement for Modi to make so close to a battlefield (IMHO). It is a purely political comment, a foreign policy statement really. That he told the soldiers plainly surprised me and in effect, he is telling them why they are there and the reason some of them have given up their lives. What China has done and is doing is expansionism, pure and simple. (Look at their maritime claims in South China Sea with Philippines and as far south as Indonesia. Look at the fact that they forced India to stop drilling operations 2 years ago in maritime Vietnam's economic zone). For India, look at what they have done with Arunachal and Ladakh. If they have not physically occupied land (which they have) they have made claims consistently.

This is expansionism, over a period of decades which has significantly quickened over the last decade due to improved technology. Please see the large picture of their actions, both geographically (from East China sea islands to Sri Lanka to Gwadar to Africa) and historically (since 1959 when they occupied Tibet) especially in the last decade with CPEC and OBOR- it is expansionism physically, politically and even economically (Hambantota, Maldives - where a price was extracted, and what they are trying in African countries now- ursury abd bribing to get political control of assets via economic means). It is multi-faceted expansionism.

It is the same political entity in charge- CPC. They are in charge today as well. And a pet peeve of mine - words like 'skirmish' and 'melee' used to describe what happened at Galwan underplays the seriousness of action there. Over a hundred were killed in fighting that lasted many hours, many more were injured. The casualty rate is pretty comparable to a battle with arms.
Last edited by SriKumar on 03 Jul 2020 21:05, edited 1 time in total.

Rakesh
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jul 2020 21:03

Prem Kumar wrote:
k prasad wrote:He provides an interesting perspective. An obviously american one.....

How do we know he is American?

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-m-smith-012a546

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Larry Walker » 03 Jul 2020 21:09

SriKumar wrote:That was a major statement for Modi to make so close to a battlefield (IMHO). It is a purely political comment, a foreign policy statement really. That he told the soldiers plainly surprised me and in effect, he is telling them why they are there and the reason some of them have given up their lives. What China has done and is doing is expansionism, pure and simple. (Look at their maritime claims in South China Sea with Philippines and as far south as Indonesia. Look at the fact that they forced India to stop drilling operations 2 years ago in maritime Vietnam's economic zone). For India, look at what they have done with Arunachal and Ladakh. If they have not physically occupied land (which they have) they have made claims consistently.

This is expansionism, over a period of decades which has significantly quickened over the last decade due to improved technology. Please see the large picture of their actions, both geographically (from East China sea islands to Sri Lanka to Gwadar to Africa) and historically (since 1959 when they occupied Tibet). It is the same political entity in charge- CPC. They are in charge today as well. And a pet peeve of mine - words like 'skirmish' and 'melee' used to describe what happened at Galwan underplays the seriousness of action there. Over a hundred were killed in fighting that lasted many hours, many more were injured. The casualty rate is pretty comparable to a battle with arms.

Still - it could have been more 'contextual' if he exhorted the soldiers on protecting sovereignty and integrity of borders or even maybe avenge their fallen comrade - but telling soldiers indirectly that they are fighting against expansionism is a huge signal of intent that if war breaks - what we are fighting against is expansionism - which means we fight to get back what is rightfully ours. Maybe I am getting a little too paranoid about his expansionism remark - but I somehow feel there is a clear signalling there.

It is like Modi is now clearly defining the root cause of the Chinese mess for the world community and his country to clearly understand as what they are fighting against.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby SriKumar » 03 Jul 2020 21:15

^^^I dont understand the point you are trying to make, but I do agree that bringing up expansionism specifically is a very telling act, especially when addressing soldiers. It stuck out to me anyway. He chooses his message carefully, knowing who the audience is and is apt to do that in this gambhir/serious situation. I think he meant it in the spirit it will be understood.
Last edited by SriKumar on 03 Jul 2020 21:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby darshhan » 03 Jul 2020 21:16

g.sarkar wrote:
darshhan wrote:If this is indeed the case then either Xi jinping will have to order the chinese military to attack us(i.e if we do not attack them earlier) or xi jinping will have to resign soon.
Because even if somehow Xi manages to hide these figures from chinese public(very difficult these days), the opposing factions in Chinese Communist party will know about these figures and will be out for his bacon. No two ways about it.

Resignation is an option in a democracy. I do not think this applies for a CCP head. The Chinese soldiers killed do not matter one bit, except the loss of face. That can not be tolerated.
Gautam

Forced out will be a better phrase instead of resignation. But yes this depends on how strong his opposing factions in cpc are.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby AshishA » 03 Jul 2020 21:25

I am just glad that the CDS has provided the synergy between the forces. The Air Force, The Army and even the Navy in Ladakh aren't having problems in coordination. We haven't seen this type of coordination ever. The Chinese have really chosen the wrong time to mess with us.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby mahadevbhu » 03 Jul 2020 21:28

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Manish_Sharma » 03 Jul 2020 21:29

skumar wrote: ....2. It is unlikely that the Chinese will target large Indian metros with conventional bombs and even if they do, the escalation path from there is very very short. Either the conflict will be localized to < X kms from LAC or it would be all over the place.


What if they target our Army formations, Aibases with their Short Range Ballistic Missiles? Do we have Prithvis in large numbers to counter-hit their Airbases and Army formations with? As cruise missiles have light warheads of 300 to 400 kilos while BM has at least 1 Ton warhead plus speed north of 20 Mach; a 1 Ton Warhead hitting at the speed of 20+ Mach in Mountains will damage many times more than 300 kilo warhead at subsonic speed.


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