Here is the map that shows PP14. I don't think we can find the full delineation in OSINT.k prasad wrote:Do we have a OSINT map of the indian LAC claim line? I know the Chinese refuse to release their own claim line except in windows-style annual updates.nachiket wrote: Their intrusion at PP-14 was some 400 odd meters into our side of the LAC. If they move back 2km, that means they will have to move back further into their own side.
Right now, I'm relying on Google Maps delineation of the LAC, and I have no clue how they came up with it, so I don't trust its veracity except in the general sense.
India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
I would hazard a guess that all the Chinese troops who have 'withdrawn', have instead gone into these tunnels where they'll wait out till our troops are withdrawn and then they'll pour out for an attack. It is also possible that the tunnels that we have seen on satellite photos ARE decoys.amar_p wrote:The photos posted earlier on this thread indicating tunnels etc. The Chinese know very clearly their supply chain weaknesses across the border. I would expect them to continue building huge interconnected subterranean spaces to store supplies, troops, tanks etc. Has been done before. And the Chinese definitely have the capability. They could create a mix of real tunnels and decoys to waste air strikes etc....May sound far fetched, but its anything but.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
Baba posted it again, Modi used the last phrase during Leh visit (also Rajputana Rifles motto)
न ही लक्ष्मी कुलक्रमज्जता, न ही भूषणों उल्लेखितोपि वा ।
खड्गेन आक्रम्य भुंजीतः, वीर भोग्या वसुंधरा ।।
न ही लक्ष्मी कुलक्रमज्जता, न ही भूषणों उल्लेखितोपि वा ।
खड्गेन आक्रम्य भुंजीतः, वीर भोग्या वसुंधरा ।।
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
Have a look at this Hudson Institute discussion on India-China belligerence. Moderated by Hak-qani (43 minutes). Nothing new.
https://youtu.be/CEUe7fae0I8
https://youtu.be/CEUe7fae0I8
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
Guptaji,nishant.gupta wrote:Sir no intention of commenting on number of tanks. I did say "theoretically" only based on size of opening and wiki uncle's inputs on size of various chunk tanks. More knowledgeable people can make more educated assessments.ks_sachin wrote: How many tanks can you fit in there and what is the strength of a Chinese tank battalion?
Please see rs_singh's post on this image. These are not tunnels etc but some kind of shelters....
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
Lovely.Mukesh.Kumar wrote:Slightly OT and longish post (Part II) Alert ON.Cain Marko wrote:
Is it that impossible for India to impose an nfz in Pok? They have just about 5 brigades in GB. Without air cover,
they'll be hard-pressed.
There are roads from kargil to skardu to gilgit. If we have air cover, can't they be plied by Indian units?
Not too different from say a tangail airdrop....
Ok, now that we have established the conditions under which an airborne assault on GB is likely to be the best way to take back the region short of going through the whole gamut of taking over all of POK, a much more humongous exercise, let’s see what we are up against.
Pak’s ORBAT (and here I will include paramilitary and local police also given their access to arms and potential of creating nuisance in the first few critical hours), comprises of Northern Areas Command of five independent brigades (~15000), Gilgit Baltistan Scouts ~3000, and Gilgit Baltistan Police ~5000. Say, an approximate total of 25,000 troops including auxiliaries and PAF assets at airfields.
A slug fight to defeat these troops is not in our best interest. Our assault needs to shock, decapitate command structures and bewilder the enemy into surrendering. Going out on a limb, I would hypothesize a missile barrage and IAF bombing to take out command centers, communications and eliminate at least 50% of the enemy (mostly the army). In such a context, hypothesizing further an airborne assault by 30,000 troops dropped into GB within a couple of hours (at least taking over airfields and road nodes) focusing on Skardu, Gilgit, Sost, Gajkuch, Danyor, Chilas, Astore. Later troops can spread out to take over rural areas (thankfully, with sparse population, it may be possible to focus on rural areas later). Crucial success factor will be intelligence and having locals friendly to Indian interests (particularly among tribals).
Ok, now that we have defined the magnitude of the problem, let’s look into one aspect to explore further. We calculated 30,000 troops to be airdropped, airlifted to GB. That using Boeing C17’s or C130J’s represent 300 or 500 sorties respectively. Now, I would envision the airborne corps something like the Russian 7th Guards Mountain Air Assault Division, operating in principle like Mechanized infantry who are transported by air (refer herefor why I envision this)
Once we add in equipment, the number of sorties easily doubles to 600 (this is an approximation but I used similar from the Center 2019 Russian exercise numbers to come up with ballpark numbers). So, if we are operating only C-17’s, and assuming that on the first day each aircraft puts in three sorties, you would still need 200 odd aircraft dedicated to this task. This is assuming 100% serviceability, no losses. Just the air transport component would cost USD 44 bn (USD 55 bn for C130J’s). And this is much more than current capability (for comparison we recently carried out ourbiggest airborne exercise for 500 SF personnel) . Where's the planning for this?
Throwing in all other costs, liberation of GB, this way would cost us at least USD 150 bn? I am sure this analysis, in some form or the other would have been presented/ gamed by military and political leadership. And till the time we come out with answers of how this can be done, where a USD 10 billion p.a. asset has to be acquired by spending USD 150 billion are answered, all our talk of freeing GB, much less Tibet, remains just that. Which political leadership or military leadership will plan this? Or commit money and time?
Slightly OT and longish post (Part II) Alert OFF.
Also might I add that we actually do not have 30,000 airborne troops.
The Para has been split into Para (SF) and Para and there are now only 4 vanilla Para bns which would be about 3600 troops. Yes we can add the para SF to the mix but in a scenario like you describe their utilisation to hold territory will be a sub-optimal use of that resource.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
Rs_singh Sir,Rs_singh wrote:An old NCO used to say, show me 5 ways you will advance and the enemy will show you a 6th. PLA thrives on deception and surprise. They have the initiative and have us reacting to them for the last two weeks.Philip wrote:Let me tell you about China's deception againsi India. Apart from his saying that " Tibet is the palm.After seizing the palm we must get the 5 fingers too." Meaning Aksai Chin,Nepal,Sikkim,Bhutan and NEFA now Ar.Pr.
Militarily right now only continuing to beef up forces and paras ,at least matching them man for man at the hotspots, presenting no easy spot on the LAC where they could ingress by surprise as they did at Galwan.
I also agree with you that this talk of withdrawal is nonsense. I’m waiting for them to open a new front so to speak, somewhere in the East, this time.
The reason we are reactive is because of our defensive posture/ doctrines or is there something lacking in our assessment of the enemy?
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
Wang Yi and Ajit Doval are respectively Special Representative for handling the boundary problem appointed by the respective governments. Another way of looking at it is that we are forcing the Chinese EAM to speak with our NSA and not our EAM..amar_p wrote:Chinese FM Wang Yi is holding talks with NSA Ajit Doval, bypassing EAM S Jaishankar who would be his normal counterpart.
A cheap tactic to create division within our establishment, but what he may not have realised is that the Indian side works as a team, and Doval is a way more harder nut to crack in a such negotiation than Jaishankar who is by no means a pushover.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
Sirjee maan gaya! Saw the post after having replied to you (this thread is moving very fast!).ks_sachin wrote:
Guptaji,
Please see rs_singh's post on this image. These are not tunnels etc but some kind of shelters....
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
We were patrolling all the way up to Finger 8. Some Army gent clarified this, in response to a message being spread that we were not patrolling between Fingers 4 - 8Raveen wrote: We have not sent patrols in 5 kms in, all the way to our claim line, not in the last decade we haven't. PP14 was the last patrol point we sent our patrols to.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
Pranams to all gurus here. Been a lurker since 2007. Just joined the legendary forum for all patriots.
I have grown up reading this forum and using it to guide myself on many issues. It is my guru.
Without it I might be just another WKK candle kisser.
Coming to the discussion here, I am really looking forward to engage with people here.
This business with the Chinese is far from over.
The basic natural state of the modern Chinese state is to be deceitful. Deception is thought to be the norm in state to state and military to military relations.
But I don't think the Chinese have started this fracas because of some deep, long term superhuman planning and signalling with every small statement and tweet about their intentions. I think the Chinese started this episode because of believing in their own delusions and propaganda.
They firmly expected India to rollover and play dead. They expected the Indians to come to them, kowtowing for mercy from their imperial might. And in return for that mercy, India must forever be their lapdog.
That this was their expectation and we were not playing to their script can be seen in the sheer, tooth grinding frustration and apoplectic rage.
Keywords in the initial statements of "restraining frontline troops",Their expectations that Indian govt should somehow manage the public opinion they are getting in India as part of the De escalation agreement lends credence to this.
As they say, never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity.
How probable is that the Chinaman started this based on sheer delusional expectations and prejudices with regards to India. ??
Because their panicked build up across the LAC is more like some one trying to comfort themselves regarding their own strength rather than attack formations. Like panicked hers animals, they are flocking together.
How can we exploit this to deliver a brutal takedown in return for the blood spilled on 15th of June.?
Because , as far as I am concerned, we haven't yet retaliated against that atrocity.
I have grown up reading this forum and using it to guide myself on many issues. It is my guru.
Without it I might be just another WKK candle kisser.
Coming to the discussion here, I am really looking forward to engage with people here.
This business with the Chinese is far from over.
The basic natural state of the modern Chinese state is to be deceitful. Deception is thought to be the norm in state to state and military to military relations.
But I don't think the Chinese have started this fracas because of some deep, long term superhuman planning and signalling with every small statement and tweet about their intentions. I think the Chinese started this episode because of believing in their own delusions and propaganda.
They firmly expected India to rollover and play dead. They expected the Indians to come to them, kowtowing for mercy from their imperial might. And in return for that mercy, India must forever be their lapdog.
That this was their expectation and we were not playing to their script can be seen in the sheer, tooth grinding frustration and apoplectic rage.
Keywords in the initial statements of "restraining frontline troops",Their expectations that Indian govt should somehow manage the public opinion they are getting in India as part of the De escalation agreement lends credence to this.
As they say, never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity.
How probable is that the Chinaman started this based on sheer delusional expectations and prejudices with regards to India. ??
Because their panicked build up across the LAC is more like some one trying to comfort themselves regarding their own strength rather than attack formations. Like panicked hers animals, they are flocking together.
How can we exploit this to deliver a brutal takedown in return for the blood spilled on 15th of June.?
Because , as far as I am concerned, we haven't yet retaliated against that atrocity.
Last edited by AdityaVM on 07 Jul 2020 14:18, edited 1 time in total.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
Sachin,good point about costs.If a fraction of the " liberation" costs estimated were used in beefing up the forces,it would make a huge difference in restraining the enemy from mischief. At least $ 50+ billion spent now,just 10% of our forex reserves of which at least 60% would be spent on indigenous content, is affordable.6 sqds. of MIG29/35s for example would cost only $5+ B. A similar number of LCAs the same too and another $ 5+ B for force multipliers like AWACS/ AEW aircraft,ISR,tankers,transports,etc. The IA could get $15 B for extra attack ( LCHs) and utility,heavy lift helos, more LW 155mm arty,plus extra indigenous arty. gor other theatres. More MBTs,AVs ,better AK rifles,etc. The IN the extra subs, minesweepers,missile corvettes,amphibs, $15 B for each service and $5 B for the strategic forces/ air defence.Structured in a 3 yr. acquisition plan, this would amount to an extra $10-$15 B a year apart from the exg. defence funding. That is a very affordable figure when you look at the massive freebies thrown out for populist schemes.
The US has spent trillions in Afg.,Iraq,Syria,etc. and could not defeat the Taliban,ISIS,and Al Q entities.Putin's strategy in Syria worked much better.Ru air,naval and spl. forces assets along with Syrian govt. forces and Iranian RG assets on the ground.The combination worked but certainly would've cost the Russians a tidy sum too. Russia's vast storehouse of Sov. era weaponry and munitions came in very handy,as the Sovs. had prepared for a huge European war and conquest of Europe. The US unfortunately
kept developing new dxpfnsive weapons and munitions to fight messy urban battles dhich at times resembled those of WW2 famous seiges where fighters and population all hid underground.
Simple IEDs and RPGs have accounted for a large % of the casualties.
We should plan for a pro-active strategy against a weaker Pak, have overwhelming numbers and quality of weaponry against them as we did in the '70s and '80s, and against China forces sufficient to ward them off from Doklam,Galwan like intrusions,with swift and lethal counter- attsck capability causing max. casualties and destruction to their troops and mil. eqpt., positions respectively. If they have hesitated today at Galwan it is because they suffered at least double thd casualties we suffered!
Both Pak and China cannot stomach large loss of life.Indians and Indian soldiers EXPECT the strong possibility of martyrdom ,whatever destiny decides, which is why we are so ferocious in battle and our citizens bear the heavy lossbof a loved one with honour and pride.
The US has spent trillions in Afg.,Iraq,Syria,etc. and could not defeat the Taliban,ISIS,and Al Q entities.Putin's strategy in Syria worked much better.Ru air,naval and spl. forces assets along with Syrian govt. forces and Iranian RG assets on the ground.The combination worked but certainly would've cost the Russians a tidy sum too. Russia's vast storehouse of Sov. era weaponry and munitions came in very handy,as the Sovs. had prepared for a huge European war and conquest of Europe. The US unfortunately
kept developing new dxpfnsive weapons and munitions to fight messy urban battles dhich at times resembled those of WW2 famous seiges where fighters and population all hid underground.
Simple IEDs and RPGs have accounted for a large % of the casualties.
We should plan for a pro-active strategy against a weaker Pak, have overwhelming numbers and quality of weaponry against them as we did in the '70s and '80s, and against China forces sufficient to ward them off from Doklam,Galwan like intrusions,with swift and lethal counter- attsck capability causing max. casualties and destruction to their troops and mil. eqpt., positions respectively. If they have hesitated today at Galwan it is because they suffered at least double thd casualties we suffered!
Both Pak and China cannot stomach large loss of life.Indians and Indian soldiers EXPECT the strong possibility of martyrdom ,whatever destiny decides, which is why we are so ferocious in battle and our citizens bear the heavy lossbof a loved one with honour and pride.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
"We were" begs the questions.Prem Kumar wrote:We were patrolling all the way up to Finger 8. Some Army gent clarified this, in response to a message being spread that we were not patrolling between Fingers 4 - 8Raveen wrote: We have not sent patrols in 5 kms in, all the way to our claim line, not in the last decade we haven't. PP14 was the last patrol point we sent our patrols to.
- Have we stopped now? If no, well good.
If yes, then because adversary has occupied this space, we have mutually agreed not to patrol this space, we have unilaterally decided not to?
Thanks.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fObTepqQ0sk
(LIVE at 1800Hrs IST) Ladakh Disengagement: The Politico-Military Dimensions
(LIVE at 1800Hrs IST) Ladakh Disengagement: The Politico-Military Dimensions
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
Google has a simple policy. In each country, they will use the maps provided by the local govt if available. Otherwise, they use the data provided by US govt or other open source info.nachiket wrote:I posted a few ss from Google maps earlier in this thread. Google seems to be showing the Chinese claim line as the LAC at least in some parts. Especially problematic in Depsang area. Even at Pangong Tso they show the LAC passing through Finger 4 or close to it.k prasad wrote: Right now, I'm relying on Google Maps delineation of the LAC, and I have no clue how they came up with it, so I don't trust its veracity except in the general sense.
Indian govt shares only the official map of India that includes Aksai Chin, resulting Google to rely on other sources to show LAC.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
^^
Makes sense.
https://twitter.com/sidhant/status/1280339511294128130
In another bit, Taiwan seems to have extended an open-ended invitation to Dalai Lama to go visit.
Makes sense.
https://twitter.com/sidhant/status/1280339511294128130
India/US consultations immediately following the China/India Boder SR talks sound like co-ordination on China. Seems like the messaging is deliberate.Sidhant Sibal @sidhant
India US foriegn office consultations today
In another bit, Taiwan seems to have extended an open-ended invitation to Dalai Lama to go visit.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
https://twitter.com/HindiNews18/status/ ... 9776096258
We can assume that China receives feed from all Radars in Bakistan but especially the ones is PoK & PoGB.@HindiNews18
सूत्रों से ऐसी खबर आ रही है कि पाकिस्तान ने चीन की मदद से पीओके में रडार लगाए है.
@pawanibn7
Translated from Hindi by
Such news is coming from sources that Pakistan has installed radar in PoK with the help of China.
@pawanibn7
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
as per news report 20 radars and High frequency communication towers have been installed in POK by China. Since LOC is not so sacrosant we should use Pinaka, 155mm to hit these engineers, let the Chinese admit thier engineers were in POK.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
BTW , is there any way BRO can keep the Kisthwar to Keylong route open for miltary Vehicles open in winter, I know it is tough route, but unless the Rohtang tunnel is open, this road will also be very key road for us. But the road is cliffhanger with no safety guard rails.
Here is an interesting youtube video from Rohtang in winter
This could explain why reacted with a bit of delay of delay to Chinese troop deployments, it is clear they also must have taken a lot effort from last year to stock up for thier moves in Ladakh. Zoji la and Rotang were open only on 18 April 20 and 25 April 20. Any move by us in sending men like in 1962 without back up and equipment would have been sucidal.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tra ... 471505.cms
Here is an interesting youtube video from Rohtang in winter
This could explain why reacted with a bit of delay of delay to Chinese troop deployments, it is clear they also must have taken a lot effort from last year to stock up for thier moves in Ladakh. Zoji la and Rotang were open only on 18 April 20 and 25 April 20. Any move by us in sending men like in 1962 without back up and equipment would have been sucidal.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tra ... 471505.cms
Last edited by Aditya_V on 07 Jul 2020 17:09, edited 1 time in total.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
Rohtang tunnel is nearing completion, IIRC, it is to be inaugurated by Modi later this year around August/September.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
Welcome to the forum AdityaVM.AdityaVM wrote:<snip>
The Chinese will give us the opportunity to go kinetic, we use the time in the meantime to stock-up & sharpen our knives.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
God speed we need it this winter, if we are getting supplies into Ladakh this winter it will put a spanner in the works of the Chinese and Pakis- who will then have airlift supplies in winter. Perhaps the Chinese thought it was their last chance to take a well planned action April 20 since we were busy with Covid, but we must have airlifted assets etc. which probably dissuaded them a bit.
This is clearly not over lets see how it pans out.
This is clearly not over lets see how it pans out.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
Exactly. The japs and Koreans, especially in our auto industry, also have their supply chain in Cheen. The issue is Cheen is both geographically and culturally closer for them.Pratyush wrote:nam wrote:
The economic steps should be targeted at Chinese companies, not necessarily Chinese produced goods. If a Taiwanese company get's it's goods from China, our money will go in to paying taxes to the Taiwanese government and only a part of it will go to China.
SNIP the rest
.
If a Taiwanese company can produce in the land occupied by communist bandits. It can produce in India.
It now has to be insisted that no completely built in PRC stuff is to be imported in India. I understand that a total de-linking cannot happen immediately. But it has be done in the next 12 months.
You will, though, need to tighten the screws perhaps over years to make them change their mind -- you cannot build up a new supply chain in 12 months time.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
If China is to be believed then they have the claim on everything ever existed in this world except chinese wuhan virus which is actually theirs.
Why are India's neighbors stronger than India
There's no India in China.
There's no India in Pakistan.
No India in Nepal.
Contrarily, thanks to democracy:
there's a big China in India.
a big Pakistan in India.
Even a biggish Nepal in India.
Why are India's neighbors stronger than India
There's no India in China.
There's no India in Pakistan.
No India in Nepal.
Contrarily, thanks to democracy:
there's a big China in India.
a big Pakistan in India.
Even a biggish Nepal in India.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... c9xFO.html
Phone call at 8.45 am, then a video call: The backstory of the PLA’s pullback
OTOH, PLA, once in saddle for the whole of F4-8 area will be loathe to back off. It is capturing in the field and surrendering on the table from their pov. Also will allow Xi's opponents an issue to hit him with. Will be interesting to watch. My bet is they will not vacate without a push from IA. Hoping I am wrong!
Phone call at 8.45 am, then a video call: The backstory of the PLA’s pullback
Moving back to their peacetime deployment AND Indian Army patrol's access to to their former routes in full is return of the status quo. Anything less is partial. At least that much it is clear a day to the Indian leadership.Doval told Wang that Beijing would need to restore the patrolling rights of the Indian army on these four points to ensure peace and tranquillity along the 1,597km Line of Actual Control (LAC).
OTOH, PLA, once in saddle for the whole of F4-8 area will be loathe to back off. It is capturing in the field and surrendering on the table from their pov. Also will allow Xi's opponents an issue to hit him with. Will be interesting to watch. My bet is they will not vacate without a push from IA. Hoping I am wrong!
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
Their supply lines are very much longer but then we do not know for how long they may have been surreptitiously stocking supplies in their forward areasAditya_V wrote:God speed we need it this winter, if we are getting supplies into Ladakh this winter it will put a spanner in the works of the Chinese and Pakis- who will then have airlift supplies in winter. Perhaps the Chinese thought it was their last chance to take a well planned action April 20 since we were busy with Covid, but we must have airlifted assets etc. which probably dissuaded them a bit.
This is clearly not over lets see how it pans out.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
We had the perfect opportunity at Doklam. It was not just an opportunity but a necessity after the deaths at Galwan.Sanju wrote:Welcome to the forum AdityaVM.AdityaVM wrote:<snip>
The Chinese will give us the opportunity to go kinetic, we use the time in the meantime to stock-up & sharpen our knives.
But we did not go kinetic. I've little hope that it would ever. Not in my lifetime anyways.
Every year that goes by, the defensive forces grow and we are locked in place. The best time would have been at Doklam when they had just the three brigades in TAR.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
My post was part of a conversation around the Galwan situation, someone has quoted it out of contextRishi_Tri wrote:"We were" begs the questions.Prem Kumar wrote:
We were patrolling all the way up to Finger 8. Some Army gent clarified this, in response to a message being spread that we were not patrolling between Fingers 4 - 8
- Have we stopped now? If no, well good.
If yes, then because adversary has occupied this space, we have mutually agreed not to patrol this space, we have unilaterally decided not to?
Thanks.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
Actually, through faith, and through the queen in SoKo's case, we are culturally closer to them, we just never built upon that.chola wrote:Exactly. The japs and Koreans, especially in our auto industry, also have their supply chain in Cheen. The issue is Cheen is both geographically and culturally closer for them.Pratyush wrote:
If a Taiwanese company can produce in the land occupied by communist bandits. It can produce in India.
It now has to be insisted that no completely built in PRC stuff is to be imported in India. I understand that a total de-linking cannot happen immediately. But it has be done in the next 12 months.
You will, though, need to tighten the screws perhaps over years to make them change their mind -- you cannot build up a new supply chain in 12 months time.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
But Food and some items are perishable, and supplies get consumed, moved large number of Vehicle sin galwan valley etc. all consume supplies. If we can move in supplies in trucks we must assess clearly when it is in our advantage and start nimbling and putting stress on them. Some of those 2 years duties will increase in the hostile frontier, keeping putting pressure and something will unravel for the Chinese.chetak wrote:Their supply lines are very much longer but then we do not know for how long they may have been surreptitiously stocking supplies in their forward areasAditya_V wrote:God speed we need it this winter, if we are getting supplies into Ladakh this winter it will put a spanner in the works of the Chinese and Pakis- who will then have airlift supplies in winter. Perhaps the Chinese thought it was their last chance to take a well planned action April 20 since we were busy with Covid, but we must have airlifted assets etc. which probably dissuaded them a bit.
This is clearly not over lets see how it pans out.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
Long term, India needs to accelerate the internal unraveling of Pakistan so that it stops being a threat. One misses the good old days when their TTP would raid PAF base and take out a few airplanes or take out an ISI HQ. The Balochi freedom fighters, while brave, haven't been able to mount spectacular attacks that TTP did to fight for Pashtun freedom from Pakistan.
If only their TTP can take out half of the PAF awacs, it would be more than enough.
If only their TTP can take out half of the PAF awacs, it would be more than enough.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
no need to drive up in order to supply the troops.Aditya_V wrote:But Food and some items are perishable, and supplies get consumed, moved large number of Vehicle sin galwan valley etc. all consume supplies. If we can move in supplies in trucks we must assess clearly when it is in our advantage and start nimbling and putting stress on them. Some of those 2 years duties will increase in the hostile frontier, keeping putting pressure and something will unravel for the Chinese.chetak wrote:
Their supply lines are very much longer but then we do not know for how long they may have been surreptitiously stocking supplies in their forward areas
food supplies can always be airdropped or helo lifted and in this case, there will be practically little or no loss because it will not be lost in crevasses or drift to the Indian side
fuel may have to be resupplied periodically by road and they will already have ammo to brace for the initial contact.
we need good satellite coverage over the entire border and also long endurance drones to monitor movements.
The PLA's unexpected feint towards galwan and other areas happened during a planned exercise so it was a predetermined and conscious move.
Maybe we were not as watchful/careful as we could/should have been.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
Just want to highlight. There were multiple predictions that post Modi's speech. War will happen in 24 hours and 72 hours etc.
Yet the opposite happened. It would be interesting to know what concessions we have given china to achieve this....
Yet the opposite happened. It would be interesting to know what concessions we have given china to achieve this....
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
Why do we assume that we have given any concessions?
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
May be because there's trust in the leadership but not the advisors and babus. Else, as has been highlighted in other threads that there were many economical actions that were supposed to have been taken long ago but were not taken till now. Chinese had already waged economic warfare years in advance of this.Yagnasri wrote:Why do we assume that we have given any concessions?
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
There is no LAC.
China has a LIC (Line of Imagined Control) which probably includes Bangalore, Kerala because we love our "chinese chilly chicken"
India has a LWC (Line of wishful control) which is where the Chinese withdrew in 1962.
Somewhere in between lies the BBP (Band of Both Patrol) which is the space between the last point of patrols of the two countries.
Can we just tell during the next chai-biskoot session to the chinese off the record that "we will watch the satellite pictures, and if we see a man made structure in the BBP, we will just take it out by an appropriate weapon and deal with whatever happens next" and walk away scratching the butt?
China has a LIC (Line of Imagined Control) which probably includes Bangalore, Kerala because we love our "chinese chilly chicken"
India has a LWC (Line of wishful control) which is where the Chinese withdrew in 1962.
Somewhere in between lies the BBP (Band of Both Patrol) which is the space between the last point of patrols of the two countries.
Can we just tell during the next chai-biskoot session to the chinese off the record that "we will watch the satellite pictures, and if we see a man made structure in the BBP, we will just take it out by an appropriate weapon and deal with whatever happens next" and walk away scratching the butt?
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
Conditioning by education, media, etc.Yagnasri wrote:Why do we assume that we have given any concessions?
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
That is precisely the attitude we need to have Dileep sir.Dileep wrote:There is no LAC.
China has a LIC (Line of Imagined Control) which probably includes Bangalore, Kerala because we love our "chinese chilly chicken"
India has a LWC (Line of wishful control) which is where the Chinese withdrew in 1962.
Somewhere in between lies the BBP (Band of Both Patrol) which is the space between the last point of patrols of the two countries.
Can we just tell during the next chai-biskoot session to the chinese off the record that "we will watch the satellite pictures, and if we see a man made structure in the BBP, we will just take it out by an appropriate weapon and deal with whatever happens next" and walk away scratching the butt?
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
This is the best post I read in this thread... Simply perfect...Dileep wrote:There is no LAC.
China has a LIC (Line of Imagined Control) which probably includes Bangalore, Kerala because we love our "chinese chilly chicken"
India has a LWC (Line of wishful control) which is where the Chinese withdrew in 1962.
Somewhere in between lies the BBP (Band of Both Patrol) which is the space between the last point of patrols of the two countries.
Can we just tell during the next chai-biskoot session to the chinese off the record that "we will watch the satellite pictures, and if we see a man made structure in the BBP, we will just take it out by an appropriate weapon and deal with whatever happens next" and walk away scratching the butt?
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020
Our Army retaliated that very night and took out many lizards...AdityaVM wrote: How can we exploit this to deliver a brutal takedown in return for the blood spilled on 15th of June.?
Because , as far as I am concerned, we haven't yet retaliated against that atrocity.
Saying that we haven't retaliated is problematic for two reasons...
1) It is IMHO disrespect to the soldiers who fought that night...
2) It is giving credence to Chinese narrative that they simply killed our soldiers and we did nothing...
Besides, if this way of thinking crosses limits, which Congis are trying to do, it will create unnecessary pressure on Govt. to escalate things when the govt.'s primary objective now is deescalation...