India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ramana » 22 Jul 2020 11:29

Never have overconfidence.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby k prasad » 22 Jul 2020 12:37

Manish_Sharma wrote:TWITTER

@ak5985965

We have 11/12 Divs dedicated against China and and 24 against Pak. Entire Pak Army is 22/23 Divs. Bulk of those concentrated in Punjab. Look at Indus and 5 Punjab rivers on map and you will understand our options. 2 front war can be handled. IAF can also manage. IN has big edge https://t.co/QLIaKu50C4


https://twitter.com/Ak5985965/status/12 ... 80768?s=19


Another major force availability that we shouldn't forget are our paramilitary, which is close to twice the size of the PLA, and importantly, are battle hardened from COIN operations, and know the lay of the land (Esp ITBP)

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby chetak » 22 Jul 2020 13:17

ramana wrote:Never have overconfidence.


saar,

very few seem to realize that for over many decades now, India is actually fighting a two front war, in particular both with the hans and the pakis.

we should expect, fully understand and counter as well, the huge disinformation backlash by chinese and paki media assets in India, the lootyens conmedia and sold out thinktankis.

urban naxals, jehadis, commies and congi cockroaches are materially and ideologically supported by, among many other interfering and malevolent off shore BIF busybodies, the ISI and the han equivalent of the ISI.

the "leadership" to plan, fund, deploy and sustain the opposition on such a large scale the anti CAA, shaheenbagh "protests" and the widespread violence in many other parts of the country is most certainly not indigenous in conception or organic in its genesis

they have used local low grade and expendable assets to manipulate and complete the last mile execution of these riots.

some of these shadowy puppet masters have emerged from the murky depths during the NIA investigations into the KER-gelf gold smuggling industry and the state patronage provided by the commies and jehadis.

How many army divisions do you think these gaddar chinese and paki assets in India are worth and the laughably meagre costs that accrue to these inimical countries in sustaining these useful idiots.

Both in cheen and pak, such gaddar "assets" would have been butchered in cold blood the very first time they raised their ugly heads but due to our "democracy", constitution and the Hindu's cultural penchant and preference for nonconfrontation, except as the last resort, these assets flourish and flower supported by a treacherous and malignantly pliant media.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby manjgu » 22 Jul 2020 13:47

1) wise countries usually avoid a 2 front war... ( but ofc plan for it..prepare for it). 2) arnt the makers of oppo, xiomi etc chinese companies??

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby SSridhar » 22 Jul 2020 13:55

China repeats claim on Bhutan’s east
China said that it has offered Bhutan a “package solution” to its boundary dispute, reviving a reference to its 1996 proposal for a territory swap to give Bhutan the disputed areas in its north in exchange for the disputed western areas, including Doklam. The Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA) also repeated its claim on Bhutan’s eastern boundary at Sakteng, which experts warn, maybe a new pressure tactic by Beijing to push Thimphu into concluding a boundary deal.

“The boundary between China and Bhutan is yet to be demarcated, and the middle, eastern and western sections of the border are disputed. China has proposed a package solution to these disputes,” said Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs spokesperson Wang Wenbin on Tuesday, when asked about the Sakteng claim. During a meeting of the UNDP-led Global Environment Facility on June 2-3 this year, the Chinese representative had tried, unsuccessfully, to stop the funding for Bhutan’s Sakteng forest sanctuary, claiming the area was disputed. Bhutan, through the Indian delegate who represented them, had rejected the claim, and was granted the funding.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 22 Jul 2020 14:17

The way to fight a 2 front war is to nullify the one front before getting in to a 2 front war.

And that front is Pak. We should have economically degraded Pak long time back. But we allowed it to survive, allowing them have enough force level to assist the Chinis in a 2 front war.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby yensoy » 22 Jul 2020 15:04

SSridhar wrote:China repeats claim on Bhutan’s east
China said that it has offered Bhutan a “package solution” to its boundary dispute, reviving a reference to its 1996 proposal for a territory swap to give Bhutan the disputed areas in its north in exchange for the disputed western areas, including Doklam. The Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA) also repeated its claim on Bhutan’s eastern boundary at Sakteng, which experts warn, maybe a new pressure tactic by Beijing to push Thimphu into concluding a boundary deal.

“The boundary between China and Bhutan is yet to be demarcated, and the middle, eastern and western sections of the border are disputed. China has proposed a package solution to these disputes,” said Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs spokesperson Wang Wenbin on Tuesday, when asked about the Sakteng claim. During a meeting of the UNDP-led Global Environment Facility on June 2-3 this year, the Chinese representative had tried, unsuccessfully, to stop the funding for Bhutan’s Sakteng forest sanctuary, claiming the area was disputed. Bhutan, through the Indian delegate who represented them, had rejected the claim, and was granted the funding.

The Chinese claim is very mischievous. They don't even share a land boundary with the area claimed by them. The access is via the Tawang tract which is well in Indian control.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby jagga » 22 Jul 2020 15:26

Philip wrote:Gen.Malik's prophetic words are a striking reminder that India's foreign policy is useless unless the military are involved in formulating strategies and tactics to preserve our interests. Buffoonery babudom MEA style must be swept out of South Block.We are at war. If we do not act now on an hourly basis to counter and defeat the PRC challenge ,it will end up in an unmitigated catastrophe.We have yet to prove as the good general and former chief wrote, that we are not a "soft state" where a lack of strategic thinking and incompetence prevails.

Philip Sir, Is that not already started to happen? If I am correct the China Study Group consists of not only Home/Defense/MEA secretaries, but also Vice-Chiefs of the three services. Although, I am not sure if this government has expanded the CSG to include Vice-Chiefs recently or it was always like that.
China Study Group, the elite Indian govt body that guides policy on ties with Beijing

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Philip » 22 Jul 2020 15:33

I think this is a new very welcome development as earlier the China policy was almost totally in the hands of the babus. In retrospect this devilry by XI has woken up the nation to the current and future plan the PRC has for us,total domination ,servility towards it or destruction. We now have a v.difficult job to do.The long term plan as to challenging the PRC in every sphere,forum globally, for India to survive in the future as an independent sovereign state. Apart from the military build-up,we must not lose sight of the boycott of the PRC economically and strong dpl. moves to be taken,playing the two "T" cards, Tibet and Taiwan.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby k prasad » 22 Jul 2020 15:52

Just FYI, https://mapcarta.com/W819431890 has good markings of the Y-junction and Raki Nallah areas around PP-10 to PP-12.

Not sure if it wasn't shared before.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 22 Jul 2020 16:28

^^
While the general area of Raki Nalla is about right, the PP-12 is incorrect if one co-relates all accounts of the patrol route.

A map drawn by some on twitter based on the various accounts was shared earlier on the thread gives a better idea about the patrol route.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Cain Marko » 22 Jul 2020 18:59

Philip wrote:Titbit in the TOI.IN P-8Is and MIG-29Ks also being deployed against China. P-8s known for some time,but the 29Ks,excellent news.We have 40 odd 29Ks,enough to equip both the VikA and the Vikrant still awaiting completion,will have to do a year of trials and then be commissioned.Expected yr. of commissioning around early 2022. Until then these birds will be of immense help in combating the PLAAF. The VikA is reportedly somewhere in the ANC region,just exercised with the USS Nimitz,and will have its full complement of aircraft aboard,around 20+. That will leave the second sqd. meant for the Vikrant available for Himalayan duties. Great to see the IN ready for battle on both fronts.

Meanwhile in Ru,its only CV the Kuz in in the focks being repaired and refitted with new weaponry , sensors,etc. expected to take another 2 years.The capsizing of Ru's largest floating dock capable of handling the Kuz not too long ago was a major setback. Therefore,their 29Ks will possibly be available should we want a few more.An extra batch of new upgraded 29Ks could be ordered while we lease the exg. CV aircraft from the Kuz.


I'm not entirely getting what the p8s are doing in the eastern sector. Can mpaas be used for ISR duties effective overland?

The 29k idea sounds very interesting...

Added later: I guess this answers my question above:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/swarajyamag.com/amp/story/defence%252Fexplained-why-a-p-8i-aircraft-of-the-indian-navy-was-seen-flying-towards-ladakh-amid-india-china-standoff
Last edited by Cain Marko on 22 Jul 2020 19:03, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby rsangram » 22 Jul 2020 19:00

China not disengaging - today's news in Times of India


https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 108290.cms

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby LakshmanPST » 22 Jul 2020 19:09

k prasad wrote:Just FYI, https://mapcarta.com/W819431890 has good markings of the Y-junction and Raki Nallah areas around PP-10 to PP-12.

Not sure if it wasn't shared before.


These are not the actual Patrol points PP10 to PP12... They are actually further East almost near the Chinese road on the East...
Infact, the location of 'Bottleneck' itself is wrong... Bottleneck/Y-Junction is East of Google Earth LAC (The LAC marked in this map is same as Google Earth LAC)...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Raveen » 22 Jul 2020 20:22

Philip wrote:Therefore,their 29Ks will possibly be available should we want a few more.An extra batch of new upgraded 29Ks could be ordered while we lease the exg. CV aircraft from the Kuz.



Sorry, this is funny :rotfl:
Last edited by hnair on 22 Jul 2020 20:26, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Warning issued

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby hnair » 22 Jul 2020 20:28

Raveen, I see that Ramana already issued a warning for baiting and ad-hominem attacks. Please co-operate and do a factual rebuttal of Philip instead of school-yard level put-downs

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby manjgu » 22 Jul 2020 21:28

can someone provide a link to situation in depsang..maps..indian / chini positions ..ingress??

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby LakshmanPST » 22 Jul 2020 22:14

manjgu wrote:can someone provide a link to situation in depsang..maps..indian / chini positions ..ingress??


No OSINT or Satellite image specialists released any maps for that area till date...
However, I have identified Chinese roads in that area based on Google Earth--->
Chinese Roads in Cyan... Indian Shyok-DBO Road in Green...
Red Line is Google Earth LAC...
PP Points marked are approximate and based on newspaper articles...

Image

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby rsangram » 22 Jul 2020 22:20

LakshmanPST wrote:
manjgu wrote:can someone provide a link to situation in depsang..maps..indian / chini positions ..ingress??


No OSINT or Satellite image specialists released any maps for that area till date...
However, I have identified Chinese roads in that area based on Google Earth--->
Chinese Roads in Cyan... Indian Shyok-DBO Road in Green...
Red Line is Google Earth LAC...
PP Points marked are approximate and based on newspaper articles...



Thanks a lot Lakshman.

Your map shows Chinese presence well on their side of LAC.

Why is there this general belief then, including statements from even non-Shukla and sane Ex-Army officers, that Chinese have INGRESSED at Depsang and changed status quo there and are not moving out.

Using your map, can you please explain how the Chinese have changed the status quo since April in this sector - where they were prior to April and where they are now, and the impacts and implications.

Thanks.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 22 Jul 2020 22:33

Overall Chinese buildup along the LAC and Aksai Chin.

https://twitter.com/detresfa_/status/12 ... 1498342400
d-atis @detresfa_

@SimTack & I have been mapping & analyzing the entire extent of #China's military presence in #Ladakh over the past months, here's a complete view of the vast military & infrastructural push undertaken by #Beijing part of the #IndiaChinaFaceOff
https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/ ... ian-border
Image

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pandyan » 23 Jul 2020 00:21


A Winter's Day in Changthang | Living with the Changpas of Ladakh - 2/6

Admins - hope it is okay to post occasional travel videos here. It gives a sense of the terrain and challenges.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby LakshmanPST » 23 Jul 2020 00:22

rsangram wrote:Thanks a lot Lakshman.

Your map shows Chinese presence well on their side of LAC.

Why is there this general belief then, including statements from even non-Shukla and sane Ex-Army officers, that Chinese have INGRESSED at Depsang and changed status quo there and are not moving out.

Using your map, can you please explain how the Chinese have changed the status quo since April in this sector - where they were prior to April and where they are now, and the impacts and implications.

Thanks.


The 'ingress' in Depsang is mainly at Bottleneck area at PP10-PP13, not in actual plains near PP8 and PP9 in North...

The problem at Bottleneck area is somewhat like Finger Area of Pangong Tso...
The Google Earth LAC is more or less the line that indicates actual ground control of India and China... That red line is NOT the Indian claim of LAC...
Indian claim of LAC is on East of PP10-PP13 which almost coincides with the Chinese road running from PP11-PP13...
From what I have seen on Google Earth, the only way to access PP10-PP13 is through Bottleneck/Y-junction... From Y-junction, troops used to walk along Raki Nala and other small rivulets and nalas to reach the PPs and come back on a multiple day trek... Total length of walk is more than 100km...

Chinese effectively captured this area in 2013 after the stand-off... This is the 640 sq km area which is often talked about... However, I guess they re-allowed Indian patrols after the standoff is over...

Chinese have easier access to Y-junction and from Pankaj's map provided above, there seems to be a new Chinese Road to Bottleneck which is not there on Google Earth (Most Google Earth images of the area are 10-15 years old)...
-
Now what happened is Chinese blocked access to India at Bottleneck due to which the entire area from PP10-PP13 is now inaccessible to us... This is the change in status quo...

There might have been thousands of Chinese troops in the entire Depsang Area (which includes Bottleneck and PP10-13), but most of them are on their side of LAC and probably in plain areas above...
At Bottleneck, it is really difficult to post 1000s of troops... Only few troops can be maintained there...
----
To summarize about Depsang area--->
Did Chinese ingress in areas which India considers as our side of LAC...? Yes
Did Chinese occupy any new areas in Depsang area, which are effectively not in their control until now...? No
Did Chinese deploy thousands of troops in Desang area...? Probably yes
Did Chinese deploy troops on Indian side of Indian-claim-LAC...? Yes, but probably couple of hundreds
Did Chinese deploy thousands of troops on Indian side of Indian-claim-LAC...? No, practically not possible

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 23 Jul 2020 02:09

https://indianexpress.com/article/india ... r-6517375/
China common worry, India and US step up military, intel ties
The cooperation includes sharing of high-end satellite images, telephone intercepts, and data sharing of Chinese troops and weapons deployment along the entire stretch of the Line of Actual Control. New Delhi, sources said, is watching Chinese movements in “all sectors” of the LAC.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nachiket » 23 Jul 2020 08:53

k prasad wrote:
Manish_Sharma wrote:TWITTER

@ak5985965



https://twitter.com/Ak5985965/status/12 ... 80768?s=19


Another major force availability that we shouldn't forget are our paramilitary, which is close to twice the size of the PLA, and importantly, are battle hardened from COIN operations, and know the lay of the land (Esp ITBP)

Paramilitary forces are trained and equipped for internal/border security duties and in some cases COIN operations. I'm not sure how they would be useful in a conventional war. They have no heavy weapons, no APC's/IFV's, very few helicopters. ITBP does a decent job of manning the Chinese border and the BSF does the same on the western IB. At the most they can take over some of the COIN duties in J&K while the army moves its own forces to the frontlines. We have to bear in mind that even in COIN their usefulness is limited considering that the current COIN grid in J&K is led by RR, Paras and regular IA infantry. We haven't reached a stage where BSF or CRPF can take over those duties in peacetime and relieve the load on the IA.

Note: I am counting RR as part of IA not paramilitary.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby rsingh » 23 Jul 2020 09:34

Gyan wrote:If we send 100 soldiers at each disputed point & redo Galwan Night, will it lead to all out war? Is it essential to use Tanks to show our resolve? And if China fires first then to what extent it will escalate the situation? Not imposing costs will be a terrible terrible option. National Security is based on perception & once we lose this perception, all the wolves will jump in for dinner.


Chinese tried their best to provoke us to respond. Articles in GLOBAL WHINE, those funny looking Chinese FM spokesmen, proxies like Nepal. But GOI was cool as cucumber. GOI knew how to puncture this Chinese balloon. China lost trust. No self respecting countries will do any big deal with Chinese companies. The moment they fire first bullet and start any war, their overseas assets will fall like house of cards. Shouting war horns in one thing and fighting a war is completely different. Slam from Pindi.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Mort Walker » 23 Jul 2020 10:04

pandyan wrote:
A Winter's Day in Changthang | Living with the Changpas of Ladakh - 2/6

Admins - hope it is okay to post occasional travel videos here. It gives a sense of the terrain and challenges.


Thanks so much! It was a great video and heartwarming to watch. Such a hardy people, but so kind.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Deans » 23 Jul 2020 10:27

nachiket wrote:
k prasad wrote:
Another major force availability that we shouldn't forget are our paramilitary, which is close to twice the size of the PLA, and importantly, are battle hardened from COIN operations, and know the lay of the land (Esp ITBP)

Paramilitary forces are trained and equipped for internal/border security duties and in some cases COIN operations. I'm not sure how they would be useful in a conventional war. They have no heavy weapons, no APC's/IFV's, very few helicopters. ITBP does a decent job of manning the Chinese border and the BSF does the same on the western IB. At the most they can take over some of the COIN duties in J&K while the army moves its own forces to the frontlines. We have to bear in mind that even in COIN their usefulness is limited considering that the current COIN grid in J&K is led by RR, Paras and regular IA infantry. We haven't reached a stage where BSF or CRPF can take over those duties in peacetime and relieve the load on the IA.

Note: I am counting RR as part of IA not paramilitary.


I think the ITBP can perform the role of light infantry, holding mountain heights in secondary locations. As we saw in Kargil, it would require a huge effort and a lot of infantry (which the Chinese don't have) to evict them.
Given our recent successes in COIN in J&K, I think its time we start inducting paramilitary volunteers into the RR. They could form for e.g 1 company in each RR battalion. This could also be extended to volunteers from the Navy & Air force (e.g. Naval police and boarding parties / IAF Garuds) and State armed police. The insurgency is at a relatively low level and this may be a good time to experiment.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ks_sachin » 23 Jul 2020 10:48

Deans wrote:
nachiket wrote:Paramilitary forces are trained and equipped for internal/border security duties and in some cases COIN operations. I'm not sure how they would be useful in a conventional war. They have no heavy weapons, no APC's/IFV's, very few helicopters. ITBP does a decent job of manning the Chinese border and the BSF does the same on the western IB. At the most they can take over some of the COIN duties in J&K while the army moves its own forces to the frontlines. We have to bear in mind that even in COIN their usefulness is limited considering that the current COIN grid in J&K is led by RR, Paras and regular IA infantry. We haven't reached a stage where BSF or CRPF can take over those duties in peacetime and relieve the load on the IA.

Note: I am counting RR as part of IA not paramilitary.


I think the ITBP can perform the role of light infantry, holding mountain heights in secondary locations. As we saw in Kargil, it would require a huge effort and a lot of infantry (which the Chinese don't have) to evict them.
Given our recent successes in COIN in J&K, I think its time we start inducting paramilitary volunteers into the RR. They could form for e.g 1 company in each RR battalion. This could also be extended to volunteers from the Navy & Air force (e.g. Naval police and boarding parties / IAF Garuds) and State armed police. The insurgency is at a relatively low level and this may be a good time to experiment.

Marcos and Garuda already are attached to RRs as part of the CI grid AFAIK.
Other paramilitary not probably a good idea. Training and ethos quite different and trust. After all the RR carries the ethos of its parent regt.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Gyan » 23 Jul 2020 10:56

nachiket wrote:
k prasad wrote:
Another major force availability that we shouldn't forget are our paramilitary, which is close to twice the size of the PLA, and importantly, are battle hardened from COIN operations, and know the lay of the land (Esp ITBP)

Paramilitary forces are trained and equipped for internal/border security duties and in some cases COIN operations. I'm not sure how they would be useful in a conventional war. They have no heavy weapons, no APC's/IFV's, very few helicopters. ITBP does a decent job of manning the Chinese border and the BSF does the same on the western IB. At the most they can take over some of the COIN duties in J&K while the army moves its own forces to the frontlines. We have to bear in mind that even in COIN their usefulness is limited considering that the current COIN grid in J&K is led by RR, Paras and regular IA infantry. We haven't reached a stage where BSF or CRPF can take over those duties in peacetime and relieve the load on the IA.

Note: I am counting RR as part of IA



Lot of Manpower consuming work in military operations is routine like Guarding bridges, roads, communication centers, depots etc Moving stores, pitching tents, digging in multiple positions, handling decoys, running messages, observation posts etc

Even in actual fights, lot of work is assisting crew serviced weapons like Fetching ammo boxes or shells from storage to weapon or just guarding rear & flanks. Digging in and out. Moving weapons about etc.

Also most of fire fights are machine guns & mortars, which Central police forces can manage. A para military detachment + military detachment working jointly will bulk up & reinforce the military at lot of places. Though Army should start working with para military & central police forces as soon as possible to improve co ordination & imbibe military ethos

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby k prasad » 23 Jul 2020 11:10

^^^ that was my intended point as well. Our large and battle harden paramilitary forces gives us the flexibility to thin out army presence in interior areas and surge them into combat zones, if need be.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby manjgu » 23 Jul 2020 11:58

Gyan wrote:
nachiket wrote:Paramilitary forces are trained and equipped for internal/border security duties and in some cases COIN operations. I'm not sure how they would be useful in a conventional war. They have no heavy weapons, no APC's/IFV's, very few helicopters. ITBP does a decent job of manning the Chinese border and the BSF does the same on the western IB. At the most they can take over some of the COIN duties in J&K while the army moves its own forces to the frontlines. We have to bear in mind that even in COIN their usefulness is limited considering that the current COIN grid in J&K is led by RR, Paras and regular IA infantry. We haven't reached a stage where BSF or CRPF can take over those duties in peacetime and relieve the load on the IA.

Note: I am counting RR as part of IA



Lot of Manpower consuming work in military operations is routine like Guarding bridges, roads, communication centers, depots etc Moving stores, pitching tents, digging in multiple positions, handling decoys, running messages, observation posts etc

Even in actual fights, lot of work is assisting crew serviced weapons like Fetching ammo boxes or shells from storage to weapon or just guarding rear & flanks. Digging in and out. Moving weapons about etc.

Also most of fire fights are machine guns & mortars, which Central police forces can manage. A para military detachment + military detachment working jointly will bulk up & reinforce the military at lot of places. Though Army should start working with para military & central police forces as soon as possible to improve co ordination & imbibe military ethos



Gyan..thats a very bad idea actually to mix up regular army units/para mil ( as any army fella will tell u) . Agree though para mil can do lot of stuff like guarding infra etc ( roads, bridges etc)... the ethos / training of IA and para mil are v different and so not good to mix. PA also realised this in Bangladesh...where they mixed regular army units with paki para mil. the para mil cracked v quickly under fire and fled lowering the overall morale of the regular army units...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby KLNMurthy » 23 Jul 2020 12:44

Philip wrote:I think this is a new very welcome development as earlier the China policy was almost totally in the hands of the babus. In retrospect this devilry by XI has woken up the nation to the current and future plan the PRC has for us,total domination ,servility towards it or destruction. We now have a v.difficult job to do.The long term plan as to challenging the PRC in every sphere,forum globally, for India to survive in the future as an independent sovereign state. Apart from the military build-up,we must not lose sight of the boycott of the PRC economically and strong dpl. moves to be taken,playing the two "T" cards, Tibet and Taiwan.

Doesn’t seem that the CSG is new. The print.in article says it was started in 1975 by Indira Gandhi.

Doesn’t that mean CSG bears responsibility whatever errors were committed in China policy since 1975? Its composition seems to consist of top bureaucrats of key ministries plus vice-chiefs of the services, so it’s mostly exactly the kind of babu outfit we decry so much here.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 23 Jul 2020 12:58

abhik wrote:
But this time they have come not to return as is evident from Chinese having blocked Galwan valley and Kangka appraoches to Chip Chap River.

Any idea where Kangka is? Is it same or near Gorga/hot springs? TIA.
This Kangka cannot be near Gogra area because it is supposed to block access to Chip Chap river.

Chip Chap river flows near the DBO area therefore this Kangka approach must be near around DBO/Depsang plains OR the author is mixing facts.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Mollick.R » 23 Jul 2020 13:07

Deans wrote:
nachiket wrote:Paramilitary forces are trained and equipped for internal/border security duties and in some cases COIN operations. I'm not sure how they would be useful in a conventional war. They have no heavy weapons, no APC's/IFV's, very few helicopters. ITBP does a decent job of manning the Chinese border and the BSF does the same on the western IB. At the most they can take over some of the COIN duties in J&K while the army moves its own forces to the frontlines. We have to bear in mind that even in COIN their usefulness is limited considering that the current COIN grid in J&K is led by RR, Paras and regular IA infantry. We haven't reached a stage where BSF or CRPF can take over those duties in peacetime and relieve the load on the IA.

Note: I am counting RR as part of IA not paramilitary.


I think the ITBP can perform the role of light infantry, holding mountain heights in secondary locations. As we saw in Kargil, it would require a huge effort and a lot of infantry (which the Chinese don't have) to evict them.
Given our recent successes in COIN in J&K, I think its time we start inducting paramilitary volunteers into the RR. They could form for e.g 1 company in each RR battalion. This could also be extended to volunteers from the Navy & Air force (e.g. Naval police and boarding parties / IAF Garuds) and State armed police. The insurgency is at a relatively low level and this may be a good time to experiment.


Though it's from wire, still posting it again (This article was posted & discussed here few weeks ago).
The article highlights lack of few critical operational capabilities.

BSF, India’s ‘First Line of Defence’, is Not Equipped to Face an Enemy Military Attack

https://thewire.in/security/bsf-indias-first-line-of-defence-is-not-equipped-face-an-enemy-military-attack

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby schinnas » 23 Jul 2020 13:51

I didn't click on the Wire article as I dont read such motivated "news" portals. BSF is not military - it is paramilitary under home ministry. It naturally is not equipped to face enemy military attack. For that we have IA. BSF faces its equivalent para military in Pakistan and is more than capable of thwarting their mischiefs.

What is Wire trying to prove?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ks_sachin » 23 Jul 2020 13:58

schinnas wrote:I didn't click on the Wire article as I dont read such motivated "news" portals. BSF is not military - it is paramilitary under home ministry. It naturally is not equipped to face enemy military attack. For that we have IA. BSF faces its equivalent para military in Pakistan and is more than capable of thwarting their mischiefs.

What is Wire trying to prove?


I think the issue is that if the Pakistan attacks in the western sector they will not oblige us by choosing to attack with their para military forces just because we have para military troops in that sector.

If the Pak Army surprises us then the BSF is toast.

Their TOE and training is also suspect in so far as support of any kind to own forces when initiating action.

A better example would be the Assam Rifles who are staffed by the Army and have a better reputation as troops. So much so that they are an organic part of at least one brigade under 17 Mth Div. What their tasking would be I will find out.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nishant.gupta » 23 Jul 2020 14:06

Philip wrote:Titbit in the TOI.IN P-8Is and MIG-29Ks also being deployed against China. P-8s known for some time,but the 29Ks,excellent news.We have 40 odd 29Ks,enough to equip both the VikA and the Vikrant still awaiting completion,will have to do a year of trials and then be commissioned.Expected yr. of commissioning around early 2022. Until then these birds will be of immense help in combating the PLAAF. The VikA is reportedly somewhere in the ANC region,just exercised with the USS Nimitz,and will have its full complement of aircraft aboard,around 20+. That will leave the second sqd. meant for the Vikrant available for Himalayan duties. Great to see the IN ready for battle on both fronts.

Meanwhile in Ru,its only CV the Kuz in in the focks being repaired and refitted with new weaponry , sensors,etc. expected to take another 2 years.The capsizing of Ru's largest floating dock capable of handling the Kuz not too long ago was a major setback. Therefore,their 29Ks will possibly be available should we want a few more.An extra batch of new upgraded 29Ks could be ordered while we lease the exg. CV aircraft from the Kuz.


Sir, a small question....why would Russia support India with their own 29K's against China? Wouldn't if favor them to stay "neutral"?

If I was a Russian, I would be wise to keep equidistant from both India and China and overtly support a truce and covertly make money out of the whole situation by supplying both of them. Why would I cut off one source of revenue from China by explicitly supplying India? I would rather go ahead and try to sell some more S-400's to Chinis.

Another question: I would assume a Roosi Mig would be having all specs and languages which are local for their pilots. How will an Indian pilot, with almost zero prior experience, comfortably fly that fighter in battle? That too, a naval pilot doing stunts over Himalayas. That would be a sure shot Kamikaze stunt IMO.

Third question: I would not want my car to be driven by someone else into a cross country derby. Why would a Russian pilot want the same? (OK this question is a bit of a long stretch since I dont think that IF such a decision was taken, the Russian pilots will really be asked about their opinions)

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby chola » 23 Jul 2020 14:21

^^^ Yes, the Russkies will not stay away from either us or the chinis (or the pakis for that matter.) They would embrace all of their suckers customers with the same gusto. Sure! We sell you MiG-29 and SU-30 very quick for chini border war. Meanwhile, we develop advance version of RD-93 that we sell many to chini re-painted aeroplane in Pakistan.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Gyan » 23 Jul 2020 14:29

manjgu wrote:
Gyan wrote:

Lot of Manpower consuming work in military operations is routine like Guarding bridges, roads, communication centers, depots etc Moving stores, pitching tents, digging in multiple positions, handling decoys, running messages, observation posts etc

Even in actual fights, lot of work is assisting crew serviced weapons like Fetching ammo boxes or shells from storage to weapon or just guarding rear & flanks. Digging in and out. Moving weapons about etc.

Also most of fire fights are machine guns & mortars, which Central police forces can manage. A para military detachment + military detachment working jointly will bulk up & reinforce the military at lot of places. Though Army should start working with para military & central police forces as soon as possible to improve co ordination & imbibe military ethos



Gyan..thats a very bad idea actually to mix up regular army units/para mil ( as any army fella will tell u) . Agree though para mil can do lot of stuff like guarding infra etc ( roads, bridges etc)... the ethos / training of IA and para mil are v different and so not good to mix. PA also realised this in Bangladesh...where they mixed regular army units with paki para mil. the para mil cracked v quickly under fire and fled lowering the overall morale of the regular army units...


That is very pertinent. I wonder whats the work around? Immediate moblization, joint field training to firm up their resolve in next 1 month? Pak used Paramiliary in Kargill and even China is largely conscript or reluctant Army.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pushkar.bhat » 23 Jul 2020 15:12

Gyan wrote:
That is very pertinent. I wonder whats the work around? Immediate moblization, joint field training to firm up their resolve in next 1 month? Pak used Paramiliary in Kargill and even China is largely conscript or reluctant Army.


China no more has a conscripted army.


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