China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

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chola
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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 26 Jul 2020 09:52

^^^ Now what would the Israeli do if Iran or Iraq gets something like this?

Oh yes, they would drop a bomb on said facility. Waiting and calling for collective action is pretty much useless.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 27 Jul 2020 15:23

The next chini LHD class, the Type 076, is supposed to have EMALS and can launch fixed wing aircraft most likely UAVs.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/hisutton/2020/07/23/stealth-uavs-could-arm-chinas-type-076-assault-carrier/#7c1feaa16f3d


Stealth UAVs Could Give China’s Type-076 Assault Carrier More Firepower

H I Sutton Contributor
Aerospace & Defense

Image

The Chinese Navy is building assault carriers to support amphibious operations, like a possible invasion of Taiwan or landings on disputed islands in the South China Sea. The first two ships, called LHDs (landing helicopter docks) in naval terminology, are still being outfitted. But information is already emerging suggesting that the follow-on design, the Type-076, will have much more firepower.

The Chinese Navy, officially known as the People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN), is still new to the assault carrier game. Their current LHDs, which have yet to enter service, are the Type-075. These feature a spacious flight deck and are generally equivalent to the U.S. Navy’s America Class assault carrier. They can carry helicopters, including rotor-wing drones, and hovercraft. But it seems unlikely that they will host jet aircraft or UAVs (uncrewed air vehicles). Not so the Type-076.

A document circulating on the Chinese internet appears to be a request for proposals for the next generation of assault carrier. While it cannot be verified, it does appear to reflect the direction of PLAN thinking. It indirectly lays out the specification for the ship in the form of a list of systems and features. If it is broadly correct, then the Type-076 will carry jet aircraft of some sort.

We can infer this because a key new system will be an electromagnetic aircraft launch system, or EMALS, the 21st century equivalent to the steam catapult used for launching planes from aircraft carriers. A similar system is fitted to the U.S. Navy’s Ford Class aircraft carriers. China’s own next generation aircraft carrier is also reported to have EMALS, so China has a working knowledge of the technology. The U.S,. Navy has reportedly suffered teething problems, however. We should not assume that China will face the same issues, but it is a brand new technology so there are development risks involved.

Having EMALs on an assault carrier could be a significant game changer for China. It would allow it to carry jet aircraft, such as fighters or large UAVs. UAVs with an offensive weapons load are term UCAVs (uncrewed combat air vehicles). These could greatly increase air support for landing operations

...


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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Mollick.R » 27 Jul 2020 16:25

X-post
In another setback to China, Russia suspends deliveries of S-400 surface-to-air missiles
ANI Last Updated: Jul 27, 2020, 08:32 AM IST

IMoscow [Russia]: Russia has announced suspension of S-400 surface-to-air missile systems to China and said the resumption of further deliveries is yet to be ascertained.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/world-news/in-another-setback-to-china-russia-suspends-deliveries-of-s-400-surface-to-air-missiles/articleshow/77189681.cms?utm_source=ETTopNews&utm_medium=HPTN&utm_campaign=AL1&utm_content=23

What this hints ??? :?: :!: :-?

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 28 Jul 2020 14:44

LOL. Chinis are scared to death of an Amreeki attack. (That's why there were public air raid exercises in Beijing.)

Think! An American attack in the SCS could be coordinated with an offensive on the LAC.

It bears watching anyhoo. The kind of fireworks and equipment -- Nimitz CVNs, Ticos, Arleigh Burkes, F-18s, Type 055s, Type 052s, Shang SSNs -- that war in the SCS would bring would be fun as heck to watch!

https://eurasiantimes.com/us-could-attack-nansha-islands-in-south-china-sea-before-us-elections-chinese-military-experts/


ASIA PACIFIC
US Could Attack China, Seize Disputed Islands In South China Sea Before 2020 US Elections – Military Experts


US-China War: The US has kept expanding its vessel and aircraft operations in the South China Sea. Multiple reconnaissance planes such as RC-135, E-8C and P-8A flew to the region almost nonstop in June and July, B-1B and B-52H bombers flew over the South China Sea multiple times.


Published 2 days ago on July 26, 2020 By EurAsian Times Desk

Ties between the US and China are probably the worst they have ever been especially after the Trump administration imposed all-round, high-intensity maximum pressure on China on political, diplomatic, economic and military fronts.
...

US dual-carrier taskforce held two military exercises in the region in July alone, not to mention the innumerable “freedom of navigation operations” performed by relevant naval vessels in the past. It would not be surprising if the US had long planned to attack China.

The signs are clear that the US may, to everyone’s surprise, attack Nansha (Spratly) islands and reefs. It is vital for the Chinese side to make military plans as early as possible to respond to the possible attacks from the US side.

Originally Penned by Chinese Military Experts in Mandarin.


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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby YashG » 28 Jul 2020 15:54

chola wrote:Another Type 056 corvette commissioned. So many that watchers have lost precise count. At least 50 in service and about another 20 in fitting and trials.

1500tons and pretty well packed with weapons -- 76mm gun, 2x30mm cannons, 4xAShM and 2x3 torpedos. Towed sonar in A version for anti-sub role. Half the size of our Kamorta (of which we have just 4) but not much less armed. Missing a helo hangar but has a helipad.

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/chinese-navy-commissions-another-type-056-class-corvette

Multiple iterations. Over 8 ships per years
Image


The worse their economy does, the more military showoff they do. Their crazy military production just seems to confirm their economy is in a tizzy. People often overthink Chinese strategy - when in reality their strategy is just dumb. China has got the distinction of making enemy out of every strong country in the World ( US, Aus, Canada, India, UK, EU SE Asia & More). Even Germany didnt achieve the honors in WW2 (they had Japan, Italy on thr side atleast). China has not a single strong nation on thr side. Not one!

Their over-investment in underpeforming vessels at a time when they are short on money is just nuts! (China is the only major country to not have declared a large covid stimulus) https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/3087108/chinas-coronavirus-stimulus-geared-towards-economic-survival-no Compare this to their 2008 stimulus when the crisis was smaller.

Much of this money could go to stabilize their financial system - thats bubbling to a disaster. China is running out of money! https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/07/06/china-superpower-defense-technology-spending/ But No!

By now you'd think this sounds stupid. Exactly thats the point - Its just stupid! Just like why would China pick up a fight with every strong nation around the world? Thr policy calculus is just monkey business. Its sooo stupid that it seems good.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby YashG » 28 Jul 2020 16:05

@Chola have you seen an upick in Chinese military production since the start of the year?

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 28 Jul 2020 17:01

@Yash, I wrote about their MIC picking up way before the Wuhan virus when the trade was whacking them.

Their MIC -- like the one in old Soviet economy -- is used to absorb workers. Cheen has a pretty powerful private sector unlike the USSR. But the private sector is more vulnerable to trade issues than their SOEs. So when push comes to shove, the state-run part will provide jobs. Long term, building fighters and warships instead of consumer goods that provide economic dividends crushed the Soviet Union.

To be honest, the Type 056 I find to be a pretty nice little ship. It packs more fire power than the Kamorta, can work more roles and seemingly far less expensive too. With 70, they flood the SCS with them and free up their frigates and destroyers for waters further afield. I would like a mass produced corvette for the IN. We are 4 Kamortas for the IN (and 6 Saryus for CG) onlee.

Again, their mass numbers of ships enforce their strategy of dominating contested territory and global commons without firing a shot. Without these vessels they would not be able to take over the SCS.

As for pickup in production, I think so -- but again this trend began with the trade war before the virus. There is supposed to be four lines now for the J-20 for example. The J-10 and Flankers also have many lines with the latest marks being pumped out as the J-10C and J-16. They have about 20 destroyers (Type 052Ds and Type 055s) in the works and their new nuke sub mass production facility is supposedly up. Two 40K tons LHDs are near sea trials. Y-20s are seen in large numbers on factory grounds.

That's just ongoing production, they have probably two CATOBARs coming, a new LHD class with EMALS (see above), the J-31 naval fighter, H-20 bomber, Z-20 and Z-8L(wide) variants and uniqitous drones (include naval ones for their LHDs.)

BTW, they do have a targeted $1.4T tech package as stimulus. But you are right in that they do not have a covid-specific alleviation stimulus like the US or India. That actually is a good sign to global investors. They have not had to open the debt floodgates to achieve nominal growth (they are the only major economy to grow this quarter -- sales figures from MNCs bear this out.)

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby YashG » 28 Jul 2020 17:17

https://chinapower.csis.org/china-naval-modernization/

This page comprehensively shows how China's military production has upticked in 2019 & on path to exceed that in 2020!
2019 on the back of Trade War with US was a bad year & 2020 only more so. Yet China is producing ever more.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 28 Jul 2020 17:31

YashG wrote:https://chinapower.csis.org/china-naval-modernization/

This page comprehensively shows how China's military production has upticked in 2019 & on path to exceed that in 2020!
2019 on the back of Trade War with US was a bad year & 2020 only more so. Yet China is producing ever more.


Again, they need to provide jobs. This is how things work in a command economy. If people are losing jobs because of the natural market then the state comes in and provide jobs.

It's not just the mil factories.

Cheen just forced its three state run airlines (who run some of the the world's largest fleets of Boeings and Airbuses) to buy ARJ-21s and C919s.

They are forcing their private airlines to do the same.
https://www.airway1.com/comac-wins-deal-to-sell-100-arj21-and-c919-jets-to-chinas-private-airline/

They are producing 60% of the world's steel right now. And even more of its concrete. Some of this stuff is unbelievable when you see the reports. It all comes down to keeping the factories humming so people are not unemployed and out on the street rioting.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby YashG » 28 Jul 2020 18:35

chola wrote:@Yash, I wrote about their MIC picking up way before the Wuhan virus when the trade was whacking them.
BTW, they do have a targeted $1.4T tech package as stimulus. But you are right in that they do not have a covid-specific alleviation stimulus like the US or India. That actually is a good sign to global investors. They have not had to open the debt floodgates to achieve nominal growth (they are the only major economy to grow this quarter -- sales figures from MNCs bear this out.)


About the debt floodgates : they are not in a position to. There system is creaking under heavy debt.

They surprisingly controlled corona much much better. Perhaps, ur correct on growth - for the fact that Chinese only had a quarter washed out due to covid, they should show up a positive growth rate ( I read 2.2% somewhere). I mean China is not even close to most infected countries. Its some kind of miracle but only a draconian communist govt can do that. Indians aren't even ready to use a tracing app. No wonder!

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 28 Jul 2020 18:39

China simply did not report Corona, a .5% death in population can be easily suppressed.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby YashG » 29 Jul 2020 14:21

Okay I have to throw this grenade into the works!
So a report estimates that China is probably spending 87% equivalent of US Defence budget ( not counting its defense R&D!)
https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2020/03/chinas-defense-spending-larger-it-looks/164060/

What this probably leads to is super interesting!
At 87% of defense spending, we must be seeing China notching up super impressive equivalency. But while I see numbers notching up but not 90% kind of quality equivalency at all. Something is amiss in PRC's light & sound show.
For e.g. the same report above says China is adding 14 ships/yr while US is adding 5 but the tonnages, firepower & quality says something very different. One Zumwalt class DDG is 10X the tonnage of 056 corvette that China is adding by dozens. Even in terms of 5th gen aircraft, China is adding way less than what US is adding, perhaps half or less ( Refer to the foreignpolicy article above).

China doesnt seem to be getting the same efficiency from its defence investments as it should. This would actually support the arguent @Chola made above. That Chinese miltech industry is an employment generation scheme too. Perhaps even more in these times.

That brings me to the second point - Its nothing new - But any employment generation scheme is inefficient and quality blind. Chinese mil hardware might not hold well in an actual shooting war. I'd love to see hard evidence for this - will share if I come across some.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 29 Jul 2020 14:27

Aditya_V wrote:China simply did not report Corona, a .5% death in population can be easily suppressed.


They can hide and ignore whatever they want but the virus wouldn't care. It either impacts the economy or it doesn't. For us, we should care less how many of them died but whether their economy can continue to produce.

If hiding deaths allows the economy to return to normal then all the power to them.

Since we never trust chini numbers, the proof in the pudding is always sales numbers from MNCs. Here both Tesla and Apple are going gangbusters in Cheen while the rest of the world slumps. And it is happening in spite of a trade war.

https://techcrunch.com/2020/07/28/tesla-china-revenue/

China now accounts for nearly one-quarter of Tesla revenue

Tesla has been counting on China to maintain its sales momentum, and it seems to be on track with the plan.

In the three months ended June 30, the automaker’s revenue in China climbed 102.9% year-over-year to $1.4 billion, according to its latest SEC filing. That means China now makes up 23.3% of Tesla’s total revenues of $6 billion in the quarter, compared to just about 11% in the same period a year before.



https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/29/apple-china-iphone-sales-jump-sharply-in-the-second-quarter.html


Apple’s China iPhone sales jump 225% in the second quarter as recovery continues, research shows

PUBLISHED TUE, JUL 28 20207:17 PM EDT
UPDATED 2 HOURS AGO
Arjun Kharpal


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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 29 Jul 2020 15:23

YashG wrote:For e.g. the same report above says China is adding 14 ships/yr while US is adding 5 but the tonnages, firepower & quality says something very different. One Zumwalt class DDG is 10X the tonnage of 056 corvette that China is adding by dozens. Even in terms of 5th gen aircraft, China is adding way less than what US is adding, perhaps half or less ( Refer to the foreignpolicy article above).

...

That brings me to the second point - Its nothing new - But any employment generation scheme is inefficient and quality blind. Chinese mil hardware might not hold well in an actual shooting war. I'd love to see hard evidence for this - will share if I come across some.


Cheen's weapons will not do as well as Amreeki ones. There is no question on this.

Amreeki weapons are made to be used. The US military is in a continuous state of warfare.

Cheen's weapons are for deterrent and intimidation and not necessarily for use. The chinis military had not fought in four decades. (The thug attack on 16 Bihar done with medieval spiked rods not manufactured from their MIC.)

But they do serve their purpose of creating persistent overwhelming presence and fait accompli in contested areas. Those 70 type 056s are not facing USN DDGs on most days but the small fleets of the Philippines and Vietnam.

In the air, their aircraft wear down Japan's air force with constant scrambles.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/28/asia/japan-china-fighter-jet-scrambles-intl-hnk-dst/index.html

Japan's air force faces a 'relentless' burden, imposed by China

...

"The JASDF's fleet of some 215 F-15J aircraft bears the brunt of scramble tasking," he wrote.
"Since 2016, the JASDF have often launched four aircraft for each scramble.
"These daily scrambles are gradually wearing the F-15J fleet out. The concern is that China has some six times more fighters then the JASDF, and could further ramp up intrusions whenever it considers appropriate. The in-service life of Japan's F-15J fleet is now almost a decision that lies with China,"



Beyond that, protracted and continuous interations of these product increase the capability and capacity of their industrial base. It is a relentless process of advancement by the numbers.

This morning:
https://mobile.twitter.com/RupprechtDeino/status/1288230472351449089
@Rupprecht_A
@RupprechtDeino
Once again a new factory fresh J-10C powered by the WS-10B Taihang spotted at CAC with once again its construction numbers obscured.


For the first two decades production J-10s flew with AL-31s. Now they fly with WS-10s. Years of producing variants in both the J-10 and WS-10 eventually created a SEF with an indigenous engine.

Now look at LPDs and LHDs. They got their first Type 071 landing dock about a dozen years ago. (We got the Jalashwa -- ex USS Trenton -- at the same time.) Today they have 8 in the water. They also sold one to the Thais.

Then suddenly two years ago they began building something that they've never built before, LHDs. In those two short years, they now have two in water and a third one in modules. The first one is already going into sea trails.

This morning:
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2020/07/chinas-first-type-075-assault-carrier-is-starting-sea-trials/

China’s First Type-075 Assault Carrier Is Starting Sea Trials

...

The Hudong-Zhonghua yard in Shanghai where the lead Type-075 has been built has already launched a second ship. And analysis of commercial satellite imagery suggests that module for a third may be on its way. At the moment the yard is building the Type-054A frigate for the Pakistan Navy and, it appears, a Type-071 LPD for Thailand.


We can unequivocably say that chini hardware cannot match US ones in a shooting war today. But with that many aircraft and ships who (other than the US) wants to be in a fight with them in the first place?

What about the strategic advantage of selling one of these warships? That needs to be calculated as well.

And with newer marks and models coming out all the time, they WILL be getting better. The more they iterate, the better things will get. It is why people tinker with existing models the world over. To improve things. Done enough times, quality is inevitable.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby YashG » 29 Jul 2020 18:22

chola wrote:To improve things. Done enough times, quality is inevitable.


True. Yes no one other than US wants to be in a fight with them.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby abhik » 05 Aug 2020 20:32

China Builds Surveillance Network In International Waters Of South China Sea

The platforms carry a range of sensors and communications. These include electro-optical / infrared sensor turrets, high frequency radio and cellular masts. Most also have a large radar dome on them, which may be the primary sensor. The platforms are unoccupied, and rarely need maintenance.


The unseen element below the waves is often called the Underwater Great Wall. This will be a network of sonar arrays laid on the sea floor. In some respects it is similar to the famous SOSUS system deployed by the U.S. Navy during the Cold War. But the technology involved will be much newer and fit the local environment. That China is planning this seabed sensor network is not hidden, but naturally the technology, location and status is a military secret. And unlike the sensor platforms it cannot be seen from a passing ship.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Lisa » 05 Aug 2020 23:05

^ We should simply steal one to see how it works etc.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Rakesh » 19 Aug 2020 02:46

How to tell the PLA Sukhoi's apart!
https://www.vayuaerospace.in/article/53 ... 9-s-apart-
13 August 2020

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Shameek » 19 Aug 2020 04:27

^^ Interesting article. Always amazes me how the Chinese keep copying and Russia keeps selling them new stuff to copy. :-?

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby kit » 21 Aug 2020 23:10

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a33635662/china-glide-bomb-tianlei-500/

The Tianlei 500 is a 500-kilogram bomb, or the equivalent of 1,100 pounds. The bomb carries 240 individual submunitions about the size of a tennis ball, and is designed to spread them across an area of 6,000 square meters. This allows the bomb to affect a wider area than a traditional high-explosive warhead, peppering the target zone with hundreds of smaller explosions instead of one large one.

The bomblets, each with the explosive power of a hand grenade, are deadly against ground troops and unarmored vehicles such as supply trucks. Bomblets can also destroy enemy armored vehicles or damage them to the point their crews abandon them. The bomblets damage tracks or wheels, resulting in “mobility kills,” or damage gun barrels, fire control equipment, and sensors, inflicting so-called “firepower kills.”

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby nam » 21 Aug 2020 23:55

The nonsense that gets told by the Chinese. 6000 sq meters is 45 meters radius. Hardly a achievement for a cluster weapon..

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 22 Aug 2020 07:31

Shameek wrote:^^ Interesting article. Always amazes me how the Chinese keep copying and Russia keeps selling them new stuff to copy. :-?

The Russians are not fools, this is most likely license manufacturing which in a closed H&D CCP environment where achievements are to be shown it is declared as reverse engineering. There will some Chinese efforts but not to extent the Chinese claim.

P.S it is like Pakis claim of JF 17 is totally Pakistani whereas in truth everything gets made in China except final screwdrivergiri in Pakistan.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 30 Aug 2020 16:47

^^^ Obviously, the Russians approved of the arraignment.

1) The SU-27SK kit was first assembled in Cheen in 1998 but by 2002 the J-11B was flying with chini radar, weapons AND engine. There is no way that those things could be integrated so fast without sharing of code from the OEM,

2) unlike the J-11, we know that the Z-20 is a true RE of the Black Hawk because the Unkil, unlike Russia, is not a partner. It took the chinis three decades to finish the CopyHawk. The Z-9 and Z-8 which were licensced from France were built in countless numbers and variants during same 30 years. RE is not a choice even for Cheen if license production could be had.

So working with the OEM takes you four years to go from Flanker to J-11B while RE takes you 30 to go from Black Hawk to Z-20. You'd be stupid to RE unless you absolutely had to.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 30 Aug 2020 16:58

Pretty big story in chini mil watch circles -- they just revealed the carrier borne KJ-600 AEW:
https://mobile.twitter.com/RupprechtDeino/status/1299342549568688128

@Rupprecht_A
@RupprechtDeino
In my opinion one of the most important unveilings this year, the XAC KJ-600 carrierborne AEW prototype has been spotted at the CFTE at Xi'an-Yanliang.

See also report by
@CSBiggers
and Sean O'Connor at Jane's.
Image

Image



https://mobile.twitter.com/RupprechtDeino/status/1299947547923017728

@Rupprecht_A
@RupprechtDeino
Slowly the images are getting better - ok, not really better but at least that it looks real - of the XAC KJ-600 during its maiden flight yesterday.

As such it seems this CGI was pretty accurate.

Image
Image
Image

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby John » 30 Aug 2020 21:07

Aditya_V wrote:
Shameek wrote:^^ Interesting article. Always amazes me how the Chinese keep copying and Russia keeps selling them new stuff to copy. :-?

The Russians are not fools, this is most likely license manufacturing which in a closed H&D CCP environment where achievements are to be shown it is declared as reverse engineering. There will some Chinese efforts but not to extent the Chinese claim.

P.S it is like Pakis claim of JF 17 is totally Pakistani whereas in truth everything gets made in China except final screwdrivergiri in Pakistan.

Yea China has pumped tens of billions under the table to Russia and most purchases are just cover ups for production of local variant via license transfer (S-300 is great example and billions Chinese pumped in helped Russia develop S-400).

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby sivab » 30 Aug 2020 22:11


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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby kit » 31 Aug 2020 00:13

chola wrote:@Yash, I wrote about their MIC picking up way before the Wuhan virus when the trade was whacking them.

Their MIC -- like the one in old Soviet economy -- is used to absorb workers. Cheen has a pretty powerful private sector unlike the USSR. But the private sector is more vulnerable to trade issues than their SOEs. So when push comes to shove, the state-run part will provide jobs. Long term, building fighters and warships instead of consumer goods that provide economic dividends crushed the Soviet Union.

To be honest, the Type 056 I find to be a pretty nice little ship. It packs more fire power than the Kamorta, can work more roles and seemingly far less expensive too. With 70, they flood the SCS with them and free up their frigates and destroyers for waters further afield. I would like a mass produced corvette for the IN. We are 4 Kamortas for the IN (and 6 Saryus for CG) onlee.

Again, their mass numbers of ships enforce their strategy of dominating contested territory and global commons without firing a shot. Without these vessels they would not be able to take over the SCS.

As for pickup in production, I think so -- but again this trend began with the trade war before the virus. There is supposed to be four lines now for the J-20 for example. The J-10 and Flankers also have many lines with the latest marks being pumped out as the J-10C and J-16. They have about 20 destroyers (Type 052Ds and Type 055s) in the works and their new nuke sub mass production facility is supposedly up. Two 40K tons LHDs are near sea trials. Y-20s are seen in large numbers on factory grounds.




Pretty similar to Nazi Germany that commenced on a rearmament plan just before the second world war, committing labor to increase domestic armament manufacturing and reducing unemployment !!.. they were spending like anything based on assumption once neighbors are conquered., they can be plundered of their national resources.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 31 Aug 2020 13:31



As much as I might want to be this, it looks like that cemetary inters casualties from 1962.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 31 Aug 2020 13:49

kit wrote:Pretty similar to Nazi Germany that commenced on a rearmament plan just before the second world war, committing labor to increase domestic armament manufacturing and reducing unemployment !!.. they were spending like anything based on assumption once neighbors are conquered., they can be plundered of their national resources.


Germans are preeminent warrior race even among goras. Nazi weapons were built to be used. Cheen is not a warrior race and what's more the chinis themselves know it. They use their military output in a totally different way. Instead of Blitzkrieg, the chini MIC creates mobile Maginot lines based on machines to take over disputed territories and global commons while deterring retaliation by shear numbers of ships and aircraft that the other side can't match.

I can predict with total confidence that unless someone blitzkrieg them, there will be no war. I have 40 years of herbivorous PLA behavior to backup this confidence. Beyond shooting students, Tibetan monks and maybe a few knife-wielding muslims, they simply don't fight but occupy places that other people have a hard time getting to. Unless you attack them kinetically you will end up in a game they prefer and that is a production race of machines and infrastructure.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 31 Aug 2020 14:11

Their CATOBAR is taking shape before our eyes. That section of the drydock the carrier is in is supposed to be a monstrous 350 meters long. That thing fills it end to end though there are gaps between the modules. It might be 100K tons when all is said and done.

The warship being built in front of it is a 7.5K ton Type 052DL destroyer the size of our P15A/B.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RupprechtDeino/status/1300042326207795200

@Rupprecht_A
@RupprechtDeino
Once again a new recent and this time slightly better/clearer image of the Type 003 aircraft carrier under construction at the Jiangnan Shipyard in Shanghai.

Image

Image

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Cyrano » 31 Aug 2020 16:29

Thats a HUGE shipyard !

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 31 Aug 2020 16:58

Shameek wrote:^^ Interesting article. Always amazes me how the Chinese keep copying and Russia keeps selling them new stuff to copy. :-?

russia also partnered with germans for tanks before ww2 under tractor design sham

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 01 Sep 2020 13:52

^^^ Russkies are as insidious and untrustworthy as the chinis.

People here were worried about the leak of the Scorpene from Oz and I could only laugh. Why worry about that when the chinis have full blueprints and specs on the Kilo, R-77, SU-30 and Brahmos (CM-302/Yakhont) among many others?

We buy the S-400 and the chinis will have everything about it in hand.

Now the P-8I and the Apache, the chinis might or might not have had hacked or stolen intelligence but it wouldn't be on a platter for them.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Cyrano » 01 Sep 2020 14:44

Building such complex systems using stolen blueprints without real understanding, testing data and normatives = third rate maal that may look good and earn a promotion from the Party but will be blown to bits upon contact with reality & enemy.

If the current conflict escalates, I believe we will witness the unraveling of Chini MIC for all to see.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 01 Sep 2020 15:14

amar_p wrote:Building such complex systems using stolen blueprints without real understanding, testing data and normatives = third rate maal that may look good and earn a promotion from the Party but will be blown to bits upon contact with reality & enemy.

If the current conflict escalates, I believe we will witness the unraveling of Chini MIC for all to see.


Actually the vast majority of stuff they use (J-11, Z-9, etc.) are TOT from the Russians and French. The tortured saga of the Z-20 tells us that RE is not a good option to mass produce any modern weapon system.

As for them just building them without understanding is ludicrous. They are not going to put up billion dollar manufacturing infrastructure without knowing what the hell they are doing.

The thing with Cheen is their stuff is never the best but they are functional with a good price point which is why they have captured such a huge part of global manufacturing. I expect a similar thing from their MIC.

Where they lack is in actual fighting ability and experience. In fact, they might even lack the disposition and will to fight. You can't go 40 years as a growing power with expanding interest globally without engaging in some conflict but they have. It takes some conscious avoiding!

Their MIC won't unravel but their military reputation certainly will. In fact, if they lose badly they'll pump out even more stuff to compensate and arm for the next round.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Cyrano » 01 Sep 2020 16:02

Chola ji, I agree with most of what you said. However, I see one crucial difference between Mil H/W & Systems MFG and commercial MFG. Thats the Market i.e. competition & customer validation.

No competition and single/very few customers for complex mil systems, in an authoritarian and corrupt regime, will allow substandard maal to flourish. The USSR MIC, despite significant scientific and R&D capability lagged behind the West due to this, which they long justified as "Quantity has its own Quality".

My take is that the Chinese mil maal will be an order of magnitude behind Russian maal in terms of performance and 2 orders of magnitude behind US & EU maal.

Cheeni keechad mein Kamal nahin khiltein hain ! (In Chinese mud Lotuses do not grow).

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby kit » 01 Sep 2020 16:21

amar_p wrote:Chola ji, I agree with most of what you said. However, I see one crucial difference between Mil H/W & Systems MFG and commercial MFG. Thats the Market i.e. competition & customer validation.

No competition and single/very few customers for complex mil systems, in an authoritarian and corrupt regime, will allow substandard maal to flourish. The USSR MIC, despite significant scientific and R&D capability lagged behind the West due to this, which they long justified as "Quantity has its own Quality".

My take is that the Chinese mil maal will be an order of magnitude behind Russian maal in terms of performance and 2 orders of magnitude behind US & EU maal.

Cheeni keechad mein Kamal nahin khiltein hain ! (In Chinese mud Lotuses do not grow).


The proof is in th pudding, wait for the day the chinks go to war.. Gobar times is bleating about how high and mighty China is

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 01 Sep 2020 16:51

^^^ Hopefully we do not have to wait too long with the tensions in Ladakh.

But I've been disappointed many times since Doklam. We never see them fight and their mass of equipment grows monstrously bigger every year.

https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2020/august/8919-dalian-shipyard-launches-8th-type-055-25th-type-052d-destroyers-for-pla-navy.html

That's 25 destroyers the size of our P15A/B and 8 cruisers bigger than the Ticos. The first Type 055 was launched only two years ago.

With that much stuff nobody really wants to fight them to test out a theory. There will be more hesitation in the future as their fleets at sea and in air grow bigger.

But let's hope they lose their heads like Pakis and go into a fight with their no-experience military and single-child/end-of-the-family-line soldiers.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby k prasad » 02 Sep 2020 05:30

^^^ Chola-saar, I'm glad the potential for war is exciting enough to you that you're hoping for and looking forward to it. But then again, its not you risking your life and limbs here, is it? We're talking about real people losing their lives, our brave jawans and PLA soldiers too, mostly conscripts, and their families losing loved ones. No one should look forward to that. Ever. Please do not be flippant about this. This is not a reality TV show meant for consumer TRPs.

(sorry if this was rude, but as a defence brat, your post rubbed me the wrong way. I have had friends who lost parents in the line of duty, and others who are serving officers)

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby vivek_ahuja » 02 Sep 2020 06:30

@k prasad: if war is to be had, would you prefer one where the Chinese are extremely well armed and equipped (as their slow but sure exponential growth curve is taking them), or one where we still have the advantage in quality? Which war would minimize human casualties on our side?

I think Chola has been making a good point that if the Chinese keep poking for a fight at this stage, we can still beat them (bloody but doable; discounting ballistic missiles etc.). Another 10 years at the current trajectories, and we will continue to be outclassed in several key areas (sea, for instance, cyber for another and drones for another). A battle we control is one where we suffer much less than one where we are taken by surprise and lack capability. Chola's comments are neither flippant not ignorant. If they are over-enthusiastic, it is because other folks on this forum have shown that this specific thread (China mil. watch) is not something that we seem to be able to clinically comment on. He even gets accused for shilling for the other side just because he is reporting methodically on what the Chinese are rolling out! I wish we were more detached than that. It sounds paradoxical, but on BRF we need a bit less jingoism on the OpFor watch threads and more clinical assessments.

I like visiting this thread just to see where the Chinese are headed in terms of military hardware. And it ain't pretty from our perspective in the long run.
Last edited by vivek_ahuja on 02 Sep 2020 06:40, edited 2 times in total.


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