India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 20 Aug 2020 23:04

It is truly Divine Grace that India is still together and marching forward despite such a treasonous person occupying the role of NSA and literally dictating strategic polity to the weak PM.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 21 Aug 2020 00:11

Generally, this situation seems the result of poorly defined legislative detail over such activities by present and former Indian government personnel, including all three arms of government - legislative officials, executive members of the administrative structure, and members of the judiciary. The laws need to specifically proscribe or penalize actions outside a framework. India does not have an official shadow cabinet system, so all opposition behavior is ad hoc in nature.

Further, the only tools to ensure correct behavior are blunt ones like anti-treason and sedition laws. Those have a place, but their repeated use simply makes them toothless. They are intended to be applied in cases where the person goes in to face capital punishment or life imprisonment for high treason.

Something like Menon's behavior is a symptom of lack of more defined restrictions on what public service personnel can or cannot do while interacting with outsiders. It needs fixing through a law passed in parliament.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 21 Aug 2020 04:03

now, the dems have entered the picture in an attempt to corner trump and the sole victim could still be India, all because of a treasonous babuz who was intent on sucking up to his bosses while damning India

via Firestarter @Firezstarter1

chanakyaa · Post by **chanakyaa** » 21 Aug 2020 06:23

Shivshankar Menon too is batting for US intervention in the internal affairs of India by his slanted commentary. Also letting "interventionist" within the US system but especially the Democrats know that they have allies like him inside the Indian system willing to take on Modi over his supposed "controversial" domestic agenda.

SSM has done a wonderful job of exposing the loyalty of babudom under Kangress regime. Never let an opportunity go waste. I do hope our loud mouth media, take break from SSR, and make a example out this. SSM = Kangriss == Pak+China == BIF. What a wonderful opportunity to bring out the treasonous behavior in front of aam janata and also set an example of career babus. By the way, SSM is on a payroll -- Distinguished Fellow at Brookings India.

sum · Post by **sum** » 21 Aug 2020 07:48

schinnas wrote:It is truly Divine Grace that India is still together and marching forward despite such a treasonous person occupying the role of NSA and literally dictating strategic polity to the weak PM.

++ 1000%

Truely a miracle we held together all these years with the kind of "eminent folks" holding the highest offices

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 21 Aug 2020 08:19

Suraj wrote:Generally, this situation seems the result of poorly defined legislative detail over such activities by present and former Indian government personnel, including all three arms of government - legislative officials, executive members of the administrative structure, and members of the judiciary. The laws need to specifically proscribe or penalize actions outside a framework. India does not have an official shadow cabinet system, so all opposition behavior is ad hoc in nature.

Further, the only tools to ensure correct behavior are blunt ones like anti-treason and sedition laws. Those have a place, but their repeated use simply makes them toothless. They are intended to be applied in cases where the person goes in to face capital punishment or life imprisonment for high treason.

Something like Menon's behavior is a symptom of lack of more defined restrictions on what public service personnel can or cannot do while interacting with outsiders. It needs fixing through a law passed in parliament.

thinktankis like pb metha, shampooboy et al speak the very same language in discussions away from the public eye but in places where influencers gather to understand and push the boundaries of national red lines. This may then be used to seed the presstitute media to subtly try and move some overton window.

at times such discussions can be hunted down in the recesses of you tube and other media

while one agrees with you about the law that needs to be passed, such creeps are retired and apparently unconnected to the govt of the day and so their free speech is uncurtailed.

In reality however, they, at times, have their briefs given by well heeled, all expense paying shadowy FFNGO types that seek specific outcomes by floating trial balloons to gauge the direction of the wind because these BIF FFNGOs have nefarious agendas of their own.

diplomatic hitmen like saran and menon are foreign policy and political mercenaries used mainly to reconnoiter virgin ground and at times mine the already well plowed field to precipitate directional changes to try and force strategic shifts

according to media, guys like harsh mander and shivshankar menon also work for george soros who has a vile anti India and anti Hindu agenda running.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 21 Aug 2020 08:49

Suraj wrote: Further, the only tools to ensure correct behavior are blunt ones like anti-treason and sedition laws. Those have a place, but their repeated use simply makes them toothless. They are intended to be applied in cases where the person goes in to face capital punishment or life imprisonment for high treason.

The problem is that SSM is not just a former minister in any cabinet position. He was NSA involved in the territorial integrity of India. What he published is a national security risk which gives credence to India's enemies like the UNPA. At a minimum, SSM's passport, and his immediate family's, should be invalidated until he gives an explanation to the government and parliament.

People like Shampoo Boy, and Mani Shanker Aiyer are really loudmouths who never were in any real position of authority in previous governments.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 21 Aug 2020 08:53

It is not a question of free speech at all. Having a law in place enables the implementation of a culture of politically penalizing interaction with external agencies .

Right now, the existence of just a blunt treason or sedition law (which aren’t really applicable here anyway) means there’s no nuanced way to manage this . It is a legislative requirement to have a law in place, just as OSA and other restrictions on engagement with foreigners apply very broadly .

Transnational social media platforms - such as Facebook - are an entirely unregulated platform right now . Shampoo boy may not be a minister but he’s an active member of a registered national party, and any such person has to be within the constraints of laws that prevent engagement with foreign agencies, or at least require full disclosure failing which they are subject to monetary penalties at least .

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 21 Aug 2020 09:02

India needs its own version of FARA. Its surprising (or instructive!) that this does not already exist given that Indira Gandhi used to complain about foreign interference.

Policy and infrastructure about the internet will also need to be looked at afresh because cutting off the internet as is done in trouble spots today is too blunt a tool. Such steps will negatively impact economic activity given the rise of remote work. An Indian firewall similar to the Chinese one needs to be put in place to allow citizens to work or watch Netflix while allowing security concerns to be addressed.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 21 Aug 2020 09:03

Passing legislation even with a majority in the lower house is a game of give and take. There are 81 other bills which are in the queue (several have passed), of which, 11 involve Home Affairs. I would argue action be taken now under existing law, and then craft a decent law (the enemy of the good should not be the perfect) and put it in the queue.

https://mpa.gov.in/bills-list

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 21 Aug 2020 09:51

vera_k wrote:India needs its own version of FARA. Its surprising (or instructive!) that this does not already exist given that Indira Gandhi used to complain about foreign interference.

Policy and infrastructure about the internet will also need to be looked at afresh because cutting off the internet as is done in trouble spots today is too blunt a tool. Such steps will negatively impact economic activity given the rise of remote work. An Indian firewall similar to the Chinese one needs to be put in place to allow citizens to work or watch Netflix while allowing security concerns to be addressed.

Yes FARA is a very good template in this context . A culture of required disclosure and transparency is necessary here . One of the worlds biggest nations cannot have it’s opposition head - however immature he may be - disappear out of public sight and deal with external powers with absolutely no oversight by domestic intelligence and interaction with policymakers of the elected government . That simply continues centuries of sordid history involving consorting with external enemies against a domestic rival .

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 21 Aug 2020 09:59

vera_k wrote:India needs its own version of FARA. Its surprising (or instructive!) that this does not already exist given that Indira Gandhi used to complain about foreign interference.

Policy and infrastructure about the internet will also need to be looked at afresh because cutting off the internet as is done in trouble spots today is too blunt a tool. Such steps will negatively impact economic activity given the rise of remote work. An Indian firewall similar to the Chinese one needs to be put in place to allow citizens to work or watch Netflix while allowing security concerns to be addressed.

there was a recent incident at AMU where thay got a turki prof to address them on khilafat and thereafter some discussions may have ensued.

this raised quite a hue and cry with lots of people mouthing off.

turns out that the AMU guys know their onions and they had applied in advance to the UGC, GoI and what not and got all the required permissions before they went ahead did the dirty.

no firewall can protect against this sort of stupidity by the authorities

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 21 Aug 2020 10:10

Suraj wrote:
vera_k wrote:India needs its own version of FARA. Its surprising (or instructive!) that this does not already exist given that Indira Gandhi used to complain about foreign interference.

Policy and infrastructure about the internet will also need to be looked at afresh because cutting off the internet as is done in trouble spots today is too blunt a tool. Such steps will negatively impact economic activity given the rise of remote work. An Indian firewall similar to the Chinese one needs to be put in place to allow citizens to work or watch Netflix while allowing security concerns to be addressed.
Yes FARA is a very good template in this context . A culture of required disclosure and transparency is necessary here . One of the worlds biggest nations cannot have it’s opposition head - however immature he may be - disappear out of public sight and deal with external powers with absolutely no oversight by domestic intelligence and interaction with policymakers of the elected government . That simply continues centuries of sordid history involving consorting with external enemies against a domestic rival .

It should be brought before the house and passed like the abbrogation of art 370 was done. Swift, decisive and deftly passed before the congis, commies naxals and minorities raise a needless hue and cry.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 21 Aug 2020 12:07

Another reason for a legislatively driven solution is that formal law brings with it the ability to conduct legal proceedings and apply perjury clauses where a single statement can be disproven. Without laws, everything is hearsay and in the domain of informal mudslinging. Further, these also become within the purview of RTI disclosure.

In any other country, an opposition leader disappearing for weeks and interacting with governments and government agents of potential hostile powers would result in major scandal. That would be like the Democrat house leader or the Labour Party head heading to Moscow or Beijing for consultations, which all remain private in terms of content and details of whom they associated with. When such disclosure is a legally binding requirement of all members of registered national parties, a lot of things become more formalized.

Separately, in addition to data localization laws, GoI needs to push more strongly in its effort to develop a domestic social media ecosystem. A nation of India's size and might cannot be dependent on Twitter, Whatsapp and Facebook. It has to be a local platform integrated with local technologies like UPI for payments, and more.

kit · Post by **kit** » 21 Aug 2020 12:54

Kamala Harris is the worst news for India anyway you look at it.

kit · Post by **kit** » 21 Aug 2020 12:58

darshan wrote:US Elections: Why Kamala Harris Is Not Good For India’s Long-Term Interests
https://swarajyamag.com/videos/us-elect ... -interests

https://youtu.be/3mN4yFPv0Cg

Hankering After Harris: Why Indians Must Be Shaken Off The Delusion
https://swarajyamag.com/blogs/hankering ... e-delusion

just look at who Harris is hobbling with above

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 21 Aug 2020 20:56

Mort Walker wrote:
Suraj wrote: Further, the only tools to ensure correct behavior are blunt ones like anti-treason and sedition laws. Those have a place, but their repeated use simply makes them toothless. They are intended to be applied in cases where the person goes in to face capital punishment or life imprisonment for high treason.
The problem is that SSM is not just a former minister in any cabinet position. He was NSA involved in the territorial integrity of India. What he published is a national security risk which gives credence to India's enemies like the UNPA. At a minimum, SSM's passport, and his immediate family's, should be invalidated until he gives an explanation to the government and parliament.

People like Shampoo Boy, and Mani Shanker Aiyer are really loudmouths who never were in any real position of authority in previous governments.

Under what law could they do it? (Invalidate passports, that too of family members). India is a democracy, governed by laws. Any Court would throw it out.
I think it would be hard to craft a new law (which anyway won’t apply retroactively to this case) that covers a national security official, who, after retirement, expresses the view that India’s national security doesn’t matter to them at all.

Such individuals are supposed to be weeded out by the selection process. The right response (aside from rebuttals, ridicule, etc.and maybe extracting a social cost—I am sure the man has clubs whose membership he values, e.g., and he & family better not be caugt speeding, ever) should be to review the selection and training process, which is rotten.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 21 Aug 2020 21:08

^^^It would be modeled after FARA in the US. However, there is nothing the government has put forth at this time. I don’t think they’re thinking about it at this time. SSM’s passport should be invalidated until government gives clearance.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 21 Aug 2020 21:21

Yesterday Jihadi Joe refered to Kamala Harris as “South Asian American”. I find this term misleading and offensive, but also deliberately denies the Indian origin aspect.

There are 3.8 million Indian origin people in the US. Pakistani, over 0.5 million and Bangladeshi over 0.21 million.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 21 Aug 2020 21:26

KLNMurthy wrote:Under what law could they do it? (Invalidate passports, that too of family members). India is a democracy, governed by laws. Any Court would throw it out.
I think it would be hard to craft a new law (which anyway won’t apply retroactively to this case) that covers a national security official, who, after retirement, expresses the view that India’s national security doesn’t matter to them at all.

Such individuals are supposed to be weeded out by the selection process. The right response (aside from rebuttals, ridicule, etc.and maybe extracting a social cost—I am sure the man has clubs whose membership he values, e.g., and he & family better not be caugt speeding, ever) should be to review the selection and training process, which is rotten.

This isn't a question of fundamental rights. In fact, the reason fundamental rights are even being raised in this context is that the extent of Indian law only has two extremes here - fundamental rights and on the other end treason and sedition laws. The latter in any case need overhaul - they are colonial era fossils.

Agents of the government face restrictions on how and why they engage with agents of foreign powers. This is a fairly standard setup for any powerful country. There are explicit laws about it, like FARA. These laws offer the power to force disclosure. By making it required legal procedure, the failure to disclose, the act of disclosing provably false information ("I didn't meet X" vs "here's the video of you meeting X") and other details all become legal procedure. Right now it is all ad hoc with no basis. Further, RTI enables lay citizenry to request this information and file PILs.

The first step in having a formalized process is to have a legal reporting requirement by law. It does not have to be a perfect law, and can be amended anytime. Strength of institutional structure comes from having laws that ensure activities of the state are managed, and there's no scope for any Mir Jafar or Shuja ud Daula to wander off to DC or Geneva or Bangkok as and when they desire without consequence.

Laws like these are simply a basis to further build the structure of being a nation of laws, and not a system of patronage; right now actions like SSM's are simply acts that reinforce the maintenance of the external network of patronage. There's no problem with him talking to someone. However that has to be all on the record, backed by compliance with official law, and subject to any penalties the law may impose.

A far more simple restriction people might be familiar with is that an employee can't speak to the press. Only the authorized agents in the PR department can. This doesn't contravene fundamental rights. Government agents face similar restrictions. The purpose of law is to formalize it.

mappunni · Post by **mappunni** » 21 Aug 2020 22:02

Posted with no comments

"Indian" Kamala, Biden and US Elections With Abhijit Iyer-Mitra

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 21 Aug 2020 23:40

Suraj wrote:Separately, in addition to data localization laws, GoI needs to push more strongly in its effort to develop a domestic social media ecosystem. A nation of India's size and might cannot be dependent on Twitter, Whatsapp and Facebook. It has to be a local platform integrated with local technologies like UPI for payments, and more.

My point about needing some type of firewall was more in relation to the difficulty of justifying Internet shutdowns. While these have been targeted by US politicians, and possibly will be more of an issue if a Biden administration comes to pass, the Supreme Court has also come down against allowing Internet shutdowns. The solution may be as simple as allowing monitored VPN access when the Internet is shut down, but there has to be some solution to allow people to work from their home and take part in economic activity if security reasons necessitate an Internet shutdown.

Access to internet is a fundamental right, says Supreme Court

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 22 Aug 2020 00:18

That is a flow of information issue. Having independent SM companies is about ownership - including ownership of responsibility from a judicial perspective. Right now, FB et al can always punt arguments towards their global standards on something like 'hate speech', whatever those are. Further, they can and will argue that those fall within only the purview of US law, and not Indian law.

An Indian company run out of India, subject to Indian law has both the responsibility of following that law, and free access to 1.3 billion people and their SM presence. It tilts power in favor of the Indian organization, with anyone including FB being outside the tent, unable to claim 'yeah we're only subject to US law and you follow our rules regarding hate speech - we can't set up different frameworks in all nations'. To compel that of them requires control over the SM world.

The firewall you quote can also make FB inaccessible, which wouldn't matter if Indian SM presence is primarily on a local platform, 'inside the tent' so to speak. The Chinese understood the implications of this early on and built both their domestic SM presence and a firewall.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 22 Aug 2020 02:11

Mort Walker wrote:Yesterday Jihadi Joe refered to Kamala Harris as “South Asian American”. I find this term misleading and offensive, but also deliberately denies the Indian origin aspect.

There are 3.8 million Indian origin people in the US. Pakistani, over 0.5 million and Bangladeshi over 0.21 million.

“South Asian” when used for a 50% Tamil Mami is packed with a whole lot of meaning.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 22 Aug 2020 07:30

chetak wrote:As always, the professor has got it absolutely right

Jayapal is not tamizh but malayali. FYI

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 22 Aug 2020 07:43

KLNMurthy wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:Yesterday Jihadi Joe refered to Kamala Harris as “South Asian American”. I find this term misleading and offensive, but also deliberately denies the Indian origin aspect.

There are 3.8 million Indian origin people in the US. Pakistani, over 0.5 million and Bangladeshi over 0.21 million.
“South Asian” when used for a 50% Tamil Mami is packed with a whole lot of meaning.

mylapore tamil iyer maami is more precise

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 22 Aug 2020 07:48

Suraj wrote:That is a flow of information issue. Having independent SM companies is about ownership - including ownership of responsibility from a judicial perspective. Right now, FB et al can always punt arguments towards their global standards on something like 'hate speech', whatever those are. Further, they can and will argue that those fall within only the purview of US law, and not Indian law.

An Indian company run out of India, subject to Indian law has both the responsibility of following that law, and free access to 1.3 billion people and their SM presence. It tilts power in favor of the Indian organization, with anyone including FB being outside the tent, unable to claim 'yeah we're only subject to US law and you follow our rules regarding hate speech - we can't set up different frameworks in all nations'. To compel that of them requires control over the SM world.

The firewall you quote can also make FB inaccessible, which wouldn't matter if Indian SM presence is primarily on a local platform, 'inside the tent' so to speak. The Chinese understood the implications of this early on and built both their domestic SM presence and a firewall.

If we passed a law like trump had envisaged earlier, declaring facebook, twitter, tiktok whatever as a "publisher" wouldn't that give us better control over these guys to ensure that they followed Indian laws

This could be done under the existing IT laws by ammendment.

trump was constrained because of a hostile congress/senate but we are not

nandakumar · Post by **nandakumar** » 22 Aug 2020 10:17

I have never understood this 'platform' concept. Whether you are a platform or content creator in the original it matters little. You are responsible for what appears in an asset owned by you. By this 'platform ' logic a newspaper can take the plea that it is not responsible for any scurrilous writing by Prashant Bhushan. Even the argument that it is difficult to monitor what flows through it, is not very convincing. A tax law may be burdensome. But that doesn't exempt the taxpayers from paying taxes on income lawfully assessed.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 22 Aug 2020 10:49

That is a consequence of US law, specifically Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act . This indemnifies the underlying website or host from legal penalties associated with anything indecent, libelous or illegal posted online their websites. In fact the Trump administration has targeted this law in an effort to control the transmission of news and communication on SM.

India doesn’t have such a law, but needs one treating SM services the same as conventional publishers, striking a balance between enabling a domestic SM ecosystem to grow, enable authorities to work with these entities to identify those who post such material and without the kind of sweeping freedoms Sec 230 offers.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 22 Aug 2020 12:22

Mort Walker wrote:Passing legislation even with a majority in the lower house is a game of give and take. There are 81 other bills which are in the queue (several have passed), of which, 11 involve Home Affairs. I would argue action be taken now under existing law, and then craft a decent law (the enemy of the good should not be the perfect) and put it in the queue.

https://mpa.gov.in/bills-list

Agreed. How hard would it be for a team of legal eagles led by Harsh Salve types to find some long forgotten british vestige of a law that allows for action against such people. We are talking about an NSA here - not some aam aadmi type big mouth.

nandakumar · Post by **nandakumar** » 22 Aug 2020 15:29

Suraj wrote:That is a consequence of US law, specifically Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act . This indemnifies the underlying website or host from legal penalties associated with anything indecent, libelous or illegal posted online their websites. In fact the Trump administration has targeted this law in an effort to control the transmission of news and communication on SM.

India doesn’t have such a law, but needs one treating SM services the same as conventional publishers, striking a balance between enabling a domestic SM ecosystem to grow, enable authorities to work with these entities to identify those who post such material and without the kind of sweeping freedoms Sec 230 offers.

Thanks. That does clarify things.

Haresh · Post by **Haresh** » 24 Aug 2020 19:41

With a word of Tamil, Kamala Harris boosts her fanbase in India

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... e-in-india

ShyamSP · Post by **ShyamSP** » 25 Aug 2020 03:52

Haresh wrote:With a word of Tamil, Kamala Harris boosts her fanbase in India

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... e-in-india

If Kamala was Republican or Hindu, the Chithis would be Brahminical Aryans suppressing Dalits and lower castes in Tamilnadu. Media twists and turns anything to suit their narrative.

banrjeer · Post by **banrjeer** » 25 Aug 2020 10:36

schinnas wrote:It is truly Divine Grace that India is still together and marching forward despite such a treasonous person occupying the role of NSA and literally dictating strategic polity to the weak PM.

the saving grace is that while they are excellent highly skilled parasites, they come from a system with no standing and purchasing power. This has limited their leverage/reach.

As the Indian economy grows they will become increasingly dangerous and need to be exterminated right in the beginning.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 27 Aug 2020 17:52

Jayapal said that she was born in Chennai or TN some where. So most likely Tamil. Not that it makes any difference.

Whether it is Labour in UK or Dems in US, the left parties are by nature now Jihadi passand.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 27 Aug 2020 20:13

Yagnasri wrote:Jayapal said that she was born in Chennai or TN some where. So most likely Tamil. Not that it makes any difference.

Whether it is Labour in UK or Dems in US, the left parties are by nature now Jihadi passand.

Yagnasri garu,

someone in an earlier post said that jayapal was malayali and that may well be true.

maybe someone more knowledgeable could corroborate.

per wiki

Jayapal was born in Madras (since renamed Chennai), India to Maya Jayapal, a writer, and MP Jayapal, a marketing professional. She spent most of her childhood in Indonesia and Singapore.[6][7] She immigrated to the United States in 1982, at the age of 16, to attend college.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 27 Aug 2020 20:38

chetak wrote:

someone in an earlier post said that jayapal was malayali and that may well be true.

Not knowledgeable; she is Malayali.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 27 Aug 2020 20:50

VinodTK wrote:
chetak wrote:

someone in an earlier post said that jayapal was malayali and that may well be true.

Not knowledgeable; she is Malayali.

sorry. No offence.

that was badly phrased. My bad.

I was merely seeking corroboration. Didn't come out as intended.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 28 Aug 2020 02:22

Suraj wrote:The firewall you quote can also make FB inaccessible, which wouldn't matter if Indian SM presence is primarily on a local platform, 'inside the tent' so to speak. The Chinese understood the implications of this early on and built both their domestic SM presence and a firewall.

Another factor to be taken into account is that 99% of the Chinese do not understand (read/write) English. We in India are proud of our English. That is a double-edged sword in that FB or other SM platforms don't have to localize anything. After entering, they have localized now. But they are already the biggest players in India.
(OT, so I will stop)

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 28 Aug 2020 06:26

BTW I was reading that PRC/CCP fired some dong dong missiles in the South China Sea, were these aimed at USN ships there and they missed like other Chinese maal or were the aimed at some non specific area in the SCS ? Either ways, it is puppy shame to the USN and hope they react appropriately(beyond lame visa and entry bans to some CCPers)