Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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nachiket
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by nachiket »

Aditya_V wrote:We are not assuming , it to be short range, imagine 100km away, IR Astra is launched 2 way datalink and launching aircraft not actively pinging and setting off alarms in the Target aircraft, which does not know missile is inbound, 10-15Km away passive IIR seeker activates and destroys the target, the F16 realises it only when it blows up- would be a real dream come true. PAF will refuse to take off.
This is similar to how the MICA-IR works (although with a one-way datalink) but it will have a shorter max range than the proposed IR Astra I would guess. The R-27ET has the long range but no guidance before the IR sensor acquires the target. It is just launched in the direction of the target and the sensor will acquire it when in range as long as the missile is pointed within 15 degrees of the target bearing. Both missiles are in service with the IAF.

The R-27 is simpler and less capable but the launching aircraft's radar does not have to track the target and provide mid-course guidance. In the case of the MICA and Astra the radar will be doing that. Even in TWS mode, it is possible that the target can get some idea of what could be happening depending on the sophistication of its RWR.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Indranil »

I think I have come across the dimensions of the QRSAM for the first time. Sharing them here:

Length: 4.364 m
Diameter: 0.20 m
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Varoon Shekhar »

There was a Notam issued about a week back of an impending( Aug 20-22) missile/ vehicle test by India. Here's hoping that it is Drdo's Hstdv, and that this time, the test is unambiguously successful! :-)
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by nam »

I hope they integrate Astra IR in to AWACS grid. Netra tracks target with S band, pass it on to LCA/Su30, which does a silent launch and Netra is providing constant position update to the missile through the fighter.

It will one heck of a passive targetting. It will get more fascinating once we roll out IR version of SFDR.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

ks_sachin wrote:
Karan M wrote:
DRDO's BFSR was provided to the infantry. Its called BFSR-SR. An upgraded version is now available called BFSR-XR. The DRDO BFSR-SR has been upgraded by some pvt guys for automatic target recognition etc. No idea whether IA picked it up. It also comes with an integrated TI to correlate the targets picked up and image them.

The R&S units operate the BFSR-MR. This is an Elta unit which is mounted on tall masts. Its license manufactured at BEL.

These systems are easily a decade old and due for an upgrade. Question is whether IA has asked BEL to do so, or even approached Elta.
Karan this video featuring 17th Guards has the details of the BFSR-MR.

Also the screen that ParGha was mentioning.

https://youtu.be/Hxx_JSgNyT4
This is the BFSR MR and the screen looks like a fairly up to date displaying a GIS - no idea where his description of a bad visual experience is coming from. Even the SR can do the same, and also has a simplified display mode too.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/Aer ... R.jpg.html
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by tsarkar »

What is the reliability of this tweet? Is he seeing the fake images floating around on twitter and decides to make a post based on that?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Aditya_V »

Possible, without corroborative evidence all news on Twitter is fake.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by mody »

Can the IR MICA be guided by the IRST on the Rafale? Likewise I thought the R-27T was capable of being provided the initial guidance from the IRST on the Mig-29 and Su-30?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by jaysimha »

Not sure being posted here ( MBD-if-RP)

https://sputniknews.com/india/202002131 ... ace-chief/

BrahMos to Test Airborne Early Warning Aircraft Killer Missile Soon - Aerospace Chief
14:35 GMT 13.02.2020
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

Aditya_V wrote:Possible, without corroborative evidence all news on Twitter is fake.
Reported by at least two credible folks. Astra IR program most likely exists.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Cain Marko »

mody wrote:Can the IR MICA be guided by the IRST on the Rafale? Likewise I thought the R-27T was capable of being provided the initial guidance from the IRST on the Mig-29 and Su-30?
I thought irst can only provide guidance via lrf at very short distances - less than 5km. Long ranged shots are probly managed via FCR guidance and updates. In case of rafale, there is probably that spectra provides necessary data and therefore allows completely passive attacks. One of its major USPs.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Indranil »

Spectra is just a unified suite of self defense sensors and countermeasures. It is not used for missile guidance.

On Mica IR the terminal guidance is through IR.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

Indranil wrote:Spectra is just a unified suite of self defense sensors and countermeasures. It is not used for missile guidance.

On Mica IR the terminal guidance is through IR.
Spectra is used to finetune missile guidance measurements (minimal use of radar), but also allows for over the shoulder shots via Mica (exact range not specified), though its IR indicates its mostly used in a WVR fashion.
During our assessments, we performed BVR and WVR engagements with the Mirage 2000 C RDI (analyzed in more detail in Part 3 of this test), where we had the opportunity to confirm the combination of the sensibility of SPECTRA EW with the all-aspect launching and target acquisition of MICA IR. This allowed us to designate the target from any source (EM / IR / Laser Threat Detection - Electromagnetic Threat Detection / Infrared / Laser), when the security bubble around the Rafale was invad-ed, and to execute the missile launch “over the shoulder.” Over the shoulder means that a MICA can be fired at a target located at position six o’clock (behind the aircraft) without changing flight direction.
In addition to these piloting protections regarding the safe operation of a high perfor-mance aircraft, the Rafale gives us the feeling of flying in a shielded bubble. The SPECTRA suite of internal Electronic Warfare, developed by Thales and MBDA in-corporates situational awareness features and warning to a large range of different spectral hazards. More than ‘merely’ protection, it puts the pilot out ahead of threats with the benefit of the needed time to make the best decision. SPECTRA also integrates the Data Fusion of the Rafale, and allows the locking on to a threat, so in turnabout, the threat becomes the target. See the examples in engagements with the Mirage 2000 C RDI in Part 3.
https://www.defesanet.com.br/rafale/not ... fference-/
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

Cain Marko wrote:
mody wrote:Can the IR MICA be guided by the IRST on the Rafale? Likewise I thought the R-27T was capable of being provided the initial guidance from the IRST on the Mig-29 and Su-30?
I thought irst can only provide guidance via lrf at very short distances - less than 5km. Long ranged shots are probly managed via FCR guidance and updates. In case of rafale, there is probably that spectra provides necessary data and therefore allows completely passive attacks. One of its major USPs.
Ranging is an issue for a completely ESM only driven attack. Would likely need multiple Rafales to share information for location fix and that too not easy in a dynamic scenario.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by kit »

Karan M wrote:
Indranil wrote:Spectra is just a unified suite of self defense sensors and countermeasures. It is not used for missile guidance.

On Mica IR the terminal guidance is through IR.
Spectra is used to finetune missile guidance measurements (minimal use of radar), but also allows for over the shoulder shots via Mica (exact range not specified), though its IR indicates its mostly used in a WVR fashion.
During our assessments, we performed BVR and WVR engagements with the Mirage 2000 C RDI (analyzed in more detail in Part 3 of this test), where we had the opportunity to confirm the combination of the sensibility of SPECTRA EW with the all-aspect launching and target acquisition of MICA IR. This allowed us to designate the target from any source (EM / IR / Laser Threat Detection - Electromagnetic Threat Detection / Infrared / Laser), when the security bubble around the Rafale was invad-ed, and to execute the missile launch “over the shoulder.” Over the shoulder means that a MICA can be fired at a target located at position six o’clock (behind the aircraft) without changing flight direction.
In addition to these piloting protections regarding the safe operation of a high perfor-mance aircraft, the Rafale gives us the feeling of flying in a shielded bubble. The SPECTRA suite of internal Electronic Warfare, developed by Thales and MBDA in-corporates situational awareness features and warning to a large range of different spectral hazards. More than ‘merely’ protection, it puts the pilot out ahead of threats with the benefit of the needed time to make the best decision. SPECTRA also integrates the Data Fusion of the Rafale, and allows the locking on to a threat, so in turnabout, the threat becomes the target. See the examples in engagements with the Mirage 2000 C RDI in Part 3.
https://www.defesanet.com.br/rafale/not ... fference-/
Spectra can do a stealth mode with active radar cancellation?

http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php ... 0detected.

Our colleagues at Air & Cosmos report that the French government is funding a demonstration of improved stealth technology for the Dassault Rafale fighter, with a focus on active cancellation techniques. The story itself is not online but is being discussed at the Key Military Forum.

Dassault

Active cancellation means preventing a radar from detecting a target by firing back a deception signal with the same frequency as the reflection, but precisely one-half wavelength out of phase with it. Result: the returned energy reaching the radar has no frequency and can't be detected.

It's quite as difficult as it sounds. Some reports have suggested that the so called SP-3 or ZSR-62 "radar jamming device" planned in the early days of the B-2 program was an active cancellation system. It did not work and was scrapped in 1987-88. In 2005, Northrop Grumman paid $62 million to settle a False Claims Act case involving the system.

This may not be the first French attempt to implement AC on the Rafale. At the Paris air show in 1997, I interviewed a senior engineer at what was then Dassault Electronique, about the Rafale's Spectra jamming system. He remarked that Spectra used "stealthy jamming modes that not only have a saturating effect, but make the aircraft invisible... There are some very specific techniques to obtain the signature of a real LO aircraft."

"You mean active cancellation?" I asked. The engineer suddenly looked like someone who deeply regretted what he had just said, and declined any further comment. (As Hobbes once put it after pouncing on an unsuspecting Calvin: "We tigers live for moments like that."*)

The fact that a new demonstrator is being contemplated suggests that the technology may not have been up to the job the first time round - but since AC depends on electronics and processing, that picture may have changed. MBDA and Thales, which absorbed Dassault Electronique and is now the prime contractor on Spectra, have since confirmed that they are working on active cancellation for missiles.

The whole Spectra program has been a major venture, including the construction of four new indoor test ranges, including the colossal Solange RCS range discussed in Ares in 2007. That facility will probably play a major role in the new demonstrator program.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Indranil »

Karan, thanks for the information. Certainly news to me. But launching at a target in the hind quarters by piecing together threat perceptions: How accurate can that launch be? And as you said, how far off could the target be. Certainly not BVR ranges.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

Well it will work best if the opponent radar is emitting. In which case it can provide reasonable range. Ideally would give you a bearing fix on the target, and the radar would range.

If the MAWS on the Rafale is of the imaging kind and it detects targets at reasonable ranges, might work passive too. But WVR only.

For long ranges, dynamically figuring out range passively is a pain for both ESM and IRST on a single platform (you want to triangulate or have widely spaced sensors, hard to do so on a compact fighter) - the PIRATE on the EF claims to have something possible, but its not as perfect anyday as a quick radar fix.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

kit wrote: Spectra can do a stealth mode with active radar cancellation?

http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php ... 0detected.

Our colleagues at Air & Cosmos report that the French government is funding a demonstration of improved stealth technology for the Dassault Rafale fighter, with a focus on active cancellation techniques. The story itself is not online but is being discussed at the Key Military Forum.

Dassault

Active cancellation means preventing a radar from detecting a target by firing back a deception signal with the same frequency as the reflection, but precisely one-half wavelength out of phase with it. Result: the returned energy reaching the radar has no frequency and can't be detected.
Has never been confirmed and I would be surprised if it had anything like that.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Cain Marko »

Karan M wrote:Ranging is an issue for a completely ESM only driven attack. Would likely need multiple Rafales to share information for location fix and that too not easy in a dynamic scenario.
Indranil wrote:Karan, thanks for the information. Certainly news to me. But launching at a target in the hind quarters by piecing together threat perceptions: How accurate can that launch be? And as you said, how far off could the target be. Certainly not BVR ranges.
I believe the French have worked to get some kind of solution for passive attacks at bvr ranges, at least they advertised this passive "discrete" ability for the longest time..
The outstanding capability of SPECTRA regarding airborne threat localisation, is one of the keys of the Rafale’s superior situational awareness.
My guess is that it works best when the opponent is emitting. And probably in a networked scenario with multiple Rafale providing input. Another possibility is that the spectra is used to cue the fso:
At the same time, with both of us completely head-in and on TF autopilot, Nino locked up and the FSO TV identified airliners 10,000ft above us, and used the Spectra RWR to cue the FSO TV to do the same against a passing Mirage 2000 on a low-level mission.
From: https://www.flightglobal.com/flight-tes ... 47.article

It makes no sense that you design a fighter otherwise with a tiny nose/radar, and stick it with an iir missile with long ranges. Afaik no other CCM has mica range. They could've simply done another typhoon or stuck with that program.

Of course this is speculation on my part...
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Cain Marko »

Karan M wrote:
kit wrote: Spectra can do a stealth mode with active radar cancellation?
Has never been confirmed and I would be surprised if it had anything like that.
More on this on the f3r: avweek via keypubs
French industry sources say that during operations over Libya in 2011, Rafale literally disappeared from the radar screens of the Libyan air force, performing “soft kills” on enemy radar systems [already related in one of the lastest issue of FOX3].

Bruno Carrara, director of the Rafale program at Thales, says the F3-R upgrade will involve a more advanced electromagnetic detection capability based on new digital wide-band-receiver technologies, improving the suite’s spectrum analysis as well as its instantaneous interception capability.

Thales will also update Spectra’s solid-state jamming subsystem, which was one of the first to use electronically steered phased-array antennas. Carrara says for F3R, Spectra will include more powerful antennas, while further increasing the power supply so that more threats can be jammed simultaneously. Like Saab, Thales will use GaN technology because of its power and efficiency.

Since the late 1990s, Spectra’s designers have dropped hints that the system can perform “active cancellation”—receiving a radar signal and mimicking the aircraft’s echo exactly one-half wavelength out of phase so the radar sees nothing.

Carrara again implies that such a capability is in use: “There are other strategies, such as generating signals that will encompass or be higher than the echo from the aircraft, so that the radar threat will receive a signal that will mask the echo from the aircraft,” Carrara says. “Instead of creating a false echo and drawing the radar to the wrong place, the idea is to produce a signal that will mask the echo of the aircraft, so the radar will be unable to detect the aircraft Spectra is protecting.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Kakarat »

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Thakur_B »

kit wrote:
Spectra can do a stealth mode with active radar cancellation?

http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php ... 0detected.
The active cancellation works by mimicing the incoming radar waves and retransmitting them out of phase against the reflected waves, sort of how noise cancelling headphones work, confusing the enemy radar. This ofcourse works only with very primitive radars only.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by tsarkar »

During our assessments, we performed BVR and WVR engagements with the Mirage 2000 C RDI (analyzed in more detail in Part 3 of this test), where we had the opportunity to confirm the combination of the sensibility of SPECTRA EW with the all-aspect launching and target acquisition of MICA IR. This allowed us to designate the target from any source (EM / IR / Laser Threat Detection - Electromagnetic Threat Detection / Infrared / Laser), when the security bubble around the Rafale was invad-ed, and to execute the missile launch “over the shoulder.” Over the shoulder means that a MICA can be fired at a target located at position six o’clock (behind the aircraft) without changing flight direction.
The capability of hitting a target at six o’clock (behind the aircraft) without changing flight direction exists with HMDS as well.

During Vayu Shakti 99, the older and now returned Su-30K fired a R-73 using HMDS that did a 180 degree flip.

Discussed in 2010 on this forum viewtopic.php?t=4042&start=1520

Member Shiv had taken the videos with a great deal of effort and posted them on Bharat Rakshak. Sadly the videos have disappeared.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/CLIPS/
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/CLIPS/vs-sukhois.mpg
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by tsarkar »

Karan M wrote:Reported by at least two credible folks. Astra IR program most likely exists.
Who are these two credible folks?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Kartik »

Indranil wrote:I think I have come across the dimensions of the QRSAM for the first time. Sharing them here:

Length: 4.364 m
Diameter: 0.20 m
Is there any update on it's status? Things seemed to have gone a bit quiet on the QRSAM front after the successful test firings.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Kartik »

tsarkar wrote:
Karan M wrote:Reported by at least two credible folks. Astra IR program most likely exists.
Who are these two credible folks?
One of them is Grp Cpt HVT.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by tsarkar »

Kartik wrote:
tsarkar wrote:Who are these two credible folks?
One of them is Grp Cpt HVT.
Interesting. I didnt find any reference to the IR program in the request for grants for funding, hence asked.

The latest reliable update I read on the program was from March 2020 -

http://164.100.47.193/lsscommittee/Defe ... ence_6.pdf
Improved version of Astra with enhanced-kill-range and no-escape-zone are now under development.
Please note that the two phrases - enhanced-kill-range and no-escape-zone.

In the LCA thread, I had made a post on Probability of Kill being more important when others were arguing for greater number of missiles carried.

The submission to the Lok Sabha Standing Committee on Defence precisely speaks about improving PK.

Do we have any FPA available, either in development or under ToT for the IR missile?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Raghunathgb »

https://www.issuewire.com/india-ready-t ... 5094079904
India ready to test Hypersonic Glide Vehicle
HGV-202F an indigenously developed Hypersonic Glide Vehicle by HTNP Industries is prepared to conduct it's first Hypersonic test which was being delayed amid Coronavirus pandemic.
HGV-202F by HTNP Industries
Akola, Aug 12, 2020 (Issuewire.com) - The invisible threat of Coronavirus pulled up dark clouds over Hypersonic testing of it's Hypersonic Glide Vehicle (HGV) HGV-202F that have been developed by Indian defense StartUp HTNP Industries.


Warhead was set to test under the supervision of respective government organizations in June but has to be postponed till the situation normalizes.

The co-founder and CEO of HTNP Industries, Shantanu Gawande have yet to clarify the test schedule of HGV but is expected to do it soon in this month. The HGV is being developed by the Advanced Hypersonic department of HTNP Industries in HTNP Industries's Material Science and Engineering lab (MSEL). HTNP Industries CSO Saurav Chaudhari did said about the progress of HGV and its glide path.

HGV-202F is HTNP Industries's ambitious project to develop the country's first HGV. Following Russian Avangard, Chinese DF-ZF and US's Common Hypersonic Glide Body (C-HGB), HGV-202 is faster and has better accuracy than Chinese DF-ZF.

This test of HGV-202F is about the maneuverability of the Warhead at Hypersonic conditions.

The MSEL has issued a set of guidelines for their scientists and other staff on the prevention of coronavirus infection. As part of precautionary measures, bio-metric attendance has been stopped and priority is being given on complete sanitation of surfaces frequently used by staff.

Meetings and discussions are being done through video conferencing on Skype to ensure the safety of staff and to prevent the spread of Coronavirus. All necessary precautions and guidelines are being followed by the company and its labs.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Karan M »

Cain Marko wrote:My guess is that it works best when the opponent is emitting. And probably in a networked scenario with multiple Rafale providing input. Another possibility is that the spectra is used to cue the fso:
At the same time, with both of us completely head-in and on TF autopilot, Nino locked up and the FSO TV identified airliners 10,000ft above us, and used the Spectra RWR to cue the FSO TV to do the same against a passing Mirage 2000 on a low-level mission.
From: https://www.flightglobal.com/flight-tes ... 47.article
This is WVR stuff. What Indranil was pointing to was BVR. In BVR you need range. For ranging you need dynamic position fixes from widely separated sensors. These could be RWRs or IRSTs. And then you need a system onboard to dynamically correlate in real time, triangulate. Its not easy.
It makes no sense that you design a fighter otherwise with a tiny nose/radar, and stick it with an iir missile with long ranges. Afaik no other CCM has mica range. They could've simply done another typhoon or stuck with that program.

Of course this is speculation on my part...
The tiny nose part needs to be seen in context. Per most fighter standards, a 1000+ module AESA is not tiny but reasonable. The current RBE-2 AESA gets a decent range performance per published performance equal or superior to what's been published about the SABR on the Viper. The EF Typhoon has a larger nose & a higher performance radar for sure, and so do the F-15C/E's seeing upgrade, but the RBE-2 AESA is not a slouch.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Nalla Baalu »

Saar, are you sure of authenticity of this content/company? Cursory look at content of its 'website' and profiles of the 'employees' do not inspire confidence that its a startup ready to test a HGV.
Raghunathgb wrote:https://www.issuewire.com/india-ready-t ... 5094079904
India ready to test Hypersonic Glide Vehicle
HGV-202F an indigenously developed Hypersonic Glide Vehicle by HTNP Industries is prepared to conduct it's first Hypersonic test which was being delayed amid Coronavirus pandemic.
HGV-202F by HTNP Industries

...

Warhead was set to test under the supervision of respective government organizations in June but has to be postponed till the situation normalizes.

The co-founder and CEO of HTNP Industries, Shantanu Gawande have yet to clarify the test schedule of HGV but is expected to do it soon in this month. The HGV is being developed by the Advanced Hypersonic department of HTNP Industries in HTNP Industries's Material Science and Engineering lab (MSEL). HTNP Industries CSO Saurav Chaudhari did said about the progress of HGV and its glide
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Raghunathgb »

Nalla Baalu wrote:Saar, are you sure of authenticity of this content/company? Cursory look at content of its 'website' and profiles of the 'employees' do not inspire confidence that its a startup ready to test a HGV.
I just passed on the link I found out in Twitter. Not sure on authenticity.
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Vips »

Per an AV report Russia is using Scramjet engine of Zircon missile for developing the Hypersonic version of Brahmos. Speed of Mach 6.5 has been achieved!!!
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by vivek_ahuja »

The year is 2020 now. I was checking the notes from the Chimera scenarios thread to see what Indian military tech predictions have materialized and what died on the wine through the years. Reading through this thread I got lost and confused about this one, so posing the question here: is the Nirbhay missile still in trials? Or have I missed some shocking news of its acceptance? Or has it been replaced in concept?

The snail pace in getting hold of a long-range cruise missile is a major handicap and it is not clear to me what the proposed solution to that is.

P.S.: This is not a troll. I am genuinely curious about this!
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by Cain Marko »

vivek_ahuja wrote:The year is 2020 now. I was checking the notes from the Chimera scenarios thread to see what Indian military tech predictions have materialized and what died on the wine through the years. Reading through this thread I got lost and confused about this one, so posing the question here: is the Nirbhay missile still in trials? Or have I missed some shocking news of its acceptance? Or has it been replaced in concept?

The snail pace in getting hold of a long-range cruise missile is a major handicap and it is not clear to me what the proposed solution to that is.

P.S.: This is not a troll. I am genuinely curious about this!
The program was scrapped and now has been resurrected under some other title iirc. Trials to begin in December....

In the meanwhile the only real lacm available is the bmos with a range extension of up to 800km. There is also the shaurya, India's event if the iskander with a range > 1500km
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by sum »

The program was scrapped and now has been resurrected under some other title iirc. Trials to begin in December....
Too many times has words like "imminent induction", "all hurdles passed" been used in the past which gave false hopes. So not sure what to make of this new funda of "resurrected under new name".
If the ADE is still in charge of this "new project" and hasnt been handed over to a better lab, the result is already known
In the meanwhile the only real lacm available is the bmos with a range extension of up to 800km. There is also the shaurya, India's event if the iskander with a range > 1500km
Is the Shaurya even operational?
Wasnt it scrapped due to lack of interest by forces?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by vivek_ahuja »

Cain Marko wrote:The program was scrapped and now has been resurrected under some other title iirc. Trials to begin in December....

In the meanwhile the only real lacm available is the bmos with a range extension of up to 800km. There is also the shaurya, India's event if the iskander with a range > 1500km
Did they publish what the name of the project is? All I see on google is news articles claiming India will buy the missiles from outside. I doubt that will happen.

If they did push this under a new project, my stupid question is: why?? Bureaucratic shuffling of project funds? Or technical reasons?

Either way, this does not bode well. I know some people claiming that either one of the hypersonic programs or a glide+ballistic hybrid-trajectory missiles will replace Nirbhay. But my personal opinion is that you will always need a slow-flying (and therefore highly maneuverable and long range) cruise missile with 1000+ km range.

Isn't the Shaurya a semi-ballistic missile? How is that going to work in a hot war without accidentally triggering a blatant ballistic missile exchange with China? Will the Chinese (or Pak) radar detecting these launches understand that these launches are in-lieu of cruise-missiles (because we don't have them) and not a nuclear launch? This is something I have never fully understood: with nuclear neighbors such as ours, how is a ballistic missile in any way a replacement for a conventional cruise missile?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by sum »

Isn't the Shaurya a semi-ballistic missile? How is that going to work in a hot war without accidentally triggering a blatant ballistic missile exchange with China? Will the Chinese (or Pak) radar detecting these launches understand that these launches are in-lieu of cruise-missiles (because we don't have them) and not a nuclear launch? This is something I have never fully understood: with nuclear neighbors such as ours, how is a ballistic missile in any way a replacement for a conventional cruise missile?
IIRC, this was reason for rejection by forces as use-case was unclear
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by vivek_ahuja »

sum wrote:
Isn't the Shaurya a semi-ballistic missile? How is that going to work in a hot war without accidentally triggering a blatant ballistic missile exchange with China? Will the Chinese (or Pak) radar detecting these launches understand that these launches are in-lieu of cruise-missiles (because we don't have them) and not a nuclear launch? This is something I have never fully understood: with nuclear neighbors such as ours, how is a ballistic missile in any way a replacement for a conventional cruise missile?
IIRC, this was reason for rejection by forces as use-case was unclear
Hence the question again: what is our replacement for the Nirbhay?

One candidate is the Brahmos-LR. 800 km will cover most of Tibet. What about rest of China? Also, for the 800 km range this missile has to fly high and straight. If it starts maneuvering at lower altitude, this range will disappear down to a few hundred km (or much less). The high-flying profile also makes it vulnerable to S-400 class defenses.

A Nirbhay maneuvering between the hills would be hard to kill. Do you know how many potential hills along a 1000+ km border that a long range missile could use to bypass the front-defenses of key areas?
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Post by SSridhar »

vivek_ahuja wrote:Isn't the Shaurya a semi-ballistic missile? How is that going to work in a hot war without accidentally triggering a blatant ballistic missile exchange with China? Will the Chinese (or Pak) radar detecting these launches understand that these launches are in-lieu of cruise-missiles (because we don't have them) and not a nuclear launch?
vivek_ahuja, China has over 1500 SRBMs with dual-capability. It has the same potential to trigger a similar exchange from India too. It is very difficult to classify an incoming missile, but certain things can help. For example, certain missile sites are known to be capable of firing missiles with nuclear warheads. A space-based or even a ground-based radar can detect where the missile is being fired from and classify accordingly. It was for this reason of ambiguity that India decided to eliminate its Prithvi-I SRBMs which were also similarly dual-role.
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