India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 01 Sep 2020 09:59

Interesting thread on twitter https://twitter.com/reportersujan/statu ... 2106620929

Making sense of the topography in which the clashes between the Indian and Chinese militaries happened on the night of August 29/30. Here goes:

The Pangong Tso is a boomerang-shaped lake. Like a wide 'V'. At it's east, often confused with the North because of its lay, are the fingers.

It is 135 kms long. Even in the western bank, the Chinese have held 90 kms.

The last Indian COB (Company Operating Base) is Thakung. It is an establishment share by both the army and the ITBP. The Chinese base is at Yula, where they also have a boatyard.

So Thakung and Yula are near the sharp depth of the "V". The face each other but they are not opposite to each other.

This is at a height of 14,000 feet and above. South of the Indian position of Thakung is Magar Hill. Across a valley, is Gurung Hill. Magar Hill is the end of the Ladakh Range. Gurung Hill is the beginning of the Kailash Range. In between is the Spanggur Gap.

In the Spanggur Gap, named after the Spanggur Tso, a little lake on the Chinese side, is a "Red Hut", the house on the Indian side that commanders have been meeting. Two kms from the Indian Red Hut is the Chinese "hut" where, too, the commanders meet to talk peace.

If India gets pushed out of the western bank of the Pangong Tso, the Chushul Valley could be lost. This is the same place as the Rezang La battle. Rezang La is touted as a heroic battle. It is a story of failure. Valour is a poor excuse for military failure.

This space has been widely and intensely surveyed by @rwac48

The mechanised infantry is probably the most mobile of Indian forces. The Indian Army needs to stand up if it believes that territorial integrity is its primary task.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 01 Sep 2020 10:01

k prasad wrote:
arshyam wrote: We shouldn't withdraw - isn't Black Top within our side of the LAC anyway? As long as there are differing perceptions of the LAC in the area (Pangong and points south), we should occupy and hold whatever we can. As Nitin Gokhale tweeted, the IA hasn't crossed the LAC, but occupied points to pre-empt PLA attempts to change the LAC. We should use that to our advantage. If those areas are within the Chinese perception of the LAC, too bad.
If it is on our side of the LAC, then hell yeah, hold it, keep it, man it! However, I'm referring to territory we have occupied beyond our perceived LAC as a tactical occupation for leverage, like we did in 2013 (which is what got the Chinese to finally get out of the Depsang area they were holding). That sort of occupation won't be publicized loudly, because leaving it will be hard to do once the public knows and clamours for us to hold it.

True. My question was due to the LAC diverging just north of Pangong and merging at some point south. I thought (and continue to hope that) that point is further south of Helmet/Black Top, which means we can claim not to have crossed the LAC and keep painting them as the aggressor. Let me see if I can dig up some of the maps that showed the different lines. Problem is, none of the online resources are authenticated, so it would still be a best guess.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 01 Sep 2020 10:31

https://indianexpress.com/article/india ... t-6578105/

^^^ this suggests that the Chinese are currently occupying Black Top, and we're attempting to control the entire ridgeline, to look down on Thakung, Rezang La and Chushul. That ain't so good, then. I'll crack open the Mithai if we are holding Black Top in force.

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 01 Sep 2020 10:40

pushkar.bhat wrote:
idan wrote:https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/china-r ... topstories
If J-20s are supposed to be stealth, how is it that mainstream media is able to detect them?
So now you know the quality of their stealth. We don't need radars, even our media can detect it.

Let's not get carried away. Stealth aircraft routinely carry "Luneberg Reflectors" which are expressly for the purpose of making them non-stealthy. The idea is that your enemy should have no idea about the stealthiness of the aircraft till they are used in war. So the fact that we are detecting J-20s today doesn't mean much and most certainly IAF/IA isn't complacent about this finding.

williams · Post by **williams** » 01 Sep 2020 10:43

Yes, we should stop saying we are 4 km inside. We are very much within our claim line. In fact far behind it in many areas.

Roop · Post by **Roop** » 01 Sep 2020 10:59

Raveen wrote:If Ajai Shukla is reporting this... this douche doesn't report anything without a payment

People are well advised to ignore this guy (and BK too). Waste of time paying any attention to them.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Sep 2020 11:04

yensoy wrote:
pushkar.bhat wrote: So now you know the quality of their stealth. We don't need radars, even our media can detect it.
Let's not get carried away. Stealth aircraft routinely carry "Luneberg Reflectors" which are expressly for the purpose of making them non-stealthy. The idea is that your enemy should have no idea about the stealthiness of the aircraft till they are used in war. So the fact that we are detecting J-20s today doesn't mean much and most certainly IAF/IA isn't complacent about this finding.

It's sarcastic remark on media. Not really about stealth.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 01 Sep 2020 11:29

Ref this map to understand the LAC ... All blue features are Indian and all Red features are Chinese. So while the Bump is on the Indian side and the Black top is on the Chinese side of LAC when both are opposite ends of a common ridge.

pankajs wrote:For Reference: Area map supposed to be from the Indian Army.

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 2013598721
Indian Army's map of LAC along Pangong Tso southern bank and Spangur Tso
via @reportersujan

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 01 Sep 2020 11:39

ramana wrote:Folks can we start using #IndoChinaSea from now onwards.

#NoSouthChina Sea

I have a better name. North Nutana Sea. This is a name given to south china sea by Indonesia following needless provocation by the CCP bandits.

So #NoSouthChina sea.
#YesNorth Nutana Sea.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 01 Sep 2020 11:47

The French, who were a significant naval power in that region, called the region itself Indochina and the sea "la mer de l'indochine", given the strong Indian culture coming from the west and Chinese influence coming from the east.
There is a reason why Indonesia is called so

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 01 Sep 2020 11:53

Time to move our artillery on to these heights and set up advanced support camps while commander level talks are going on. In their desperation to save face and show some results, PLA will not let talks go on for weeks and months like IA did patiently since May.

We are in no hurry to get back to status quo, no matter what the official statements are!

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 01 Sep 2020 12:01

You don't move atry to tops but you use the tops for observation and directing the arty fire. Remember Kargil? The occupation of Kargil heights by the baakis wasn't to set up arty posts but to set up observation posts to direct arty fire.

Chinese tried to do a Kargil on India but India did a reverse Kargil on them.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 01 Sep 2020 12:11

pushkar.bhat wrote:If indeed we are occupying Black Top, Helmet and the feature near Reqin then my reading is that their positions on the south bank of Pangang Tso are untenable. There is one more feature (height 18070 Feet) between Black Top and the lake. This is across the Ridgeline from Black Top. if that feature is also held by us then even their positions across from Finger 4-8 and Sirijap are venerable.

IF we are at Black top and Reqin then the Chinese position(s) around the Spanggur gap too becomes untenable.

Mollick.R · Post by **Mollick.R** » 01 Sep 2020 12:52

India-China tension in eastern Ladakh: Civilian traffic, phone network suspended
By Hakeem Irfan Rashid, ET Bureau Last Updated: Sep 01, 2020, 07:36 AM IST

“The situation is not normal on the border. We are hearing that clashes have been going on around Black Top mountain in Gurung Hali of Chushul area for some days now. We are hearing that our troops have been injured,” said a resident of Durbuk in eastern Ladakh. The area where fresh tensions was reported was captured by the Chinese army during 1962 war.

Another former legislator from Ladakh said that fresh Chinese aggression was also reported from Pangong Tso in the past week. “Locals in the villages near Pangong Tso inform that the Chinese troops have come up to Finger two area and provoked the Indian Army,” he said.

In Leh city, where most local politicians are busy with the upcoming council elections, locals reported heavy movement of Army vehicles towards bases in Karu and Durbuk. “We have been told that fresh contingents of the Army are being transported towards Ladakh from Kashmir and other states as well,” said an officer in Srinagar.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/mu ... 859970.cms

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 01 Sep 2020 12:55

pankajs wrote: IF we are at Black top and Reqin then the Chinese position(s) around the Spanggur gap too becomes untenable.

Absolutely, that is a given +1

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 01 Sep 2020 13:04

Shiv Aroor reports...

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/india-chinese-tanks-firing-distance-pangong-tso-lac-tense-1717334-2020-09-01

...
According to sources, Indian and Chinese tanks have been stationed within firing distance of each other even as fresh military talks continue for the second day on Tuesday.

Chinese battle tanks and armoured vehicles are stationed near foothills of 'Kala Top', which is occupied by the Indian forces, the sources added.

China has deployed heavy and light tanks in the area and they are within engaging distance of Indian positions.

The Indian forces at Kala Top, however, are fully armed and with tank and artillery support.

Because of dominant positions held by India's Special Frontier Force (SFF) at Kala Top and army units on other adjoining heights, movement of Chinese tanks and machinery has been halted.

Amid renewed tensions, an Indian tank regiment is already deployed in the plains -- south west of the flashpoint between Spanggur Tso and Chushul.
...

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 01 Sep 2020 13:08

Kakarat wrote:https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/13 ... 6426468356
Not single location.
Not single incident.
Not single unit.
Situation very tense on Pangong south bank.

https://twitter.com/Ak5985965/status/13 ... 8114641923

Inputs from @shatrujeet009 that in a well planned and deliberate op @adgpi did a multi pronged assault with 3 batallions - 7 Vikas, a Dogra unit and a Sikh unit

Would have been preceeded by adequate recce and probably rehearsals too. Looks like media strategy in sync as well

Likely but take it with a bucket of salt.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 01 Sep 2020 13:16

putnanja wrote:Shiv Aroor reports...

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/india-chinese-tanks-firing-distance-pangong-tso-lac-tense-1717334-2020-09-01

...
According to sources, Indian and Chinese tanks have been stationed within firing distance of each other even as fresh military talks continue for the second day on Tuesday.

Chinese battle tanks and armoured vehicles are stationed near foothills of 'Kala Top', which is occupied by the Indian forces, the sources added.

China has deployed heavy and light tanks in the area and they are within engaging distance of Indian positions.

The Indian forces at Kala Top, however, are fully armed and with tank and artillery support.

Because of dominant positions held by India's Special Frontier Force (SFF) at Kala Top and army units on other adjoining heights, movement of Chinese tanks and machinery has been halted.

Amid renewed tensions, an Indian tank regiment is already deployed in the plains -- south west of the flashpoint between Spanggur Tso and Chushul.
...

So we have indeed occupied the "Black top" and by extension the Chinese camp at the base of Black top that is also the top of the Yu la. 1.5 km to Black top and 3 km to the Chinese camp at Yu La from the LAC.

This is actually a great position to hold with a commanding view of the Chinese positions around the South bank of Pangang Tso and Spanggur gap as well as along most of the Spanggur lake.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 01 Sep 2020 13:17

IA now dominates the area

https://twitter.com/ndtv/status/1300688226374410240

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 01 Sep 2020 13:23

We should now start building for a permanent deployment at the new locations just as the Chinese did at the north bank of Pangang tso.

That will show our intent to HOLD position just like the Chinese have shown their intent on the northern bank of Pangang tso.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 01 Sep 2020 13:24

No. Time to push ahead and occupy until our claim line and end this LAC business once for all.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 01 Sep 2020 13:26

pankajs wrote:You don't move atry to tops but you use the tops for observation and directing the arty fire. Remember Kargil? The occupation of Kargil heights by the baakis wasn't to set up arty posts but to set up observation posts to direct arty fire.

Chinese tried to do a Kargil on India but India did a reverse Kargil on them.

You are right. Arty cannot look down and shoot down beyond a certain angle.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 01 Sep 2020 13:28

Our control of the Black top and Reqin ridge is a sufficient counter to the Chinese f4-8 Pangang tso gambit though obviously each situation is different.

There is still Gogra/Hot springs and Depsang situation. I guess India is still giving Chinese time to make up their minds by doing this sector by sector thus still allowing for a "negotiated" withdrawal by both sides.

But this Black top and Reqin ridge gambit of the IA would be a difficult pill to swallow for the PLA/Chinese/Xi.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 01 Sep 2020 13:29

pushkar.bhat wrote:
pankajs wrote: IF we are at Black top and Reqin then the Chinese position(s) around the Spanggur gap too becomes untenable.
Absolutely, that is a given +1

chola · Post by **chola** » 01 Sep 2020 13:32

putnanja wrote:Shiv Aroor reports...

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/india-chinese-tanks-firing-distance-pangong-tso-lac-tense-1717334-2020-09-01

...
According to sources, Indian and Chinese tanks have been stationed within firing distance of each other even as fresh military talks continue for the second day on Tuesday.

Chinese battle tanks and armoured vehicles are stationed near foothills of 'Kala Top', which is occupied by the Indian forces, the sources added.

China has deployed heavy and light tanks in the area and they are within engaging distance of Indian positions.

The Indian forces at Kala Top, however, are fully armed and with tank and artillery support.

Because of dominant positions held by India's Special Frontier Force (SFF) at Kala Top and army units on other adjoining heights, movement of Chinese tanks and machinery has been halted.

Amid renewed tensions, an Indian tank regiment is already deployed in the plains -- south west of the flashpoint between Spanggur Tso and Chushul.
...

Whoa! This looks real. Armor in place. Apaches and LCHs around and the IAF providing top cover. Maybe Rafale and the J-20.

Chinis trying to take back the heights? Draw them in for a clobbering against the summit. I hope they move and we spring the trap!

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 01 Sep 2020 13:40

The Chinese wanted to beat India and show India up infront of the Indian people and the world by intimidation and not by fighting.

India has returned the favor in equal measure at least in the Pangang tso sector. That has waylayed the Chinese plans. It is up to them if they want to initiate a hot war or not. IA has been ready for a while now.

Btw, IA surprised me by making a counter "intrution" in the same sector and general area right under the nose of the Chinese. I did not expect that. Great work!

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 01 Sep 2020 13:43

I wonder if similar tactics of hand combat can be used to occupy/push the chinese out of other areas. Use their tactics against them. See if they still stick to no fire arms.

Perhaps, this tactic can be used more effectively in winter when they may reduce their strength at their positions.

nam · Post by **nam** » 01 Sep 2020 13:44

The Chinis might try out any action, during the US election. Specially if the US media tom toms that Biden is going to win.

Chinis desperately want to show off their military power, through a show & awe victory. But their problem is, we are a large foe. I was expecting a small fight with Philippines.

They want to keep it local. They cannot. If the Chini do go kinetic, it will be come without warning.Some force level for a short campaign is already there. Cannot left our guard down.

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 01 Sep 2020 13:56

nam wrote:The Chinis might try out any action, during the US election. Specially if the US media tom toms that Biden is going to win.

Chinis desperately want to show off their military power, through a show & awe victory. But their problem is, we are a large foe. I was expecting a small fight with Philippines.

They want to keep it local. They cannot. If the Chini do go kinetic, it will be come without warning.Some force level for a short campaign is already there. Cannot left our guard down.

That will be too late. They have a window of about 4 weeks before the cold sets in. November will be very late..

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 01 Sep 2020 14:02

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/13 ... 6741194758

लद्दाख बॉर्डर पर बिगड़े हालात, भारत-चीन ने तैनात किए टैंक, ‘काला टॉप’ हिल पर सेना मुस्तैद https://aajtak.in/india/news/story/indi ... 2020-09-01

Translated from Hindi by

Situation deteriorated on Ladakh border, India-China deployed tanks, army ready on 'black top' hill https://aajtak.in/india/news/sto

From the NDTV and Aaj Tak report it seems that the Chinese were trying to push their tanks over the Yu La and/or Spanggur gap and in response the Indian army occupied the Black top.

Control of Black top allows India to block/seal Yu La access to the Chinese and well as monitor the Spanggur gap and direct fire if needed at the Chinese positions around the gap.

chola · Post by **chola** » 01 Sep 2020 14:07

hanumadu wrote:I wonder if similar tactics of hand combat can be used to occupy/push the chinese out of other areas. Use their tactics against them. See if they still stick to no fire arms.

Perhaps, this tactic can be used more effectively in winter when they may reduce their strength at their positions.

It is far more likely that they will try something in the winter banking on a lower likelihood of IA retaliation. They want to do things without the kinetics. Even at Galwan it was with medieval clubs instead of modern firepower.

I hope holding the heights at Black Top is forcing their hands and make them fight. A thrashing here -- and we are talking major action with armor in regimental size! -- would be a groundshaking across the Asian geopolitical landscape. Imagine the burning hulks of chini armor littering the hillside here.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 01 Sep 2020 14:11

And some desi tadka on top of whatever is cooking at the LAC ....

https://twitter.com/ani_digital/status/ ... 7716186118

Despite Chinese cameras and sensors, Indian troops managed to beat PLA in occupying height

Read @ANI Story | https://aninews.in/news/national/

https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 901125733/

The Chinese Army has installed such equipment all along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) and use them effectively to monitor Indian activities and respond quickly whenever they find Indian patrols on the areas claimed by them.

Sources said the cameras and surveillance equipment has been removed after the Indian side occupied the dormant height within its territory.

China has been claiming that the height belongs to them and wanted to capture it to get into an advantageous position all along the southern bank of Pangong lake area and the nearby Spangur Gap, an open territory where Chinese armoured regiments were deployed.

Sources said the Indian side has prepared very well for responding to the Chinese reaction in view of the action by own troops including a Special Operations unit and Sikh Light Infantry troops there.

More confirmation of multiple units used for the operations ...

Someone is going to reeducation camp soon for this failure ...

Iyersan · Post by **Iyersan** » 01 Sep 2020 14:28

chola wrote:
hanumadu wrote:I wonder if similar tactics of hand combat can be used to occupy/push the chinese out of other areas. Use their tactics against them. See if they still stick to no fire arms.

Perhaps, this tactic can be used more effectively in winter when they may reduce their strength at their positions.
It is far more likely that they will try something in the winter banking on a lower likelihood of IA retaliation. They want to do things without the kinetics. Even at Galwan it was with medieval clubs instead of modern firepower.

I hope holding the heights at Black Top is forcing their hands and make them fight. A thrashing here -- and we are talking major action with armor in regimental size! -- would be a groundshaking across the Asian geopolitical landscape. Imagine the burning hulks of chini armor littering the hillside here.

Tanks within firing range. That is serious. Btw, multiple units and multiple heights have been occupied. PLA can’t appear weak. Taiwan will laugh at them. Welcome to the WAR

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 01 Sep 2020 14:44

chola wrote:...I hope holding the heights at Black Top is forcing their hands and make them fight. A thrashing here -- and we are talking major action with armor in regimental size! -- would be a groundshaking across the Asian geopolitical landscape. Imagine the burning hulks of chini armor littering the hillside here.

IA artillery may not be as precise as the Chinese tanks. IA may miss their Chinese light tank targets, and a shell or two may land on Finger 5, Finger 8, Spanggur, Sirijap or G219, who knows?

manju · Post by **manju** » 01 Sep 2020 14:53

Pratyush wrote:
ramana wrote:Folks can we start using #IndoChinaSea from now onwards.

#NoSouthChina Sea
I have a better name. North Nutana Sea. This is a name given to south china sea by Indonesia following needless provocation by the CCP bandits.

So #NoSouthChina sea.
#YesNorth Nutana Sea.

Name it with 'IND"
IND for India and Indonesia

Larry Walker · Post by **Larry Walker** » 01 Sep 2020 15:29

India's statement does not mention territorial intrusion and was released first. Chinese released a statement later and clearly called out that India has intruded into their territory. Now if this is all about Chinese trying to appear strong and make India look weak - why would Chinese unilaterally accept that India has pushed inside China. Unless ofcourse Chinese have decided to push India back militarily. So it appears that Chinese assault is imminent.

chola · Post by **chola** » 01 Sep 2020 15:42

Larry Walker wrote:India's statement does not mention territorial intrusion and was released first. Chinese released a statement later and clearly called out that India has intruded into their territory. Now if this is all about Chinese trying to appear strong and make India look weak - why would Chinese unilaterally accept that India has pushed inside China. Unless ofcourse Chinese have decided to push India back militarily. So it appears that Chinese assault is imminent.

Yes, that's how it sounds to me. I hope the chinis react and get clobbered trying take higher ground.

But my guts tells me that the chinis being what they are will try something underhanded instead of a straight up fight. Pakis will try to strike back as soon as possible given their view of themselves as a martial race. But for Cheen they will be less honorable and more mercantile so they might intrude somewhere else and then we will do the same elsewhere and then so on and in the winter, it will be a contest of who can supply and move under extreme conditions.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 01 Sep 2020 15:47

Chinese are between rock and hard place. They cannot appear weak especially after behaving like a superpower. But if they go kinetic, they don't control the results with no surprise factor and a well prepared IA. Whatever calculations they had made earlier were dented first in Galwan and second in the way IA outsmarted them to occupy Kalatop from under their nose.

Doomed if they withdraw...doomed if they don't withdraw. And winter approaching in 6 weeks...not much time to play waiting game. They will likely withdraw and India will give them a face saving formula.

Larry Walker · Post by **Larry Walker** » 01 Sep 2020 15:53

By painting a picture of intrusion, Chinese have set themselves up for a fight. They have to show victory now. So straight option is to fight India and push it back in the intrusion area. But even if they don't fight there but occupy some other sector - they will still need to show victory and hence they will claim they have intruded into Indian territory. If they do this - do we think India has the option to wait it out for the winter or counterattack?? By calling it an intrusion into its sovereign territory - Chinese have set the stage for war - one way or the other.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 01 Sep 2020 16:02

India can do another counter intrusion and put the ball back into the Chinese court and the game will continue ...

LAC is very porous for foot-patrols as I have been saying from the very beginning. While major ingress routes are blocked, many small such features like the Black top are open for a daring army.