Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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Cain Marko
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 04 Sep 2020 09:36

vivek_ahuja wrote:BTW, I should remind everyone that while the 83 LCAs await orders, the IAF is still flying Mig-21 Bisons against top-of-the-line F-16s+AMRAAMs.

The clock continues to tick...

The clock no doubt continues to tick and what the hold up for the mk1a is, is anybody's guess. No denying that.

But that aside, let's not underestimate the venerable bison. It has proved itself in exercises against both usaf and rsaf top of the line f16s, and finally against paf in 2019.

Not the best situation to be in, yes. But given the constraints, the IAF did a great job upgrading the fishbed, the bird is truly venomous as noted by usaf f15 pilots.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby vivek_ahuja » 04 Sep 2020 10:14

Cain Marko wrote:But that aside, let's not underestimate the venerable bison. It has proved itself in exercises against both usaf and rsaf top of the line f16s, and finally against paf in 2019.

Not the best situation to be in, yes. But given the constraints, the IAF did a great job upgrading the fishbed, the bird is truly venomous as noted by usaf f15 pilots.


The Bison was an amazing lease of life for the Mig-21 when it was rolled out in the early 2000s. It did really well and surprised the USAF F-15 pilots. But that was in a WVR fight

Excerpt from Cope-India 2004 summary:
According to the Pentagon, several limitations reduced the chances of victory of the Eagle drivers against the Indian fighters.

First of all, the lack of the advanced active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar on their F-15s. Second, the air engagements typically involved six Eagles against up to eighteen IAF aircraft with no chance to simulate any beyond visual range (BVR) missile shot (due to the Indian request of not using the AMRAAM).

Furthermore, the Indians had sent their most experienced airmen to fight against the Americans whereas the latter belonged to a standard squadron (hence there was a mix of experienced and less experienced pilots).


And this was 16 years ago.

So fast-forward to 2020. AESA radars and BVR missiles are the name of the game. Latest-gen AMRAAMs are being used. And the numbers advantage is no longer on the Indian side (or barely is unless the LCA is induced in numbers).

The Balakot experience was a unique incident that allowed the Bison to ambush an F-16 and paid for it with its life from other F-16s nearby. An eye for an eye, I suppose.

Can the Bison hold its own in a full-fledged BVR fight on its own in 2020 if support from Su-30s and AWACS are not available (given extremely limited numbers of the latter)? Don't we have a replacement for the Mig-21... {cough}...LCA...{cough}

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby vivek_ahuja » 04 Sep 2020 10:16

nachiket wrote:Btw, to put the dwindling squadron numbers into perspective, we already have the oldest Bisons being retired now. Here's a post from the Warbirds of India Twitter handle about one Bison which has showed up as a warbird


This is good news. They need to retired and their experienced pilots transitioned to the LCA as soon as possible.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby vivek_ahuja » 04 Sep 2020 10:21

VikramS wrote:For Radar Guided Missiles (and not IR guided), it helps to have missiles from multiple vendors with different algorithms/electronics.

You never know which system has been compromised and vulnerable to ECMs.

With multiple sources, your AF has some inbuilt resiliency. And if the same platform can carry multiple weapons, it also makes the task of ECM a bit harder since they would have to figure out which missile/radar band they have to work against.


I apologize, but this sounds like rationalization post-fact. Yes, if we have a zoo of different airplanes and an even more diverse set of weapons, then the enemy is likely to get very confused.

You know who else will get confused? The IAF pilots who have to learn the finer points of every single missile they are expected to know about. Also the maintenance staff on the ground and the logistics people who have to now figure out which unit gets what missile. And how to do you establish proficiency for the aircrew on such diverse permutation of weapons?

It is far more likely that specific units will operate only a given type of missile and its flight crews will be optimized for that weapon.

Modern ECM systems usually have their own on-board libraries for all known enemy radars. Rest assured the computer there will know what to do handle each type without feeling the adversity.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby vivek_ahuja » 04 Sep 2020 10:27

Aditya_V wrote:Throughout late 90S and late 2000's, MOD was "saving money", by buying cheaper Ukrainian R-77 AE missiles, The Russians also started inducting the R-77-1 only around 2015, post 27-Feb-19, we quickly inducted the R-77 SD since we realized the necessity while Astra numbers come online, the Russians also cannot deliver all 400 missiles in 1 go, its probably some Astra and some R-77 BD are being inducted paralelly, this will try and get 50 Astra + 248 Astra + 400 R-77 BD by end of next year while Astra-1 production picks up and SFDR comes online in 3-4 years, while this is going on Rafale+ Meteor combination will also help.


So how many BVR missile types is that in the active inventory over the next decade:
R-27 (and its variants)
R-77 AE (expired? Ukranian?)
R-77-1
R-77 SD
R-77 BD
Meteor
Astra Mk-1
SFDR

Am I missing something in the list?

How many Astra missiles have been ordered? Has that been published?

Aditya_V wrote:Older R-27 and R-77 will be expended with Mig-21 Bissons and shoot down Paki UAV's, people forget we shot down some 4-6 Paki UAV's mostly of the wing long type in 27-Feb-19 to 15-Mar-19 which convinced the PAf there no major radar gaps they could exploit.


Were these shoot-downs with AAMs?

Secondary roles for the Bisons are certainly expected. I mean, what else is the IAF going to do anyway? It is not ordering the replacement for the Mig-21s (LCA), so it will have to force them into the fight somewhere.

Aditya_V wrote:The loss of F-16 and SU-30 dodging 5 Amraams from multiple aircraft was a huge shock for the PAF.


The F-16s launched their AMRAAMs at maximum range under full knowledge that the IAF AEW coverage was tracking the launches. Was it really that much of a shock that these shots missed?

It is much more likely that they got the effect they wanted: Su-30s taking evasive maneuvers and opening a brief corridor for them to get their strike package in. Of course, that ambush by the Bisons caught them off guard and foiled that action.
Last edited by vivek_ahuja on 04 Sep 2020 10:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ks_sachin » 04 Sep 2020 10:28

vivek_ahuja wrote:
nachiket wrote:Btw, to put the dwindling squadron numbers into perspective, we already have the oldest Bisons being retired now. Here's a post from the Warbirds of India Twitter handle about one Bison which has showed up as a warbird


This is good news. They need to retired and their experienced pilots transitioned to the LCA as soon as possible.


First we have to get the LCA's in the air!!!

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby vivek_ahuja » 04 Sep 2020 10:30

Rakesh wrote:The answer to your second question is NO. The IAF has a variety of missiles from various countries i.e. Meteor from France, R-77 from Russia, Astra from India and Derby from Israel.

The civilian rationale would be --> why not standardize on one missile type? But the IAF does like to have its platforms fire multiple type i.e. Tejas fires Israeli missiles (Derby), Russian missiles (R-73) and desi missiles (Astra Mk1). The Su-30MKI carries R-77 and Astra. Mirage 2000 fires R-73 (not a BVR missile though), as well as MICA (also not a BVR missile). But that Utopian scenario does not always pan out i.e. IAF wanted to mount Meteor on Tejas. MBDA said no. When SFDR comes on board, MBDA will surely come offering Meteor integration for Tejas :)

The IN is also no different. There are photos of the now retired Tu-142s mounted with the (also retired) Sea Eagle AShMs from BAe.

You cannot do that on American platforms though. The political issue makes it technically challenging.


Is this yet another case of the chicken-and-egg argument? What came first: the multiple missile types or the multiple platforms? Or did each platform come with its own missile types to create the zoo we have today?

If the missile inventory exists, the IAF would be foolish to NOT consider integrating them far-and-wide with all available types of platforms. I don't see how this becomes an argument for IAF wanting to do this (i.e. maintain a diverse inventory of foreign missiles) as a matter of doctrine.
Last edited by vivek_ahuja on 04 Sep 2020 10:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby vivek_ahuja » 04 Sep 2020 10:30

ks_sachin wrote:
vivek_ahuja wrote:
This is good news. They need to retired and their experienced pilots transitioned to the LCA as soon as possible.


First we have to get the LCA's in the air!!!


First we have to get the LCAs ordered! :wink:

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 04 Sep 2020 10:32

vivek_ahuja wrote:So how many BVR missile types is that in the active inventory over the next decade:
R-27
R-77 AE (expired? Ukranian?)
R-77-1
R-77 SD
R-77 BD
Meteor
Astra Mk-1
SFDR

There is no missile called the R-77 SD. RVV-SD is the export designation of the R-77-1. RVV-BD is another name for the R-37 which equips the Mig-31BM and we do not have any of those. Before the SFDR, there is an Astra Mk2 planned with a dual pulse rocket motor. Also you forgot the MICA-RF on the M2k's and Rafales.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby vivek_ahuja » 04 Sep 2020 10:34

@Nachiket: Thanks!

So the corrected list for the IAF 2020s BVR missiles :

R-27 (and its variants)
R-77 AE (expired? Ukranian?)
R-77-1/ RVV-SD
Meteor
Astra Mk-1 + Mk-2
SFDR
Mica-RF
Edit: Derby (see discussion below)
Last edited by vivek_ahuja on 04 Sep 2020 10:55, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 04 Sep 2020 10:41

I have never really understood the argument about multiple missile types making ECM difficult for the enemy. Most SPJ's on fighters are little more than on-off switches turning the jamming on or off. The pilot himself does not have time to fiddle around with changing any parameters of the jammer when he is busy dodging a missile. It is upto the RWR-Jammer combo to figure out the solution automatically based on the incoming radar signal and its own threat library. I think we are making a virtue out of necessity here as Vivek is saying.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 04 Sep 2020 10:48

vivek_ahuja wrote:@Nachiket: Thanks!

So the corrected list:

R-27 (and its variants)
R-77 AE (expired? Ukranian?)
R-77-1/ RVV-SD
Meteor
Astra Mk-1 + Mk-2
SFDR
Mica

Is that correct now?

Yes pretty much. Although we have no idea when the Astra Mk2 and SFDR will be ready and how many we will actually buy. I have no info about our old R-77's being Ukrainian rather than Russian. I didn't even know they were manufactured in Ukraine. Anyway I doubt all of the older R-77's are expired.

What we can hope for is going forward, we should not have to import BVRAAMs for the Su-30 and Tejas fleets at the minimum and the Mig-29 and M2k fleets if possible.

EDIT: We forgot the Derby used on the Tejas. There are so many it is difficult to keep track. There was talk of buying the iDerby-ER as well to replace the Derby. No idea what is the status of that.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby gunnvant » 04 Sep 2020 10:56

Sir Derby is integrated as you know. Astra will be. Have not seen any report pointing to MICA or R77 (happy to be corrected)

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby vivek_ahuja » 04 Sep 2020 10:56

Added Derby to that list. Thanks!

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 04 Sep 2020 11:43

vivek_ahuja wrote:
A
Aditya_V wrote:Older R-27 and R-77 will be expended with Mig-21 Bissons and shoot down Paki UAV's, people forget we shot down some 4-6 Paki UAV's mostly of the wing long type in 27-Feb-19 to 15-Mar-19 which convinced the PAf there no major radar gaps they could exploit.


Were these shoot-downs with AAMs?

.


The one shot down on the morning of 27-Feb-19 near Naliya airbase was by the Spyder SAM system- most probably Python V missile.

The ones shot down over Rajastan in Mar-19 were through Fighter intercepts and AAM- reportedly 1 UAV was shot down a few km within Pakistan

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 04 Sep 2020 11:57

vivek_ahuja wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:But that aside, let's not underestimate the venerable bison. It has proved itself in exercises against both usaf and rsaf top of the line f16s, and finally against paf in 2019.

Not the best situation to be in, yes. But given the constraints, the IAF did a great job upgrading the fishbed, the bird is truly venomous as noted by usaf f15 pilots.


The Bison was an amazing lease of life for the Mig-21 when it was rolled out in the early 2000s. It did really well and surprised the USAF F-15 pilots. But that was in a WVR fight

Excerpt from Cope-India 2004 summary:
According to the Pentagon, several limitations reduced the chances of victory of the Eagle drivers against the Indian fighters.

First of all, the lack of the advanced active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar on their F-15s. Second, the air engagements typically involved six Eagles against up to eighteen IAF aircraft with no chance to simulate any beyond visual range (BVR) missile shot (due to the Indian request of not using the AMRAAM).

Furthermore, the Indians had sent their most experienced airmen to fight against the Americans whereas the latter belonged to a standard squadron (hence there was a mix of experienced and less experienced pilots).


And this was 16 years ago.

So fast-forward to 2020. AESA radars and BVR missiles are the name of the game. Latest-gen AMRAAMs are being used. And the numbers advantage is no longer on the Indian side (or barely is unless the LCA is induced in numbers).

The Balakot experience was a unique incident that allowed the Bison to ambush an F-16 and paid for it with its life from other F-16s nearby. An eye for an eye, I suppose.

Can the Bison hold its own in a full-fledged BVR fight on its own in 2020 if support from Su-30s and AWACS are not available (given extremely limited numbers of the latter)? Don't we have a replacement for the Mig-21... {cough}...LCA...{cough}


Re. CI. I thought there were bvr scenarios involving the bison. But I could be wrong, maybe it was the 2005 exercises. There were limitations on both sides though. And the apg63 v2 was no slouch vs what India fielded then, the best was the su30k with the n001 mech radar, probly not on par with the apg63. Consider also that the IAF packages had strkers like the flogger embedded in them, usaf was not exactly outnumbered. The wvr part was imposed on both sides and considering what happened at balakot one can see why the IAF trains so hard wvr. The action vs tsp is very close and fast It wasn't so one sided afterall. what's more, the bison also held it's own against rsaf blk50s.

Wrt support: The bison is mainly a point defence fighter and will rarely if ever be on its own without support from ground control/aew/mki. It simply doesn't have the legs. In balakot one doubts if too many other fighters would have done much better in such close quarters. Bvr shots would not have been in play at such ranges. Nor did the roe allow for these otherwise you would have probly seen a few from the mki considering they have arrows longer than the amraams.

More importantly, In 2020 there is no f15 or 16 in the neighborhood deployed with aesa or latest amraams.( Ver. D, I believe). Remember most bisons are looking West towards tsp, and the best the fizzleya can field are those blk50 solahs, which the bison can take on in a defensive posture. If we trade 1:1 vs the viper in an all out war, as we did in balakot, I'd think that in itself would be a commendable job for the little plane.

This is not to say that there haven't been inordinate delays wrt the Tejas. And I'd have felt a lot better if the IAF had ordered 40 additional foc variants until the mk1a came along.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 04 Sep 2020 11:58

I'm just wondering... If the reports about the aesa upgrade on the latest baaz are true, will they come with the r37s?

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby VikramS » 09 Sep 2020 11:41

vivek_ahuja wrote:
VikramS wrote:For Radar Guided Missiles (and not IR guided), it helps to have missiles from multiple vendors with different algorithms/electronics.

You never know which system has been compromised and vulnerable to ECMs.

With multiple sources, your AF has some inbuilt resiliency. And if the same platform can carry multiple weapons, it also makes the task of ECM a bit harder since they would have to figure out which missile/radar band they have to work against.


I apologize, but this sounds like rationalization post-fact. Yes, if we have a zoo of different airplanes and an even more diverse set of weapons, then the enemy is likely to get very confused.

You know who else will get confused? The IAF pilots who have to learn the finer points of every single missile they are expected to know about. Also the maintenance staff on the ground and the logistics people who have to now figure out which unit gets what missile. And how to do you establish proficiency for the aircrew on such diverse permutation of weapons?

It is far more likely that specific units will operate only a given type of missile and its flight crews will be optimized for that weapon.

Modern ECM systems usually have their own on-board libraries for all known enemy radars. Rest assured the computer there will know what to do handle each type without feeling the adversity.




This is not just about confusing the enemy; it is about having a choice of weapons where if one or more of weapon systems get blunted.

Only one type of weapon in a class creates what in systems is called a Single Point of Failure (SPOF). If for whatever reason that weapon system under performs; you have no other options left to exploit. The gun-less Mig21s in 1965 whose AAMs had poor performance is a classic example.


1. The point about maintenance and ground support is very valid

2. Each type of aircraft gets mated with a set of missiles. Not every aircraft type will carry all missiles. So the argument about IAF pilots confused is probably not strong. Since pilots dont switch aircraft types regularly; they are likely to be well versed in the capabilities of the weapons they are carrying even if the weapons are different between different aircraft types.

3. The defensive suite aspect is more than just radar library: It is about how effective the CM measures deployed are. Every missile type has its own software/hardware combo, and they will perform differently in different regimes. That is also true of their susceptibility or hardness against CMs.

4. What this implies is that the success of the defensive suite will also vary based on the missile they are dealing with. One class of missile may have its weaknesses exposed which would lead to more effective tactics (Kinetic + ECM + flares/chaff/decoy) from the same defensive suite on the same aircraft.

5. eg: Airforce A realizes that the Kill Rate of their Missile X fired by aircraft P against enemy aircraft of type M is much lower than they had anticipated. They now have the option to either change their engagement model i.e. try to pitch a different Aircraft Q against type M; or a different class of missile Y by aircraft P. They can start flying missions with mix of both aircraft P and Q, with the engagement tactics also influenced by the effectiveness of the weapons they carry.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 09 Sep 2020 11:53

There are some doubts on the R-77 especially the AE variant held as of 27-Feb-19 does raise some issues, not 1 was fired, there must have been an operational reason why Wing Commander Abhinandan opted for R-73 F-16 kill, From watching AM Harikumar interview and what we have spaced together the IAF was not supremely confident on the R-77-AE( some of which were acquired from Ukraine) on 27-Feb-19. Ideally the Mig 21 Bisons should fired of thier 4 R-77s as soon as the got across the Pir Pangal's on 27-Feb-19 morning- that would made the 4 F16's toast but they had to go closer and get the more risky Closer range IR kill- why?

It seems clear there was something wrong especially with the Ukranian R-77's we have been acquiring over a time period.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 09 Sep 2020 12:44

We never acquired R-77s from the Ukraine. They don't make them. We purchased R-27s. They are guide in all the way in the ER variant and long-burn IR missiles in the TE variant. Abhinandan was not carrying R-27s but R-77s and R73Es.

As to why he did not launch R-77s, they require a radar scan and then you fire them. As and when they lock on, they alert the opponent RWR and hence the opponent can take countermeasures. In contrast, the R73E is completely passive and a sure shot kill if the target does not know its headed for him, does not engage countermeasures, and the missile works as intended. He clearly did not want to alert his opponent. His tactical choice, was hence correct. He was within launch parameters and he achieved what he wanted to do.

Tactical choices are driven by pilot appreciation of the immediate tactical situation + detailed awareness of each weapons pros and cons. You can't sit far away and then 2nd guess based on incomplete data.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby VikramS » 09 Sep 2020 21:11

+1 on what Karan said.

Abhinandan did use radar scans to detect PAF aircraft but was close enough to take an IR shot. The battle area was compressed due to the Pir Panjal range. PAF did not see him till he crossed over, and that meant that the air-battle got out of a pure BVR mode pretty quickly. And IR missiles like R73 have an aerodynamic range of up to 30Km at high altitude so they are not just a close combat dogfight weapon; 30KM would be getting close to the BVR envelope.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby RajaRudra » 10 Sep 2020 14:17

LCA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9cLJ77HxxY&t=1s


SU 30 MKI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgrMh2mCdwY

Note: - Took from mobile camera. Nothing spectacular and audio disturbances. Just thought of posting since , SU is little rare sight in Bangalore when compared to LCA.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 10 Sep 2020 14:56

Karan M wrote:We never acquired R-77s from the Ukraine. They don't make them. We purchased R-27s. They are guide in all the way in the ER variant and long-burn IR missiles in the TE variant. Abhinandan was not carrying R-27s but R-77s and R73Es.

As to why he did not launch R-77s, they require a radar scan and then you fire them. As and when they lock on, they alert the opponent RWR and hence the opponent can take countermeasures. In contrast, the R73E is completely passive and a sure shot kill if the target does not know its headed for him, does not engage countermeasures, and the missile works as intended. He clearly did not want to alert his opponent. His tactical choice, was hence correct. He was within launch parameters and he achieved what he wanted to do.

Tactical choices are driven by pilot appreciation of the immediate tactical situation + detailed awareness of each weapons pros and cons. You can't sit far away and then 2nd guess based on incomplete data.

Is it possible that he was already too close to use the r77? The 21s are fast and that seems to be the idea, use speed to launch from as far as possible or use the r73. The difference between bvr and wvr considering the kopyos limited range can probly be counted in seconds at high speeds.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 10 Sep 2020 16:09

And unlike Tejas with Derby combination which has lock on after launch, the MIg 21 Bison R77 combo did not have it, so instead of waiting for the Kopyo to get a lock and launch he went for the R-73 Kill, in Tejas case he could have launched the Derby and then given it the target.

This is what probably made the Mig 21 Bisons cross the LOC and not PAF super duber Jamming capabilities- although SDR's are required.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kartik » 14 Sep 2020 15:53

cross posting from the International Aerospace discussion thread.

Greece announced that it would order 18 Rafales from France and will upgrade 10 of it's surviving Mirage-2000EGMs to the -2000-5 standard.

Dassault's press release

Saint-Cloud, France, September 12, 2020 – Greece announced today its intention to acquire 18 Rafales to equip its air force.

This announcement illustrates the strength of the partnership that has linked the Greek Air Force and Dassault Aviation for more than 45 years, and demonstrates the enduring strategic relationship between Greece and France.

Greece ordered 40 Mirage F1 from Dassault Aviation in 1974, then 40 Mirage 2000 in 1985 and finally 15 Mirage 2000-5 in the year 2000; this latest contract also includes the modernization of 10 Mirage 2000 to the 2000-5 standard with a large contribution from Greek industry.

“I am delighted with this announcement, which reinforces the exceptional relationship we have had with Greece for nearly half a century, and I thank the Greek authorities for their confidence in us once again. Dassault Aviation is fully mobilized to meet the operational needs expressed by the Greek Air Force, and thus contribute to ensuring Greece’s sovereignty and the safety of the Greek people,” said Eric Trappier, Chairman and CEO of Dassault Aviation.


Greece upgraded 10 Mirage-2000EGMs to the -5 standard earlier. So out of 40, 10 were upgraded, remaining 30 continued as is and 10 of those will also be upgraded to the -5 standard.

That'll leave about 20 Mirage-2000EGMs (minus attrition losses) that as per Greek reports will be replaced by the 18 Rafales. Hopefully, the IAF will approach Dassault to assess the condition of these approx 20 Mirage-2000EGMs and see if they're fit to be upgraded to the -2000I standard. If so, would allow the IAF to add 1 more Mirage-2000 squadron.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 14 Sep 2020 16:05

I think we should leave this fetish for buying used planes- Greace probably against upgrading 30 since their air frame life has been exhausted. IAF budget is better served in 1) More LCA Tejas which it would cost in time and money rework the Air frames wiring for these old Mirages and get them in 2000-5 standard.

Yes in time after LCA Tejas orders we must order some more Rafale to keep increasing the Rafale fleet.

Regarding the 21 Mig-29 Purchases, a lot hoopla has been created to avoid calling it a single vendor Purchase- they are probably new built Mig-29's but calling it that would immediately bring questions like why Single Vendor etc, by calling it old 1989 parts - IAF is just getting around the bureaucratic red tape.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Thakur_B » 15 Sep 2020 10:54

Given the economic situation, it is prudent to purchase Taiwanese and Greek Mirages and upgrade them to M2K-I standaard. This will take care of western front for a decade till AMCA is ready.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 15 Sep 2020 10:58

Aditya_V wrote:And unlike Tejas with Derby combination which has lock on after launch, the MIg 21 Bison R77 combo did not have it, so instead of waiting for the Kopyo to get a lock and launch he went for the R-73 Kill, in Tejas case he could have launched the Derby and then given it the target.

This is what probably made the Mig 21 Bisons cross the LOC and not PAF super duber Jamming capabilities- although SDR's are required.


I am not sure what makes you think the R77 w/MiG21 does not have LOAL. All ARH missiles have LOAL if you fire them "blind" or in a general area where you think the opponent is there. Their Pk drops considerably though if the opponent maneuvers away! In contrast, with an IR or even a BVR missile (if latter has a CCM mode) you can lock the seeker to the HMS or radar, slew it there, if seeker gets a tone then you lock in LOBL mode for high Pk. Or you fire R73s "blind" too with LOAL and again Pk will drop.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 15 Sep 2020 11:01

Cain Marko wrote:
Karan M wrote:We never acquired R-77s from the Ukraine. They don't make them. We purchased R-27s. They are guide in all the way in the ER variant and long-burn IR missiles in the TE variant. Abhinandan was not carrying R-27s but R-77s and R73Es.

As to why he did not launch R-77s, they require a radar scan and then you fire them. As and when they lock on, they alert the opponent RWR and hence the opponent can take countermeasures. In contrast, the R73E is completely passive and a sure shot kill if the target does not know its headed for him, does not engage countermeasures, and the missile works as intended. He clearly did not want to alert his opponent. His tactical choice, was hence correct. He was within launch parameters and he achieved what he wanted to do.

Tactical choices are driven by pilot appreciation of the immediate tactical situation + detailed awareness of each weapons pros and cons. You can't sit far away and then 2nd guess based on incomplete data.

Is it possible that he was already too close to use the r77? The 21s are fast and that seems to be the idea, use speed to launch from as far as possible or use the r73. The difference between bvr and wvr considering the kopyos limited range can probly be counted in seconds at high speeds.


I am sure the IAF has the in's and outs of each missile-target spec combo including the Pks and how best to use them (SOP). Abhi would have combined that with his tactical awareness to make the best choice.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 15 Sep 2020 11:47

Karan M wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:And unlike Tejas with Derby combination which has lock on after launch, the MIg 21 Bison R77 combo did not have it, so instead of waiting for the Kopyo to get a lock and launch he went for the R-73 Kill, in Tejas case he could have launched the Derby and then given it the target.

This is what probably made the Mig 21 Bisons cross the LOC and not PAF super duber Jamming capabilities- although SDR's are required.


I am not sure what makes you think the R77 w/MiG21 does not have LOAL. All ARH missiles have LOAL if you fire them "blind" or in a general area where you think the opponent is there. Their Pk drops considerably though if the opponent maneuvers away! In contrast, with an IR or even a BVR missile (if latter has a CCM mode) you can lock the seeker to the HMS or radar, slew it there, if seeker gets a tone then you lock in LOBL mode for high Pk. Or you fire R73s "blind" too with LOAL and again Pk will drop.


Sir, we all agree Wing Commander Abhinandan is far more knowledgeable than us, but there must be a reason why he and Squadron leader crossed the LOC to get the Kill, in the absence of a proper IAF version we can only try and figure it out.

I dont believe the PAF BS that it all their complete Jamming of IAF- sure SDR and better communication equipment was helpful, but they cant say he came close and got the F-16.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 16 Sep 2020 18:57

Everyone please click on this link below. You will NOT be disappointed.

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 12672?s=20 ----> An Indian Air Force Mirage-2000 makes a low level pass over Leh airfield.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Jay » 16 Sep 2020 20:56

Thakur_B wrote:Given the economic situation, it is prudent to purchase Taiwanese and Greek Mirages and upgrade them to M2K-I standaard.


The Sun will rise in the west if IAF decides to purchase used birds. I think the ship has sailed on India/IAF buying any used weaponry at this point.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Cyrano » 16 Sep 2020 21:58

Rakesh wrote:Everyone please click on this link below. You will NOT be disappointed.

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 12672?s=20 ----> An Indian Air Force Mirage-2000 makes a low level pass over Leh airfield.


Surefooted like an antelope 8)

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 16 Sep 2020 22:23

If you look carefully, you will notice a MiG-23 or MiG-27 and a Mi-8 (?) doing gate guardian duty :)

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Shameek » 16 Sep 2020 22:38

^^ Great video. Nice to see the Bahadur and Mi-17 there. :D

Found another pic of the Mi-17

https://www.flickr.com/photos/faramk/28945953426/

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 16 Sep 2020 22:40

So it is indeed a Mi-17. Thank You!

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby sudeepj » 17 Sep 2020 06:19

Aditya_V wrote:There are some doubts on the R-77 especially the AE variant held as of 27-Feb-19 does raise some issues, not 1 was fired, there must have been an operational reason why Wing Commander Abhinandan opted for R-73 F-16 kill, From watching AM Harikumar interview and what we have spaced together the IAF was not supremely confident on the R-77-AE( some of which were acquired from Ukraine) on 27-Feb-19. Ideally the Mig 21 Bisons should fired of thier 4 R-77s as soon as the got across the Pir Pangal's on 27-Feb-19 morning- that would made the 4 F16's toast but they had to go closer and get the more risky Closer range IR kill- why?

It seems clear there was something wrong especially with the Ukranian R-77's we have been acquiring over a time period.


One thing to consider is that R73's can be launched at a very high off-boresight angle. Even as high as 90 degrees. The same is likely not true for the R77 because the beam angle of the Kopyo in the Mig21 nosecone is likely not as wide.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby MeshaVishwas » 17 Sep 2020 08:51

Circa 1986, An Indian Air Force Mirage 2000 & Il-76 Aircraft Landed In Greece
https://www.spansen.com/2020/09/circa-1 ... t.html?m=1

Short but very sweet.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 17 Sep 2020 09:45

MeshaVishwas wrote:...

See my post right above sudeep's? :)

It is all good though saar. All is well. I enjoy reading your posts.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby deejay » 17 Sep 2020 09:52

Rakesh wrote:So it is indeed a Mi-17. Thank You!


Its a Mi 8 methinks


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