India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

abhishekm · Post by **abhishekm** » 09 Sep 2020 23:45

Sonugn wrote:In view of the current situation in the region, war preparations will have to be stepped up - Pakistan's Army chief General Qamar Javed Bajwa. via Twitter

What? The Tall Fair Naan Eaters are stepping up war preparations? Us poor SDREs should surrender immediately so the TFNE officer corps can go back to managing factories, running petrol pumps and pizza franchises.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 09 Sep 2020 23:45

North of Pangang tso, where the ridges meet, there are 2 valleys from the Chinese side that can be used to climb up/down easily to the center and outflank the Indian position.

One start from SiriJap area and the other from the east. The climb to the top is not too hard but is feasible only for foot patrols unlike Ane la / Kui la. Can't be used as an invasion route but easily as an infiltration route especially to outflank with snipers.

Sooner or later Indian Army will have to sit on the top of the valley to prevent outflanking if the standoff continues longer.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 10 Sep 2020 00:03

pankajs wrote:
abhik wrote: Exactly what came to my mind when i read that. Now if there is going to be a dash for the heights, its eventually going to reach Ane la (which is on the other side of the high point of Pangong ridge/mountains). I measured the path in GE: Ane la to highest point in Pangong area is ~15km and from there its another ~8km to Green Top. Wonder how many troops the PLA are willing to commit to this. I would wager they will start doing what they do best and try to build a road to green top to cement their position there, a motorable road will give them a huge advantage in logistics and give them axis to come down to F2 in numbers.
I remember our discussion.

1. When you say that the distance to the highest point in Pangang tso area ~15 km, do you mean as the crow flies or following the contours of the ridge?
2. How far from F4 on the lake is green top per you?

The moment the Chinese try bringing in reinforcement into the area between F4/5 and/or reinforce their position at green top, India too should reinforce its position along the ridge-line of F4 and at the base around F3 & F2 to be able to prevent wave upon wave of Chinese soldiers flowing down from F4. It will harden the F4 but so be it.

My guess is that we haven't occupied the highest point on the ridge but some convenient point that is higher and back of the green top occupied by the Chinese.

#1: Distance is by following the contours of the ridge. Of course this is using my guess for location of Green top (33.78504833, 78.75385868), this is far north of what some others have put it, but the PLA have a camp in the valley that is almost parallel to this location, so I'm assuming they must have a corresponding post in the ridge line also. This is also the location where the ridges of F2 to F6 merge, so any one here will be able to look into booth F1/F2 valley and F6/F7 valley. And If i'm wrong and green top is actually further south and lower down, then this would be one of the key places for IA to occupy and dominate the PLA both in the valley and on the ridge.
#2 From the lake shore at F4 to "my" green top is ~8km along the ridge (so a total line from Ane le of ~30km).

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 10 Sep 2020 00:06

Indians seem to be confidant.

There is a sweet video of some Sikhs filming the Rafales on their final approach. The comments in Panjabi are quite endearing.

If someone can find it, please post it.

nam · Post by **nam** » 10 Sep 2020 00:11

We could have done away with the whole dance and song of induction ceremony with RM & French DM coming in. Not in the midst of a potential war.

All we need is Chinis kicking off a fight, with our Rafale having to do a emergency take off right in the middle of the ceremony... and make us look like fools..

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 10 Sep 2020 00:18

nam ji,
Shows our confidence that any such attempt will be thwarted. Or responded to with interest at a rate > what China charges gullible African countries. French N-subs will be in some relevant waters if their DM is going to a zone with some risk.

rpartha · Post by **rpartha** » 10 Sep 2020 00:20

nam wrote:We could have done away with the whole dance and song of induction ceremony with RM & French DM coming in. Not in the midst of a potential war.

All we need is Chinis kicking off a fight, with our Rafale having to do a emergency take off right in the middle of the ceremony... and make us look like fools..

Actually that would be cool if it happens... anyway we are confident and we are exhibiting it....

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 10 Sep 2020 00:24

nam wrote:We could have done away with the whole dance and song of induction ceremony with RM & French DM coming in. Not in the midst of a potential war.

All we need is Chinis kicking off a fight, with our Rafale having to do a emergency take off right in the middle of the ceremony... and make us look like fools..

You dream too much
Rafale will not be the first respondent that too with only 5 aircrafts.
Cancelling ceremonies and functions just because chinese viruses are at our border is called dhoti shivering
Are we dhoti shivering?

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 10 Sep 2020 00:25

As per ToI, CCP army has lined up tanks in Chusul area and doing firing exercises on their side, these sounds can be heard by our troops.

It is one of two reasons or both
- sending a signal before FM meet, to force India‘s hand to accept a defeat by threat
- actually preparing to attack our positions, why waste your ammunition - may be inexperienced young soldiers need some training

But one thing is clear - war can start anytime now.

I pray for the well being of our brave hearts. It’s the time for the Tibetan friends to stand and fight along with their Indian brothers in the arms!!

Jai hind!! har har mahadev !! Jai mahakali!!

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 10 Sep 2020 00:38

Kakarat wrote:
nam wrote:We could have done away with the whole dance and song of induction ceremony with RM & French DM coming in. Not in the midst of a potential war.

All we need is Chinis kicking off a fight, with our Rafale having to do a emergency take off right in the middle of the ceremony... and make us look like fools..
You dream too much
Rafale will not be the first respondent that too with only 5 aircrafts.
Cancelling ceremonies and functions just because chinese viruses are at our border is called dhoti shivering
Are we dhoti shivering?

Is the MKI a dud? Counting on 3 Rafale fighters plus 2 trainers over a fleet of nearly 300 operational MKIs seems puzzling if not downright stupid. What can 3 Rafales accomplish that 300 MKIs can’t?

This Rafale jaap is very confusing? What happened on Feb 27th that the Rafale has become IAF’s savior?

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 10 Sep 2020 00:55

Dilbu wrote:Don't allow transgressions, maintain utter discipline: Army instructs ground commanders
New Delhi [India], September 9 (ANI): Engaged in a stand-off with the Army, the Indian Army has given instructions that the Chinese should not be allowed to transgress at any cost and also directed that troops should maintain utter discipline while protecting Indian territory. The field commanders have also been told that while patrolling their respective areas of responsibility or accomplishing any task, there should not be any extra display of strength or overuse of force, government sources told ANI. On the situation along the border, the sources said that the Chinese Army is carrying out firing practice well within territory controlled by them in Tibet but it can be heard on the Indian side at many locations along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) from Ladakh to Arunachal Pradesh.

Those seem like very contradictory and confusing directives, difficult for someone in the heat of action to follow. I hope that this is just a PR leak and commanders on the ground are not actually being given such instructions from the MOD.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 10 Sep 2020 00:56

The PLA will wait until it gets a proper assessment of Indian forces and reaction times. Until then more pointless talks at foreign & defense minister level. The window for war is Oct-Nov as it is the time of least precipitation in the region.

VKumar · Post by **VKumar** » 10 Sep 2020 01:04

Waiting for their puppet Pakistan to open the western front.

Pakistan trying to wriggle out know that if they open any front, POK will be gone

chola · Post by **chola** » 10 Sep 2020 01:06

RKumar wrote:As per ToI, CCP army has lined up tanks in Chusul area and doing firing exercises on their side, these sounds can be heard by our troops.

It is one of two reasons or both
- sending a signal before FM meet, to force India‘s hand to accept a defeat by threat
- actually preparing to attack our positions, why waste your ammunition - may be inexperienced young soldiers need some training

But one thing is clear - war can start anytime now.

I pray for the well being of our brave hearts. It’s the time for the Tibetan friends to stand and fight along with their Indian brothers in the arms!!

Jai hind!! har har mahadev !! Jai mahakali!!

Sounds too much like braying of a donkey to warn off predators. If they are keen to strike then they would just go off. Tigers hunt and kill silently. Either a fient and they strike sneakily elsewhere or they are desperately trying to "scare" us and has no will to actually go kinetic.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 10 Sep 2020 01:23

If the situation goes kinetic this is once in lifetime opportunity for Tibetans to get back some part(or full) of their motherland and hope they dont let go off this opportunity

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 10 Sep 2020 01:28

I personally think, last stop is FM meeting if nothing comes out from there. Chances are high that CCP army will try to do some stupidity on some posts.

As per Shiv Aroor, we are dominating the finger 4 hights.

So CCP army is getting desperate and clear instructions are issued to our local commanders - do whatever you need to do to defend the line without provoking CCP from our side. In simple terms don’t Start the provocation but if our guys are threatened or harmed - they can take ALL decisions to protect themselves. No permissions required from Delhi, Central command, Army HQ or Leh HQ. I don’t remember it ever happened before on any border at this scale during peace time.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Sep 2020 01:42

Most of these presswalas are bokwas don't bother reading them.

The instructions are your immediate superior if needed. Else its your discretion.
GOI not worried about accidental war.
They trust the soldiers.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 10 Sep 2020 01:47

IA surely has some recording devices/personnel on the ground to collect video evidence of any Chinese missteps, to debrief, analyse, keep records etc.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 10 Sep 2020 01:48

Let’s hope for the best ... we trust our guys but not young emperors!!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Sep 2020 01:50

Each flag level meeting is extensively debrief to detect nuances or changes also I think.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 10 Sep 2020 01:51

https://twitter.com/Arunima24/status/13 ... 2303278081
As per this report, after our actions on the North of Pangong, yesterday the PLA sent 1500-2000 from the valley to positions on the ridge (mentions F3) - I'm assuming this is in addition to the troops already there. We are "matching" their force. Looks like the Chinese are getting desperate to get some leverage back and have started to throw the kitchen sink.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 10 Sep 2020 02:02

PLA Commanders' necks must be on the line now, they have 3 options: Rush headlong and die, surrender to IA, or retreat only to get court martialed and then die in ignominy.

Deserting is not an option since the whole region is itself a desert.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 10 Sep 2020 02:18

abhik wrote:https://twitter.com/Arunima24/status/13 ... 2303278081
As per this report, after our actions on the North of Pangong, yesterday the PLA sent 1500-2000 from the valley to positions on the ridge (mentions F3) - I'm assuming this is in addition to the troops already there. We are "matching" their force. Looks like the Chinese are getting desperate to get some leverage back and have started to throw the kitchen sink.

Doesn't make sense. Finger 3 would put the PLA west of the ITBP camp. Finger 4 makes more sense.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eg_QZ1VU8AI ... ame=medium
https://static.toiimg.com/photo/imgsize ... 489167.jpg

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 10 Sep 2020 02:25

RajaRudra wrote: FM S Jaishankar twitter timeline is full of high profile meeting in the recent days (Tajik, Kyrgyz Republic), coupling with QUAD thing. Some offensive can be expected from diplomatic side also. May be time for Tibet to get at least get some recognition is nearing.

Recent Meeting In Iran should also be having some near term goal..what could be?

There’s not many diplomatic cards that can be played in the short term other than what’s already done - I.e. Big purchases to buy loyalty.

Increasingly US and allies are seeing PRC as an equivalent to Germany in WWII... I.e. a country that needs to be dealt with seriously. Australia and Japan are the most serious.

Sanju · Post by **Sanju** » 10 Sep 2020 02:31

After the first 15 years of Indian independence, India has always had good (political) leadership during wartime. Be it '65 (Shastri ji), '71 (Indira ji) or '99 (Atal ji). That (strong Political Leadership) was the only gap as far as the Indian Armed Forces were concerned.

The YOs have always led from the front and have been fully backed by their COs. The men are really the best one can ask for - well trained and willing to give their best for the Nation (Naam, Namak aur Nishaan).

In the current scenario, the Indian Armed Forces know that the Political leadership has their backs. India is in good hands at the borders & at the helm.

The two wars in that decade & half, have put an ever increasing cost on us. It maybe time to settle the account. Veera Bhogya Vasundhara!!!

PS: The victorious trend was started 55 years ago this month. 1965 was a very crucial war for us, as a people, culture & civilization. The same thing could also be said about the current time.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 10 Sep 2020 02:33

Prem Kumar wrote:
Does this include the use of artillery & tanks?

Yes - which is why both equipment have played a big role in recent operations. Reactively given we are operating defensive. That can change To proactive depending on situation.

My suspicion is that the Chinese, coming worse off in any hand-to-hand or infantry-to-infantry engagement, will resort to artillery. They might try to do to us what we did to Pakis in Kargil. That might be 2 steps up the escalation ladder. It might even be timed to happen on or soon after Jaishankar-Wang meeting.

Situation can spiral quickly.

Question is: are our commanders given authority to go several notches up the escalation ladder? Example: what about bringing in the IAF if the Chinese go for artillery?

This planning was completed prior to the 29/30 aug operations. The answer to this depends on what PRC do next ... it is likely that it will be slow escalation before IAF is used.. I think in winter time IAF will have a bigger role

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 10 Sep 2020 02:43

One thing is for sure the Chinese thugs army doesn't ha e forests or residential cover like the beggar slaves have so their artillery positions are out in the open for us to hit them quickly

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 10 Sep 2020 02:51

Mort Walker wrote:
abhik wrote:https://twitter.com/Arunima24/status/13 ... 2303278081
As per this report, after our actions on the North of Pangong, yesterday the PLA sent 1500-2000 from the valley to positions on the ridge (mentions F3) - I'm assuming this is in addition to the troops already there. We are "matching" their force. Looks like the Chinese are getting desperate to get some leverage back and have started to throw the kitchen sink.
Doesn't make sense. Finger 3 would put the PLA west of the ITBP camp. Finger 4 makes more sense.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eg_QZ1VU8AI ... ame=medium
https://static.toiimg.com/photo/imgsize ... 489167.jpg

That lady is DDM who probably doesn't have the foggiest idea of where the LAC actually is, do not waste time on analyzing info from those sorts of sources.

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 10 Sep 2020 02:59

So chinese built a road (from Ane La?) passing through the highest points of f4 to lower points where they can pitch tents but left the highest points open for Indians to occupy?

So now the chinese tents on F4 cannot be supplied through F4 anymore. They have to be supplied from the beach by walking or ATVs.

In general, the chinese's strategy seems to be to occupy a relatively flat area where they can build infrastructure for a relatively comfortable stay.

https://earth.google.com/web/@33.740113 ... 165226t,0r

Zoom in real close and see. The chicoms seem to have built enough infrastructure for hundreds if not thousands of people running along a length of over 300 meters. How are they supplying them there if we interdicted their F4 path? How do they plan to maintain those forces in winter? If they move out in winter, leaving only a skeleton crew, our soldiers could probably creep up to them and blow them up.

But how did India allow all those camps to come up? We could have done what we did at Doklam at stopped them from building them in the first place. Things could have been simpler if we did that. Now they can't go back, we can't let them stay. Its almost like we laid a trap for them.

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 10 Sep 2020 03:09

Holy F**k, They are like ants every where.

Between F4 and F8 on the north shores of Pongang Tso. Are they planning to build another Beijing there?

https://earth.google.com/web/@33.736337 ... 216303t,0r

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 10 Sep 2020 03:17

What if China says you cant kill so many of us even though it is possible and you will hesitate to bomb us to due to casualties. It will be a humanitarian crisis and will force us into a larger war. So you have to back off ?! I see no other purpose for amassing so many troops there - a human shield essentially...

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 10 Sep 2020 03:25

V_Raman wrote:What if China says you cant kill so many of us even though it is possible and you will hesitate to bomb us to due to casualties. It will be a humanitarian crisis and will force us into a larger war. So you have to back off ?!

The world is not particularly fond of chinese right now. Anyway, I doubt humanitarian crisis applies to soldiers.

I want to see how they manage to stay there in winter.

williams · Post by **williams** » 10 Sep 2020 03:27

hanumadu wrote:So chinese built a road (from Ane La?) passing through the highest points of f4 to lower points where they can pitch tents but left the highest points open for Indians to occupy?

So now the chinese tents on F4 cannot be supplied through F4 anymore. They have to be supplied from the beach by walking or ATVs.

In general, the chinese's strategy seems to be to occupy a relatively flat area where they can build infrastructure for a relatively comfortable stay.

https://earth.google.com/web/@33.740113 ... 165226t,0r

Zoom in real close and see. The chicoms seem to have built enough infrastructure for hundreds if not thousands of people running along a length of over 300 meters. How are they supplying them there if we interdicted their F4 path? How do they plan to maintain those forces in winter? If they move out in winter, leaving only a skeleton crew, our soldiers could probably creep up to them and blow them up.

But how did India allow all those camps to come up? We could have done what we did at Doklam at stopped them from building them in the first place. Things could have been simpler if we did that. Now they can't go back, we can't let them stay. Its almost like we laid a trap for them.

Yea occupying those heights means doing some hard work. Plus I don't think they expected IA to occupy those heights. When the balloon goes up, All the tents and infrastructure will be cluster bombed. Put those CBU 105s to use

Sanju · Post by **Sanju** » 10 Sep 2020 03:30

V_Raman wrote:What if China says you cant kill so many of us even though it is possible and you will hesitate to bomb us to due to casualties. It will be a humanitarian crisis and will force us into a larger war. So you have to back off ?! I see no other purpose for amassing so many troops there - a human shield essentially...

"Human shield" with people is the point of soldiering, it is raisin dieter to be at the forefront. Either they fight or ask for "Jaipuri Choley".

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 10 Sep 2020 03:31

I had a vendor meeting today where we causally mentioned about vaccine. Then came complaints about how SARS/MERS/H1N1/Corona came from China every other year. Right now, one guy said there is a plague there. I tired to be diplomatic and say "you know ... virus can originate anywhere but keeping secret is very wrong". But no one was in a mood to tolerate any more BS from Chinese scumbags. They are outright anti-chinese right now. Any war will push more hatred towards chinese. In case of war, if T blows up couple of Chinese ships, there will be immediate couple of points added to his tally.

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 10 Sep 2020 03:33

I dont think India can use cluster bombs unless China uses it. Ground forces - yes anything goes. But air armaments - they will match China on heavy weapons IMO

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 10 Sep 2020 03:46

https://earth.google.com/web/@33.736337 ... 216303t,0r

https://earth.google.com/web/@33.740113 ... 165226t,0r

Those structures are not there on July 29, 2019 google earth historical data but are there in latest images taken on June 14, 2020.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 10 Sep 2020 04:11

Sanju wrote:After the first 15 years of Indian independence, India has always had good (political) leadership during wartime. Be it '65 (Shastri ji), '71 (Indira ji) or '99 (Atal ji). That (strong Political Leadership) was the only gap as far as the Indian Armed Forces were concerned.

Really - Shastri. What about Haji Pir Pass?
71 - perhaps
99 - perhaps

Sanju wrote:The YOs have always led from the front and have been fully backed by their COs. The men are really the best one can ask for - well trained and willing to give their best for the Nation (Naam, Namak aur Nishaan).

A quote I have also heard from senior officers has been that our generals have let down the YOs be it in peace time or war time!!

Sanju · Post by **Sanju** » 10 Sep 2020 04:14

ks_sachin wrote:
Sanju wrote:After the first 15 years of Indian independence, India has always had good (political) leadership during wartime. Be it '65 (Shastri ji), '71 (Indira ji) or '99 (Atal ji). That (strong Political Leadership) was the only gap as far as the Indian Armed Forces were concerned.
Really - Shastri. What about Haji Pir Pass?
71 - perhaps
99 - perhaps

Sanju wrote:The YOs have always led from the front and have been fully backed by their COs. The men are really the best one can ask for - well trained and willing to give their best for the Nation (Naam, Namak aur Nishaan).
A quote I have also heard from senior officers has been that our generals have let down the YOs be it in peace time or war time!!

Are you putting Shastri ji in the same bucket as JLN? I can come back with criticism of other two too. Understand the context. He opened the IB front. And what was the point of adding the quote?

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 10 Sep 2020 04:23

OT alert guys keep to the thread

Elsewhere am suffering from a mild case of Dhoti shiver, am sure Hanumanji will help our forces out there