India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

[V_Raman]

truly massa style. we have a big military - showing it off is not bad - well done! wish we had purchased the final batch of C17s when they were available...

[nachiket]

Well someone is definitely taking psyops and perception battle seriously now. Actually they have been through this entire episode. Started off with the videos being leaked back in May about our troops pushing back the Chinese. Later on came conveniently leaked images of Mig-29's and other jets at Leh, followed by the LCH prototypes etc. Then the news about SFF being used openly for the first time. Now this. I love it!

[Mort Walker]

https://twitter.com/neeraj_rajput/statu ... 5320175616

GoI is sending out US style mobilizations images. The tweet above has a video of a IA logistics node with hundreds of trucks.

There are images of Leh with C17 dropping off supplies. IA is showing winter items, that is to be used by the troops.

Showing to the Chini we are getting ready for winter, josh me.. now it is your turn.

Truely TFTA!

Lost count of the number of trucks zipping by and the numbers parked behind

It looks like the Major General is speaking to reporters. Probably newspapers. This is not a leak, but to send a clear message to the doubters and the enemy. Some 18 trucks passed by in 1'18" at a rate of about 65-70 Km/hr with sufficient spacing. It appears trucks can travel comfortably on that road at 100 Km/hr during the day. There are at least 300 trucks in the background not including the IA ambulances which are at least 20+. Those ambulances look more like mobile wounded treatment capable as opposed to simply evacuation to a field hospital. They are larger in size and have some sort air conditioning system or perhaps capable of providing oxygen to troops at high elevation.

[pushkar.bhat]

One message that we have sent to China is that any attempt to change status quo by force will mean that we will wipe out their entire deployment in Spanggur bowl. Their will be no prisoners.

[Suraj]

Regarding Sun Tzu reference earlier, yes it’s true that book is mostly mental floss now. However, deceit - a term that in western and even Indian English usage - has negative connotations, is not seen that way by China. Winning through trickery, bluster and intimidation is a form of deceit the Chinese take great pride in. “I tricked them and won this prize/profit” is a matter of boasting in China, seen with admiration rather than disgust.

It’s up to us to force them out of their bullying comfort zone and compel them to figure out how to act next, knowing we are prepared for what will doubtless be a bloody conflict for both sides, if they’re sufficiently motivated to follow up school yard bully behavior with actual teeth when pushed back. However the likely consequence of limited war is a bloody stalemate, a situation that’s a strategic win for us. Or they’ll blink, offer downhill skiing claims like ‘PRC is statesmanlike’ and otherwise vigorously pat themselves on the head in self congratulation as they withdraw.

[chola]

Regarding Sun Tzu reference earlier, yes it’s true that book is mostly mental floss now. However, deceit - a term that in western and even Indian English usage - has negative connotations, is not seen that way by China. Winning through trickery, bluster and intimidation is a form of deceit the Chinese take great pride in. “I tricked them and won this prize/profit” is a matter of boasting in China, seen with admiration rather than disgust.

It’s up to us to force them out of their bullying comfort zone and compel them to figure out how to act next, knowing we are prepared for what will doubtless be a bloody conflict for both sides, if they’re sufficiently motivated to follow up school yard bully behavior with actual teeth when pushed back. Or they’ll blink, offer downhill skiing claims like ‘PRC is statesmanlike’ and otherwise vigorously pat themselves ion the head in self congratulation as they withdraw.

It is also part of their mercantile and decidedly non-warrior nature.

There is this very famous proverb in China that is the epitomy of Cheen as a non-warrior civilization. Their society do not send its best men into the army. Japan had to escape this particular aspect of Chini culture:
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/culture/20 ... ian-ideas/

For pre-modern Japan, China was civilization itself, and Confucianism was what made it so — “perhaps the most powerful political ideology yet conceived by the human race,” writes Watanabe. To devotees, its “rites and music,” “five relationships” and “five virtues” are what separate us from the beasts and make us human. To doubters — and the doubts grew as Japan’s stagnation became more evident — it was a retarding force. “Ours is a world in which living things are confined and regimented as if dead things,” wrote one exasperated samurai-scholar in 1838.

...

Japan was a warrior society; China was not. To a Chinese proverb asserting“Good men do not make soldiers just as good iron does not make nails,” a Japanese one counters, “As the cherry among blossoms, so the warrior among men.” True, Tokugawa Japan was a warrior society “at peace,” but warrior peace is not Confucian peace.

To fight and shed blood is not so good. To make money and things is better.

So faced with such an enemy do you:

1) engage him in a race to build infrastructure which he loves to do

or

2) make him fight and shed blood which he loathes to do?

[Guddu]

"To fight and shed blood is not so good. To make money and things is better.

So faced with such an enemy do you:

1) engage him in a race to build infrastructure which he loves to do

or

2) make him fight and shed blood which he loathes to do?"

important insight by Chola

[darshan]

And also make him loose business, relationships, etc. and force in isolation. Then they can continue to play tricks on themselves and gloat about it.

[Dilbu]

Here is the confirmation on what many on BRF were suspecting for a long time.
Before Moscow pact, Indian & Chinese troops fired 100-200 rounds on Pangong north bank

Before External Affairs Minister S Jaishankar and his Chinese counterpart Wang Yi reached an agreement in Moscow on September 10 to dial down tensions along the Line of Actual Control in Ladakh, the heightened tensions led to a firing incident between Indian and Chinese troops on the north bank of Pangong Tso, far more intense than the firing of warning shots in the Chushul sub-sector, The Indian Express has learnt.

A top government officer, aware of the details, said this incident took place during the jockeying for dominating the Fingers on the north bank of the lake. According to the officer, “100 to 200 shots” were fired in the air by both sides on the ridgeline where Finger 3 and Finger 4 merge before moving north as one ridge.

Both India and China had issued statements on the firing incident in the Chushul sub-sector on September 7 which took place on a feature called Mukpari Heights — officials said this was the first time in 45 years that shots were fired along the LAC.

Till date, neither side has officially said anything about the firing on the north bank which took place after the Chushul incident, and was bigger in scale.

[Pratyush]

we are missing understanding about the angst about removal of Art 370 from China. I dont understand why they feel that way - but it is coming up repeatedly. we thought removal is to stabilize the areas we hold and develop/integrate it better. Do they really think that we will make a play for all of aksai chin in the near future? Or did they get caught up in paki noise and are fighting their war?

Well this was quite predictable on hindsight. Why?

Revocation of 370 signifies that India is no longer held by the chair tied to the horse. That being the case they know that Aksai chin is a place where not a blade of grass grows. Which means that they know in case of any push by the Indian army they will not be able to contest that move. Due to nearly impossible logistical position.

So by coming up to the LAC they are thinking that the Spector of repeat of 62 will put the fear of God in India's head.

Which if read together with the Gen Pannu interview makes some sense to me.

Having said so, Nathu la should have told them that Indian army is not a push over in 67. But surprisingly it didn't.

So here we are. PRC has no option. Either attack or lose face.

[pushkar.bhat]

Remember is you impose heavy costs the Chinese just quit. Their internal narrative will be “we have taught India a lesson and so having done that and imposed heavy economic costs are withdrawing since China and the party are statesmanlike.”

Xi picked up a wrong adversary to declare himself a as emperor of Asia. He is now getting kicked down the road like a tin can.

[chetonzz]

This Sun Tzu for war is like our Kamsutra for jhanging - attractive for West due to its titillating verbiage from an exotic culture, but shrugged off by seasoned practitioners of both arts as impractical, pedantic and sometimes downright goofy.

Maybe the chinese should start some Sun Tzu themed hill resort like our Hardwar circuit for mannina-MAGA goras who want to learn Art of War and shoot some NORINCO crap. We can provide Malana Cream (for a premium) to help them figure it all out.

eg: "He who wins without fighting is awesome". Yes, for lottery tickets, not for war - you still need to shove heads of enemies into the sand.

that analogy made my day

[manjgu]

Regarding Sun Tzu reference earlier, yes it’s true that book is mostly mental floss now. However, deceit - a term that in western and even Indian English usage - and decidedly non-warrior nature.

There is this very famous proverb in China that is the epitomy of Cheen as a non-warrior civilization. Their society do not send its best men into the army. Japan had to escape this particular aspect of Chini culture:
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/culture/20 ... ian-ideas/


To fight and shed blood is not so good. To make money and things is better.

So faced with such an enemy do you:

1) engage him in a race to build infrastructure which he loves to do

or

2) make him fight and shed blood which he loathes to do?

well let us not be fools to say chini are a non warrior civilization. it was chini army in 1962. we said the same thing about tamils and learnt the hard way. Does india send its best into the army?? not since last many decades if u ask any person connected with recruiting process. so let us not fool ourselves with this warrior / non warrior business. Its true that chini have invested too much into propaganda and winning by not fighting a war ( whats wrong with that strategy, may i ask. Its worked for them till date but not anymore i would imagine). if they can achieve their national goals with coercion/threats , its a good strategy for them. Folks on BRF complain, well chini copied that, stole this etc. what prevents us from doing the same to further our national aims? we have not been able to subdue even a pip squeak of a country like pakistan inspite of our so called battle hardened army/warrior class. any sensible country should fight only as a last resort.

[KLNMurthy]

Here is the confirmation on what many on BRF were suspecting for a long time.
Before Moscow pact, Indian & Chinese troops fired 100-200 rounds on Pangong north bank

Was the outcome of the Jai Shankar- Yi meeting a “pact”? If seemed more like a recitation of platitudes and good intentions, which the Chinese promptly lied about.

I don’t think DDM knows what a pact is at all. Each passing day, my contempt for these useless rats only grows.

[Anujan]

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... s?from=mdr

China is believed to have brought forward more troops in the past week along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in Ladakh, taking its total troop deployment to approximately 52,000. Of these, 10,000 troops have been deployed on the southern bank of the Pangong Tso that has witnessed hectic military activity since the manoeuvres of August 29-30.

They are laying fiber optic cables, perhaps in an effort to mask EM transmissions/interception. Plus there is a large force now.

Looking at one last lightning attack before end november?

[Dilbu]

Amid LAC row, China starts construction activities along Uttrakhand border

Amid simmering tension between India and China along Line and Actual Control (LAC) in Eastern Ladakh, some suspicious Chinese activities have been noticed along Uttrakhand border.

Sources told Zee Media that a hut-like structure has been spotted recently near Tinkar-Lipu pass of Nepal in Chinese side. It is believed China is engaged in construction activity in Chinese side General Area Jojo village Champa Maidan. Notably, the Jojo village is around -8 kms from Tinkar-Lipu pass of Nepal.

[williams]

Here is the confirmation on what many on BRF were suspecting for a long time.
Before Moscow pact, Indian & Chinese troops fired 100-200 rounds on Pangong north bank

Was the outcome of the Jai Shankar- Yi meeting a “pact”? If seemed more like a recitation of platitudes and good intentions, which the Chinese promptly lied about.

I don’t think DDM knows what a pact is at all. Each passing day, my contempt for these useless rats only grows.

Yea some sort of masala news - recycling all old information into something that is incoherent intimidation and aggression have stopped and shots were fired in the air. What sort of news is this? It is new low even for iE standards.

[amdavadi]

https://twitter.com/i/status/1306074496529502216

[pankajs]

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... s?from=mdr

China is believed to have brought forward more troops in the past week along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in Ladakh, taking its total troop deployment to approximately 52,000. Of these, 10,000 troops have been deployed on the southern bank of the Pangong Tso that has witnessed hectic military activity since the manoeuvres of August 29-30.

They are laying fiber optic cables, perhaps in an effort to mask EM transmissions/interception. Plus there is a large force now.

Looking at one last lightning attack before end november?

On the Southern bank of Pangang tso or around Spanggur tso?

For what I remember, the holding area at Yula and further east are not connected to the LAC to the Southern bank of Pangang tso or Spanggur tso in any meaningful way? Certainly not enough to mount a lightning strike through what looks like trail at Yula pass or along the southern bank of Pangang tso.

We meed better defence reporting.

[Dilbu]

Nikkei Asian Review
India moves tons of winter supplies to disputed China border

LEH, India (Reuters) -- From deploying mules to large transport aircraft, India's military has activated its entire logistics network to transport supplies to thousands of troops for a harsh winter along a bitterly disputed Himalayan border with China.

In recent months, one of India's biggest military logistics exercises in years has brought vast quantities of ammunition, equipment, fuel, winter supplies and food into Ladakh, a region bordering Tibet that India administers as a union territory, officials said.

"All the supplies that we need have already been pushed to wherever they are required," said Major General Arvind Kapoor, chief of staff of the Indian army's 14 Corps.

On Tuesday morning, a succession of the Indian air force's large transport aircraft landed at a forward base in Ladakh, carrying men and materials, as fighter jets roared overhead.

Soldiers with backpacks streamed out and were checked for COVID-19 symptoms at a transit facility, where they awaited further transport.

The materials are stored across a network of logistics hubs.

At a fuel, oil and lubricant depot near Leh, Ladakh's main city, a hillside was covered with clusters of green drums.

At storage facilities at a nearby supply depot, boxes and sacks of ration -- including pistachios, instant noodles and Indian curries -- stood in tall piles. At another base near Leh, tents, heaters, winter clothing and high-altitude equipment lay stacked.

From these depots, the materials are pushed to logistics nodes by trucks, helicopters and, in some particularly difficult parts, mules, officials said.

"In a place like Ladakh, operations logistics is of huge importance," said Kapoor. "In the last 20 years, we have mastered it."

[rpartha]

Cant help but think of the similarities... In Harry Potter, Voldemort designates his own enemy when he tried to kill Harry Potter (according to prophecy)... just like China did to India.... I hope world will rally around India to take on China...

[pankajs]

Yesterdin I watched a video from Cnn-IBN and it seemed to suggest


1. We are building up for supplies to last 10 months.

2. There is a plan to keep one Ladakh road one all throughout winter by deploying adequate snow clearing equipment.

So we have adequate backup and a backup for the backup. Plus there is the airbridge for emergencies.

[Dilbu]

The writer is a retired Major-General of the Indian Army.
A battle on China’s hands

Another fact which the CCP-controlled Chinese media will hide is that Chinese Han soldiers are at a major disadvantage in Ladakh. Sixty per cent of the Chinese army consists of conscripts recruited for a limited tenure from rural China. They join to gain benefits in future employment, not for fighting wars. These soldiers can never survive the winters of Tibet and Ladakh. Historically, the PLA sends Chinese soldiers back to mainland China from November to April every year, leaving only locally recruited Border Defence Regiments and militia to patrol the LAC.

Expecting Han Chinese soldiers to stay back and survive winters, challenging a hardened Indian army, for whom such tenures are routine is almost impossible. It is for this reason that China is not desirous of dragging the current standoff into the winter. India, on the other hand is in no rush to end the standoff, unless it concludes on its own terms. It has already begun preparing for a long haul.

Another factor is that in 1962, the PLA could accept casualties, as the nation was still to push through the one-child norm, which commenced in 1979. Nor were there multiple media networks where casualty figures were demanded. The scenario is vastly different today. Each Chinese soldier, if a bachelor, has six adults, parents and grandparents, who have pampered him and would be devastated by his loss. If married, dependents only increase. Hence, China cannot accept body bags in the manner they did in the 1960s. Despite all technology and high-end weapons, common to both sides, ultimately their soldiers would need to assault Indian defences. Further, China last fought a war with Vietnam in 1979, where it was forced to withdraw in shame.

Expecting soft, inexperienced and family-dependent troops to assault a voluntary army, comprising of battle hardened, trained soldiers is asking for the moon. Releasing Kargil and Siachen videos, as part of counter-propaganda warfare, would make the Chinese realise what the current Indian army is made of. Chinese propaganda videos of exercise firing would pale in comparison to the accurate Indian firing during the Kargil war against the heights occupied by Pakistani troops.

The major problem in the ongoing propaganda game is that global social media sites are banned in China and their own are difficult to penetrate. Obtaining a gateway into these sites and pushing forth Indian forces’ capability could impact morale of Chinese public and forces, which are currently being fed one-sided inputs. This avenue must be explored and exploited.

[Dilbu]

China deploys 10k troops on south bank of Pangong Tso, 50 battalions stationed in Ladakh LAC

NEW DELHI: China is believed to have brought forward more troops in the past week along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in Ladakh, taking its total troop deployment to approximately 52,000. Of these, 10,000 troops have been deployed on the southern bank of the Pangong Tso that has witnessed hectic military activity since the manoeuvres of August 29-30.

According to this assessment, the number of battalions deployed in Ladakh by People Liberation Army (PLA) has gone up from 35 in August to 50 in September. Each battalion consists of 1,000-1,200 soldiers. On September 7, PLA troops attempted to come dangerously close to one of the forward positions of Indian Army, which resulted in shots being fired in the air.

[Ashokk]

LAC face-off: Indian Army busts myth of PLA's might

After the Pentagon's annual report on China declared the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) as "the largest navy in the world" and highlighted its increasing capabilities, the former Director of National Security Council Secretariat of India, Tara Kartha observed that such forecasts and warnings did not affect Indian decision to counter Chinese belligerence in Ladakh.
"For India, warnings of Chinese aggressiveness were 'superfluous' given the ongoing conflict. Forecasts of superior Chinese power did not affect Delhi's decision to meet the threat head-on, something that other countries need to acknowledge. China is certainly a power to reckon with, but it is not quite the dragon that the Pentagon or Beijing paints it to be," Kartha quipped.
"There was this argument that India being a $2-trillion economy and China being five times that meant that China had a major advantage. They have a much stronger military force, much bigger economy, bigger military spending etc so India is no match for China - that myth has been busted. Concerted action on the part of India has yielded results," said Srikanth Kondapalli, Chinese affairs professor at Jawaharlal Nehru University.

[nam]

Let us not make the mistake of thinking that Chinis cannot do violence. You don't see European style attempts to colonize, because the Chinese have enough people within their own region for a century long civil wars. Just like our kings & regions were busy in fighting each other.

Even today Chinese are very aggressive towards other Chinese. You have videos where police officers are choke slamming a woman still holding her child in her arms. Not to mention the various state of police detains..

Japan started the invasion of China in 1937. Took them years to subdue the Chinese mainland, at tremendous cost.

It doesn't matter if the Chinese can win or not. The CCP has enough ideological power to create zombies, who are ready to sacrifice themselves, like they did in Korea or Vietnam.

[nam]

The show and awe of showing off our logistics for winter sends out two message to the Chinis:

1. we will drag you in to winter

2. even if you do a "localized rapid offensive with sun tzu ketchup" and win, we will still drag you in to the winter.

The Chinese have to guard against an Indian winter offensive..capturing heights like in Spangur gap.

[V_Raman]

they are taking the deployment to a level where any firing by India would result in a humanitarian crisis - they are creating a massive suicide squad that will make it impossible for India to fire out of sheer compassion for human lives!

[rajpa]

The winter will most certainly be a Stalingrad moment for the Xitler mafia.

Their logistics will be severely tested, more than ours.
They do not have experience of supplying so many troops in that area, which we do.
Bringing in more troops from their side is effectively sending their own soldiers into a potential death trap.

We can plan for a stalemate and ensure their logistics gets a much needed push down the ravines, ensure that the dragon goes back whimpering, its flames all blown out in the cold winter of Ladakh.

Their best face saver strategy will be to downhill ski like their ironbrothels and leave with their pink tents before the winter sets in.

[nam]

The Chini logistics will be fine. It doesn't snow in Tibet during winters. They will be able to get the stuff over to LAC. Ofcourse they will have causalities on their men due to in-experience.

The issue is not logistics, but keeping huge number of troops on 3400KM border, instead of facing the TFTA Taiwanese & US on sunny East coast.

We just need to keep mobilizing at various points within the 3400KM line to force them to induct more troops..

[Rishirishi]

they are taking the deployment to a level where any firing by India would result in a humanitarian crisis - they are creating a massive suicide squad that will make it impossible for India to fire out of sheer compassion for human lives!

In war, no one gives a "shit". Just think of the ships that were sunk. large PLA deployments in small areas, are very easy to target. If they run, they will have problems.

Chinese actions are puzzling, did they actually think IA would be intimidated by huge deployment of soldiers in small isolated areas? Either there is something that we do not understand, or the PLA may actually consist of an Army, with officers from the school bench.

It is 40 years since they were involved in a armed conflict, None of the officers are probably around today. PLA does not train and share experience with other armies. Maybe they do some training with TSP. But here too, there is going to be a huge problem with the language. At best the Chinese can exchange some very basic facts.

[pushkar.bhat]

Deleted as requested by Jamwal

[jamwal]

Please don't post stuff from these kind of rumour mongering fanboi accounts outside your own twitter account. Crap posted by accounts like this bring IQ level of everyone down.

[ks_sachin]

The winter will most certainly be a Stalingrad moment for the Xitler mafia.

Their logistics will be severely tested, more than ours.
They do not have experience of supplying so many troops in that area, which we do.
Bringing in more troops from their side is effectively sending their own soldiers into a potential death trap.

What is the factual evidence for your claims?

[ks_sachin]

The Chini logistics will be fine. It doesn't snow in Tibet during winters. They will be able to get the stuff over to LAC. Ofcourse they will have causalities on their men due to in-experience.

The issue is not logistics, but keeping huge number of troops on 3400KM border, instead of facing the TFTA Taiwanese & US on sunny East coast.

We just need to keep mobilizing at various points within the 3400KM line to force them to induct more troops..

The entire 3400Km is not contested. Also in the contested areas what are the potential areas that the IA could take a proactive Spangurr like action and dominate?

[jamwal]

The winter will most certainly be a Stalingrad moment for the Xitler mafia.

Their logistics will be severely tested, more than ours.
They do not have experience of supplying so many troops in that area, which we do.
Bringing in more troops from their side is effectively sending their own soldiers into a potential death trap.

What is the factual evidence for your claims?

I believe Tibet generally has much less snow compared to Indian supply lines through Keylong-Leh and Srinagar-Leh road. There is no Rohtang La bottle neck from this year due to new tunnel, but rest of the terrain through Lahaul and past Baralacha La is very treacherous.

Srinagar to Leh road can be kept opened with some effort but keeping troops supplied during 5-6 months of winter snow, avlanches and landslides in these unstable mountains is not an easy task for anyone. Thoise and Leh airports will probably see a lot of traffic this year.


Thanks Pushkar.Bhat

[Philip]

The point about a "deadline" to the Hans that I suggested,is to defeat their plan of making us pay a v.hefty price for long deployment of troops,logistics and mobilisation.They must pay for their intransigence v.heavily.If India recognises Taiwan,other nations will follow. Banning the PRC from India lock,stock and barrel, will lose them $60+ B in the annual trade deficit alone.This will enable us to weild economic clout with nations replacing a goodly part of the imports from the PRC too.We will draw away potential client states of thf Hans who may be worried about the debt trap,plus boosting local manufacture as the PM intends.

The military consequences have no deadline,they will come at our time and places of choosing.

[madhu]

a very good discussion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FYnbPnYB18&t=3381s

The Ladakh Standoff and the Next Phase of China-India Relations

i always agree with prof. MD Nalapat. why we don't get into some army pact with US just like what Indra Gandhi did with Russia. we need to fight our own war but we need good backing also.

[rajpa]

We have figured out most of the difficulties in keeping the troops supplied through winter through deployments in places like Siachen, over decades. Things from engine oils to special aircraft modifications etc which Chinese are yet to learn.

So it is reasonable to expect that it will take the Chinese a few winters to get to a stable state. Meanwhile, having a large force deployed there, with hopes of being able to deliver stuff to them through drones etc is a pipe dream. This winter will be a massacre for the Chinese. They may never recover from this one.

[jamwal]

a very good discussion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FYnbPnYB18&t=3381s

The Ladakh Standoff and the Next Phase of China-India Relations

i always agree with prof. MD Nalapat. why we don't get into some army pact with US just like what Indra Gandhi did with Russia. we need to fight our own war but we need good backing also.

Vietnam had same pact with USSR before they had a war with China. USSR didn't even lift a single finger to help Vietnamese. Now Russians don't honour their legally binding commercial agreements and US is infamous for dropping allies like hot potatoes. Why do you think that they'll come to our aid in case of conflict with China? Not to mention, they'll demand their own pound of flesh for anything they do.