India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

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S_Madhukar
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby S_Madhukar » 28 Sep 2020 05:31

I hope we also use thermal cameras UAVs etc to monitor the heights going forward. May be we will have to add fibre optics and other infra that the Chinese are doing at their end. We are depressingly behind times in warfare still relying on the hardships of the infantry jawan to do all the hard work and ignoring machines like we did when the world was ahead with guns and cannons. We need to catch up on multiple things simultaneously can’t be in sequence like roads first and then something else while the rest of the world gallops ahead.
Btw I hope all the rations And canned food are India made the food agri business could get a Boost with the deployment and may be some of the products filter down to ordinary retailers

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby darshan » 28 Sep 2020 05:52

Indians meet your everyday enemies: pukes and occupiers of Tibet. Remember this everyday first thing in the morning to make decisions for rest of the day.

ISI Now Using Chinese Drones To Smuggle China Made Guns Into Jammu And Kashmir To Aid Terrorists

https://swarajyamag.com/insta/isi-now-u ... terrorists
....
“The nexus between China and Pakistan in arming the terrorists in Jammu and Kashmir is becoming more evident with every passing day. The evidence we have of Chinese ‘goods’ being used to spread terror in India are too many,” a senior Indian intelligence officer is quoted as saying in the report.
....

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby sreerudra » 28 Sep 2020 07:08

Rishirishi wrote:
LakshmanPST wrote:In a way I feel this Winter deployment is good for us in the long run...
Even if things don't go kinetic, we will gain valuable experience of maintaining war time force in those heights during winter in Ladakh...
It will help us fix all loopholes in terms of weapons, equipment and logistics, in case of a future war...


Remember that it is not WE who have to stay on those peeks for the winter, in those hellish conditions. Imagine living in a freezebox, where you have to boil water to drink it. A freezer "only" is -18. The chaps at the peeks could face -35 and strong winds. Without helicopters it will be a near impossible task to hold those peeks in the winter.
I really hope people realize what difficulty they chaps have to face. After such a stint anyone will be marked for life.


Then why don't we march forward as much as possible and put our communication channels there now?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ks_sachin » 28 Sep 2020 07:31

sreerudra wrote:
Then why don't we march forward as much as possible and put our communication channels there now?


What does this mean?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby LakshmanPST » 28 Sep 2020 08:06

Rishirishi wrote:
LakshmanPST wrote:In a way I feel this Winter deployment is good for us in the long run...
Even if things don't go kinetic, we will gain valuable experience of maintaining war time force in those heights during winter in Ladakh...
It will help us fix all loopholes in terms of weapons, equipment and logistics, in case of a future war...


Remember that it is not WE who have to stay on those peeks for the winter, in those hellish conditions. Imagine living in a freezebox, where you have to boil water to drink it. A freezer "only" is -18. The chaps at the peeks could face -35 and strong winds. Without helicopters it will be a near impossible task to hold those peeks in the winter.
I really hope people realize what difficulty they chaps have to face. After such a stint anyone will be marked for life.


If we extend that arguement, we shouldn't be discussing anything here...
I would say that war between India and China is unfortunately inevitable, if not now, in future... There will be deaths on both sides...
When things go kinetic, it is not WE who would be facing the enemy... And there is nothing WE can do about it except posting here & elsewhere...
-
Anyways, I'm simply saying that even if things don't go kinetic now, this experience of war time mobilization in Ladakh winter gives us valuable experience... The 2.8 Billion $ money spent won't go waste... (Ppl are pointing out Siachen, but it is not a war time mobilization and is also in a different sub-sector...)

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby manjgu » 28 Sep 2020 08:32

LakshmanPST wrote:
Rishirishi wrote:
Remember that it is not WE who have to stay on those peeks for the winter, in those hellish conditions. Imagine living in a freezebox, where you have to boil water to drink it. A freezer "only" is -18. The chaps at the peeks could face -35 and strong winds. Without helicopters it will be a near impossible task to hold those peeks in the winter.
I really hope people realize what difficulty they chaps have to face. After such a stint anyone will be marked for life.


If we extend that arguement, we shouldn't be discussing anything here...
I would say that war between India and China is unfortunately inevitable, if not now, in future... There will be deaths on both sides...
When things go kinetic, it is not WE who would be facing the enemy... And there is nothing WE can do about it except posting here & elsewhere...
-
Anyways, I'm simply saying that even if things don't go kinetic now, this experience of war time mobilization in Ladakh winter gives us valuable experience... The 2.8 Billion $ money spent won't go waste... (Ppl are pointing out Siachen, but it is not a war time mobilization and is also in a different sub-sector...)



and it also showed pakis the scale of mobilization etc. must have put fear of god into them.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ks_sachin » 28 Sep 2020 09:08

manjgu wrote:
LakshmanPST wrote:
If we extend that arguement, we shouldn't be discussing anything here...
I would say that war between India and China is unfortunately inevitable, if not now, in future... There will be deaths on both sides...
When things go kinetic, it is not WE who would be facing the enemy... And there is nothing WE can do about it except posting here & elsewhere...
-
Anyways, I'm simply saying that even if things don't go kinetic now, this experience of war time mobilization in Ladakh winter gives us valuable experience... The 2.8 Billion $ money spent won't go waste... (Ppl are pointing out Siachen, but it is not a war time mobilization and is also in a different sub-sector...)



and it also showed pakis the scale of mobilization etc. must have put fear of god into them.


We are assuming that the mobilisation that we have done has been not thought of beforehand. We have a lot of experience about this kind of deployment - kindly look to the east and this mobilisation is just putting into action plans we have and also exercised with.
Let me tell you that some of the prep around defences has been ongoing for a while and some of these scenarios have been wargamed. If the political establishment has shown spine right through the years the IA would not have had to be reactive.

Actually, wartime mobilisation is perhaps easier than planning for a permanent presence.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Roop » 28 Sep 2020 11:09

RaviB wrote:We're pretty inscrutable for the Chinese too. ... They do not understand what we're up to. According to their logic, we should clearly see that we are inferior, give up and bow ourselves to their will.

Just as the Pakis did. :D

Seriously, I think they have been getting advice from the Pakis about how to handle us. Pakis probably told the Chinese, "Arre yaar, don't worry about those Yindus onlee! They are useless cowards, they can't fight, they will crumble at the first sight of combat". It suited the inherent Han cultural/ racial hubris to believe this, so they did. And now they can see (I assume) how wrong they were.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby V_Raman » 28 Sep 2020 11:55

Now Modiji openly asking UN that India is not being duly recognized - that should increase the pain and H&D loss for China :twisted:

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Nihat » 28 Sep 2020 12:50

A basic acknowledgment of a birthday greeting from the Taiwan president would have gone a long way sending a strong message to China. What did we have to lose anyway.

They already call an Indian state as their own and openly back terrorism from Pakistan.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Deans » 28 Sep 2020 16:56

ks_sachin wrote:[
Actually, wartime mobilisation is perhaps easier than planning for a permanent presence.


Sachin ji, You make an important point. We are planning for a permanent presence, which I doubt the Chinese are doing. They mobilized for a quick salami slice. When that did not happen, they are trying intimidation. If that does not work, I don't see their fallback plan.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby rsingh » 28 Sep 2020 17:54

S_Madhukar wrote:I hope we also use thermal cameras UAVs etc to monitor the heights going forward. May be we will have to add fibre optics and other infra that the Chinese are doing at their end. We are depressingly behind times in warfare still relying on the hardships of the infantry jawan to do all the hard work and ignoring machines like we did when the world was ahead with guns and cannons. We need to catch up on multiple things simultaneously can’t be in sequence like roads first and then something else while the rest of the world gallops ahead.
Btw I hope all the rations And canned food are India made the food agri business could get a Boost with the deployment and may be some of the products filter down to ordinary retailers


I have some usefull information for you.

Indian army uses following classified instruments

1. Condensation hydrometric Accumulation Instrument (CHAI) to collect water from air. It peoduces 10 lt awter / hr
2. Geothermal Agumented Reverse Multiplyng Instrument (GARMI) to heat the arctic tents
3. Optical Hilltop Triband Enlarged Remote Istrument ( OH TERI ) to communicate.
4. Dapsang Undertaking Divisenal Headqarter (DUDH) assocation of Tibetian milkman that supply fresh Yak milk to solders.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Cyrano » 28 Sep 2020 18:27

risingh, for a second I thought you were serious :rotfl:

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby k prasad » 28 Sep 2020 18:39

rsingh wrote:I have some usefull information for you.

Indian army uses following classified instruments

1. Condensation hydrometric Accumulation Instrument (CHAI) to collect water from air. It peoduces 10 lt awter / hr
2. Geothermal Agumented Reverse Multiplyng Instrument (GARMI) to heat the arctic tents
3. Optical Hilltop Triband Enlarged Remote Istrument ( OH TERI ) to communicate.
4. Dapsang Undertaking Divisenal Headqarter (DUDH) assocation of Tibetian milkman that supply fresh Yak milk to solders.


Sir, you forgot the High Altitude Warning Actuators (HAWA) to provide an automatic spring-loaded launcher for any enemy infantrymen who step on it (like in cartoons).

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Kakarat » 28 Sep 2020 18:41

India deploys long-range missile Nirbhay to counter Chinese threat at LAC

The Nirbhay missile has been developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The missile has been in the testing for seven years. This is Nirbhay missile's first deployment.

According to sources, the new missiles have been deployed in a limited number for now. The missile is likely to get full op clearance later.

The all-weather surface-to-surface missile has a range that can go up to 1,000 km, which mean it is capable of striking targets in Tibet.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Cain Marko » 28 Sep 2020 20:29

^ahuja sir and others should be happy...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby fanne » 28 Sep 2020 21:05

Even LCH and LUH prototypes are deployed. ATAGS would have been there, but for minor accident (which pending COI, if I were to guess I would more lean on bad shells rather than bad barrel), I hope they trail the other 4 guns from Kalyani (all of them are modern, and are mounted on vehicle that can tow them, so very shoot and scoot and transportable, and LIGHT). These can be very helpful in the plateau, once we cross the Himalayas. Even behind the mountains, they can be useful owing to their light weight and self transportable capability.
Can we not modify some of Herons as UCAV? On our own if needed?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Kakarat » 28 Sep 2020 21:10

fanne wrote:Even LCH and LUH prototypes are deployed. ATAGS would have been there, but for minor accident (which pending COI, if I were to guess I would more lean on bad shells rather than bad barrel), I hope they trail the other 4 guns from Kalyani (all of them are modern, and are mounted on vehicle that can tow them, so very shoot and scoot and transportable, and LIGHT). These can be very helpful in the plateau, once we cross the Himalayas. Even behind the mountains, they can be useful owing to their light weight and self transportable capability.
Can we not modify some of Herons as UCAV? On our own if needed?


May be they will when the fireworks start when the guns can be actually used, what can you do with them now?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby g.sarkar » 28 Sep 2020 21:28

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 07DgJ.html
Brahmos, Akash and Nirbhay: India rolls out its missiles to counter Chinese threat
India-China standoff: India’s main stay in the stand-off weapons is the Brahmos air-to-air and air-to-surface cruise missile with its 300 kilogramme warhead
Shishir Gupta, Hindustan Times, New Delhi, Sep 28, 2020.

The 500 km-range Brahmos cruise missile, 800 km-range Nirbhay cruise missiles along with Akash surface-to-air missile (SAM) with a capability to target aerial threats 40 km away are at the core of India’s stand-off weapon deterrence to People’s Liberation Army (PLA) missile deployment in Xinjiang and Tibet regions.
While the PLA’s western theatre command has deployed stand-off weapons up to 2,000 km range and long-range SAMs in Tibet and Xinjiang after the Ladakh stand-off started, people familiar with the matter told Hindustan Times that the supersonic Brahmos, subsonic Nirbhay as well as Akash have been deployed to counter them by India in the worst-case scenario. The Chinese deployment is not limited to occupied Aksai Chin but is located in depth positions from Kashgar, Hotan, Lhasa and Nyingchi along the 3,488 km Line of Actual Control (LAC).
.....
Gautam

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby hnair » 28 Sep 2020 21:34

:lol: The loudspeakers at the border should run "Congratulations Little Emperors, you have been chosen to play a valuable role in certifying India's next gen weapons systems. When you do Kung-Poo on the snow, do not forget to wear a traditional Mandarin hat, so we can do better calibration of sensors and also do better Post Damage Assessment (PDA)"

RaviB, what is the mandarin for "Why is India testing new vweapons on our child? We should raise this in UN" ?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Bharadwaj » 28 Sep 2020 21:38

Any publicly available news on the Arjun getting a run during the present situation? That would be the icing on the cake.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Jayram » 28 Sep 2020 21:49

Kakarat wrote:India deploys long-range missile Nirbhay to counter Chinese threat at LAC

The Nirbhay missile has been developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The missile has been in the testing for seven years. This is Nirbhay missile's first deployment.

According to sources, the new missiles have been deployed in a limited number for now. The missile is likely to get full op clearance later.

The all-weather surface-to-surface missile has a range that can go up to 1,000 km, which mean it is capable of striking targets in Tibet.

Hmm Very exciting and lighting fast news. The elephant has turned into a cheetah. However I am not aware of any user trials that were published.. not that it dint happen but just not published. So hmmm.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pandyan » 29 Sep 2020 00:17

Incredible people of Todnam village, Pin Valley, Spiti - this is how winter looks in Ladakh. Love the human touch in these travel videos by India In Motion.

This is a story very close to my heart. The story of a village that gave me refuge after a snowstorm. The story of a family that took me in and made me one of their own. The story of a culture changing rapidly with time while also staying true to its roots. The story of one of the most beautiful, harshest places in our country. This is the story of Todnam. The little village with a big heart


Mods - Hope it is okay to post occasional travel videos. Gives a perspective of the land and the people.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby k prasad » 29 Sep 2020 00:39

Very nice vid, saar... I've found some really good background info about the terrain, the roads and the people of Ladakh from travel videos and stories. There was a guy who cycled across Ladakh over 70 days, and had extensive photos of the roads... Many of which were beautiful black topped roads that made my heart go warm!

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Vips » 29 Sep 2020 01:13

ArjunPandit wrote:
LakshmanPST wrote:In a way I feel this Winter deployment is good for us in the long run...
Even if things don't go kinetic, we will gain valuable experience of maintaining war time force in those heights during winter in Ladakh...
It will help us fix all loopholes in terms of weapons, equipment and logistics, in case of a future war...

door swings both ways sir, our learning is not steep, we have been doign this for ages..it will be a bigger lesson for china...i prefer the show down now than later as china will have their logistics sorted out ...but in any case a showdown is inevitable between India and China in this decade...


In case the showdown does not happen within the next 3 years then the Chinese will be left ruing their chances(that is if they had the chance at all). With the critical Border roads construction finishing and the infrastructure loopholes being filled-in during the next 3 years, if they try anything fishy it will be Doklam redux as the chinese will find quick moving and certainly better equipped Indian forces will be more then a match for them across the entire length of the border.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby kumarn » 29 Sep 2020 02:21

So i was having some fun with the chinese on teetar. What was interesting is that they would be all fire and fury. But the moment you asked them, why the Chinese parents Should risk the lives of their only childs for the megalomania of Mr. Xi, they clam up suddenly. It must hit a raw nerve somewhere.

May be this should be broadcast on the speakers to the Chinese soldiers on the border and on all forums.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby vimal » 29 Sep 2020 02:40

^^ Xi is absolute ruler of that land, anything you say or do can and will be used against you.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby vnadendla » 29 Sep 2020 03:12

Something doesn't add-up and it bothers me. Can you guys shed light if it is safe to do so.

    [1] Chinese salami sliced. One more slice in a long list of slices
    [2] This time India scratched back
    [3] Chinese flirt with disaster

You do [1] because you can try again somewhere else if it doesn't workout. Like you did last umpteen years. So looks like [2] is not a scratch. Its a big stab. Black top is a scratch. What then is the stab? Is Aksai Chin In play. Or Kailash rumors true? What else?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 29 Sep 2020 03:43

rsingh wrote:
S_Madhukar wrote:I hope we also use thermal cameras UAVs etc to monitor the heights going forward. May be we will have to add fibre optics and other infra that the Chinese are doing at their end. We are depressingly behind times in warfare still relying on the hardships of the infantry jawan to do all the hard work and ignoring machines like we did when the world was ahead with guns and cannons. We need to catch up on multiple things simultaneously can’t be in sequence like roads first and then something else while the rest of the world gallops ahead.
Btw I hope all the rations And canned food are India made the food agri business could get a Boost with the deployment and may be some of the products filter down to ordinary retailers


I have some usefull information for you.

Indian army uses following classified instruments

1. Condensation hydrometric Accumulation Instrument (CHAI) to collect water from air. It peoduces 10 lt awter / hr
2. Geothermal Agumented Reverse Multiplyng Instrument (GARMI) to heat the arctic tents
3. Optical Hilltop Triband Enlarged Remote Istrument ( OH TERI ) to communicate.
4. Dapsang Undertaking Divisenal Headqarter (DUDH) assocation of Tibetian milkman that supply fresh Yak milk to solders.


Breaking News

My chaiwala told me that the DRDO has also rushed two strategic advanced prototypes to Delhi. Portable instruments to wear down the Cheenis during negotiation.

1. Kilo Ampere Dielectic Active Kryptonite Condensation Hydrometric Accumulation Instrument (KADAK CHAI); &
2. Bathyscopic Isolation Sphere for Keelhauling Of Opressed Kommisars (BISKOOT)

Apparently both North and South block junta are over the moon with the promise of subjecting the Sugar Team to these two new instruments of revenge.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby darshan » 29 Sep 2020 03:48

Is there any reason to rush in RUDRAKSH, MALA, and OM to the border?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Cain Marko » 29 Sep 2020 05:15

Vips wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:door swings both ways sir, our learning is not steep, we have been doign this for ages..it will be a bigger lesson for china...i prefer the show down now than later as china will have their logistics sorted out ...but in any case a showdown is inevitable between India and China in this decade...


In case the showdown does not happen within the next 3 years then the Chinese will be left ruing their chances(that is if they had the chance at all). With the critical Border roads construction finishing and the infrastructure loopholes being filled-in during the next 3 years, if they try anything fishy it will be Doklam redux as the chinese will find quick moving and certainly better equipped Indian forces will be more then a match for them across the entire length of the border.


I would go so far as to say that - if things don't happen in the next month or so, their chances just took a nosedive. Once winter sets in, India gets a respite and will use the time to make it very hard for when things open up again next summer. We can expect - more rafales, S400, Tejas, Nirbhay, ISR platforms, and God knows what kind of leased maal they will bring into play. Maybe lease a few more Rafale or M2K or Su30SM, IFR and ISR platforms from the Khan. Who knows. The Nirbhay, S400 and Rafale will have a dramatic impact on the equation.

Panditji, sorting out logistics for China will be difficult, if not impossible. Nature simply doesn't permit it. Logistics lines to be truly effective in wartime, need to be short and this is not possible with most of their population centers so far away from flashpoints.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Vinod Ji » 29 Sep 2020 05:25

Home / India News / China takes 1959 line on perception of LAC

China takes 1959 line on perception of LACExperts say Beijing’s position, which India has rejected in the past, suggests the standoff is unlikely to be resolved soon

An Indian Air Force’s Apache helicopter is seen in the Ladakh region.(Reuters File Photo )Updated: Sep 29, 2020 03:44 IST

By Sutirtho Patranobis , Hindustan Times, Beijing

China has said it abides by the Line of Actual Control (LAC) as proposed by Premier Zhou Enlai to Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru in a letter dated November 7, 1959 — the first time in decades that it has clearly spelled out its stand on the notional Sino-India boundary by reiterating a position that New Delhi has consistently rejected since it was first made 61 years ago.

Beijing’s position, in an exclusive statement to HT amid the ongoing border friction in eastern Ladakh, is a reiteration of the long-existing differences on the boundary question and a sign that the ongoing military standoff is unlikely to be resolved soon.

Also read: Eye on China, India goes for Heron tech upgrade, missile-firing Guardian drones

In the statement in Mandarin, the Chinese foreign ministry, while blaming the Indian Army for the ongoing tension since May and for the June 15 clash in eastern Ladakh’s Galwan valley, said the clash was an “unfortunate” event.

“Firstly, China-India border LAC is very clear, that is the LAC on November 7, 1959. China announced it in the 1950s, and the international community including India are also clear about it,” the ministry said on Friday.

“However, ever since this year, the Indian Army has continued to arrive and illegally cross the border, unilaterally expanding the scope of actual control. This is the source of tension on the border issues. The key to disengagement between the two armies is India’s withdrawal of all illegal cross-border personnel and equipment,” it added.

It’s the first time in recent years that Beijing has said in unequivocal terms that it still goes by the 1959 LAC. It did, however, make a passing reference during the 2017 Doklam crisis, when the Chinese foreign ministry spokesperson Hua Chunying spoke of the “1959 LAC” while blaming Indian troops for a scuffle with Chinese soldiers near Pangong lake in Ladakh in August that year.

Also read| Brahmos, Akash and Nirbhay: India rolls out its missiles to counter Chinese threat

India has repeatedly and consistently rejected China’s allegations that Indian troops crossed over to the Chinese side of the LAC in eastern Ladakh, asserting that New Delhi has always taken a responsible approach towards border management and maintaining peace and tranquillity in the border areas.

The Indian ministry of external affairs did not respond to requests for a comment on the fresh Chinese statement.

The November 7, 1959 date mentioned in the Beijing statement was in reference to a letter written by Zhou to Nehru – the two leaders under whom the two countries experienced the best and the worst of bilateral diplomatic ties. “In order to maintain effectively the status quo of the border between the two countries, to ensure the tranquillity of the border regions and to create a favourable atmosphere for a friendly settlement of the boundary question, the Chinese government proposes that the armed forces of China and India each withdraw 20km at once from the so-called McMahon Line in the east, and from the line up to which each side exercises actual control in the west,” Zhou wrote.

Also read: How Chinese propaganda is using the 1962 war to shape public opinion

A year later, during his high-profile visit to New Delhi in 1960, Zhou had used the phrase “LAC” during a press conference. “There exists between the two counties a line of actual control up to which each side exercises administrative jurisdiction,” he said as part of a six-point proposal to maintain peace at the border.

Zhou went on to say that both sides should keep to the “…line of actual control and should not put forward territorial claims as pre-conditions, but individual adjustments may be made”.

In 1962, when India and China fought a war between October and November, Nehru rejected the definition. “There is no sense or meaning in the Chinese offer to withdraw twenty kilometers from what they call ‘line of actual control,” he said. The Chinese Premier responded to Nehru, defining the LAC – again as per November 7, 1959.

The LAC was “basically still the line of actual control as existed between the Chinese and Indian sides on 7 November 1959: To put it concretely, in the eastern sector it coincides in the main with the so- called McMahon Line, and in the western and middle sectors it coincides in the main with the traditional customary line which has consistently been pointed out by China”, Zhou said in reply to Nehru.

The phrase LAC was used in the 1993 Sino-India “Agreement on the Maintenance of Peace and tranquillity along the LAC in the India-China Border Areas.” At New Delhi’s insistence the expression wasn’t qualified in terms of whether it was the 1959 one.

Former Indian ambassador to China, Gautam Bambawale said the “…significance (of the statement) is that they are telling India that the LAC is the line of November 7, 1959, as explained by Zhou Enlai to Nehru in his letter. That’s it. They are going by that.” Bambawale added: “We have never accepted it. There were several pockets of disagreements and the largest number of pockets (of disagreements) were in Ladakh. Obviously, we did not accept the offer.” He added that New Delhi has conveyed this to Beijing in “no uncertain terms”.

A leading China-hand, Bambawale had also served as ambassador in Bhutan, the only other country, other than India, with which Beijing has a land-territorial dispute.

Bambawale said following the Chinese understanding of the LAC, the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) is attempting to hold on to the ground positions right up to it as per the 1959 LAC.

It is clear that the current aggression at the border shown by the Chinese since May is to attempt to control territories up to where Beijing defines its LAC.

Officials in diplomatic circles, who asked not to be named, told HT that India had pointed out its disagreements with the 1959 LAC even during meetings of the Working Mechanism for Consultation and Coordination (WMCC) on India-China Border Affairs established in 2012 as a mechanism to consult and coordinate the management of India-China border areas.

Little is known about the differences in perceptions on the LAC in the western sector, the most troublesome. Maps have only been exchanged for the middle sector until now.

One of the officials above told HT that the LAC clarification process for the western sector broke down “an hour into the meeting” in 2002. Since then, the entire process – which was then an Expert Group headed by a director general in MEA and deputy director general in the Chinese foreign ministry -- has been stalled. “The western section was drawn by Indian surveyor (WH) Johnson, who privately assigned more than 30,000 square kilometres of land in the Aksai Chin region of China to British India. This is the historical origin of the territorial dispute between China and India in the western section,” Wang Dehua, a South Asia expert at Shanghai Municipal Centre for International Studies, said.

“China hopes India will give more concessions in the western sector while Beijing could give more concessions (to India) in the eastern sector,” Wang added.

The Chinese foreign ministry statement blamed New Delhi for the tension, saying: “…the right and wrong of the Galwan Valley conflict is very clear. We didn’t want to see what had happened. We hope the media doesn’t hype this unfortunate event”. The ministry did not respond to the question on the number casualties that PLA suffered during the brutal hand-to-hand clash with Indian army soldiers on June 15.

The ministry’s statement referred to the recent foreign ministers’ and military talks held between India and China.

“Since the bilateral meeting between the foreign ministers of China and India in Moscow on September 10, the two sides have actively engaged in dialogue and consultation based on the five-point declaration,” it said.

Referring to commander-level talks, it said “constructive measures to stabilise the border situation were taken. We hope the two sides walk in the same direction and push the frontline troops to disengage as soon as possible”. Asked to comment on reports arguing Beijing is escalating tension with neighbours to divert attention from a badly hit economy, the ministry said though hit by the pandemic, the economy is reviving.

“Due to Covid-19, China’s economy has been affected but it has regained growth and has contributed to the recovery of the global economy, the statement added.

On relations with neighbours, the ministry said: “The relationship between China and its neighbouring countries is generally good. China has always insisted on resolving differences between neighbouring countries through friendly consultations.”

Sameer Patil, a fellow for international security studies at Gateway House, said the statement indicated that China was clearly adopting a maximalist position that disregarded all the developments that have taken place since 1959, including the bilateral boundary talks, mechanisms and agreements on peace and tranquillity on the LAC.

“When the Special Representatives mechanism was set up, this wasn’t their position. Even though this matter [China’s stance on the LAC of 1959] may have been known, it was not reiterated when important bilateral mechanisms and arrangements for handling the border dispute were set up,” he said.

“This reflects China’s obdurate attitude towards the border dispute. Reiterating this maximalist position amid the five-month-long standoff shows China has no intention of going in for an early solution to the problem,” Patil added.

(With inputs from Rezaul H Laskar) copy +paste from ↓

 https://m.hindustantimes.com/india-news/china-takes-1959-line-on-perception-of-lac/story-ciMDJjOeTLuvyvsNy7gJXI.html

Suraj
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Suraj » 29 Sep 2020 05:48

vimal wrote:^^ Xi is absolute ruler of that land, anything you say or do can and will be used against you.

Doxxing of Chinese who are overly critical of the regime, is a very real problem for them. If you come across as not sufficiently patriotic and are an overseas Chinese, you can have 50 centers hack your account, identify you, identify your families addresses in China and post all that on weibo or someplace, that leads to authorities coming to have a word with the family there, with potentially tragic results. This is not a theory. It has happened before, more than once.

Remember the old cold war joke ?
American: America is the land of the free. I can go to White House, bang my fist on the table and say "Mr. President, I do not like how you are running the USA"
Russian: So what ? I can do that too. I can go to the Kremlin, pound my fist on the table and say "Comrade General Secretary, I do not like how the American President is running the USA"

The Chinese online are free to take on India. Ask them hard questions about themselves, and they'll clam up real quick, because they're at risk of potential real harm.

V_Raman
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby V_Raman » 29 Sep 2020 06:07

So this is like Islam. They can talk all about other people. But you question them critically on Islam - they go quiet!!!

D.Mahesh
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby D.Mahesh » 29 Sep 2020 06:48

Mort Walker wrote:
Anoop wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U89FKElYvrc

Lt. Gen. Kulkarni explains mountain warfare in some detail.


He points out a 9-12:1 ratio to dislodge a defender in the mountains. However, PGM from aircraft as was done in Kargil can make a significant difference. If the PLA somehow managed to gain air superiority in the region it would be very problematic to keep troops at those heights.


There's way too much of lit on high alt battles here on BR & BRF, to make such a simplistic argument. Who else has had PGM + Air Superiority & fought at Alts recently?

SSridhar
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby SSridhar » 29 Sep 2020 07:41

Vinod Ji wrote: . . .“Firstly, China-India border LAC is very clear, that is the LAC on November 7, 1959. China announced it in the 1950s, and the international community including India are also clear about it,” the ministry said on Friday.

“However, ever since this year, the Indian Army has continued to arrive and illegally cross the border, unilaterally expanding the scope of actual control. This is the source of tension on the border issues. The key to disengagement between the two armies is India’s withdrawal of all illegal cross-border personnel and equipment,” it added.

Whatever the Emperor sees is his. This is the sum and substance of the 'harmonious coexistence' of the Confucian Empire. Then they would engineer some history like finding a broken porcelain traced to Ming dynasty to justify their claim. The world must work towards relieving China of the extra lands it seized in the 20th Century from Tibet to Manchuria.

hnair
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby hnair » 29 Sep 2020 09:03

“Firstly, China-India border LAC is very clear, that is the LAC on November 7, 1959. China announced it in the 1950s, and the international community including India are also clear about it,” the ministry said on Friday.


SSridhar, indeed, we are in 2020 and yet the language is ridiculous, medieval and imperious "China announced clearly what Indian territory it wants. The world was informed. Why is India still talking?"

Cant believe these are the types who want to take over the running of this world with an attitude of a pouty little kindergartner

SSridhar
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby SSridhar » 29 Sep 2020 09:52

Exactly hnair. That's why, the Chinese must be limited to the Core Han Chinese lands around the Yellow river and the rest must be liberated. China must be unravelled and 'put in its place' like the cardinal Confucian principle of everything having its own place. Then there will be harmonious coexistence.

ks_sachin
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ks_sachin » 29 Sep 2020 09:55

SSridhar wrote:Exactly hnair. That's why, the Chinese must be limited to the Core Han Chinese lands around the Yellow river and the rest must be liberated. China must be unravelled and 'put in its place' like the cardinal Confucian principle of everything having its own place. Then there will be harmonious coexistence.

We have to develop a similar narrative. We know what is ours and we will get it or keep it...

Jayram
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Jayram » 29 Sep 2020 10:08

ks_sachin wrote:
SSridhar wrote:Exactly hnair. That's why, the Chinese must be limited to the Core Han Chinese lands around the Yellow river and the rest must be liberated. China must be unravelled and 'put in its place' like the cardinal Confucian principle of everything having its own place. Then there will be harmonious coexistence.

We have to develop a similar narrative. We know what is ours and we will get it or keep it...

OR we know what is ours and what is the Tibetans and we will help them get it .


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