VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

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kit
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby kit » 15 Sep 2020 23:44

Rakesh wrote:
kit wrote:Also one would have to factor in the rate of obsolescence for a 4th gen fighter vs a 5th gen fighter !!

A rate that has to be commensurate with what your enemy has.

Is China's 5th generation technology anywhere close to the Americans? Is it honestly that easy to build a 5th generation fighter? Slap on a few sharp angles and you get VLO? Xerox copy a F-35, call it J-31 and it becomes on par with F-35?

The F-35 represents hundreds of billions of dollars of investment and is backed by companies in massa that have been working on VLO for decades. The foundation of F-35 lies in F-22, F-117, B-2, etc, etc, etc.

Who are the Chinese fooling with the J-20 and J-31? Let's get real.


No Rakesh , my point being Rafale is still a 4+ gen fighter, If the Chinese 5th gen becomes as good as our 4 + or 4++ , the balance tilts to the opposite side. India would still need to field a qualitatively superior fighter force. Now long can the chinese take to get to that level , that is certainly less than the time for a US 5th gen fighter tech., India will need to plan its tech level lead at least 5 years ahead , can the Rafale achieve that goal ?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Vivek K » 16 Sep 2020 00:39

Rakesh wrote:The nation breathed a sigh of relief, because five Rafales landed in India despite RaGa's convulsions. It survived the wrath of Bofors and came out squeaky clean. The nation has every right to breathe a sigh of relief. I certainly did.

........

A "supposed" fraud that was cleared of any wrongdoing *TWICE* by the Supreme Court of India. A "Drop-the-Mic" moment :)]


Admiral Sir,

You take umbrage very easily and personally about this deal. Please note - I am not questioning the price from the corruption angle. Corruption exists everywhere in India. The sun would have to freeze for a deal to be without corruption in India. But like a good Indian, I am not with RaGa about his crappy angle. Nor am I against Modi for buying Rafa!

My point/take is - the Rafale is a good, but expensive aircraft. It is killing domestic programs which in my ignorant opinion are a must for India’s future just like Rafa is a must for France’s future. So I have no need to read the defense of clean deal for Rafa purchase.

I wrote 3 Rafale because 3 are single seat fighters. Are the two-seaters also going to be used as fighters? I’m sorry I have zero interest in the Rafa and have not read up on it.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 16 Sep 2020 01:05

Vivek K wrote:Admiral Sir,

You take umbrage very easily and personally about this deal. Please note - I am not questioning the price from the corruption angle. Corruption exists everywhere in India. The sun would have to freeze for a deal to be without corruption in India. But like a good Indian, I am not with RaGa about his crappy angle. Nor am I against Modi for buying Rafa!

Any perceived umbrage was not directed at you and neither was I offended :) That comment was directed at individuals on the forum (I mentioned that in my post) who are gnashing their teeth with the IAF selecting French maal over Amreeki maal. Remember, only from America comes salvation for India vis-à-vis China. Rest of India's allies (especially the evil and conniving Russians) are useless. That is what we are led to believe. Only through America, can India be saved.

Vivek K wrote:My point/take is - the Rafale is a good, but expensive aircraft. It is killing domestic programs which in my ignorant opinion are a must for India’s future just like Rafa is a must for France’s future. So I have no need to read the defense of clean deal for Rafa purchase.

36 Rafales has not killed anything. Our local programs are moving at full steam ahead. Do read up on the twitter account of Group Captain HV Thakur (retd). You will find much comfort in them. I certainly do. Time better spent than wailing on the forum. The issue is not necessarily funding, but rather lack of vision with our decision makers. Everything is done ad hoc. Everything is band-aid solution.

Here is one gem for you Sir. And he is a HAL test pilot. He 100% definitely knows what he is talking about.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/13002 ... 00800?s=20 ---> Nobody willing to get LCA fixed and done? I think you should make some effort to obtain updates from the working level. Opinions are welcome, but you must please do your homework before underestimating how much effort, time & MONEY, the field experts are expending on LCA.

Vivek K wrote:I wrote 3 Rafale because 3 are single seat fighters. Are the two-seaters also going to be used as fighters? I’m sorry I have zero interest in the Rafa and have not read up on it.

Yes Sir, they will be. 28 are single seaters and 8 will be twin seaters. All 36 will be combat capable. Do read up on the Rafale, it will clear much about your doubts on her role in the IAF. It will also clear up any doubts of whether the IAF will acquire them in triple digits. The Rafale is a silver bullet, designed to conduct some very specific roles in the IAF. I know Mort Saar is going to skewer me for saying this ---> But I have *FAR* greater odds of going out on a date with Katrina Kaif, than the IAF buying 114 Rafales in MMRCA 2.0 :lol:

There might be type conversion training for rookie pilots, but I doubt pilots (with the rank of Flying Officer) will be flying them right out of Air Force Academy. Only the cream of the crop in the IAF will get to fly them. At least initially. Later on, that will change.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 16 Sep 2020 01:15

kit wrote:No Rakesh , my point being Rafale is still a 4+ gen fighter, If the Chinese 5th gen becomes as good as our 4 + or 4++ , the balance tilts to the opposite side. India would still need to field a qualitatively superior fighter force. Now long can the chinese take to get to that level , that is certainly less than the time for a US 5th gen fighter tech., India will need to plan its tech level lead at least 5 years ahead , can the Rafale achieve that goal ?

My apologies for misinterpreting your post....but that is a big IF. There is no point in over-hyping (I am not saying you are personally) what the Chinese are doing. Granted, they have a decent manufacturing base and are churning out equipment like pancakes. The larger issue is how good is the quality? That is the beauty of massa - large scale production with excellent quality control. That is why they are massa :) Take a look at LM's F-16 and F-35 production. Every product that India has ordered from Boeing and Lockheed Martin has come on time, if not earlier.

I have always used this example - if a PESA equipped Su-30MKI could detect the J-20 from several kilometres away (as Air Chief Marshal Dhanoa Sir said), imagine what an AESA-equipped Tejas Mk1A or an an AESA-equipped Rafale F3R will do. The J-20 does have some VLO from the frontal aspect, but that is about it.

Just having a superior plane (assuming the J-20 even is) alone does not win the war.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 16 Sep 2020 01:45

Also kit, see this below....

Rafale vs J-20: Ex-IAF chief Dhanoa calls China’s bluff with ‘two simple questions
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... eIrXI.html
31 July 2020

Question #1
“If the J-20, also called the Mighty Dragon, is indeed a fifth generation stealth fighter, then why does it have canards while genuine 5th generation fighters such as the US’ F-22, F-35 and Russian fifth generation Su-57 don’t,” Dhanoa asked.


Question #2
The other question the former IAF chief has for the Chinese is: “Why can’t the J-20 supercruise if it is really a 5th generation fighter as its manufacturer Chengdu Aerospace Corporation calls it.”

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby kit » 16 Sep 2020 20:57

Rakesh wrote:Also kit, see this below....

Rafale vs J-20: Ex-IAF chief Dhanoa calls China’s bluff with ‘two simple questions
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... eIrXI.html
31 July 2020

Question #1
“If the J-20, also called the Mighty Dragon, is indeed a fifth generation stealth fighter, then why does it have canards while genuine 5th generation fighters such as the US’ F-22, F-35 and Russian fifth generation Su-57 don’t,” Dhanoa asked.


Question #2
The other question the former IAF chief has for the Chinese is: “Why can’t the J-20 supercruise if it is really a 5th generation fighter as its manufacturer Chengdu Aerospace Corporation calls it.”


i would rather not get into that argument :)., lets say both India and China are fielding 4++ gen fighters, do we have the tech lead to overcome their numbers ? How long can we sustain that ? Is this "future proof" .. i will try answering my question .. it does seem Rafale has a road map building up its capabilities to near 5th gen level and flowing into the french 6th gen level.

Now here is the rub. India does not and possibly cannot field Rafales in the large numbers to make a significant difference in coming years. As chinese tech matures India might be fielding a much smaller number of qualitatively superior fighters that may not be enough to make the difference.How is India planning to manage this erosion of its edge ?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 17 Sep 2020 02:25

kit wrote:i would rather not get into that argument :)., lets say both India and China are fielding 4++ gen fighters, do we have the tech lead to overcome their numbers ? How long can we sustain that ? Is this "future proof" .. i will try answering my question .. it does seem Rafale has a road map building up its capabilities to near 5th gen level and flowing into the french 6th gen level.

On paper, the Chinese have every advantage.

Take a look at the PLAAF's 4++ generation fighter fleet. They have a plethora of fighters - Su-30MKK, Su-35, J-10B/C, J-11B/D and J-16. They also have a large bomber fleet consisting of the JH-7 and the H-6. To top it all, they have the J-20 (what they refer to as a fifth generation fighter).

What does the IAF have? Su-30MKIs, Mirage 2000s, MiG-29s, MiG-21s, Jaguars and five Rafales. I believe a flight of Tejas Mk1s - from No 45 Squadron - is deployed on the western border, so I am not going to include that.

Numbers, strength, personnel, equipment...you name it...the Chinese own it. But yet, the Chinese are hesitant. Defeating India in an air battle should be a cake walk for them. But yet, they are unwilling to take that first step. And the Chicoms exploit every advantage they have. Not a single one is set aside and the PLAAF has a clear advantage over the IAF on paper.

In a full scale air conflict (which they have never fought), loss of men and material will happen on both sides. Our side has decades of experience with that. What battle hardened experience does the PLAAF actually have? Having a large fleet is pointless, if your aircrew has never experienced war. The Chicom concept of war is intimidation without firing a single bullet. Just like their PLA counterparts, the PLAAF is all bluster. No one is taking the threat lightly, but there is no point (actually it is detrimental to India's war planning) in over-hyping their capability.

But ignore everything I have just said above and look at what the IAF is doing.

Q1. Why in heaven's name is the IAF holding a competition called MMRCA 2.0 in which *EVERY* participant is a 4th++ generation fighter? F-21, F-15EX, F-18SH Block III, Gripen E, Eurofighter Typhoon, Rafale, MiG-35 and Su-35? The IAF must truly be senile to run a contest (assuming a contract signature ever sees the light of day) in which the first set of fighters will arrive only by the late 2020s or early 2030s and J-20 will defeat them all. They are perfectly okay with running this contest in the 21st century. Go ask the Chief. He will tell you that the contest is still on.

Q2. Why is ADA working on Tejas Mk2, when J-20 will blow that plane out of the sky? J-20 is fifth generation. What a waste of money Tejas Mk2 is and same with ORCA/TEDBF. Both are 4++ generation fighters. Adopt the Chinese model - invest directly in a fifth generation platform i.e. AMCA. You know how that has worked out for the PLAAF. I say drop the development for the Tejas Mk2 and the ORCA/TEDBF.

Q3. Why is that the F-teens will remain perpetually relevant for the IAF, but Rafale will be obsolete by 2036? If you follow the American apologists on the forum, F-21 (or any other 4++ gen massa fighter) will definitely have tech lead over J-20. In fact, they will be eternally future proof. But the other contestants in MMRCA 2.0 will not.

Q4. Why is that if Modi/Shah had got the F-21 in 2016, instead of Rafale, there would be 3 - 4 squadrons of them right now in the IAF. Let us ignore the convenient detail that 3 - 4 squadrons of the F-21 would not have materialized in three years (for a number of reasons), but assuming it does. What is that going to do against the mighty PLAAF who has the J-20? F-21 will be swatted down like flies, because PL-15 has a range of 300 km, while AIM-120D (assuming we get that variant of the AMRAAM), has a range of a mere 160+ km. The IAF will lose onlee.

kit wrote:Now here is the rub. India does not and possibly cannot field Rafales in the large numbers to make a significant difference in coming years. As chinese tech matures India might be fielding a much smaller number of qualitatively superior fighters that may not be enough to make the difference. How is India planning to manage this erosion of its edge ?

What R&D are the Chinese actually doing? Their fifth generation programs are rip offs from the US and Russia. The J-20 has looks similar to the MiG 1.44. The J-31 has features from the F-35. Despite the cyber hacks into F-35 data by the Chinese, the F-31 is nowhere close to what the F-35 is. One can only mature your tech, when you have developed it yourself. There is a limit to xerox copying. They can improve on what they have xerox copied (the physical form), but that is about it. Chinese are way behind the Amreekis in sensors, radar, weapons, engine, etc. All of them fused together is what constitutes a fifth generation fighter. Dhanoa Sir is 100% correct - the J-20 is *not* a fifth generation fighter.

The Russians who have way more experience than the Chinese in designing aircraft are struggling with Su-57. By the end of this decade, the Russians will have fielded a decent fifth generation aircraft but will still lag behind the F-22 and F-35 of 2030. And China claims that J-20 and J-31 is as good, if not better than F-22 and F-35? The IAF knows far better than any of us on the forum and if the IAF is not overtly concerned with the J-20, why should we on the forum be? And while China's tech matures, the IAF will be twiddling her thumbs and playing pocket pool?

If the Chinese have truly mastered fifth generation technology (because J-20 is as good, if not better, as F-22 and F-35), I would like them to do what massa has just done i.e. flown an actual sixth generation prototype. Not a computer simulation, but an actual physical prototype. Because just like ADA cannot move to AMCA, without Tejas Mk2...there is no way massa could have flown a sixth generation prototype without the F-22 and the F-35 to have preceded it. The laws of R&D and science are true the world over. But knowing how the Chinese love to match everything massa does, I would not be surprised if they soon claim that they have flown a 6th generation plane.

That is all that the American apologists on BRF need. Then they will start clamoring for massa's sixth generation fighter. By the way, I am not claiming that you are one of them. Rafale/Meteor will be obsolete by then. China's 6th generation fighter will be so advanced, it will not even need to fly. From the ground in Beijing, its Super AESA will detect the Rafale taking off from Ambala and it will fire the PL-XX and before the Rafale even exits the airspace around Ambala air force station, she will be shot down. PL-XX after all be Supersonic, Hypersonic, Panasonic and Ultrasonic all at the same time. Speed of PL-XX will be measured not in Mach (speed of sound), but rather in Warp (speed of light). PL-XX will not even be a missile, rather it will be a high powered laser.

Are we honestly that naive to believe everything the Chinese claim about their military's capability?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby kit » 17 Sep 2020 10:15

Rakesh wrote:
kit wrote:i would rather not get into that argument :)., lets say both India and China are fielding 4++ gen fighters, do we have the tech lead to overcome their numbers ? How long can we sustain that ? Is this "future proof" .. i will try answering my question .. it does seem Rafale has a road map building up its capabilities to near 5th gen level and flowing into the french 6th gen level.

On paper, the Chinese have every advantage.

Take a look at the PLAAF's 4++ generation fighter fleet. They have a plethora of fighters - Su-30MKK, Su-35, J-10B/C, J-11B/D and J-16. They also have a large bomber fleet consisting of the JH-7 and the H-6. To top it all, they have the J-20 (what they refer to as a fifth generation fighter).

What does the IAF have? Su-30MKIs, Mirage 2000s, MiG-29s, MiG-21s, Jaguars and five Rafales. I believe a flight of Tejas Mk1s - from No 45 Squadron - is deployed on the western border, so I am not going to include that.

Numbers, strength, personnel, equipment...you name it...the Chinese own it. But yet, the Chinese are hesitant. Defeating India in an air battle should be a cake walk for them. But yet, they are unwilling to take that first step. And the Chicoms exploit every advantage they have. Not a single one is set aside and the PLAAF has a clear advantage over the IAF on paper.

In a full scale air conflict (which they have never fought), loss of men and material will happen on both sides. Our side has decades of experience with that. What battle hardened experience does the PLAAF actually have? Having a large fleet is pointless, if your aircrew has never experienced war. The Chicom concept of war is intimidation without firing a single bullet. Just like their PLA counterparts, the PLAAF is all bluster. No one is taking the threat lightly, but there is no point (actually it is detrimental to India's war planning) in over-hyping their capability.

But ignore everything I have just said above and look at what the IAF is doing.

Are we honestly that naive to believe everything the Chinese claim about their military's capability?



I like the bolded part of your post. In fact, it is true. Both the Americans and the Russians used "life-like decoys" for the other to overestimate the size of their armoured formations and fighter squadrons which were often "sophisticated balloons" . And now there is information warfare., something that needs to be taken very seriously. The purpose is to make the other party overspend on their military and less on the economy in the hope it will implode. ( The Soviets did ) . Also, that military R&D is highly capital intensive with a high obsolescence rate.

So the answer is to partly piggyback on a more technologically sophisticated country and utilise their resources, which in fact is what India is doing now.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Jayram » 23 Sep 2020 23:00

Good Psyops if nothing else esp for our neighbor on out west.
India's premier jet Rafale gets a women driver.
Flt Lt Shivangi Singh!
https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/1308795488720707586.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby fanne » 24 Sep 2020 00:08

Again propaganda is good. I would not put a Flt Lt in my premier plane. LCA yes, Mig 21 yes. There are many Wing co and Sq leader who can exploit 6 Rafales more than someone less experienced. We are at war or soon will be.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Vips » 24 Sep 2020 04:08

The Golden Girl: Rafale squadron’s 1st woman pilot is Varanasi’s Flt Lt Shivangi Singh.

The Indian Air Force’s (IAF) Rafale squadron’s first woman fighter pilot is Flight Lieutenant Shivangi Singh.

Commissioned into the IAF in 2017 as part of the second batch of women fighter pilots, Varanasi native Flt Lt Shivangi Singh is currently undergoing conversion training and will shortly become a formal part of the 17 Squadron, ‘Golden Arrows’ in Ambala.

India Today was the first to report on Monday on the development that a woman fighter pilot of the IAF was selected to join the newly inducted Rafale fighter fleet as one of its crew flying the multi-role air dominance aircraft.

Since her commissioning in 2017, Flt Lt Shivangi Singh has been flying MiG-21 Bisons. She arrives in Ambala from a border base in Rajasthan where she has flown alongside one of India’s best known fighter pilots -- Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman -- who was credited with shooting down a Pakistan Air Force (PAF) fighter on February 27 last year near the LoC before being shot down himself and taken captive.(Wing Commander Varthaman was Singh’s flying instructor)

Flt Lt Shivangi has had aviation dreams from a young age.
Image
After school in Varanasi, she joined the prestigious Banaras Hindu University (BHU), where she was part of the 7 UP Air Squadron in the National Cadet Corps. She then proceeded to the Air Force Academy for training in 2016.

Flt Lt Shivangi’s conversion training is unique. She will be converting from the IAF’s oldest jet, the MiG-21, to its newest jet, the Rafale. Also, Flt Lt Shivangi’s 2017 coursemate and fellow woman fighter pilot Flt Lt Pratibha is understood to be flying Su-30 MKI kegs at this time.

Image
Flight Lieutenant Shivangi Singh (R) during her induction into the IAF in 2017. She and colleague Pratibha (L) form the second batch of women fighter pilots inducted into the force

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Philip » 24 Sep 2020 09:56

Media reports in all papers CAG pulls up Dassault for not meeting its 50% offest contract obligations,transfer of high-tech,for LCA engines,etc. The deal was v.controversial,Dassault must deliver as specified and on time or
that will be the end of fuether Raffy purchases.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Cyrano » 24 Sep 2020 13:08

There is just one French woman Rafale pilot I could find reported on the web, Madame le commandant Claire Mérouze, in 2019.

A French news report mentions Avani Charurvedi as the woman pilot chosen to fly the Rafale, she also flew Mig 21 Bisons. With Shivangi Singh, perhaps we have 2 women soon to fly Rafales?

link

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 24 Sep 2020 13:21

Philip wrote:Media reports in all papers CAG pulls up Dassault for not meeting its 50% offest contract obligations,transfer of high-tech,for LCA engines,etc. The deal was v.controversial,Dassault must deliver as specified and on time or
that will be the end of fuether Raffy purchases.


The same CAG report mentions it covers the period 2015-18 and the Offset target is to be met 2022, so a sensible person would ignore the sensationalism.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kartik » 24 Sep 2020 13:32

Rafale has a 9000 hour service life as confirmed by the Dassault offer for Finland document.

Structural Design safe-life target of 9000 hours for the Airframe.


Rafale for Finland pdf

Regarding possible surge usage figures

Mature Aircraft, Combat & Support Proven RAFALE is in-service since 2004 in the Navy, since 2006 in the French Air Force. Entry first, international coalitions, joint and allied exercises, small deployment for crisis management…able to fly 350 hours in a month, and up to 1000 flight hours in a year;

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 24 Sep 2020 18:08

amar_p wrote:There is just one French woman Rafale pilot I could find reported on the web, Madame le commandant Claire Mérouze, in 2019.

A French news report mentions Avani Charurvedi as the woman pilot chosen to fly the Rafale, she also flew Mig 21 Bisons. With Shivangi Singh, perhaps we have 2 women soon to fly Rafales?

link

Yes, that is the news I read as well...that it was Flt Lt Avani Chaturvedi.

IAF's Rafale fleet to have 1st woman pilot soon
https://www.livemint.com/news/india/iaf ... 62798.html

The more the merrier. More pilots trained on the platform will allow greater number of sorties.

And I was wrong in my assessment below. The opposite is happening...

Rakesh wrote:There might be type conversion training for rookie pilots, but I doubt pilots (with the rank of Flying Officer) will be flying them right out of Air Force Academy. Only the cream of the crop in the IAF will get to fly them. At least initially. Later on, that will change.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 24 Sep 2020 18:49

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/130 ... 25155?s=20 ---> Indian audit report just in questions timelines/execution of offsets in the 2016 Rafale deal. It's talking here of the Safran-DRDO partnership to revive and beef up the Kaveri, that didn't come together. Full operative text from the report:

Image

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 24 Sep 2020 18:50

Succinct reply from a twitter user to the news above...which NO ONE will give.

https://twitter.com/neotruthseeker/stat ... 37696?s=20 ---> The problem is ToT, we need IP and not just ToT.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Vips » 24 Sep 2020 19:10

Rakesh wrote:link
Yes, that is the news I read as well...that it was Flt Lt Avani Chaturvedi.

I was also quite surprised that Women Pilots from the second batch are getting to fly our frontline fighters. What happened to the women from the first batch? Wouldn't they have more experience on other aircrafts under their belts to be considered first?

Rakesh wrote:And I was wrong in my assessment below. The opposite is happening...
Rakesh wrote:There might be type conversion training for rookie pilots, but I doubt pilots (with the rank of Flying Officer) will be flying them right out of Air Force Academy. Only the cream of the crop in the IAF will get to fly them. At least initially. Later on, that will change.

Still quite a change with comparative rookies (barely 2 year after completing training) are graduating to flying the frontline fighters. Compare that to the earlier times when it would take years before Pilots got to fly the Mirage 2000, SU30 MKI and Mig29's.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby brar_w » 24 Sep 2020 20:39

Vips wrote:Still quite a change with comparative rookies (barely 2 year after completing training) are graduating to flying the frontline fighters. Compare that to the earlier times when it would take years before Pilots got to fly the Mirage 2000, SU30 MKI and Mig29's.


Trends and cultures are changing the world over when choosing pilots to fly next-generation or newer systems in general. The USAF had begun introducing "rookie (no previous fast jet experience)" 1st lieutenants into into the F-22 enterprise just a couple of years post type introduction into service. Just a few years ago nearly 2/3rd of Raptor B-course grads were 1st Lts. This trend has continued with the F-35A as well and is now the accepted norm.
Last edited by brar_w on 24 Sep 2020 20:44, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 24 Sep 2020 20:42

Vips wrote:I was also quite surprised that Women Pilots from the second batch are getting to fly our frontline fighters. What happened to the women from the first batch? Wouldn't they have more experience on other aircrafts under their belts to be considered first?

The first batch I believe all started on MiG-21 Bisons. After flying them, they are moving on to other platforms. I have read about Su-30MKI, now there is Rafale. Just recently (like a month or two back perhaps), there was an article about a woman pilot being the first WSO on a Su-30MKI.

Rakesh wrote:Still quite a change with comparative rookies (barely 2 year after completing training) are graduating to flying the frontline fighters. Compare that to the earlier times when it would take years before Pilots got to fly the Mirage 2000, Su-30MKI and Mig29's.

That used to be the case. When a new type was inducted, the IAF would take experienced pilots from other platforms (MiG-21, MiG-27, etc) and put them on Mirage 2000 and MiG-29s. That would rob the the squadron they transferred from, the loss of experienced pilot(s).

That practice stopped sometime before or after the Su-30MKI was inducted. See below from 8:20 onwards. This video was shot in 2005. The Rambha was inducted on 27 Sept 2002, almost 18 years ago to the day at Lohegaon AFS. Those were the days i.e. Krishnaswamy Sir was the Air Chief and NAK Browne Sir was the base commander at Lohegaon AFS. And BR was a mere 5+ years old.


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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby nachiket » 25 Sep 2020 01:12

Vips wrote:Still quite a change with comparative rookies (barely 2 year after completing training) are graduating to flying the frontline fighters. Compare that to the earlier times when it would take years before Pilots got to fly the Mirage 2000, SU30 MKI and Mig29's.

I have often wondered about that considering that back in the bad old days of regular Mig-21/27 crashes and the phrase "Flying coffins" being hurled at Mig-21's routinely in the media, one issue that was discussed was that the Mig-21 was a difficult aircraft to fly for rookies. No FBW, single engine, high landing speeds, and absence of any feedback to warn the pilot that they were exceeding the aircraft's limitations in flight. Lack of an AJT exacerbated this problem.

One would think that rookies were better off going straight to pretty much any other fighter in the IAF when they were new out of training while the experienced flyers flew Mig-21's. While aircraft like the Su-30, M2k and Rafale have a variety of systems, capabilities and mission profiles unavailable on the Mig-21 and will need time to master for any pilot, when it comes to basic flying they are orders of magnitude safer to fly than a Mig-21 primarily because the FBW will prohibit the pilot from doing something that will put the aircraft in danger. Same with the Tejas. Tejas even has the auto-recovery feature that can save the life of a pilot who has blacked out. It also has a very reliable engine. Same with the M2k and Rafale. The MKI's engines may not be reliable but it has 2 and an engine failure does not automatically mean a crash.

The Mig-21 has none of these safety features. Rookies going to Mig-21 squadrons directly from training are basically going through a trial by fire. Perhaps that was the idea, make them such good pilots that they can go on to master any aircraft in the future because all of them will look like a walk in the park compared to the Mig-21.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetonzz » 25 Sep 2020 10:49

nachiket wrote:
Vips wrote:The Mig-21 has none of these safety features. Rookies going to Mig-21 squadrons directly from training are basically going through a trial by fire. Perhaps that was the idea, make them such good pilots that they can go on to master any aircraft in the future because all of them will look like a walk in the park compared to the Mig-21.


that is awesome :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby tsarkar » 25 Sep 2020 11:32

brar_w wrote:Trends and cultures are changing the world over when choosing pilots to fly next-generation or newer systems in general. The USAF had begun introducing "rookie (no previous fast jet experience)" 1st lieutenants into into the F-22 enterprise just a couple of years post type introduction into service. Just a few years ago nearly 2/3rd of Raptor B-course grads were 1st Lts. This trend has continued with the F-35A as well and is now the accepted norm.

True

Just like kids are the best users of the latest smartphones, operational experience showed young pilots were the best users of the latest fighters.

Putting a MiG-21 pilot in the cockpit of a Tejas or Rafale would make the chap fly the Tejas or Rafale like a MiG-21 and not exploit the expanded capabilities of the new fighter.

Just like a Nokia or Blackberry user wont exploit the full capabilities of an iPhone. He'll use the iPhone like a Nokia.

Also a youngster has their whole youth & flying hours available to hone their flying skills on the new machine.

An older pilot will either get promoted or retired and in both cases wont have enough flying hours remaining to devote to the new machine.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby A Sharma » 03 Oct 2020 04:58

France gives IAF demo of new targeting system on Rafale

The French defence ministry has revealed that an Indian Air Force pilot was given a demonstration of a new target acquisition system meant for the Rafale fighter.

The French defence ministry informed on its website earlier this week that an Indian Air Force pilot flew on a Rafale F3R fighter on September 22 that was equipped with the TALIOS target acquisition pod.

Targeting acquisition systems are sensors fitted on an pod mounted externally on the aircraft. They typically have laser seekers, infra-red and electro-optical sensors to acquire enemy targets on the surface and guide bombs or missiles onto them.

The TALIOS (which stands for Targeting Long-Range Identification Optronic System) was developed by French company Thales and deliveries to the French Navy and Air Force began in late 2018. It is scheduled to reach 'first operational capability' this month, the French defence ministry said.

The French defence ministry said the purpose of the flight with the Indian pilot was "to demonstrate the capabilities of the TALIOS in the air-to-air, air-to-ground and air-to-sea domains. For this first, the Indian pilot was able to note the added value provided by the TALIOS compared to the Rafale sensors. Regarding the air-to-ground capability, the effectiveness of the pod TALIOS both in its use during deep-strike missions and in the detection and engagement of small mobile targets was apprehended. In the air-sea sector, the TALIOS has proven itself in the tracking of boats."

Thales claims the TALIOS employs artificial intelligence technology for automatic detection of targets and can undertake both target acquisition and reconnaissance missions, in addition to providing colour imagery. Prior to the development of the TALIOS, the absence of a modern target acquisition system was perceived to be a disadvantage for the Rafale previously. Qatar ordered a US-developed target acquisition pod for its Rafale jets.

The TALIOS has not been sold to the Indian Air Force yet. The Indian Air Force has been using variants of the Litening target acquisition system from Israel's Rafael for several years now. In 2016, Rafael revealed it would supply 164 Litening pods to the Indian Air Force. The Litening has been integrated to several aircraft of the Indian Air Force, including the Mirage-2000, Jaguar and Su-30MKI. In 2017, Rafael expressed interest in supplying the Litening for the Indian Air Force's Rafale fleet.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Cyrano » 03 Oct 2020 15:44

What an interview ;)


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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby LakshmanPST » 05 Oct 2020 15:24

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/131 ... 79425?s=19

"Important: IAF chief indicates deliberations still on to decide whether to buy more Rafales or pursue separate 114 MRFA. Decisions to be taken in the next few months, he indicates. "

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby sankum » 05 Oct 2020 16:05

Better to go for more Rafales

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby nachiket » 05 Oct 2020 18:06

Well at least they are thinking along those lines and weighing the options which gives me hope. Actually buying 114 new fighters would not only increase IAF's logistical headache and add yet another new type, it would also be quite expensive and would probably be the death of the Tejas Mk2.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kakarat » 05 Oct 2020 20:13

My opinion is that IAF should go for 36 more Rafales and 72 to 80 Tejas Mk1+Mk2 or 80 ORCA

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Mort Walker » 05 Oct 2020 20:20

36 Rafales need to be ordered and 200 Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A. The cost effectiveness of production on the Tejas won't be realized until there are over 100 ordered and put into production. The GoI has been dragging its feet on placing these orders while shopping for other foreign arms.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 05 Oct 2020 20:28

nachiket wrote:
The Mig-21 has none of these safety features. Rookies going to Mig-21 squadrons directly from training are basically going through a trial by fire. Perhaps that was the idea, make them such good pilots that they can go on to master any aircraft in the future because all of them will look like a walk in the park compared to the Mig-21.


Indeed.

quite a few of them didn't survive to tell the tale. :mrgreen:

It was done because there wasn't much of an alternative.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 05 Oct 2020 21:37

https://twitter.com/zone5aviation/statu ... 50401?s=20 ---> Not the best day out, but you've gotta take the good with the bad. Rafale induction ceremony, 7 Wing (Ambala), 10 September 2020.

Image

Image

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Vips » 28 Oct 2020 08:49

Indian Air Force to get a big Rafale boost, 16 fighters to land by April.

The Indian Air Force’s strike capability is set for a boost with 16 omni-role Rafale jet fighters to be inducted into the Golden Arrows squadron by April 2021 and with France’s biggest jet engine maker Safran ready to make fighter engines and ancillaries in India, people familiar with the matter said on Tuesday.

Five Rafale jets flew to the Ambala airbase via Abu Dhabi on July 29 and have already been inducted into the IAF’s Squadron 17. The next batch of three Rafales will arrive in Ambala on November 5 directly from the Bordeaux-Merignac facility (there will be no stop as they will be fuelled mid-air), according to senior government officials. Seven Rafale fighters are already being used for IAF fighter pilot training in France.

Three more Rafales will arrive in January, another three in March and seven in April, taking the total number of fighters handed over to the IAF to 21 single-seat fighters and seven twin-seat trainer fighters. This means that by April next year, the Golden Arrows squadron will be complete with 18 fighters and the remaining three can be sent to the Hashimara airbase in north Bengal’s Alipurduar to counter the threat posed by China on the eastern front. All the fighters are equipped with Mica and Meteor air-to-air missiles along with Scalp air-to-ground cruise missiles. India has now requested Safran for the air-to-ground modular weapon known as Hammer with a 250kg warhead.

While France is willing to offer more Rafale fighters to India, Safran’s offer of making the Snecma M88 engines in India, four years from the day the contract is signed, is a welcome proposal, said the officials cited above.

Not only will the M-88 engines be used by Rafale fighters but these can also be deployed to power Light Combat Aircraft Mark II and twin-engine advanced multi-role combat aircraft developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The IAF plans to buy 83 LCA Mark I A jets, taking the total number of Tejas variants ordered to 123. Safran is said to be willing to offer engines with no third-country spare parts so that no additional approvals are needed, and with 100% indigenisation. The French offer may come up for discussion during foreign secretary Harsh Shringla’s visit to France, the UK and Germany, starting from Paris this Thursday. While DRDO can continue developing its own fighter engine, the Safran engine will fill the gap between development and manufacture.

Only the US, Russia and France have the capacity to produce fighter jet engines, with China still using the Russian RD-93 and RD-33 engines to power its jet fighters such as the J-31 and the JF-17.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Vivek K » 28 Oct 2020 09:36

Here we go again. LCA is headed for the Marut and Arjun fates. It seems that the MK1A will not even come and 114 Rafales will be ordered. IAF will come up with a flaw in the LCA and ask it to fix that in the next three years. Three years later, IAF will reject obsolete LCA and go in for F-35s.

BTW Chetak - are you laughing at the loss of Mig-21 pilots? Please correct that in your post if that is not what you intended.

Mort - you think that IAF will ever order 200 of any domestic product?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby tsarkar » 28 Oct 2020 11:22

nachiket wrote:Actually buying 114 new fighters would not only increase IAF's logistical headache and add yet another new type, it would also be quite expensive and would probably be the death of the Tejas Mk2.


Firstly, the 114 fighter RFP is actually to establish a new modern fighter production line in India and bring production techniques along with it. Dileep has also corroborated this point in a post in the Tejas thread. It will actually help the MWF, TEDBF/ORCA and AMCA program's productionization.

Secondly, IAF has BRD's for each aircraft type and with the ones for MiG-27, MiG-21 and Jaguar already idle or going soon, they will be re-purposed for Tejas Mk1/1A, Rafale, MMRCA.

The Mirage 2000 & MiG-29 BRD's will be re-purposed for MWF & TEDBF/ORCA thereafter.

Similarly the IAF has a large number of Equipment Depots. Details of BRD and ED in the link below -

https://indianairforce.nic.in/content/m ... ce-command

Neither maintenance nor logistics will be any problem.

Thirdly, we've operated small numbers of Mi-25/35. One HU of Mi-25 was inducted in 1983 and one HU of Mi-35 was inducted in 1990. They were heavily used in overseas operations like Sri Lanka, Congo

https://indianairforce.nic.in/content/helicopter

The first Attack Helicopter Squadron of IAF was raised as 125 (H) Sqn (GLADIATORS) on 01 Nov 1983 and equipped with Mi-25 helicopter Gunships. The Mi-35 was inducted in Apr 1990. 104 (H) Sqn was re-equipped with Mi-35 in 1990.


http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Galle ... res/Congo/

Image

We never had any maintenance nor logistics issues despite such a small number of heavily used attack helicopters.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Tanaji » 28 Oct 2020 19:38

It is interesting how adding a completely new type of aircraft results in “ Neither maintenance nor logistics will be any problem.” but the moment the LCA has not passed some ICQ milestone it does not get new orders as logistics are a nightmare.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 28 Oct 2020 20:48

Vivek K wrote:Here we go again. LCA is headed for the Marut and Arjun fates. It seems that the MK1A will not even come and 114 Rafales will be ordered. IAF will come up with a flaw in the LCA and ask it to fix that in the next three years. Three years later, IAF will reject obsolete LCA and go in for F-35s.

BTW Chetak - are you laughing at the loss of Mig-21 pilots? Please correct that in your post if that is not what you intended.

Mort - you think that IAF will ever order 200 of any domestic product?

Saar, why are you taking takleef over an article that is riddled with errors? Why? :)

Apart from the delivery schedule, please tell me how the article is sound? You are a senior poster, so read that article again please and tell me what how and what that reporter is stating is going to be possible?

With Safran failing to revive the Kaveri, they are probably looking at a MRO facility for the M88 turbofan...to fulfill their offset obligations. The reporter heard something along those lines and then added his own masala to it.

P.S. I have some "takleef" news for you in the MMRCA thread :)

But take heart, it is only a news report. Nothing confirmed. Don't get despondent.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Mort Walker » 28 Oct 2020 20:52

Vivek K wrote:Here we go again. LCA is headed for the Marut and Arjun fates. It seems that the MK1A will not even come and 114 Rafales will be ordered. IAF will come up with a flaw in the LCA and ask it to fix that in the next three years. Three years later, IAF will reject obsolete LCA and go in for F-35s.

BTW Chetak - are you laughing at the loss of Mig-21 pilots? Please correct that in your post if that is not what you intended.

Mort - you think that IAF will ever order 200 of any domestic product?


Not just the IAF, but it seems none of the branches will order any large numbers of domestically produced complex weapon systems. Ballistic missiles are prohibited for international sales, legally of course, and so those remain domestic. Beyond that it seems no government, either NDA or UPA has forced the armed services to purchase domestic systems in large numbers. Domestic MIC is of utmost importance for national security, but that idea has been lost. The complex industrial manufacturing base of India is very small and it seems no one from politicians and services are too interested in expanding it.

The Tejas beyond 40 or does not seem likely. No orders for large number of GE 404 or 414 engines even with a domestic offset clause. The claim is Snecma-Safran will cooperate with India for engine development with the purchase of the Rafale M-88 engine. This is a long long process as GE could partially produce within India.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby tsarkar » 28 Oct 2020 21:13

Tanaji wrote:It is interesting how adding a completely new type of aircraft results in “ Neither maintenance nor logistics will be any problem.

Absolutely. Its very simple to comprehend if you think logically and reasonably. The Mi-25/35 with 1000's produced and operated has a well established support base. So even numbers as low as 10 can be maintained and supported.

Same with most of the major MMRCA contenders. F-16 for example with 1000's flying. So neither maintenance nor logistics will be any problem

Tanaji wrote:but the moment the LCA has not passed some ICQ milestone it does not get new orders as logistics are a nightmare.

Its ICY and not ICQ

Yes, unless production standards are reached, it cannot be mass produced. And unless it reaches mass production standards, logistics will indeed be a nightmare. Once production standards are reached, the initial aircraft are retrofitted.

Typically for aircraft like Jaguar, Mirage 2000, MiG-29, Rafale its the OEM nation that end up using the initial non standard aircraft and they typically use it for training & operational conversion. So that headache is absorbed by OEM nation and the buying nation gets standardized aircraft.

Even after a students graduates (FOC) and clears a job interview (SQR), he stays on probation (ICY) for some time before his employment is confirmed.

They are called probationary officers in Government of India terminology

https://www.sbi.co.in/web/careers/probationary-officers

Career Path

The Probationary Officers will be on probation of two years during which they will be given intensive training. Towards the end of their probation / training period, they will be subjected to a screening process. While those Officers who achieve the predetermined standards may be confirmed and given placement in the next higher grade i.e., Officer Middle Management Grade Scale-II, others who qualify in the test but fail to achieve the standards set for placement in Middle Management Grade Scale-II, will be confirmed as Officer Junior Management Grade Scale-I. The services of those Officers who fail to qualify in this process will be terminated.


So you see, just graduation (IOC) and post graduation (FOC) and passing job interview (SQR) isnt enough. One has to pass probation (ICY) as well.

No matter how much one gripes and complains about this "unfairness", this is the natural flow of things.

BTW as a parent I know the pain and anxiety of having a child -
1. Pass 10th with good marks
2. Pass 12th with good marks
3. Engineering/Medical/Commerce entrance
4. Graduation
5. PG exams like GATE/CAT
6. Post Graduate
7. Job selection exam & intervew (UPSC)
8. Thereafter two years Probation

Most of members here are feeling the pain of Tejas undergoing this but the above process cannot be skipped.

The foreign expat employee has undergone the tests in his home country and the job exam and probation in India.
Last edited by tsarkar on 28 Oct 2020 21:36, edited 2 times in total.


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