India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Vayutuvan » 11 Oct 2020 04:10

Y I Patel wrote:There is so much focus on winter preparations. This makes me suspicious.

What if the real plan is not to tough it out through the winter?


Interesting. It could be a feint to make India amass troops and then start raining munition on the massed troops.

Anoop
BRFite
Posts: 451
Joined: 16 May 2002 11:31

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Anoop » 11 Oct 2020 10:39

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHGjVWDM1dc

Gen. Ata Hasnain explains his hybrid warfare framework of Chinese actions in Ladakh. His take on Pakistan's collusive potential in info warfare is instructive.

KL Dubey
BRFite
Posts: 1016
Joined: 16 Dec 2016 22:34

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby KL Dubey » 11 Oct 2020 19:14

^^Assuming that is correct, it still does not prove the PLA is perched on Blacktop. IA probably scaled Blacktop from the other side facing Pangong Tso. The PLA post on the bump is probably surrounded by the IA. Further if IA is also sitting just below the bump then it has a direct view of the PLA post/camp at Moldo. It means that we are now claiming more of our territory (in other words, we have "intruded into the PLA's perception of the LAC").

JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2783
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby JTull » 11 Oct 2020 22:11

Can someone explain why Black Top is so important? I see lot of obsession about it.

manjgu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2486
Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby manjgu » 11 Oct 2020 22:54

JTull wrote:Can someone explain why Black Top is so important? I see lot of obsession about it.



Highest feature south of pangong. ... 3 to 4 km across 'LAC'

hnair
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3995
Joined: 03 May 2006 01:31
Location: Trivandrum

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby hnair » 11 Oct 2020 22:55

JTull wrote:Can someone explain why Black Top is so important? I see lot of obsession about it.


Seem to be the tallest spot around and what’s got nice views to both Indian and cheeni facilities.

Guddu
BRFite
Posts: 991
Joined: 01 Dec 2008 06:22

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Guddu » 11 Oct 2020 23:07

Vayutuvan wrote:
Y I Patel wrote:There is so much focus on winter preparations. This makes me suspicious.

What if the real plan is not to tough it out through the winter?


Interesting. It could be a feint to make India amass troops and then start raining munition on the massed troops.


Sir troops are amassed by both sides, and both sides can rain munitions. Dont know what YIP meant, I would think that these troops can be used to take back POK. Just like the Chinese diverted troops to Ladakh from their war exercise.

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3090
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby abhik » 11 Oct 2020 23:52

KL Dubey wrote:^^Assuming that is correct, it still does not prove the PLA is perched on Blacktop. IA probably scaled Blacktop from the other side facing Pangong Tso. The PLA post on the bump is probably surrounded by the IA. Further if IA is also sitting just below the bump then it has a direct view of the PLA post/camp at Moldo. It means that we are now claiming more of our territory (in other words, we have "intruded into the PLA's perception of the LAC").

Lets take a step back and review the fact available to us:
1. Who is claiming we took Black top in the first place? Officially of course the government has not specified which heights were taken. A few days after the events 29/30, with the fog cleared, we have credible journalists like Vishnu Som, Nitin Gokhale saying explicitly that we don't have it while others like Shiv Aroor are dancing around the question. Apart from journalists we have some (one?) retired officers claiming that we do in fact have it.
2. We have officially confirmed that we have only occupied the heights on our side, and all evidence points to both Black top and Helmet top being on the Chinese side of the LAC (including the leaked Indian military map of the area), and there is no indication there are any "differences of perception" in this area.
3. Any photos or sat images indicating that we are on Black top? Not as far a I know.
4. What are the openly available photos and sat images telling us? There was no significant PLA camps on the southern bank of Pangong before Aug-29/30. But after that we can clearly see:
(a) A large camp at the eastern base of Helmet top (on Chinese side)
(b) Paths going to Helmet top ridge line from the east
(c) Positions on the Helmet top ridge line
(d) Positions on the Point 5157 and ridge line - this is along the LAC (plus camps along the valley east of Helmet top)
(e) Positions at the Bump - also along the LAC
(f) Positions at Gurung Hill/table top, along with a support camp at the base at our side (clearly ours).
IMO it is most logical that (a)-(e) are PLA positions (the recent video makes it clear that they are on (e) "the bump").
5. We actually don't need to be at Black top or even at the Gurung hill to have line of sight on Moldo, the hills on our side of Spanggur gap provide already provide us that. But it would give us a view of some of the camps east of Moldo along the lake shore (this along with the our positions on the Kailash range east of Spanggur gap will provide a comprehensive view of their positions).

I'd love to be proven wrong but that cannot be on the basis of Baba baneras type character's word.

hnair
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3995
Joined: 03 May 2006 01:31
Location: Trivandrum

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby hnair » 12 Oct 2020 00:04

I'd love to be proven wrong but that cannot be on the basis of Baba baneras type character's word.


Why are you targeting Baba Banaras? If you don’t like what he is saying, ignore him. Why bring him here to spine up your demand for more data about a hyper-sensitive sector?

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3090
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby abhik » 12 Oct 2020 00:26

JTull wrote:Can someone explain why Black Top is so important? I see lot of obsession about it.

1. As others have mentioned it is the highest feature in the area so it gives commanding view of the surrounding area.
2. It is ~1.5km inside the Chinese side of the LAC (no difference in perception here AFAIK), i.e. if we have captured this area that would mean we have crossed the LAC (which we have officially denied having done) and possibly removed any existing PLA troops from there.
3. The only road the Chinese have to the south shore of Pangong runs ~1.5 km to the north-east and downhill of black top (the PLA have a permanent position at the top of the ridge - same that was shown in a Chinese video a few weeks back). If we are indeed on Black top that would mean the entire south shore becomes unviable for the PLA because their sole connecting road can be easily cut off.
4. PLA by occupying Black top (along with Bump, Pt 5157 and Helmet top): (a) have established defensive positions from any attack from IA in this area (2) denied us a vantage position to observe their positions on the North shore of Pangong (finger areas). and (c) they now have a good view into our side including Chushul village and nearby military installations.

hanumadu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4832
Joined: 11 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby hanumadu » 12 Oct 2020 00:35

Look at the ridge line of Black Top. It is aligned East - West whereas the ridge line that India is occupying on LAC is North - South. Black Top may be highest but it does not offer protection from enemy fire. When firing starts, it will be the first thing that we will clear.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4057
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby nam » 12 Oct 2020 00:50

Post drone show by the Azeris, the Chinis might be tempted to carryout a mass drone night strikes on our positions. And quickly capture our positions and ask us to escalate.

Artillery cannot easily dislodge positions at heights. Airpower will be monitored. Loitering drones on the other hand are not easily detectable, can be employed en-masse.. would give the initial shock of an offensive and allow the PLA to grab these positions at minimum cost.

We would have to seriously escalate to get those positions back. We don't have the drones numbers like the Chinis.

Unless we have some localized radar cover, it is not easy to monitor the loitering drones.

hnair
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3995
Joined: 03 May 2006 01:31
Location: Trivandrum

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby hnair » 12 Oct 2020 00:58

Abhik, since you seem to be skirting admins questions for past two pages - should we be concerned about your keen interest over last two pages about a hyper-sensitive area?

hnair
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3995
Joined: 03 May 2006 01:31
Location: Trivandrum

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby hnair » 12 Oct 2020 00:59

nam wrote:Unless we have some localized radar cover, it is not easy to monitor the loitering drones.


All ridges seem to have some BFSR which can detect small metallic objects upto sidearms and this sector has LOROS deployed since a long time. Plus the Indian SIGINT seem to be able to listen in to lot of things not to mention telltale signs of a link. It won’t be easy

ManuJ
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 361
Joined: 20 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: USA

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ManuJ » 12 Oct 2020 01:22

abhik wrote:2. It is ~1.5km inside the Chinese side of the LAC (no difference in perception here AFAIK), i.e. if we have captured this area that would mean we have crossed the LAC (which we have officially denied having done) and possibly removed any existing PLA troops from there.

The LAC is not a fixed 'line' aka LOC. It is the line of actual control and thus fluid by definition.
The Chinese have time and again unilaterally altered the LAC by nibbling away at Indian territory, the most recent example being on the north shore of Pangong Tso.
Since Black Top is 30 kms inside the Indian claim line, India would have been well within its rights to assert control over it, especially given the recent Chinese precedents.

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14734
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pankajs » 12 Oct 2020 02:06

nam wrote:Post drone show by the Azeris, the Chinis might be tempted to carryout a mass drone night strikes on our positions. And quickly capture our positions and ask us to escalate.

Artillery cannot easily dislodge positions at heights. Airpower will be monitored. Loitering drones on the other hand are not easily detectable, can be employed en-masse.. would give the initial shock of an offensive and allow the PLA to grab these positions at minimum cost.

We would have to seriously escalate to get those positions back. We don't have the drones numbers like the Chinis.

Unless we have some localized radar cover, it is not easy to monitor the loitering drones.

1. Using drones to target our position would be an escalation that WILL invite retaliation and junk all their plans to win without fighting.
2. We would have sufficient drones to reverse target their position on Kailash range. The line of contact in that sub-sector is not big.
3. If it were so easy why have the Chinese waited for so long?

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14734
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pankajs » 12 Oct 2020 02:14

ManuJ wrote:
abhik wrote:2. It is ~1.5km inside the Chinese side of the LAC (no difference in perception here AFAIK), i.e. if we have captured this area that would mean we have crossed the LAC (which we have officially denied having done) and possibly removed any existing PLA troops from there.

The LAC is not a fixed 'line' aka LOC. It is the line of actual control and thus fluid by definition.
The Chinese have time and again unilaterally altered the LAC by nibbling away at Indian territory, the most recent example being on the north shore of Pangong Tso.
Since Black Top is 30 kms inside the Indian claim line, India would have been well within its rights to assert control over it, especially given the recent Chinese precedents.
It does not work like that ..

We claim the whole of Aksai Chin BUT there is a LAC that passes much inside the Indian claim line that both India and China have some sort of understand in most places. In the area under question i.e. the Spanggur/Chushul sector, the LAC passed through the Bump that is 1.5 km west of the Black top. This has been confirmed by multiple people including retired Indian Army officers as also by an Indian Army map that was leaked.

While there LAC is certainly not LOC, it is not as fluid as some would like to believe. Why else would the GOI want status quo ante to be restore rather than ask China to vacate ALL of Aksai China?

LakshmanPST
BRFite
Posts: 283
Joined: 05 Apr 2019 18:23

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby LakshmanPST » 12 Oct 2020 02:26

LAC is Line of Actual Control as it existed on the day the 1962 war ended...
It is theoretically NOT a fluid line...

KL Dubey
BRFite
Posts: 1016
Joined: 16 Dec 2016 22:34

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby KL Dubey » 12 Oct 2020 02:47

abhik wrote: I'd love to be proven wrong but that cannot be on the basis of Baba baneras type character's word.


However, the point is that nobody wants to prove you wrong or right except yourself. It begs the question of why you are insistent on this detail of Black Top ?

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3090
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby abhik » 12 Oct 2020 02:57

hnair wrote:Abhik, since you seem to be skirting admins questions for past two pages - should we be concerned about your keen interest over last two pages about a hyper-sensitive area?

Saar can you point out where I have asked for confidential info? And if you are talking about the below post from ramana, he is just making an assertion, without giving the reason as to why he thinks what I posted was wrong, what exactly should I reply to this? What I said was on the basis of the location/map of the positions, another poster has added this helpful graphic, where is the rebuttal to this? OR are we not to post any fact or views here which goes against certain mods assertions?

ramana wrote:And we have Blacktop.

hnair
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3995
Joined: 03 May 2006 01:31
Location: Trivandrum

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby hnair » 12 Oct 2020 03:17

abhik, you will not get anything more. Thanks

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4067
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby kit » 12 Oct 2020 03:45

abhik wrote:
hnair wrote:Abhik, since you seem to be skirting admins questions for past two pages - should we be concerned about your keen interest over last two pages about a hyper-sensitive area?

Saar can you point out where I have asked for confidential info? And if you are talking about the below post from ramana, he is just making an assertion, without giving the reason as to why he thinks what I posted was wrong, what exactly should I reply to this? What I said was on the basis of the location/map of the positions, another poster has added this helpful graphic, where is the rebuttal to this? OR are we not to post any fact or views here which goes against certain mods assertions?

ramana wrote:And we have Blacktop.



You do seem to ask very specific information that ordinary military enthusiasts would not ask , forget layman .. We are at war, and we can discuss much fewer specifics here.

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4067
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby kit » 12 Oct 2020 03:49

abhik wrote:
KL Dubey wrote:^^Assuming that is correct, it still does not prove the PLA is perched on Blacktop. IA probably scaled Blacktop from the other side facing Pangong Tso. The PLA post on the bump is probably surrounded by the IA. Further if IA is also sitting just below the bump then it has a direct view of the PLA post/camp at Moldo. It means that we are now claiming more of our territory (in other words, we have "intruded into the PLA's perception of the LAC").

Lets take a step back and review the fact available to us:
1. Who is claiming we took Black top in the first place? Officially of course the government has not specified which heights were taken. A few days after the events 29/30, with the fog cleared, we have credible journalists like Vishnu Som, Nitin Gokhale saying explicitly that we don't have it while others like Shiv Aroor are dancing around the question. Apart from journalists we have some (one?) retired officers claiming that we do in fact have it.
2. We have officially confirmed that we have only occupied the heights on our side, and all evidence points to both Black top and Helmet top being on the Chinese side of the LAC (including the leaked Indian military map of the area), and there is no indication there are any "differences of perception" in this area.
3. Any photos or sat images indicating that we are on Black top? Not as far a I know.
4. What are the openly available photos and sat images telling us? There was no significant PLA camps on the southern bank of Pangong before Aug-29/30. But after that we can clearly see:
(a) A large camp at the eastern base of Helmet top (on Chinese side)
(b) Paths going to Helmet top ridge line from the east
(c) Positions on the Helmet top ridge line
(d) Positions on the Point 5157 and ridge line - this is along the LAC (plus camps along the valley east of Helmet top)
(e) Positions at the Bump - also along the LAC
(f) Positions at Gurung Hill/table top, along with a support camp at the base at our side (clearly ours).
IMO it is most logical that (a)-(e) are PLA positions (the recent video makes it clear that they are on (e) "the bump").
5. We actually don't need to be at Black top or even at the Gurung hill to have line of sight on Moldo, the hills on our side of Spanggur gap provide already provide us that. But it would give us a view of some of the camps east of Moldo along the lake shore (this along with the our positions on the Kailash range east of Spanggur gap will provide a comprehensive view of their positions).

I'd love to be proven wrong but that cannot be on the basis of Baba baneras type character's word.


Here.. very specific info sought. Others should be beware of such posters.

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3090
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby abhik » 12 Oct 2020 04:04

KL Dubey wrote:
abhik wrote: I'd love to be proven wrong but that cannot be on the basis of Baba baneras type character's word.


However, the point is that nobody wants to prove you wrong or right except yourself. It begs the question of why you are insistent on this detail of Black Top ?

There has been conflicting reports and plenty of debate on this over the past month or so - I just posted a new open source fact that supports one side of case and my opinion on the same. People are free to debate it or decide or choose to believe what ever they want to and mods free to editorialise, nothing I can do (removing facts/views that are freely available elsewhere will be a loss to the BRF readers). And it's sad to see people casting malicious intent on my post, after having spent 10+ years here, like I'm some chi-pak bot.

sudarshan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2546
Joined: 09 Aug 2008 08:56

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby sudarshan » 12 Oct 2020 04:47

abhik wrote:There has been conflicting reports and plenty of debate on this over the past month or so - I just posted a new open source fact that supports one side of case and my opinion on the same.


Funny statement - going back and looking, it seems the conflict always started with you, and the debate was always about convincing you. For the record, I think Vishnu Som and Nitin Gokhale should leave the topic alone as well, don't know why they are so insistent on bringing it up again and again. Leave it to the IA to figure out these things.

KLNMurthy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4331
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 13:06

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby KLNMurthy » 12 Oct 2020 05:08

abhik wrote:
hnair wrote:Abhik, since you seem to be skirting admins questions for past two pages - should we be concerned about your keen interest over last two pages about a hyper-sensitive area?

Saar can you point out where I have asked for confidential info? And if you are talking about the below post from ramana, he is just making an assertion, without giving the reason as to why he thinks what I posted was wrong, what exactly should I reply to this? What I said was on the basis of the location/map of the positions, another poster has added this helpful graphic, where is the rebuttal to this? OR are we not to post any fact or views here which goes against certain mods assertions?

ramana wrote:And we have Blacktop.


Ramana can expand or not on his statement as per his choice and judgment.

It seems obvious to me that the existing ambiguity over what exactly India is controlling is not due to any oversight or incompetence, rather it is part of how our side is choosing to handle this very fluid war or near-war situation.

The stubborn insistent demands for very specific information, along with browbeating abuse of senior government figures (Modi is a coward, etc.,) in social and other media are coming principally and exclusively from very stupid people (the kind who imagine that India’s security apparatus is personally answerable to them, for example) or very bad actors.

All this should be well-known & well-understood by anyone who has been on this forum for any length of time.

Y I Patel
BRFite
Posts: 680
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Y I Patel » 12 Oct 2020 05:23

Guddu wrote:
Vayutuvan wrote:
Interesting. It could be a feint to make India amass troops and then start raining munition on the massed troops.


Sir troops are amassed by both sides, and both sides can rain munitions. Dont know what YIP meant, I would think that these troops can be used to take back POK. Just like the Chinese diverted troops to Ladakh from their war exercise.


What I mean to say is - let's not assume based on what is being aired in Indian media that India will dig in for the winter and not make the next assertive move before winter sets in... also, that IAF could well be the force delivering the punch.

What is going on with the mighty PLA? Wasn't Lt Gen Panag crying doom and gloom about the counterattack coming within 48 hours of India's occupation of strategic heights? I am very disappointed that they like IA Chai Biskoot so much.

ManuJ
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 361
Joined: 20 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: USA

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ManuJ » 12 Oct 2020 05:29

LakshmanPST wrote:LAC is Line of Actual Control as it existed on the day the 1962 war ended...
It is theoretically NOT a fluid line...

That's wrong.

First of all, the concept of LAC predates the 1962 war.
Secondly, the LAC and it's perception within China and India has changed multiple times and has not remained constant.
And third, in the particular region that we're talking about, India has a different perception of the LAC itself (which is different from India's overall claim line which is based on the Johnson Line of 1865).

That is why Indian patrols go to different patrol points (PPs) beyond Y Junction.
If India accepted the LAC as shown on Google Maps, why would claim its right to patrol points beyond that line?

In short, there is not a single, clean, well-demarcated LAC. Don't be fooled by GE.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 24189
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby SSridhar » 12 Oct 2020 07:12

abhik wrote: . . where is the rebuttal to this? OR are we not to post any fact or views here which goes against certain mods assertions?

abhik, do not argue with a mod over their admin requests or decisions. This is a formal warning for you. Anything more will earn a ban.

putnanja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4506
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: searching for the next al-qaida #3

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby putnanja » 12 Oct 2020 09:42

I think we do hold Black Top, but not the regular IA but SFF. Its held by Tibetians and not India in a way. I know its a play on words, but I think its possibly due to not wantng to give out whole truth. It could be a bargaining chip for Chinese to go back to Apr 2020 positions. Yes, Chinese occupied areas in our perception of LAC, we have to occupy areas in their percepption of LAC that we claim too, for negotiations to work. If we were occupying heights in just our side of LAC, I don't think the chinese would have protested so much. And they are the ones calling for military talks the last couple of times if I remember right.

I am pretty sure India has occupied some parts of chinese claim of LAC that we were not patrolling earlier. That explains the confidence of the political leadership. Else we would be in a worse off position just trying to make sure chinese don't occupy more features, and thats hardly a hand in negotiations. Of course we may occupy some heights, but thats theoretical till actual shooting starts. The position on ground is that chinese have occupied our territories in fingers 5-8 area, Depsang plains and hot springs area and they are not going to vacate it. If India doesn't start a shooting war, the chinese will have taken our large parts of area without firing a single shot (or more than 3 shots as there were reports that chinese were repulsed from coming hear black top earlier). And they would be sitting pretty without having to do anything.

For practical purpose, IA doesn't hold Black Top but I feel SFF does hold it and thats our tit for tat moves. Otherwise there is no tit for tat move. And Black Top is within our perception of LAC, so India technically didn't cross LAC as perception of LAC varies

LakshmanPST
BRFite
Posts: 283
Joined: 05 Apr 2019 18:23

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby LakshmanPST » 12 Oct 2020 10:09

https://twitter.com/danvir_chauhan/stat ... 30849?s=19
4 days back Chinese Infantry supported by 40-50 tanks in proper extended line just like an attack proper, moved dangerously close to 6 Grenadiers positions by 50 meters and returned. A demonstration extremely dangerous. What if our troops had opened fire??? #indiachinastandoff

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21057
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Philip » 12 Oct 2020 11:17

The mistake we've made over decades,no thanks to cowardly MEA mandarins in particular and sundry surrender- monkeys,other than the Sumdurong Chu stand-off during RG's era when Gen.Sunderji brilliantly had the Chins checkmated, then Doklam, has been TO ACCEPT the PRC's deliberately false maps,LACs,etc. It is the equiv. of saying that my wife is actually Xitler's as if repeating the lie a zillion times means I must hand her over to Xitler! :rotfl:

The time is past when we should demand that the PTC/PLA vacate Tibet,Aksai Chin, etc.,etc. ,which actually belongs to India.
It will make the PRC's demands appear ridiculous, and allod us et any future time to realign the boundary in our favour wherever we please. Past time to recognise Taiwan and Tibet too.

Davidrock
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 78
Joined: 10 Mar 2019 12:07

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Davidrock » 12 Oct 2020 11:21

putnanja wrote:I think we do hold Black Top, but not the regular IA but SFF. Its held by Tibetians and not India in a way. I know its a play on words, but I think its possibly due to not wantng to give out whole truth. It could be a bargaining chip for Chinese to go back to Apr 2020 positions. Yes, Chinese occupied areas in our perception of LAC, we have to occupy areas in their percepption of LAC that we claim too, for negotiations to work. If we were occupying heights in just our side of LAC, I don't think the chinese would have protested so much. And they are the ones calling for military talks the last couple of times if I remember right.

I am pretty sure India has occupied some parts of chinese claim of LAC that we were not patrolling earlier. That explains the confidence of the political leadership. Else we would be in a worse off position just trying to make sure chinese don't occupy more features, and thats hardly a hand in negotiations. Of course we may occupy some heights, but thats theoretical till actual shooting starts. The position on ground is that chinese have occupied our territories in fingers 5-8 area, Depsang plains and hot springs area and they are not going to vacate it. If India doesn't start a shooting war, the chinese will have taken our large parts of area without firing a single shot (or more than 3 shots as there were reports that chinese were repulsed from coming hear black top earlier). And they would be sitting pretty without having to do anything.

For practical purpose, IA doesn't hold Black Top but I feel SFF does hold it and thats our tit for tat moves. Otherwise there is no tit for tat move. And Black Top is within our perception of LAC, so India technically didn't cross LAC as perception of LAC varies


That is an interesting view point.

I too guessed that we captured BT, and since there were reports of some PLA casualty on 29/30 Aug night, it was most likely on BT, as there does not seem to be any other peak that was constantly occupied by the CA.

But then when we see Nathan Ruser's satellite images, it suggests we are not on BT. But then there can be maneuvers to fool the satellite into believing what we want to.

So in net, its only a guess game. Whichever peak we are in, we need to make sure we consolidate our position there.

Karna
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 46
Joined: 26 Mar 2020 23:23

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Karna » 12 Oct 2020 12:30

Do our adversaries have capabilities to bring down critical infrastructure? What impact does it have on our ability to take action on LAC/LOC?

The thought stems from the fact that the entire city of Bombay and adjoining areas are with out power for the past couple of hrs.

Mods : If the post is inappropriate I will take it down.

Cyrano
BRFite
Posts: 705
Joined: 28 Mar 2020 01:07

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Cyrano » 12 Oct 2020 13:25

The exact same thought crossed my mind. Chinese penchant for cyber attacks is well known. We need an independent and 100% Indian IT Co. to regularly audit our PSUs and other critical orgs regarding cyber security and be well prepared to fend off attacks and create counter attack capabilities. Cyber Command just like Space Command.

brvarsh
BRFite
Posts: 200
Joined: 03 Mar 2011 20:29

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby brvarsh » 12 Oct 2020 14:09

LakshmanPST wrote:https://twitter.com/danvir_chauhan/status/1315218174778830849?s=19
4 days back Chinese Infantry supported by 40-50 tanks in proper extended line just like an attack proper, moved dangerously close to 6 Grenadiers positions by 50 meters and returned. A demonstration extremely dangerous. What if our troops had opened fire??? #indiachinastandoff

What would have happened? Chinese would have lost 40-50 tanks and for next 200 years would have stopped such clownish drama.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4057
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby nam » 12 Oct 2020 14:13

Now that Nirbhay test has failed, I hope the Chinis have taken notice and decide not to leave...

I want them to stay longer.

pushkar.bhat
BRFite
Posts: 411
Joined: 29 Mar 2008 19:27
Location: prêt à monter dans le Arihant
Contact:

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pushkar.bhat » 12 Oct 2020 17:38

We had a Chai Biscuit session scheduled today. Right ? Heard the PLA was planning to bringing a MFA Babu just like we brought a MEA Babu the last time over.

madhu
BRFite
Posts: 429
Joined: 12 Oct 2005 17:00
Location: India

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby madhu » 12 Oct 2020 20:56

nam wrote:I want them to stay longer.

Keeping army on the toes for long that too in such harsh condition is no good. It will wear out and also fatigue sets in.

Remember chin is in comfortable oxygenated tent where are our boys are braving the nature.

VikramA
BRFite
Posts: 187
Joined: 29 Aug 2018 15:41

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby VikramA » 12 Oct 2020 21:02

if we are not occupying black top , then we are again repeating at least 50% of the mistakes on 62 that we made in the chushul sector. the only saving grace is that we control mukpuri near rezang la.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 58 guests