Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 12 Oct 2020 18:20

^ Extension upto 2 years can also be given on spl cases, for total of 62 years...

Frankly, I'm not a fan of Mig 21, due to
- its flight control problems.
- it's high landing speeds of 700 km/h + (conservative, I've heard higher)
- its lack of reliability
-- There are a few IAF officers who have got distinguished gallantry awards during peacetime for safely landing the Mig 21, after the bloody thing shuts down mid flight and the control actuators don't work.
- lack of spares ( you gents will be happy to know that HAL manufactured more than 600 of them, along with 165 Mig 27 and 160 Jaguars. Today, even flightworthy Mig 27 aircraft made in 1990s are retired due to lack of spares. We all know HAL makes Su 30 MKI. You see where all this is going? )

The performance of Mig 21 in service has been good, being a multirole aircraft which has shot down the enemy in 1971 and Kargil, and bested the USAF in Cope Exercises in 2006. It's simply outlived it's time.

IAF , HAL and most important, the Government, should invest in the Tejas and Su 30 MKI, which will meet our needs for another 40 years, albeit with various upgrades.

Them refusing to see the writing on the wall and turning a blind eye to a burning issue of national defence is downright criminal, I tell you!!

(Some ministers in current govt. are regularly accused of turning a blind eye, the Pakis have H&D issues, while we have HRD issues

)

RajaRudra · Post by **RajaRudra** » 12 Oct 2020 18:57

We have quiet a large number of this bird, what is the retirement all about. Simply throw away for junks ?
Is there a scope for automatic or robotic actuators (using a live simulator in the ground) whereby we can use this warrior birds as one time missile?

more over, enemy will not be knowing its manned / unmanned and will need to employ sufficient resource trying to intercept.

hemant_sai · Post by **hemant_sai** » 12 Oct 2020 19:16

@RajaRudra - Superb like for your suggestion. Such unconventional thinking for best possible use of our resources is the need of the hour.

In one of the conclave, Parrikar Sir had mentioned that yes squadron numbers are reducing but we have potent missile force to take care of the needs.

looking at how we are progressing on missile/artillery/heli developments, isn't it possible to take care of most of the war scenarios posed by western adversary by Army resources itself?

Of course not at this moment but in 2-3 years it is very much doable compared to waiting for new IAF aircrafts. On top of that if all soon to be retired stuff is used as @rajaRudra suggested - to reduce enemy assets - it will be awsm !!

S_Madhukar · Post by **S_Madhukar** » 12 Oct 2020 21:49

At the very least old Mig-21s are good test beds for UCAV technology and software... without testing there I am not sure how we will straight away jump to Ghatak... Also the Tejas Sport should be a good flight trainer (may be with an Indian engine when possible)

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 12 Oct 2020 21:52

S_Madhukar wrote:At the very least old Mig-21s are good test beds for UCAV technology and software... without testing there I am not sure how we will straight away jump to Ghatak... Also the Tejas Sport should be a good flight trainer (may be with an Indian engine when possible)

And why isn't the Rustom-II a good test bed for it?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 12 Oct 2020 22:01

dinesh_kimar wrote:^ Extension upto 2 years can also be given on spl cases, for total of 62 years...

Frankly, I'm not a fan of Mig 21, due to
- its flight control problems.
- it's high landing speeds of 700 km/h + (conservative, I've heard higher)
- its lack of reliability

Landing speed of 700km/hr is unadulterated nonsense. The landing speed is very high compared to other aircraft but it's in the range of 300-350 km/hr depending on landing weight etc.

None of the Mig-21 Bisons flying today are 60 years old. They were all originally Bis versions built by HAL from 1980-87.

Aryavarta · Post by **Aryavarta** » 13 Oct 2020 09:17

Unbelievable landing! Nerves of steel!

Mollick.R · Post by **Mollick.R** » 13 Oct 2020 13:44

dinesh_kimar wrote:^ Extension upto 2 years can also be given on spl cases, for total of 62 years...

Frankly, I'm not a fan of Mig 21, due to
..............................
The performance of Mig 21 in service has been good, being a multirole aircraft which has shot down the enemy in 1971 and Kargil, and bested the USAF in Cope Exercises in 2006. It's simply outlived it's time.

Saar with due respect, MIG-21 is never considered a Multirole Aircraft.
Its role an excellent interceptor which was used for CAP or point defence role too. Its limited fuel/ range issue (low on station time) is well known.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 14 Oct 2020 04:12

nachiket wrote:
Cain Marko wrote: They'll have plenty of mk1a to fill in the gaps by the time tedbf comes along. Not to mention occasional injections of rafale, 29s etc. India should simply order 300 mk1a and ramp up production on a war footing.

I don't see why it will take longer than 10 odd years, the m4k development would be a great model to follow... Simply a twin engined Tejas. Ideally with kaveris even if they just crank out 7.5kn thrust, not too different from rafale specs.
10 years itself is too long. With the MWF they were looking at first flight in 2023 followed by an accelerated testing schedule made possible because of the commonalities with the Mk1 and Mk1A. This is simply not possible with the TEDBF. And plus you have to look at the price and operational expenses of the resulting fighter. IAF is already top heavy with the 270 MKI and now Rafales joining them, plus the AMCA to follow later. If their needs are met by a single-engined medium weight fighter, then that's what they should get, especially when it is faster and easier to build that based on the Tejas anyway.

From what I understand, there are not too many commonalities between Mk1A and MWF. The latter is much bigger - girth and length, heavier, more powerful, canards, inlets etc. This is a 10-15 year process. So either way it will take time. Might as well go with a safer/future proof option in the TEDBF. The shortage in the meanwhile can be handled by MK1A and incremental improvements.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 14 Oct 2020 04:16

brar_w wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:I don't see why it will take longer than 10 odd years, the m4k development would be a great model to follow...
Any clean sheet twin engined 4.5 generation naval fighter, or an adaptation of such a fighter for land based operations, is a 12-15 year undertaking to design, develop, test, and have enter into production. Any time-horizon that is shorter than that is likely to introduce a whole bunch of risk and is therefore quite likely to not be met.

How long do you think the MWF is going to take? They have spoken of it since 2008 and even now it is not entirely clear if the design is frozen....missed opportunity of a joint IAF/IN Tedbf project was lost during this time, and will be lost again with energies scattered in 3 different programs all running at once.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 14 Oct 2020 04:21

Cain Marko wrote:
brar_w wrote:
Any clean sheet twin engined 4.5 generation naval fighter, or an adaptation of such a fighter for land based operations, is a 12-15 year undertaking to design, develop, test, and have enter into production. Any time-horizon that is shorter than that is likely to introduce a whole bunch of risk and is therefore quite likely to not be met.
How long do you think the MWF is going to take? They have spoken of it since 2008 and even now it is not entirely clear if the design is frozen....missed opportunity of a joint IAF/IN Tedbf project was lost during this time, and will be lost again with energies scattered in 3 different programs all running at once.

It is still a decade plus worth of engineering, development, dev and ops testing before you have limited operational capability and are at rate production. So the question is, when did the teams start, what articles are in mfg, what is flying (mission systems) and when do they begin generating the first developmental test sorties and how soon those pick up pace.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 14 Oct 2020 04:28

brar_w wrote:
Cain Marko wrote: How long do you think the MWF is going to take? They have spoken of it since 2008 and even now it is not entirely clear if the design is frozen....missed opportunity of a joint IAF/IN Tedbf project was lost during this time, and will be lost again with energies scattered in 3 different programs all running at once.
It is still a decade plus worth of engineering, development, dev and ops testing before you have limited operational capability and are at rate production. So the question is, when did the teams start, what articles are in mfg, what is flying (mission systems) and when do they begin generating the first developmental test sorties and how soon those pick up pace.

Sure there will be some sunk costs but there are opportunity costs too.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 29 Oct 2020 11:19

Couple of great shots of Jaguar DARIN 3 fighters

This one by Praneeth Franklin of a freshly upgraded Jaguar DARIN 3

This shot is simply amazing! JS series DARIN 3 fighter by Sanjay Simha..can anyone ID the airstrip below?

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 29 Oct 2020 16:05

Kartik wrote:can anyone ID the airstrip below?

Hosur Airport. Often used by HAL as a second airport and away from the civil congestion over Bangalore. During flight testing, having an airfield nearby for possible emergencies is helpful.

There used to be a private aeronautical company named Taneja Aerospace based at Hosur. Used to do outsourcing for HAL. Now does MRO for civil airlines.

https://www.taal.co.in/

titash · Post by **titash** » 29 Oct 2020 20:42

Kartik wrote:Couple of great shots of Jaguar DARIN 3 fighters

The DARIN III upgrade has been a smart & timely decision. The fighter will have a full glad cockpit, AESA radar, EO pod, apparently one of the 30 mm canon appears to be replaced with an internal jammer. It can fire near-BVR ASRAAM missiles from over-wing pylons at low level.

If we'd gotten the new engines, that would have been the icing on the cake, but irrespective, the upgraded fighter is a capable self escorting interdictor and will work great for a war with the PAF.

Weapons look good too...HSLD bombs, SAAW, LGBs, Harpoon missiles, CBU-105 anti-armour smart munitions. I guess it won't carry the stand off weapons like the NGARM and BrahMos etc. But a great config for dal-chawal missions.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 29 Oct 2020 22:24

There is no reason why the NGARM cannot be integrated with the Jaguars eventually. Brahmos of course is too big for anything besides the MKI.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 30 Oct 2020 00:02

nachiket wrote:There is no reason why the NGARM cannot be integrated with the Jaguars eventually. Brahmos of course is too big for anything besides the MKI.

Not sure If the VayuSena will use the Shamsher in a "door knocking" wild weasel roles.
The Su-30 is just perfect for the role.Highly survivable, long legs and that doosra banda.
The news about that new Altimeter and DASH integration for the Rambha means even low level moves will be a walk in the park.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 30 Oct 2020 00:06

How many military operations has the Jaguar been used or deployed ready to use for "dal-chawal missions"? It seems well past its life now and there is no reason to continue to operate it. Those funds need to be put into the Tejas Mk1 production.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 30 Oct 2020 00:22

Mort Walker wrote:How many military operations has the Jaguar been used or deployed ready to use for "dal-chawal missions"? It seems well past its life now and there is no reason to continue to operate it. Those funds need to be put into the Tejas Mk1 production.

Why would the IAF retire aircraft which have a considerable amount of residual life left in them? We are already facing a shortage of aircraft. We don't have that luxury. It is even more ridiculous to do that after performing a comprehensive upgrade on them. The newest Jaguars in the IAF were built after Kargil. The oldest ones built in Britain with the older mk.804 engines have been retired already AFAIK. The ones built by HAL in the 80's have the mk 811 engines with slightly higher thrust.

Yes the Jaguar does have some limitations due to being underpowered but that does not mean they are useless. The "dal-chawal" missions it is suited for have not been needed to be performed since we haven't actually fought a 1965/71 style war again. But throwing them away would be quite stupid. We haven't even ordered enough Tejas jets to replace the Mig-21's that have been retired or the ones which will be soon. Lets at least buy enough for that first before this Khayali pulao.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 30 Oct 2020 00:32

MeshaVishwas wrote:
nachiket wrote:There is no reason why the NGARM cannot be integrated with the Jaguars eventually. Brahmos of course is too big for anything besides the MKI.
Not sure If the VayuSena will use the Shamsher in a "door knocking" wild weasel roles.
The Su-30 is just perfect for the role.Highly survivable, long legs and that doosra banda.

Better to have multiple options available. Imagine fighting a two front war where the IAF is overextended and the Su-30's are needed for critical air-defense/air-superiority missions all along the borders. If the Jaguar is good enough to be used to drop LGB's it is definitely suited to launch NGARM's 100km away from SAM sites.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 30 Oct 2020 00:41

nachiket wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:How many military operations has the Jaguar been used or deployed ready to use for "dal-chawal missions"? It seems well past its life now and there is no reason to continue to operate it. Those funds need to be put into the Tejas Mk1 production.
Why would the IAF retire aircraft which have a considerable amount of residual life left in them? We are already facing a shortage of aircraft. We don't have that luxury. It is even more ridiculous to do that after performing a comprehensive upgrade on them. The newest Jaguars in the IAF were built after Kargil. The oldest ones built in Britain with the older mk.804 engines have been retired already AFAIK. The ones built by HAL in the 80's have the mk 811 engines with slightly higher thrust.

Yes the Jaguar does have some limitations due to being underpowered but that does not mean they are useless. The "dal-chawal" missions it is suited for have not been needed to be performed since we haven't actually fought a 1965/71 style war again. But throwing them away would be quite stupid. We haven't even ordered enough Tejas jets to replace the Mig-21's that have been retired or the ones which will be soon. Lets at least buy enough for that first before this Khayali pulao.

How many were built after 1999? I didn't think it was more than 2 squadron. The upgrade with DARIN III, new avionics, missiles without upgrading the engines seems to have little value. Having actual serviceable working aircraft is more important than building numbers on paper. If MoD and GoI were serious, they would have upgraded the engines. If money isn't there, then being the decommission process and put funds into the LCA Tejas Mk1.

titash · Post by **titash** » 30 Oct 2020 00:48

Mort Walker wrote:How many military operations has the Jaguar been used or deployed ready to use for "dal-chawal missions"? It seems well past its life now and there is no reason to continue to operate it. Those funds need to be put into the Tejas Mk1 production.

The Jaguar is designed to operate at sea/low level. Based on its design parameters, it will do very well in a full blown confrontation on the plains i.e. with Pakistan where you will interdict Pakistani airspace and drop large numbers of bombs on fuel & ammo dumps, railway marshaling yards, airbases, etc. As a dedicated strike aircraft, it also represents our airborne free fall nuclear weapons delivery capability

It specializes in deep strikes at high speed/low level. That is precisely why it was bought; fortunately or unfortunately, through no fault of the aircraft itself, we've never tested it in anger. The military operations you want to list have simply not happened.

The IAF persisted with early MiG-21 versions since 1965 till very recently, but it swiftly disposed off the contemporary Su-7. The MiG-21 Bis joined the IAF in the early 1980s and is still going strong 40 years later as the Bison, unlike the later and more advanced MiG-23 MF. Likewise the 1970s Jaguars have been retained while the 1980s MiG-23 BN & MiG-27 fleets were phased out. Why?

It's because the reliability, mission profile, and cost-of-ownership justified it. There is a very good reason to continue operating these aircraft even today:
1) There is no cost effective replacement in sight. Scrapping the avionic upgrades on 60+ Jaguars will not buy you more than a few Tejas fighters
2) They still get the job done, given well trained and motivated pilots like Abhinandan
3) Avionic/Armament upgrades like AESA/RWJ/Lightening/ASRAAM narrow the gap with newer generation fighters
4) Since we manufacture the fighters locally and have bought 30+ spare airframes from UK/France/Oman, supporting the fleet is not an issue for the next decade or so

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 30 Oct 2020 00:57

nachiket wrote:
MeshaVishwas wrote: Not sure If the VayuSena will use the Shamsher in a "door knocking" wild weasel roles.
The Su-30 is just perfect for the role.Highly survivable, long legs and that doosra banda.
Better to have multiple options available. Imagine fighting a two front war where the IAF is overextended and the Su-30's are needed for critical air-defense/air-superiority missions all along the borders. If the Jaguar is good enough to be used to drop LGB's it is definitely suited to launch NGARM's 100km away from SAM sites.

Even during the Op Bandar(?), we had to escort the Jags with the Su for pulling off the F-16s away from the Mirages, doubt many solo Jag missions against a near peer adversary.
But having said that, I will not mind more platforms adopting the Rudram.
Afterall we did have the Martel ARM for the Jags so tactics may be in place already.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 Oct 2020 01:14

The NGARM is likely a specialist weapon for the Su-30 given its size and weight. But who knows centerline carriage on the Jaguar maybe.

I am not sure we got the Martel ARM for the Jaguar. Haven't seen pics of it in IAF service. Has anyone?

titash · Post by **titash** » 30 Oct 2020 01:55

Karan M wrote:The NGARM is likely a specialist weapon for the Su-30 given its size and weight. But who knows centerline carriage on the Jaguar maybe.

I am not sure we got the Martel ARM for the Jaguar. Haven't seen pics of it in IAF service. Has anyone?

Martel --> ARMAT --> Sea Eagle; all share a common airframe heritage; all weigh approx 1000-1100 lbs. The Jag should be able to take these on wing or centerline. Our Sea Eagles were carried on the centerline. Likewise the Harpoon carried on the centerline is 1150 lbs.

The NGARM and Kh-31 are in the 1300 lbs class. Perhaps length/weight may preclude carrying these on the centerline. Irrespective, Pakistan's depth is so shallow, most Punjab/KP/PoK logistics targets are within 200-400 km from our border airbases. Perhaps the Su-30s can bash in the door with NGARMs and the Jaguars can take over for the dal-chawal work. It's all in the tactics.

Prithwiraj · Post by **Prithwiraj** » 30 Oct 2020 04:55

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 30 Oct 2020 05:30

Beautiful video. Thank You Prithwiraj.

Folks, check this out. The second photo is SFDR.

https://twitter.com/Kuntal__biswas/stat ... 76737?s=20 ---> Regaining the BVR edge. Astra equipped MiG-29.

sajaym · Post by **sajaym** » 30 Oct 2020 20:35

X posting from

1) International Aerospace Discussion - Jan 2018

brar_w wrote:USAF contracting Lockheed to allow for up to 32 JASSM-ER (and XRs) missiles to be launched from a single C-17 -

AFRL Moves To Equip Cargo Planes With Bombs In a Box

and 2) from "INS Vikrant News and Discussion"

Philip wrote:More than 100 Backfires were in use in 2014. Russia has/ is modernising around 24 of them plus a number of TU-142/95 Bears,which we retired, and restarted Blackjack production. All have seen large action in the Syrian conflict sending ISIS into oblivion. Bears regularly test UK air defences. There are enough if we want a dozen or so. The PAK-DA stealth bomber will also appear in this decade.That is a project which we should start,a LR desi stealth bomber for the IAF and IN to appear post 2030.

Looks like Philip might finally get some bombers after all!

@Philip: No buying and maintaining white elephants like Bears, Backfires... just load Nirbhays into pallets in a C-17 and there's your bomber... 11 of them...right in the Chinks backyard!

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 30 Oct 2020 21:12

sajaym wrote:Looks like Philip might finally get some bombers after all!

basant · Post by **basant** » 30 Oct 2020 22:03

IAF Tests BrahMos Missile; Su-30 MKI Fighter Takes Off From Punjab, Destroys Target 4,000 Km Away In The Indian Ocean: Report

The Indian Air Force (IAF) today test-fired an air-launched version of the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile from a Su-30MKI fighter.

The fighter, which took off from an IAF base in Punjab, struck a target deep in the Indian Ocean using the cruise missile, reports say.

The target was 4,000 km away from the base the IAF fighter took off from. The Su-30 MKI fighter was refueled mid-air during its journey to the point from which the 300-km range missile was to be launched.

This is the third BrahMos missile test in the last two months.

Earlier this month, Indian Navy’s indigenous stealth destroyer INS Chennai had test-fired a naval version of the missile in the Arabian Sea.

Barath · Post by **Barath** » 04 Nov 2020 10:49

titash wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:How many military operations has the Jaguar been used or deployed ready to use for "dal-chawal missions"? It seems well past its life now and there is no reason to continue to operate it. Those funds need to be put into the Tejas Mk1 production.
The Jaguar is designed to operate at sea/low level. Based on its design parameters, it will do very well in a full blown confrontation on the plains i.e. with Pakistan where you will interdict Pakistani airspace and drop large numbers of bombs on fuel & ammo dumps, railway marshaling yards, airbases, etc. As a dedicated strike aircraft, it also represents our airborne free fall nuclear weapons delivery capability

It specializes in deep strikes at high speed/low level.

The fate of RAF Tornadoes in the Gulf war, indicate the increasing risk of low level attacks, especially without SEAD/DEAD and air superiority. Proliferation of MANPADS, integrated air defence, AEW&C aircraft and look down radar increase the hazard for low level deep interdiction mass strikes. The Jaguar can still fly these situationally, but more likely as part of large scale maneovers involving multiple packages. Terrain and ground scatter can still help

It didn't do too great at Kargil (in terms, of effectiveness, though it certainly flew missions), either AFAIK, as it didnt have the requisite precision bombing capability, though you will be hard pressed to find any actual evaluation in public sources. Also, Kargil had high altitudes and enemy soldiers with Stingers at those altitudes, as well as difficult mountainous terrain for targets. The Jaguar has multiple possibilities, though, it can fly at medium altitude, and be outfitted with precision weapons/avionics in addition.

Still, only about 60 birds will undergo DARIN III, if and when it is funded and executed, and the remaining surviving ones remain at DARIN II., It remains underpowered, and avionics still has costs and earlier ones, likely massive gaps.

The airborne nuclear mission, however, has to be assigned to more modern and survivable aircraft. Indeed, isn't that why India got Rafales ?

Barath · Post by **Barath** » 04 Nov 2020 10:54

https://theprint.in/opinion/high-tech-d ... em/532979/

An unfortunately titled piece, and a rebuttal.

https://theprint.in/opinion/what-indias ... ai/535603/

The latter says that the network battlefield mangement system of the IA doesn't exist and had been scrpped with no replcement in sight, since 2018.

Surely, the AF has AF.net or at least plans for the same; wouldn't this be more appropriate ? Wouldn't it be easier to extend these for the purpose of drones and ISR ?

Or would the command and plans for these come under cyber command under the CDS..

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 04 Nov 2020 18:26

Not sure why people are writing the obituary of the Jaguar.

It is the development platform for the SAAW. Most likely the SAAW platform will go on Jaguar.

It has received new weapons like Harpoon, CBU-105 and ASRAAM

In the same photo, notice the RWR bumps in the nose that can be used for initial cueing of NGARM.

A newer EW system was under development for DARIN III though I'm not aware of its status

Regards weight, both the inner wing and fuselage hardpoints can carry Sea Eagle or Harpoon missiles that weigh the same as NGARM.

Fuel tanks are required for the Anti Shipping role given the need to fly from Pune where they were based earlier to close to Pakistani coast where their targets were but in an SEAD role the fuel tanks can be substituted with NGARM.

RajaRudra · Post by **RajaRudra** » 04 Nov 2020 18:56

Jaguar has enough teeth to play a role even in the first few days of the war . After the first few days of war, with sufficient degradation of AA resources of the enemy, IAF will find a role even for Hawk to take part.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Nov 2020 19:48

Armed Hawk.YAK-130s,the Italians have their clone of the Yak,are all cost-effective GA/ CS birds, costing a fraction of current frontline fighters. Armed with stand-off PGMs,their increased survivability,out of range of MANPADS,makes them better for batlefield support than dven attack helos,which run the gauntlet of ground fire which has grown increasingly in recent times.70%+ of all IAF losses in war have been to ground fire,not air combat.
One is not advocating dumping thd attack helo- a helo has its own attributes, but an attack trainer as the ones mentioned are far cheaper than an Apache which comes with a Rolls equiv. price!
Thus the Jag certainly has great value,esp. if upgraded ,in fact another 2 sqds. built would do no harm.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 04 Nov 2020 19:48

Barath wrote:
titash wrote:
The Jaguar is designed to operate at sea/low level. Based on its design parameters, it will do very well in a full blown confrontation on the plains i.e. with Pakistan where you will interdict Pakistani airspace and drop large numbers of bombs on fuel & ammo dumps, railway marshaling yards, airbases, etc. As a dedicated strike aircraft, it also represents our airborne free fall nuclear weapons delivery capability

It specializes in deep strikes at high speed/low level.
The fate of RAF Tornadoes in the Gulf war, indicate the increasing risk of low level attacks, especially without SEAD/DEAD and air superiority. Proliferation of MANPADS, integrated air defence, AEW&C aircraft and look down radar increase the hazard for low level deep interdiction mass strikes. The Jaguar can still fly these situationally, but more likely as part of large scale maneovers involving multiple packages. Terrain and ground scatter can still help

It didn't do too great at Kargil (in terms, of effectiveness, though it certainly flew missions), either AFAIK, as it didnt have the requisite precision bombing capability, though you will be hard pressed to find any actual evaluation in public sources. Also, Kargil had high altitudes and enemy soldiers with Stingers at those altitudes, as well as difficult mountainous terrain for targets. The Jaguar has multiple possibilities, though, it can fly at medium altitude, and be outfitted with precision weapons/avionics in addition.

Still, only about 60 birds will undergo DARIN III, if and when it is funded and executed, and the remaining surviving ones remain at DARIN II., It remains underpowered, and avionics still has costs and earlier ones, likely massive gaps.

The airborne nuclear mission, however, has to be assigned to more modern and survivable aircraft. Indeed, isn't that why India got Rafales ?

DARIN3 is already funded and underway. DARIN2 Jags are amongst some of the most sophisticated aircraft in our inventory in terms of A2G strike.
Jags will likely fly at low alt for penetration, go to medium for PGM strikes, again low level for egress. Thats a possible method they are well suited for.
Unlike RAF Tornados we don't plan fixed attacks over runways to take them out.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 04 Nov 2020 20:21

Barath wrote:https://theprint.in/opinion/high-tech-d ... em/532979/

An unfortunately titled piece, and a rebuttal.

https://theprint.in/opinion/what-indias ... ai/535603/

The latter says that the network battlefield mangement system of the IA doesn't exist and had been scrpped with no replcement in sight, since 2018.

Surely, the AF has AF.net or at least plans for the same; wouldn't this be more appropriate ? Wouldn't it be easier to extend these for the purpose of drones and ISR ?

Or would the command and plans for these come under cyber command under the CDS..

Don't want to badmouth veterans, but Lt Gen Panag (R) writings are competing with barely disguised propaganda of another veteran, Praveen Sawhney. Both talk a lot without making much sense and sometimes it's hard to guess who they are batting for.

Sure, India should have more drones and they should see greater role. But to see a Lt Gen advocating use of loitering drones with their puny payloads and higher cost over air strikes by heavier guided bombs only makes you wonder about what is really going on in his head. How exactly is it cost effective to use a drone worth 70-80 crore to destroy a tin shed full of barely trained jihadis?

Same strikes could have been done by cruise missiles and even MBRLs. Yet the professionals in service who planned and executed the missions chose their weapons according to their objectives. Just because you see some lightly armed nations with barely any military infrastructure and rag tag militias using cheap drones for mostly psychological effects doesn't mean that India should start copying them too. India bught 8-9 Harops for USD 100 million and supposedly has an inventory of around 60-70. They're most likely reserved for high value targets like radars, C&C centers etc. Using them against terrorist camps made of mud would be like US firing Hellfire from Predator on a Talibani on foot.

Indian armed forces didn't even release pictures of the radar screens and he expects that they'll release footage from suicide drones for 'psychological effect'

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 06 Nov 2020 12:17

Yes, talking about drone strikes when soldiers weren't even using their rifles because of the "no shooting" agreement is ridiculous.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Nov 2020 00:40

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1326 ... 32386?s=20 ---> The CAS, Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria visited bases in the South Western sector today. He assessed infrastructure development at Air Force Station Deesa and directed close monitoring and speedy completion of works which includes construction of runway.

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1326 ... 21926?s=20 ---> Later in the day, CAS visited Air Force Station Vadodara and reviewed operational preparedness. He urged station personnel to continue discharging their duties with utmost sincerity and ensure a high state of readiness.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 15 Nov 2020 01:47

nachiket wrote:Yes, talking about drone strikes when soldiers weren't even using their rifles because of the "no shooting" agreement is ridiculous.

Indeed. I feel quite a few in this forum are so susceptible to weapon brochuritis and recently, the Cheeno-Tuluqan propaganda. It has reached a crescendo since those psy-ops posts about Azerbeijan using turkish drones that everyone is "advising" Indian military on stuff that the military seem to have a bead on - beating back border shenanigans of cheeni-pakis. And now even a retired senior military leader is talking in those terms <FACE PALM>

We see carefully curated footage of a mere handful of Azerbaijani drones taking out what seem like stand-down and immobile Armenian armor and a lot of people here are posting as if the chinese or pakis can actually co-ordinate and execute a CAS on Indian military using such drones in their thousands. Converse is also not going to happen - Indian drones raining down on paki-cheeni posts.

No one seem to be wondering why such drones did not work against US military, who operates numerous outposts in the ME region and has been reaping crazy beards in that area since the 1990s gulfwar,. It is not like the crazy beards dont have a paucity of funding - they could have easily acquired such drones or jury-rigged a few from DJI store. Other than manpower intensive VBIED (that too seem more or less neutralized), nothing seemed to work against khan outposts. Reason is straightforward: khan doesn't depend on a single system to defend their troops or facilities, they layer everything including ECM into their deployment, when they go in.

Forget the extensive Indian ECM capabilities against lower capability drone-links or layers of AD, even the basic rules of engagement as you rightly pointed is clear on both the borders - escalate weapon capability and get a rain of 155 mms on your doormat.