Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8290
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Indranil » 12 Feb 2021 03:35

brar_w wrote:
Indranil wrote:I don't fully understand why they went for a turbojet. Wouldn't a sustainer rocket engine for example the ones seen in anti-armor, anti-ship missiles be cheaper and less cumbersome.


My guess is that the turbojet gives them better range and envelope considering that majority of the aircraft employing this munition (and needing the additional stand off range) will be altitude constrained in a heavily defended environment due to their RCS and survivability concerns. This will allow their F-16's and F-15 I's to stay low while still getting some of the stand off advantages that the glide Spice had when launched from altitude. They've basically followed the UK approach (Spear III) though had they primarily designed for their F-35I integration they would have probably preferred a faster weapon that could at the very least retain the traditional time-to-target at double or more the distance when launched from altitude. Not sure if this solution will get them that. Even with the turbojet the max range shots are going to take quite a long time to get to target which is not optimal for some of the target set on the 250 class weapon though it would make sense for the larger Spice family packages if they apply the same solution set there (like the JSOW for example).

I was thinking along similar lines. With better ISP they can go further. They were working with one other constraint: They couldn't change the dimensions, at least length and width. Otherwise, they wouldn't fit on the current quad launchers.

But how much further can they go using a turbojet over a sustainer rocket. There cannot be more than 10 kg of fuel involved. With the turbojets, they can go 10 kms more over a sustainer rocket motor? And if space is a consideration, wouldn't a nozzle-less solid rocket motor be even more lucrative?

There must be a good explanation. Just can't see it.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9624
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 12 Feb 2021 04:08

Pure range yes. I’m the type of targets they they would want to attack say inside Iran could probably mean they the munition may have to climb from a lower altitude and then cruise. Not sure what else they would have needed to change to accommodate other propulsion solutions. So it may not be a pure range play as much as a broader envelope within different launch profiles. One would have thought that they would have started with the 1000+ category of Spice but then they probably have a lot of targets in their own operational need so the 250 with the larger magazine may make sense there.

MeshaVishwas
BRFite
Posts: 578
Joined: 16 Feb 2019 17:20

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby MeshaVishwas » 12 Feb 2021 19:22

Must watch!
Garuda in the Vayusena!

All three sessions are superb!
Please like, share and subscribe to CAPS!

jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5361
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby jamwal » 18 Feb 2021 13:21

Are there any plans to move or raise any air force units at Jammu airport? The runway is being lengthened from 6500 to 800 ft. It is an IAF base with a civil annexure/enclave. The expansion work is being undertaken by IAF too.
One major security risk is some old grave which has been converted in to a "shrine" by the faithfool only a few meters from the runway.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8207
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 18 Feb 2021 13:31

I doubt it. Udhampur is less than 40km away as the crow flies and has a 9000 ft runway. Plus no civilian traffic there either. Better place to permanently base a fighter unit if they wish to IMHO. Unless they ran out of space there of course. It is home to one or two helicopter units.

jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5361
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby jamwal » 18 Feb 2021 13:45

There are some other birds too which I've heard and noticed since late 90s.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12605
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 18 Feb 2021 13:54

jamwal wrote:Are there any plans to move or raise any air force units at Jammu airport? The runway is being lengthened from 6500 to 800 ft. It is an IAF base with a civil annexure/enclave. The expansion work is being undertaken by IAF too.
One major security risk is some old grave which has been converted in to a "shrine" by the faithfool only a few meters from the runway.


As Nachiket says, highly unlikely but Jammu, Amritsar runways have an importance, being close to the Pak border, these runways will be first available for IAF aircraft with Fuel or emergencies to land.

They will not be permanent IAF bases but emergency bases for aircraft coming in.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12605
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 18 Feb 2021 14:20

Interesting looking at google maps, Srinagar AFB at 33°59'28.6"N 74°45'52.1"E (33.991279, 74.764458- digital) coordinates we seem to have SU-30MKI's there, previously it used to be a Mig 21 Bison base.

This has equal relevance to Chinese front as the Pakistanis, as being at 5500 feet , the flight distance is 320KM to DBO and 360 KM to Chushul.

50Km from LOC, 135km to Kahuta and 160Km to Chaklala AFB Rawalpindi.

Only thing is I am sure about the Hanger size, there about 8 aircraft out in the sun.

Another important airbase is Saraswa Airbase- UP, it on the plains and 340Km from Ngari Airbase, take off release a bunch SAAW's with mountains for cover and Ngari runway taken out of operations buying IAF crucial time.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8207
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 18 Feb 2021 15:00

Aditya_V wrote:Interesting looking at google maps, Srinagar AFB at 33°59'28.6"N 74°45'52.1"E (33.991279, 74.764458- digital) coordinates we seem to have SU-30MKI's there, previously it used to be a Mig 21 Bison base.

No. 51 Squadron (WingCo Abhinandan's unit) is permanently based in Srinagar. So the Mig-21's should still be there. Perhaps dispersed in shelters. The Su-30's must be a temporary detachment.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 10633
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 19 Feb 2021 07:12

https://twitter.com/IndianDefenceRA/sta ... 80586?s=20 ---> Air Marshal Amit Dev, AOC-in-C of EAC visited forward locations in Sikkim & interacted with Indian Army to synergize and support the efforts of Army. He also interacted with aircrew of Apache Unit, which has been deployed in eastern sector for the first time.

Image

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 10633
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 19 Feb 2021 21:07

The MiG 29 ‘Baaz’ Story By A Young Defence Enthusiast
https://airpowerasia.com/2021/02/19/the ... nthusiast/
By Shwetabh Singh Rajput

Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2523
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 19 Feb 2021 21:44

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/IndianDefenceRA/status/1362386568787480586?s=20 ---> Air Marshal Amit Dev, AOC-in-C of EAC visited forward locations in Sikkim & interacted with Indian Army to synergize and support the efforts of Army. He also interacted with aircrew of Apache Unit, which has been deployed in eastern sector for the first time.


Nice.. so will they be called 'Apache Indians' with the motto 'Boom Shake-the-Yaks' :mrgreen:

LakshmanPST
BRFite
Posts: 347
Joined: 05 Apr 2019 18:23

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby LakshmanPST » 23 Feb 2021 12:36

Hope this post is not considered as spam... :)
Having seen lot of discussions regarding projected Squadron Strength of Indian Air Force, I thought it will be good to tabulate the projections... However, as I started writing them down, it became obvious that the variables are just too many...
So, after much thinking, I prepared a simple Excel Sheet... The format I prepared is as follows:-

A) Input Data:-
I prepared two tables fir input data...
In Table 1, I entered the details of existing 'Old' jets... Old as in, all jets bought before Tejas...
The variables for each type are:-
1) No. of existing squadrons
2) year of retirement commencement and
3) rate of retirement...

In Table 2, I entered details of all New jets to be procured... New as in, all jets bought/to be bought after Tejas...
The variables for each type are:-
1) Year of signing of contract
2) No. of jets ordered
3) Rate of production of the jets
4) No. of jets per squadron
5) Rate of retirement (this input is not necessary for near future)

Sample Input Tables 1 & 2 are as shown below--->
Image
The cells highlighted in Yellow are the variables to be entered... All other values are fixed/filled automatically...
-
B) Output Data:-
Once the above data is entered, we come to the Output Table... In Ouput Table, we just have to enter the year (any year after 2021) and the squadron composition & numbers of the that particular year is tabulated automatically...

Sample Output Table is as shown below--->
Image
-
Since it is difficult to compare year on year changes with the above Output format, I prepared a modified version of the Excel Sheet... In the modified version, the squadron composition will be automatically filled for any six years you enter...
----
For general analysis and overall view of things, I considered three cases for calculating the variation in squadron numbers which I'm sharing below--->
-
1) With all currently planned/projected orders... (With MRFA, No Additional Rafale, No ORCA):-
Image
Some Assumptions considered:-
i) Nos. of Tejas Mk2, AMCA and MRFA based on recent news articles which gave numbers 170, 2+5 squadrons and 114 respectively...
ii) For year of signing of Contract, I considered it 2 years after the jet is ready for production to take care of bureaucratic complications... I took 'ready for production' year from Satheesh Reddy sir's recent presentation shared here before AeroIndia...
iii) Tejas Mk1 contract details were entered randomly...
iv) Existing Su30 MKI are only 12 squadrons, 13th will be raised this year or next... 14th may also be raised in future... However, fixed it as 13 squadrons to avoid complicating the sheet even more...
v) MMRCA 1.0 took 5 years from RFP in 2007 to declaring Rafale as winner in 2012... Further, commercial negotiations remained inconclusive... Considering the same timeline for MRFA, assuming RFP to be issued in 2022, Contract signing will be 2028...
vi) Rate of production of future jets is purely my assumption, which I felt is reasonable...
-
2) Without MRFA, 2 Sqdns Additional Rafale, 4 Sqdns ORCA:-
Image
The 3rd squadron of MRFA and 1st squadron of ORCA will be ready more or less at the sametime...
In ORCA, IAF will get the perfect Desi alternative to the expensive Rafale... So, if MRFA is cancelled and IAF goes for 2 Additional Rafale squadrons and 4 Squadrons of ORCA, the squadron numbers and overall composition will remain same... Also, ORCA can play the role of cheaper mud-mover to AMCA... It can also be used to replace earlier squadrons of Su30s... Additional numbers can be immediately ordered as and when required...
The only downside is that IAF will get an additional type of jet in its fleet... But then, if MRFA deal goes to someone other than Rafale, it will be even worse...
-
3) Without MRFA, 2 Sqdns Additional Rafale, 4 Additional Sqdns of Tejas Mk2:-
Image
If IAF don't want a new type of Jet, they can simply order Additional Tejas Mk2 apart from 2 additional squadrons of Rafale... After all, Tejas Mk2 is same class as Gripen E/F and F16, two of the contendors of MRFA... If the production rate of Tejas Mk2 is increased from 24 to 32, the timeline will also match the MRFA/ORCA dates:-
Image
----
I hope these tables will give a realistic idea of things as they stand...
My opinions and conclusions based on these tables is as follows:-
1) IAF strength will continue to remain between 31 to 35 for this entire decade. Tejas Mk2 is most crucial to shore up IAF numbers. Once Tejas Mk2 is productionized, the numbers will start going up and continue to increase in next decade to the sanctioned 42 squadrons.
However, I don't think Tejas Mk2 will see a production rate of 32 per year... 24 jets per year would be ideal for the considered timeline and speculated orders... IAF may even restrict it to 16 per year depending on orders & budget...
2) The only reason IAF need MRFA is if they are looking for any specific technologies. Otherwise, they should order 2-3 squadrons of Rafales and order ORCA/ additional Tejas Mk2 to fill up numbers... If creating a new assembly line in private sector is the only aim, they can consider creating one with one of the domestic programs rather than going for an imported new jet...
3) I haven't included CATS and other UAVs in these calculations as the numbers are neither firmed up nor speculated anywhere. But I feel these systems will also play a major role in future.
4) IAF and MOD should start planning for replacement of Su30s after 5-6 years. That will give them full 20 years to plan and replace Su30s, which are due for retirement starting 2045. Replacement may include any one or combinations of the following:-
a) Cleansheet 6th Gen aircraft, probably 30+Tonne Heavy Class jet.
b) 4.5 Gen (probably ORCA)
c) Additional AMCA
d) full-fledged CATS or UAV squadrons

Kakarat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2151
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 13:59

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Kakarat » 23 Feb 2021 12:38

https://twitter.com/Suryakiran_IAF/stat ... 9181275140
The Flyby continue into Tamil Nadu tomorrow.
Tag @suryakiran_iaf
and post your pictures. Best photos get a personalised hamper from the team.

Note: Timings subject to change in case of enroute weather.
#tamilnadu #Pondicherry

Image

Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2523
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Manish_P » 23 Feb 2021 13:26

LakshmanPST wrote:Hope this post is not considered as spam... :)
Having seen lot of discussions regarding projected Squadron Strength of Indian Air Force, I thought it will be good to tabulate the projections... However, as I started writing them down, it became obvious that the variables are just too many...
So, after much thinking, I prepared a simple Excel Sheet... The format I prepared is as follows:-


Awesome effort, sir. Request you to maintain (update, fine tune) this data sheet for future reference.

Anshuman.Kumar
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 54
Joined: 08 Sep 2016 20:16

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Anshuman.Kumar » 23 Feb 2021 14:52

The way squadrons are calculated is very odd..different planes and different numbers i suppose.
272 MkI would be making up mere 13 squadrons..at 21 fighters per squadron..
36 Rafales make up 2 squadrons at 18 per squadron.

Tejas again counted as 20 per squadron ..Jags and Mig21s differently

Some Uniformity is called for ..16+2 for all types

Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2762
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Prem Kumar » 23 Feb 2021 15:21

Great effort, LakshmanPST! Please keep it updated and it will be very useful

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4814
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 23 Feb 2021 15:35

Now please update with the price tag for each of the option. That will provide a more realistic picture of what can be afforded.

chetonzz
BRFite
Posts: 107
Joined: 18 Mar 2019 11:11

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetonzz » 23 Feb 2021 16:28

*please reply me*

all non Bison Mig-21 s are phased out "as of today"?

if yes why no ceremony? COVID?

LakshmanPST
BRFite
Posts: 347
Joined: 05 Apr 2019 18:23

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby LakshmanPST » 23 Feb 2021 16:42

Anshuman.Kumar wrote:The way squadrons are calculated is very odd..different planes and different numbers i suppose.
272 MkI would be making up mere 13 squadrons..at 21 fighters per squadron..
36 Rafales make up 2 squadrons at 18 per squadron.

Tejas again counted as 20 per squadron ..Jags and Mig21s differently

Some Uniformity is called for ..16+2 for all types


16+2 is standard squadron composition... But more than 18 are generally ordered for attrition reserves, TACDE, availability, turn-around time etc.... The final squadron composition is decided by IAF taking all these factors into consideration...
Many ppl count the number of planes and simply divide it by 18, which is a wrong approach...

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 55203
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 24 Feb 2021 05:52

Thanks Lakshman. The table meets the requirement that I wanted.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 55203
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 24 Feb 2021 05:53

Very interesting IAF quest for DPSA and the meandering path it took. Doesn't include Su-30MKI or Rafale.
And note how it gets jerked by political, supplier, geo-politics.

And IAF creates ASR based on available planes.

So how to fault them for Tejas!

https://airpowerasia.com/2021/02/19/the ... nthusiast/

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 55203
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 24 Feb 2021 05:56

Indranil, KaranM,
Can the Tejas Mk1 be upgraded to Mk1A standards eventually?

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4814
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 24 Feb 2021 06:57

Rakesh wrote:The MiG 29 ‘Baaz’ Story By A Young Defence Enthusiast
https://airpowerasia.com/2021/02/19/the ... nthusiast/
By Shwetabh Singh Rajput

1979 - Jaguar
1980-82 - MiG-23/27
1982 - Mirage-2000
1986 - MiG-29

Hindsight 20/20: if the GoI and IAF had focused on Mirage-2000 with license production (on offer) along with MiG-29 with license production (on offer), there would have been enough money to standardize the fleet with many more quantities of the two.

Having said that, the multi-role technology back then wasn’t mature like we see today. It was more of specialized aircraft for either strike or air defense.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 10633
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rakesh » 24 Feb 2021 07:03

ramana wrote:Indranil, KaranM,
Can the Tejas Mk1 be upgraded to Mk1A standards eventually?

Not IR or KaranM, but as per HAL Chief...yes.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4814
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srai » 24 Feb 2021 07:23

^^^
Typically, some differences will remain given the build specs may have altered ever so slightly between the variants.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 55203
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 24 Feb 2021 20:34

Sometime before the 83 Mk1A are completed and the Mk2 gets started it would be prudent to get the Mk1 upgrade going.
Radar, avionics, Astra etc.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19874
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 25 Feb 2021 03:42

ramana wrote:Indranil, KaranM,
Can the Tejas Mk1 be upgraded to Mk1A standards eventually?


Some avionics, yes. But there are structural differences that can't be retrofitted. MK1A is designed with production engineering improvements for easy serviceability. In terms of what matters to us, common radar, EW, armament, fuel tanks etc can be retrofitted.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 55203
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 25 Feb 2021 04:03

Great. Need IAF to plan for that upgrade to get more flexibility.

deejay
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4010
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby deejay » 25 Feb 2021 10:00

ramana wrote:Great. Need IAF to plan for that upgrade to get more flexibility.


Plans already in place. Upgrades will happen over time. Present priority is getting and operationalising fighters as they become available. There is a lot of learning happening.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Lisa, ravikr and 44 guests