INS Vikrant: News and Discussion

[Pratyush]

I have been thinking about the second ship in the class and how to get one on the cheap and on time for some time.

I think that adding a section in front of the island of 30 meters in length and one lift on the starboard side at the aft end of the ship can easily give us a 50k ton ship. Though the lifts will require a redesign.

This location of the plug should be seperate from engineering spaces of the vessel. So no major modifications are required to the engeneering spaces. Saving time and complexity. Increase in length should also make the hull form more hydrodynamic. Thereby increasing the propulsion efficiency. Reducing the requirement to augment engeneering plant.
Which further reduces costs and complexity of the ship.

A ship with additional 30 meters length hanger will have additional 19979.26, sq feet of hanger space. Assuming hanger width is 203 feet. This should be enough space for storing and servicing 8 additional MiG 29k. Or similar sized aircrafts.

This ship due to its ability to have longer take of lengths for jets will allow the aircrafts to operate with higher payload.

This should be the path taken by the navy .
Such a ship if authorised today and construction initiated by next year can be in service by 2028. Additional length will not contain any propulsion space. It can be designed to house additional fuel tanks and ammunition storage facilities. The amount of re-design work will be modest on this ship.

It will result in a carier with the same capacity as the first PRC indigenous ship.

While providing the IN with the space and time required to chase a full size carier by 2035.

[arvin]

Regarding em cat's.

Personally, I see them as just linier motors. Consequently I don't quite understand the need to have some super capacitors in order to utilise the catapult.

A GT can power a linear motor catapult as well.

To me the biggest challenge would be solving what to do with the power being produced by the GT when the aircraft is not being launched.

Storing that power is the only role the super capacitors are playing in the whole process for me.

If you can take away the need to store all that power. I think that you can also remove the need to have super capacitors on the ship.

Then what about maintainence?
Moving components in a Capacitor vs Gas turbine.
Programmable for size of aircraft vs One large size fits all.

[chetak]

Regarding em cat's.

Personally, I see them as just linier motors. Consequently I don't quite understand the need to have some super capacitors in order to utilise the catapult.

A GT can power a linear motor catapult as well.

To me the biggest challenge would be solving what to do with the power being produced by the GT when the aircraft is not being launched.

Storing that power is the only role the super capacitors are playing in the whole process for me.

If you can take away the need to store all that power. I think that you can also remove the need to have super capacitors on the ship.

The power needed by the CAT is cyclical and that to operating in almost peak loading mode. The rest of the time it is idling with a massive no load fuel consumption. It needs a completely backed up system in order to cater for battle damage/redundancies. To combine the CAT power with the prime mover is asking for trouble risk wise as it enormously expands the risk universe itself. A fire will take out both systems (CAT + prime) and probably leave you only with the standby system, automatically doubling the risk and leaving the carrier vulnerable by affecting motive as well as CAT operations.

That will slow down the escorts as well, making them also much more vulnerable to attack.

The ships prime movers just cannot cater to this additional requirement because the prime movers are also being used to provide motive power to maintain the WOD component essential to the launch itself

Nuke power caters to all these needs but to get the same bang for the EMALS buck from conventional power is a huge ask

Everything from the generators onwards are of special design adapted to this cyclical mode of operation.

Diesels will not cope for long without intensive maintenance support. Even now carbon build up affects injectors and and exhaust systems become problematic as well. Best to keep these diesels running at steady speeds with a lot of TLC included.

Carriers are generally steam propelled with may be an additional set(s) of GTs to cater for burst power requirements or even cruising in eco mode

This is way beyond the conventional power generation systems and who is going to make a few pieces of such special equipment and be capable and willing to provide spares, maintenance and upgrade support over a 30-40 odd years (give or take) life cycle.

Just playing the devil's advocate to explore options is all.

Just saying onlee, we have the ball park capacity to make submarine reactors but we need the russkis to help see us through the carrier variant and for that we need putin's goodwill.

The amerikis have foreseen all of this, hence the threat of sanctions and their desperate need to wean us away from putin's embrace. The cheeni have also got the same idea and they have chosen to embrace putin a lot tighter to prevent any tilt towards India. Putin is interested in mother russia and he will play off everyone against their mothers in law to get what he needs to make russia great again.

A CAT (steam or EMALS) in a joint development project with the russkis will benefit both countries but that will take a lot of tightrope walking to calm putin into cooperating. They have the design and building capacities and we have the operating expertise which the russkis lack.

I do not have sufficient inputs yet to try and figure out what exactly ukraine may bring to the mix and what caveats they will impose, maybe some guru can fill in his thoughts.

Need a lot more inputs to game this reasonably well.

[chetak]

Regarding em cat's.

Personally, I see them as just linier motors. Consequently I don't quite understand the need to have some super capacitors in order to utilise the catapult.

A GT can power a linear motor catapult as well.

To me the biggest challenge would be solving what to do with the power being produced by the GT when the aircraft is not being launched.

Storing that power is the only role the super capacitors are playing in the whole process for me.

If you can take away the need to store all that power. I think that you can also remove the need to have super capacitors on the ship.

Then what about maintainence?
Moving components in a Capacitor vs Gas turbine.
Programmable for size of aircraft vs One large size fits all.

Marine GTs are beasts of burden, easy to run, easy to maintain, quite unlike the skittish race horses that the highly temperamental aviation GTs are.

[hgupta]

By the mid 2030's it would have been 30+ years since the last steam catapult was delivered to an AC. Its really a technology dead end (most upgrades now are around sustainment, making it more reliable etc) so I highly doubt the IN would consider steam as a viable option if it decides to go for a CATOBAR unless it developes one in house.

I do not think we have seen the end of the steam catapult. Look at this website for the status of the EMALs: https://theaviationgeekclub.com/uss-for ... ster-says/

It failed after 181 launches and had a similar failure rate in its second round of testing. Grapevine at US Navy says that they re pretty much fed up with EMALs and thinking that EMALs are a dead end like a bridge too far. They are seriously considering switching back to advanced steam catapults to save costs and to ensure readiness rate. It makes sense because they have two carriers coming up and they cannot avoid to have three carriers being next to useless if their catapults don't work. They cannot afford to take risks with their readiness rate.

[chetak]

By the mid 2030's it would have been 30+ years since the last steam catapult was delivered to an AC. Its really a technology dead end (most upgrades now are around sustainment, making it more reliable etc) so I highly doubt the IN would consider steam as a viable option if it decides to go for a CATOBAR unless it developes one in house.

I do not think we have seen the end of the steam catapult. Look at this website for the status of the EMALs: https://theaviationgeekclub.com/uss-for ... ster-says/

It failed after 181 launches and had a similar failure rate in its second round of testing. Grapevine at US Navy says that they re pretty much fed up with EMALs and thinking that EMALs are a dead end like a bridge too far. They are seriously considering switching back to advanced steam catapults to save costs and to ensure readiness rate. It makes sense because they have two carriers coming up and they cannot avoid to have three carriers being next to useless if their catapults don't work. They cannot afford to take risks with their readiness rate.

I agree with you.

EMALS appears beyond our reach at the moment.

Currently, EMALS is like the pfizer "miracle" vaccine: needlessly hyped up, expensive, and known to be problematic. The EMALS supporters in the USN are like snake oil salesmen peddling pfizer, presently pushing their third "booster" dose, secure in the knowledge that other incremental numbers of the "booster" doses will also get sold to the wokes.

Steam seems the way to go. Tried, tested, also cheap and best (relatively speaking).

Bring in guys like L&T, Bharat forge and others and fund them. Keep govt servants completely out of it.

Get the russkis involved to light a fire under the ameriki deep state. I suspect that the russkis may be interested in the steam CAT as well as their fighters are heavy

[brar_w]

By the mid 2030's it would have been 30+ years since the last steam catapult was delivered to an AC. Its really a technology dead end (most upgrades now are around sustainment, making it more reliable etc) so I highly doubt the IN would consider steam as a viable option if it decides to go for a CATOBAR unless it developes one in house.

I do not think we have seen the end of the steam catapult. Look at this website for the status of the EMALs: https://theaviationgeekclub.com/uss-for ... ster-says/

It failed after 181 launches and had a similar failure rate in its second round of testing. Grapevine at US Navy says that they re pretty much fed up with EMALs and thinking that EMALs are a dead end like a bridge too far. They are seriously considering switching back to advanced steam catapults to save costs and to ensure readiness rate. It makes sense because they have two carriers coming up and they cannot avoid to have three carriers being next to useless if their catapults don't work. They cannot afford to take risks with their readiness rate.

Ignore that website. Use the search feature of this forum for more details on exactly how it has matured in testing as the first in class vessel goes through testing and completes its work required to begin operational deployment (i've highlighted on post of mine but there are others covering 2019 and 2020 activities). The last new steam CAT system was delivered circa 2001. That's twenty years ago. It would have been 30+ years by the time CVN-81 gets delivered. No one in their right mind are going back to the labor and time intensive steam based CAT system.

The current EMALS onboard CVN-78 (G R Ford) has done 8,100 launches out at sea with operational crews and is spooling up to its full capability ahead of the first operational cruise towards the end of 2022 to early 2023 timeframe. By the time CVN-78 departs it will be one of the most highly tested new launch systems ever put into a brand new CVN by the US Navy (well over 10K cycles in addition to the tens of thousand done on land based system). CVN-79 has EMALS. CVN-80 and 81 have EMALS. These CVN's are on order and will be delivered between now and 2032 (CVN-79 gets delivered in 2024, CVN-80 by end of the decade, and CVN-81 in early 2030s).

CVN-82 and 83 are not on order but they will be ordered in the next 3-4 years and will be delivered in the 2035-2040 timeframe depending on planned replacement cycles. Add France's PANG to the list. By 2040, assuming carriers are delivered on time, you are likely to have a MINIMUM of six EMALS and AAG powered aircraft carriers between US and France. Add China and it could be 8-9. If there's anyone telling you that the US (and by extension France) is considering advanced steam then that person is either lying or needs to check into a mental facility.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4752&p=2498181&hilit=EMALS#p2498181

Also, straight from the Captain's mouth - https://youtu.be/9zJU63tydUU

[chetak]

If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

How can anyone assume/forecast the turn of events, the global churn, the prevailing alliances and coalitions twenty - thirty years into the future. It does not require 20-30 years for friends to turn into foes or vice versa.

Things in India will turn on a dime if Modi departs in the next gen elections and the wokes take charge.

Major powers are waiting for just that to happen. The amerikis and the cheeni will move in, one way or the other, as the ground work has already been laid in the NE, AP, KER, TN, PUN and WB by sowing seeds of illegal migration or extraterritorial ideologies that have been slyly planted nurtured and are being readied.

and if it does, worst case, we are headed down the dark rabbit hole of rabid communism, separatism and guaranteed balkanization, initially in the body politic followed by the beginnings of territorial disintegration.

facebook, twitter, google other SM have already been weaponized and will form a major part of the woke armoury for next GE, whether we like it or not. These additions to the arsenal have already been tried and tested out in sophisticated societies in the UK and the US. Does anyone still doubt their efficacy.

Like someone said, it's cheaper for the chinese to buy the Indian opposition rather than risk body bags and Indian history is replete with many traitors who have joined forces with the attackers and opened the fortress doors in the dark of the night for the proverbial 30 pieces of silver

walmart and amazon are no less than any sophisticated weapon system ans these guys buy entire govts to do their bidding by changing laws and making them more favorable to their shady and monopolized operations

we just do not have the technology to develop the EMALS and neither is such technology ever going to be sold to us by anyone.

As for the ameriki QUAD, after stirring up the hornet's nest, if the cheeni were to react by making things too hot for the amerikis to handle, the same gutless amerikis will depart post haste, leaving India in the lurch, just like they did afghanistan, while wiping their privelieged white bottoms with (BECA), (LEMOA) and (COMCASA) even as they depart.

these buggers have a long and hallowed tradition of running: korea, vietnam, eyraq and now afghanistan, always leaving death and devastation in their wake.

The carriers are for us and not for any imagined grand coalition.

[Manish_P]

....
The current EMALS onboard CVN-78 (G R Ford) has done 8,100 launches out at sea with operational crews and is spooling up to its full capability ahead of the first operational cruise towards the end of 2022 to early 2023 timeframe. By the time CVN-78 departs it will be one of the most highly tested new launch systems ever put into a brand new CVN by the US Navy (well over 10K cycles in addition to the tens of thousand done on land based system)...

Exactly this. This is the gritty, non-glamorous stuff which mainstream media or popular mechanics types miss or just don't highlight as it doesn't get them the eyeballs a sensational line will, never mind if it is older news or partially true or plain untrue.

It is worse with our DDMs with the added element of our partial, import-pasand or simply non-domain expert journos. They will happily highlight all the limitations of the LCA, the Arjun but not the achievements of its underlying tech and the hard work and testing it's undergone to get there. They will keep mum on the potential rewards it will give, in the development of future more capable products..

I have close to zero knowledge of this tech but from what I could make out from the posts on these forums, it seems to be not as complex as turbofan or space tech. Let our teams start working on the basics, under licence or by poaching (unlike the Chinese we don't like to steal). The pace will pick up in the future and we will crack it one day.

Who knows the stars might align and our own Engine and our own Cat might come around the same time.. even a few years back did we think that we would win medals in Athletics or Gymnastics..

[brar_w]

It's not about just all that. It is about investing in a technology because you are committed to the platform to which it will contribute significantly in terms of meeting performance and sustainment requirements for the next half a century. It requires long term strategic planning and commitment. The US Navy would have likely skipped EMALS if the Ford Class was to be a one or two ship program. A 10-20 year technology development and maturation lead time is very hard to justify in terms of cost, manpower and test resource allocation if it is contributing to a very limited number of platforms. This is why the French never bothered to develop their own Steam CAT's, their own EMALS/AAG, or their own E-2 equivalent. Their defense industry is more than capable (and was at the time as well) to deliver each of these systems. The ROI is simply not there and the defense department would much prefer to invest in areas where there is a better ROI. It isn't "accountant speak" but real strategic investments that would have been traded. Things like downsizing the Rafale program, not modernizing the Army guns, or the MBT programs etc. There would have to be bill payers.

The USN does these investments because it is committed to maintaining 10 or more CVN's and the first four Ford class CVN's are on order with one on the verge of its first deployment (likely next year) and the other to be delivered in about 2.5 years. China likewise made a strategic investment because it too aspires to reach that level in the coming decades. Much of the Chinese naval expansion has been at the expense of modernization of its land forces for example. They've prioritized that aspect of their armed forces. So unless the IN is able to convince that a a multi year - multi-decade investment in launch technology is going to be vital because a lot more than one-off vessels will house it in the future, the MOD is unlikely to allocate huge investments required for technology development, maturation, land based test facilities, and for ship conversions. You can't blame them for this. The French have done the same. One or even 2 platforms make this sort of tech investment extremely cost prohibitive. The technology itself can take more years to develop and fully mature than what it would take to sanction, build, and launch IAC-2. So what do you do? Spend a decade or two in mastering this technology and then design a carrier around it (within its performance and limitations), or start building IAC-2 and finish it and delivery it within the same timeframe? One is an actual naval program to delivery a ship, with an air-wing within a finite schedule. The other is a technology development and maturation effort. If the IN wanted launch technology on its carriers it should have had such a program (for tech development) a decade ago so that it would be reasonably mature by the time IAC-1 was operational so that IAC-2 could be launched soon thereafter with this technology. Maybe they tried but other things were more important and were funded instead.

[kit]

we just do not have the technology to develop the EMALS and neither is such technology ever going to be sold to us by anyone.

As for the ameriki QUAD, after stirring up the hornet's nest, if the cheeni were to react by making things too hot for the amerikis to handle, the same gutless amerikis will depart post haste, leaving India in the lurch, just like they did afghanistan, while wiping their privelieged white bottoms with (BECA), (LEMOA) and (COMCASA) even as they depart.
The carriers are for us and not for any imagined grand coalition.

DRDO rail gun circa 2019. The basic blocks for EMALS is there in India.

[Suresh S]

Chetak we are not ever going back to the horrible past of post 1947. First today,s India has changed. Hindus have become aware of their glorious past. Desh bhakti is in the air.

Second SM including facebook, twitter, U tube are not ICBM that we can not shoot these down. These SM can be banned and will be banned if they interfere in our affairs so as to cause a regime change.

Thirdly Indian army of today is also changed. Army ne churiya nahin pahani ha bhai you are from a vir chakra family. In the worse case scenario if BIF try to take over, say yes to Indian army takeover of Bharat.

[chetak]

we just do not have the technology to develop the EMALS and neither is such technology ever going to be sold to us by anyone.

As for the ameriki QUAD, after stirring up the hornet's nest, if the cheeni were to react by making things too hot for the amerikis to handle, the same gutless amerikis will depart post haste, leaving India in the lurch, just like they did afghanistan, while wiping their privelieged white bottoms with (BECA), (LEMOA) and (COMCASA) even as they depart.
The carriers are for us and not for any imagined grand coalition.

DRDO rail gun circa 2019. The basic blocks for EMALS is there in India.

a college project of mine was a linear motor. It was fairly crude and I built it after hand stamping the parts and it worked decently enough.

It simply does not follow that given enough money one can and will build a jugghi jhopdi type of EMALS.

Back in the day, Saddam had a rail gun that he had, on the sly, commissioned a retired britshit to build for him I am not sure but I seem to remember that some western intelligence agency took out the britshit guy. That rail gun reportedly had a range in excess of 20 kms and it was just a prototype.

there is a lot of difference in building the EMALS to launch a really heavy, weapons loaded, multimillion-dollar fighter with a crew and making a motivational speech to rally the mango men.

If India made an EMALS today, no one would be happier than I but is it going to happen, one very seriously doubts it.

Cost and raw talent are the weakest links, and it is the same for the mil GT, compact nuke reactor, and a truly indigenous submarine rather than just building to some foreign bought plan and assembling from kits. No talent has led to no funds, and the opposite is not true in our case.

There are some really smart financial types overseeing the flow of money who, on a bad day, can routinely think 10-15 steps ahead of any designer in the room. The money doesn't flow because the genuine questions of these financial controllers are rarely answered. A lot of the initial funding was on faith but after repeated nonappearance of the promised parts, subassembly, subsystem or the system itself, faith gives way to on the ground reality

initial euphoria soon dies down and the long hard bumpy road starts to get tougher to negotiate by the day. The mirage of an inspired breakthrough around every corner starts to recede. Very few breakthroughs happen by chance.

[brar_w]

On EMALS, the US Navy funded component development and risk-reduction in the 90's, funded a full scale EMALS demonstrator (land based) after that was accomplished, only in the early-mid 2000's. It wasn't till late 2020 that an installed EMALS begun high ops tempo tactical operations on the first in class Ford class carrier (prior to that it was in test phase whereas post late 2020 they shifted to operationally focused tactical employment such as CQ). Operationally, it will be deployed late 2022. Total time from component demonstrations to operational deployment = 2.5+ decades. Basic technology development required to get to component demonstrations goes even further back.

[ldev]

As for the ameriki QUAD, after stirring up the hornet's nest, if the cheeni were to react by making things too hot for the amerikis to handle, the same gutless amerikis will depart post haste, leaving India in the lurch, just like they did afghanistan, while wiping their privelieged white bottoms with (BECA), (LEMOA) and (COMCASA) even as they depart.

these buggers have a long and hallowed tradition of running: korea, vietnam, eyraq and now afghanistan, always leaving death and devastation in their wake.

The carriers are for us and not for any imagined grand coalition.

I think the US deep state, shallow state!! and all other US states recognize that if the US does not fight a Chinese invasion of Taiwan, they may as well kiss goodbye to the US empire and the status of the US dollar as the reserve currency. Because unlike Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan there will be no vaccum left over. The space vacated by the US will be filled up by China. So I don't think that the US is going to cut and run from China.

As far as Quad is concerned I think a lot more is happening unheralded and un-announced. Given below is a recent interview with Former Assistant Secretary of Defense Randy Schriver in the Trump administration by Jeff Smith of the Heritage Foundation. All of it is interesting but specially watch 24:20 to 25:40.

"If you want to find a Chinese submarine the best way is to never lose it. You want someone to have contact on it as it leaves port all the way through the Malacca Strait into the Indian Ocean. That screams Quad cooperation. In practice we have actually done it on an ad-hoc basis".

This is the actual cooperation that is already being done by the Quad countries i.e. tracking Chinese submarines including ballistic missile submarines from the time that they leave their base in Hainan. It is one of the reasons that the Chinese are building those 100 + silos for their land based missiles because they have probably realized that their SLBM force is vulnerable to tracking.



The Russians are never going to help India track Chinese submarines that are on the way into the Indian Ocean. And as far as getting Russian help with a nuclear reactor for an aircraft carrier, I think that will be a blunder 10X the size of Admiral Gorkshkov.

Fielding an aircraft carrier to bottle the PN in Karachi harbor is one thing. Projecting power into the South China sea requires something else. Not that it cannot be done. After all the Royal Navy used HMS Hermes i.e. INS Viraat, in the Falklands Conflict 13,000 km away from the UK. The question is what exactly does the Indian navy want to do with it's carriers. What is the doctrine? Specially to deal with the PLAAN. And are aircraft carriers a necessity for that? And if so is it also necessary to go beyond the 40,000-50,000 ton size of the Vikrant. The Royal Navy decided early on that it did not want a CATOBAR carrier very simply because the ongoing expenses in keeping an air wing qualified for carrier landings was not cost effective when you have 1 carrier deployed of maybe 2 that are available. And so they decided in the early 2000s that the QE2 would be a STOVL carrier with an air wing of F-35Bs i.e. the thinking was that if the benefits of a CATOBAR take -off which is a normal payload takeoff was not available, then why should you have to deal with the downside of a CATOBAR which is qualifying pilots for the landing. I understand that the entire air wing of the Charles De Gaulle has to be re-qualifed after every time the ship is in dry dock. The US is in a completely different situation with 11 carriers so costs are spread over.

[KSingh]

Just to clarify- the RN wanted CATOBAR all along, pencil pushers.

In Westminster got in the way of this then there was the hilariously British U turn around 2010 when the David Cameron govt decided whilst the QE class were already under construction and F-35Bs on order that they would be CATOBAR after all. This lasted all of a few months as they explained to the PM that the cost of converting to CATOBAR now would be hugely cost prohibitive and the commitment for the Bs could not just be revoked as the RN was a major funding partner of that derivative.

And the utility of medium carriers (40-50K tons) is basically zilch- they are entirely white elephants. Either you want a full size carrier capable of doing the job of carriers- that is amassing large aerial formations at remote corners of the world- or you want a missile boat. These medium sized carriers are half a dozen of one, 6 of the other. They don’t do anything well and are thus just big targets with limited utility. I understand that IAC-1 was originally designated an air defence carrier ie only meant to provide air defence for a fleet but as this role emerged into a more typical aircraft carrier and she grew from 28,000 to 40,000+ tons she has grown into a headache for the IN long term also.

Eventually the IN simply will have to become a carrier navy purely because this is explicitly what the Chinese are doing (successfully) and India’s presence in the SCS is effectively nil, carriers can change this. Carriers present almost no benefit to India against Pak and in the IOR where they have significant presence thanks to land bases and as we can see this is only expanding (Mauritian islands, A&N and the Seychelles)

However this is going to require a HUGE and dramatic mindset change for India- one that simply has not occurred as of yet. India will need upwards of 5 (large) carriers and a continuous production line of carriers.

2 medium sized STOBAR carriers with a measly 2 squadrons of fighter jets will be assessed as a paper tiger force and it’s hard to argue against this. But they will play a role in creating the expertise to man and deploy multiple carriers- something India has almost none of. Hopefully the IN thoroughly hammers both carriers and goes for a high tempo deployment pattern to really put their manpower, logistics and equipment under stress and thereby grow.

The next 2-3 decades will be about using the IOR as a training ground for Indian fleets/CBGs before they can be trusted to be let free in the SCS.

[ldev]

Just to clarify- the RN wanted CATOBAR all along, pencil pushers.

In Westminster got in the way of this then there was the hilariously British U turn around 2010 when the David Cameron govt decided whilst the QE class were already under construction and F-35Bs on order that they would be CATOBAR after all. This lasted all of a few months as they explained to the PM that the cost of converting to CATOBAR now would be hugely cost prohibitive and the commitment for the Bs could not just be revoked as the RN was a major funding partner of that derivative. .

Lol!! I did not realize that the original early 2000s decision to go for STOVL was a Westminster decision. I thought the RN wanted the STOVL and not that they were being pushed in that direction by the pencil pushers at Westminster. And yes I am aware of the short term 180 degree turnaround to try and go back to CATOBAR which then became cost prohibitive and was aborted.

And the utility of medium carriers (40-50K tons) is basically zilch- they are entirely white elephants. Either you want a full size carrier capable of doing the job of carriers- that is amassing large aerial formations at remote corners of the world- or you want a missile boat. These medium sized carriers are half a dozen of one, 6 of the other. They don’t do anything well and are thus just big targets with limited utility. I understand that IAC-1 was originally designated an air defence carrier ie only meant to provide air defence for a fleet but as this role emerged into a more typical aircraft carrier and she grew from 28,000 to 40,000+ tons she has grown into a headache for the IN long term also.

I agree that the Vikrant with the present complement is really an air defence ship and that is why I inferred that it has limited utility beyond bottling the PN in Karachi harbor.

Eventually the IN simply will have to become a carrier navy purely because this is explicitly what the Chinese are doing (successfully) and India’s presence in the SCS is effectively nil, carriers can change this. Carriers present almost no benefit to India against Pak and in the IOR where they have significant presence thanks to land bases and as we can see this is only expanding (Mauritian islands, A&N and the Seychelles)

The present vision of the IN appears to be that it's area of responsibility is from the Persian Gulf to the Malacca Straits. This does not need anything more than the 40,000-50,000 ton displacement AC because as you have said there are numerous island bases from where primary land based air forces can be deployed in this area.

However this is going to require a HUGE and dramatic mindset change for India- one that simply has not occurred as of yet. India will need upwards of 5 (large) carriers and a continuous production line of carriers.

2 medium sized STOBAR carriers with a measly 2 squadrons of fighter jets will be assessed as a paper tiger force and it’s hard to argue against this. But they will play a role in creating the expertise to man and deploy multiple carriers- something India has almost none of. Hopefully the IN thoroughly hammers both carriers and goes for a high tempo deployment pattern to really put their manpower, logistics and equipment under stress and thereby grow.

The next 2-3 decades will be about using the IOR as a training ground for Indian fleets/CBGs before they can be trusted to be let free in the SCS.

The growth in the number and size of carriers will be a function of the growth of the Indian economy. Right now the economy is far too small to support multiple 80,000-90,000 ton carriers. China did not get ambitious with regards to aircraft carriers until now i.e. when their economy is pushing 15 trillion dollars. And this not on a PPP basis.

[KSingh]

...

The growth in the number and size of carriers will be a function of the growth of the Indian economy. Right now the economy is far too small to support multiple 80,000-90,000 ton carriers. China did not get ambitious with regards to aircraft carriers until now i.e. when their economy is pushing 15 trillion dollars. And this not on a PPP basis.[/quote]

This is what I take objection too. Currently India is currently a $3Tn economy, it will be a $5Tn within 5 years and $10Tn 5-7 years after that. From now and till then india will have added precisely 0 carriers to accompany the expanded economic power (and thereby threats), there’s even a threat that there won’t even be any carriers under construction either.

I think India is desperately in need of a white paper defence and strategic review. Their current plans are based on ideas dreamt up 40+ years ago, no one could’ve predicted the emergence of China but also fall of the US- which I believe India had tacitly hoped would do the lion’s share of the heavy lifting in continuing emerging threats in the IOR.

The 2020s seem like a deeply troubling time for India as strategic shifts occur and India has failed to invest 1-2 decades ago to be in a position to respond accordingly.

[ldev]

My observation is that of the 3 services, the Indian Navy is the most far sighted, case in point being the succession of Russian nuclear submarines leased to train and keep current the skill levels in the Indian Navy to operate nuclear submarines for a time when India built it's own nuclear submarines. That practice has paid dividends in the ongoing commissioning of the Indian SSBN fleet. And therefore I do concede that the Indian Navy's current efforts to get IAC-2 at a displacement of ~65,000 tons with all the bells and whistles possible i.e. nuclear powered propulsion, EMALs powered catapults are very similar in that the IN seeks to develop a skill set to operate large carriers for a time in the future when India will have the financial wherewithal to afford 5-6 carriers in the 80,000-90,000 ton range.

For the present the IN in cooperation with the USN is able to track and monitor PLAAN activity in the Indian Ocean closely. But Chinese industrial capacity is growing so rapidly that I envisage a future when it will become difficult to keep track of Chinese naval activity. PLAAN build up right now is so fast that it is almost as if they are planning for a future conflict where they have to take extremely large losses and yet have enough tonnage left floating to win the war i.e a war of attrition that they want to win. Quite opposite to how the USN operates. That is where India needs a White Paper on defence and strategic review.

[chetak]

Where's the money coming in from to do what you think that we need to do.

our priorities are still PDS and jhan dhan transfers, whatever

what's left after all that unavoidable social spending and what about the rest of the requirements nationwide that are only on the rise almost every day.

It is still going to remain the 1.7% tax base, give or take...

If Modi is not around, would the commies, congis, mumtaz begum or even mayavati do anything about more carriers or weapons or appreciate the cheeni expansionism and try to counter it

wouldn't they welcome the CPEC push into India, become paki and cheeni pasand for the sake of their vote banks or walk an independent course like Modi has been doing.

[ldev]

Where's the money coming in from to do what you think that we need to do.

our priorities are still PDS and jhan dhan transfers, whatever

what's left after all that unavoidable social spending and what about the rest of the requirements nationwide that are only on the rise almost every day.

It is still going to remain the 1.7% tax base, give or take...

If Modi is not around, would the commies, congis, mumtaz begum or even mayavati do anything about more carriers or weapons or appreciate the cheeni expansionism and try to counter it

Lol!! Down to earth with a thud!!

But seriously I think that is where there has to be a total review of the defence posture e.g. how can the existing pie be re-distributed among the 3 services. Does India need ground forces of 1 million plus when realistically you are never going to occupy and hold large tracts of another country? Does a ground based defensive posture on the LAC require as many soldiers as currently deployed? How can revenue expenditure be reduced so that more is available for capital equipment purchases which are required more for the Air Force and Navy. After the last review of the Chinese armed forces, the force re-organization has resulted in the PLAAF and PLAAN for the first time having more personnel than the PLAAGF. Does India need to do a similar exercise? Does the size of the IA need to be reduced and expand the IN and IAF?

[ldev]

Interesting video posted by our own Shiv on his Youtube channel on the width of the lift in the Vikrant. According to Shiv's measurements via pixel count of satellite images the lift doors are 10 meters wide and will therefore accommodate the following carrier aircraft:

Naval LCA
Proposed Twin Engined Deck Based Fighter - folded wings
Mig 29K - folded wings
FA-18 E/F - folded wings
SU-33 - folded wings
F-35C - folded wings

But the lift is narrower than the Rafale M which does not have a capability to fold it's wings.

[Manish_P]

There was also an interesting exchange on Twitter just a couple of days ago, between Maolankar sir and HVT sir about the lifts and the thinking behind them.

Can some one post the exchange here...

Edit - here it is (apologies for the large image size)

[ldev]

The twitter exchange highlights that the Vikrant lift size was not "future proofed" for the Rafale M. But then Maolankar is also essentially saying that even if the lift was super sized to accommodate the Rafale, the fact that it does not have foldable wings "reduces the capacity of the hangar/flight deck and overall operational efficiency of the ship".

[Thakur_B]

DRDO rail gun circa 2019. The basic blocks for EMALS is there in India.

.

Back in the day, Saddam had a rail gun that he had, on the sly, commissioned a retired britshit to build for him I am not sure but I seem to remember that some western intelligence agency took out the britshit guy. That rail gun reportedly had a range in excess of 20 kms and it was just a prototype.

That wasn't a British guy, that was Canadian / South African Gerald Bull. It wasn't a rail gun but a massive cannon that could theoretically launch small satellites. He was taken out by Israel.

[Manish_P]

The twitter exchange highlights that the Vikrant lift size was not "future proofed" for the Rafale M. But then Maolankar is also essentially saying that even if the lift was super sized to accommodate the Rafale, the fact that it does not have foldable wings "reduces the capacity of the hangar/flight deck and overall operational efficiency of the ship".

Thank you for summarizing it very succinctly!

(Can you guide on how to resize images in the post editor here?)

[ramana]

Where is Philip?

[Manish_P]

Haven't seen Philip sir for a long time. Had especially expected to see his posts at the time of MAKs 2021 show. Hope all is OK.

[srin]

While indigenious EMALS will be unobtainium for next 2 decades, it'd be criminal to not start working on it. It may not be for IAC-2 (whatever be the form factor of the IAC-2 or whether there will even be an IAC-2), but mastering the technology and having it usable is essential.

It is like the AIP for submarines. The only way to "get it" is to start developing it ourselves regardless of how long it takes.

So DRDO needs to start working on it ASAP with full support of the Navy

[Manish_P]

.

Back in the day, Saddam had a rail gun that he had, on the sly, commissioned a retired britshit to build for him I am not sure but I seem to remember that some western intelligence agency took out the britshit guy. That rail gun reportedly had a range in excess of 20 kms and it was just a prototype.

That wasn't a British guy, that was Canadian / South African Gerald Bull. It wasn't a rail gun but a massive cannon that could theoretically launch small satellites. He was taken out by Israel.

<OT>Thakur sa'ab, there were 'rumors' of a separate rail gun project, in addition to the Babylon project.
</OT>

[Manish_P]

While indigenious EMALS will be unobtainium for next 2 decades, it'd be criminal to not start working on it. It may not be for IAC-2 (whatever be the form factor of the IAC-2 or whether there will even be an IAC-2), but mastering the technology and having it usable is essential.

It is like the AIP for submarines. The only way to "get it" is to start developing it ourselves regardless of how long it takes.

So DRDO needs to start working on it ASAP with full support of the Navy

+1 But as Brar_w has pointed out, it needs massive research funding... so it's basically the GoI / MoD which needs to do the strategic planning and allocate for the resources and long term funding.

[Haridas]

...

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[Haridas]

And this is most exciting, see the peak power, temp range, internal resistance

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/det ... 0/13180992

SCCY1AB857S3PBL
AVX Corporation
SUPERCAP CYLINDRICAL
850 F (EDLC) Supercapacitor 2.7 V
Radial, Can - 3 Lead
1mOhm @ 1kHz
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Power density 21 kW/kg ( 21MegaWatt/tonne)

[chetak]

While indigenious EMALS will be unobtainium for next 2 decades, it'd be criminal to not start working on it. It may not be for IAC-2 (whatever be the form factor of the IAC-2 or whether there will even be an IAC-2), but mastering the technology and having it usable is essential.

It is like the AIP for submarines. The only way to "get it" is to start developing it ourselves regardless of how long it takes.

So DRDO needs to start working on it ASAP with full support of the Navy

+1 But as Brar_w has pointed out, it needs massive research funding... so it's basically the GoI / MoD which needs to do the strategic planning and allocate for the resources and long term funding.

As long as the requirements for the social sector spending dominates and dictates the priorities of the govt, "massive research funding" will continue to be a problem.

expecting first world research (which is what is needed) with third world resources and talent (which is what we have) is the proverbial pie in the sky. Our guys need to adapt innovatively.

Today, the GoI needs to know the size of the bang it can expect for its buck, especially after decades and decades being taken for a ride by snake oil salesmen of the "only buck, no bang" brigade.

we are not a "white paper" country. we are, however, a "how do I benefit personally" country and that is something that the goras understand best of all and know how to exploit the system.

have we forgotten one mofo from a caste ridden party who waltzed in as temporary defence minister, pocketed 50 odd crores for an imported fighter deal and ever so nimbly, waltzed out again. he still continues to be a doyen of the political system and a darling of the presstitute media

Rafale has become an internationally coordinated and BIF funded take down project to target Modi and effect a regime change because even though he is doing very well for India, the big business, big data scum are not happy because what they want and what India actually needs are two very different things.

The drivers of the trash Modi campaign are easy to track and the involvement of big business, big data scum who thought that they would luxuriously ride into India on the secure coattails of the US state dept and the ameriki MIC and change the local laws to suit themselves as they have done in many other "emerging" markets, is undoubted.

massive research funding for defence projects is just not going to happen.
Not when black swan events like the gift from wuhan has hit the economy and the only imperative is a massively increased social sector spending.

No one in the world has got a grip on or has covered the wuhan virus quite like Modi has and yet the internationally led disinformation campaign continues to run because Modi has done it with India developed, as well as, India produced vaccines.

biden mama and mylapore maami tried their best to derail Modi's efforts by disrupting the vaccine production supply chains

Diversion of huge moneys for "massive research funding for defence projects" will immediately resonate in accusations of war mongering, bribery, siphoning of money for electoral funding and the entire international woke cabal will descend on India, screaming like banshees and baying for Modi's blood, even more than what they are currently doing.

need to closely watch for the cheeni and their fragile ego which has taken a beating like never before. xi is very likely to precipitate some retaliatory action against India to teach us a lesson in servility and how to be respectful of the middle kingdom.

We, on the other hand, need to kick xi's butt once again with available resources.

A conspiracy is building, both within and without, to somehow destabilise the Modi govt. What was expected by the BIF was the unrestricted and uncontrolled access to the markets of India and a "grateful" India, falling over itself, in welcoming them. The most upset of the lot seems to be the EU.

hence the Modi hatao campaign. the amrekis, europe, cheenis and everyone else hope to benefit with a much weaker govt in power, preferably an unstable and rabid coalition of caste powered parties.

All parties (and the BIF) love coalition govts in India since it allows cooperative looting and buying.

[SRajesh]

Just a question then to Idevji
If the IN responsibility is from Aden to Malacca Straits and from Calcutta to Indira point or Narayan Sarovar to Maldives, should the vision be for more island based assets with AShM loaded long-legged Cheetahs and 3 40/40 K on circuit between fixed points in the Indian Ocean. Build more Khanderi's and Khanderi ka Gufa's on the islands??
If 2024 goes the other way or NaMo weakened then the whole thing (dream of 3 carriers 60K etc)will collapse like a pack of cards
https://youtu.be/Dp8MC8Y5pbE
Saw this video with 40 Rafale's carrying capapcity, will this suit for the Navy than a 60K variety!
Meanwhile the EMALS research can go on as well AIP

[Manish_P]

...
Diversion of huge moneys for "massive research funding for defence projects" will immediately resonate in accusations of war mongering, bribery, siphoning of money for electoral funding and the entire international woke cabal will descend on India, screaming like banshees and baying for Modi's blood, even more than what they are currently doing.

<OT>Chetak ji, agree with your POV and can understand your thinking. Now I don't follow much politics and this is the Mil thread so will just say in brief that, the woke cabal (likely co-opted by the BIF) seems likely to grow more shrill & aggressive in future (to counter our nation's rise). But we do know that earlier a more timid BJP government had the balls to conduct nuclear weapons tests under the asses of the Jihadis (and the very eyes, ears and noses of the big guys). The current PM has done carpet bombing and surgical strikes, both on the internal enemies and the external ones, in a cool, calculated way. He has shown himself to be the 'Bash on regardless' kind...

Smart strategist that he is, he can also do the good cop bad cop routine very well. He can slyly put forward a more assertive defence minister (or the CDS) as pushing him for a slightly larger percentage of the budget. Even half a percent increase each year can generate good numbers to use for research. Not many will sit down (or have the capability) to decode how much of the allotment went into capital purchases, how much into opex, how much into research, how much into chai-biskoot, how much into 'humanitarian causes' ..
</OT>

... xi is very likely to precipitate some retaliatory action against India to teach us a lesson in servility and how to be respectful of the middle kingdom. We, on the other hand, need to kick xi's butt once again with available resources....

<OT>
Exactly the reason the defence minister, the CDS/ the Chiefs can put forth as the reason for more immediate funds now. If not now, with a clear and imminent danger, then when?

Yes, I know Covid has hit us very hard economically but we will have still have to find a way to make it happen. The alternatives, both in politics & in policy, could well be too heavy a price for our nation to pay in the future.

There is no option.
</OT>

[KSingh]

The twitter exchange highlights that the Vikrant lift size was not "future proofed" for the Rafale M. But then Maolankar is also essentially saying that even if the lift was super sized to accommodate the Rafale, the fact that it does not have foldable wings "reduces the capacity of the hangar/flight deck and overall operational efficiency of the ship".

The counterpoint to this is the French carrier CDG- it is almost identical to the IAC-1 in dimensions and displacement but it can carry *30* Rafale-Ms even with fixed wings. Her lifts can transport 2x Rafales at any one time.


It’s a simple fact that the IN made a basic and fatal error by failing to future proof the IAC-1 and not thinking past the MIG-29K, then they gave the contract to the Russians to design the entire aviation complex for the IAC-1.


So failure to imagine or was there someone being ‘influenced’ by the Russians as this overtly benefits their MIC.


There were even talks of considering the E2D (now cleared for sale to India) operating from IN STOBAR carriers, absolutely no chance with the current lifts (moot now with the KA31 orders perhaps).


They dug themselves quite the hole and are now betting on the clean sheet design (TEDBF) to come along to save them but until then they are in for a LOT of pain as the 29K fleet is deeply troubled.


The IN is bragging about their design bureau creating the IAC-1 then they should own this mistake also

[Rakesh]

Dassault has proposed detachable wing tips to accommodate the Rafale M on the Vikrant. My personal opinion is that is not a good solution. While Boeing has demonstrated that their F-18 can fit on onboard the Vikramaditya and Vikrant, it remains to be seen how the MRCBF deal is going to go. They just got the sanction for the six P75I boats. TEDBF is under development. There are a host of other naval projects in the timeline. In the midst of all this, how and where the Navy is going to secure funds for 36 new naval fighters remains a mystery.

There is little utility in what the Navy Chief or any senior navy officer says. Not because they are not untrustworthy, but the MoD Babus have consistently undercut them. Navy Chief says there are no budgetary constraints to acquire 57 MRCBF fighters, but the MoD says no and the Navy is forced to reduce it to 36. Even that 36 is now in doubt. The Navy wants a 65K CATOBAR aircraft carrier and the MoD has always shot that proposal down. Classic bureaucracy at work here.

The only saving grace in this mess is the PLAN - they also have only two STOBAR carriers. Their only naval fighter is a big mess. And their CATOBAR aircraft carrier will take a long time to get fully operational. And the PLAN is still learning the intricacies of aircraft carrier doctrine. And the tremendous technological advantage that USN Carrier Groups have (which is what makes them nearly invincible) is just not there with the Chinese Navy. PLAN aircraft carriers (which are constantly tracked by the US) do not have the luxury of open sea either. They are bottlenecked - literally and figuratively. That is not to suggest that waltzing into the South China Sea will be easy, but the reverse is equally true for the PLAN if they come out into the open ocean.

[Rakesh]

Three Reasons LIAONING will not last an hour against USS RONALD REAGAN protecting Japan!

[Manish_P]

Dassault has proposed detachable wing tips to accommodate the Rafale M on the Vikrant. My personal opinion is that is not a good solution...

+1

Rakesh ji, have they asked (or are likely to demand) for a minimum number of units order towards offsetting the development (manufacturing, testing, certifying, maintenance & spares) costs?

I am wondering that if we are likely to be the sole operators of such a 'bespoke' platform then what is the ROI for them to develop it, unless they charge them very high (with justification given as being sanction-proof)?

Especially considering we are planning to build our own naval planes in the future...