viveks wrote:Rakesh wrote:Pakistan - since independence - has always "whored" itself to the highest bidder.
Kya likhta hain Rakesh...you make me laugh so much.
You are welcome Sirjee
But it is true. Pakistan got the short end of the stick at independence, as Jinnah famously said that all he got was a moth eaten Pakistan. By the time the early 1950s rolled along, Pakistan realized that aligning with America was in its best interest. So in May 1954, Pakistan signed the Mutual Defense Assistance Agreement with the United States, which was quickly followed by CENTO and SEATO. It was the only way, then could ensure security (i.e. free arms) for their new country. But with free arms came Amreeki influence, because nothing is truly free in this world. And Pakistan's geographical location gave the Amreekis an excellent opportunity to get a foot hold in South Asia to counter Soviet influence.
Nehru - with his grandiose non-alignment, appeasement and socialistic views - thought the Soviet model was best i.e. the infamous 5 Year Plan. In the 1950s, the British were reluctant to provide anything of value to India and the Soviets wanted to counter Amreeki influence in South Asia and India was the perfect launch vehicle for them. When the British closed the door, the Soviets opened theirs and India walked right in. The rest is history. But India proved time and time again, that just because Pakistan has a superior platform...it does not translate into automatic victory.
Pakistan's manhood came into question when Operation Smiling Buddha became a success in 1974. Then Pakistan Prime Minister ZA Bhutto famously said that his people will eat grass if they have to, but Pakistan will acquire a nuclear weapon. He on the other hand only ate Sturgeon caviar and other such delicacies. But his people ate grass and smoked copious amounts of ganja. Pakistan switched her alliance from the US and became a dutiful & loyal prostitute to her new master China. It was a mutually beneficial relationship that continues to this day. Whoring is not something new to them. They have been doing it since 1947 and will continue to do it.
But Pakistan's nail in her own coffin was the whole hearted embrace of militant/radical Islam, as a means to achieve her objective. They watered the seeds and then nutured that disease way back in October 1947, when they sent in Pashtun tribal militias into Kashmir....to rape, loot, plunder and capture Srinagar. That failed miserably. They repeated the same feat in August 1965 with Operation Gibraltar. But still failed to get Kashmir. After two spectacular failures, one would have imagined that Pakistan would have learnt their lesson. But no, they repeated it for a third time at Kargil in 1999, albeit this time with regular troops from the NLI. However by 1999, there was little or no difference from Pak Army regulars and jihadis that desperately want their 72s.
The Pakistan of today is nothing like the vision of what Jinnah wanted for Pakistan. It is today a rabid, mental disease infested, malnutrioned (both physically and mentally...a proven fact) nation that thrives on wild conspiracy theories of Ghazwa-E-Hind and other nonsenses. It is being held together by China for her own geopolitical influences, but otherwise is lawless. And Pak Army Gernails are making hay while the sun shines, looting the country and building grand corner plot bungalows. Had Pakistan adopted the course of real world education versus Wahhabism, the country would have been far different. But their obsession over Kashmir was their downfall. It is a cancer that will consume them.
The takeaway and lesson for India is this - nothing, not even Rafale F3R + Meteor, will come anywhere close to the tremendous leverage that India will enjoy by having her own military industrial complex (MIC). You have seen my many arguments with Vivek_K on this and other threads. But his dogged determination and passion, even when his line of argument is completely illogical, for local maal is commendable and admirable. This is where India needs to achieve victory. Real financial and economic security lies in India having her own MIC. Real geopolitical influence can only occur when India has her own MIC.
The real advantage lies in Tejas Mk2 + Astra Mk2 & SFDR + local turbofan. That is when India will have truly arrived. Till then, we have to continue walking the path of multipolar alignment. The goal is not perpetual importing (from 1947 - 2014), but import to lead to independence (2014 to present). That is the goal. That is the objective. And this Govt's record is not perfect, but you cannot shut down the import lobby overnight.
What is the plus in doing screwdrivergiri of somebody else's plane, when you can manufacture your own plane?
viveks wrote:By the same logic them, giving them a fair chance in fight...we must probably pit the Hawk trainer against the JF-17. Enemy does however, deserve respect when he has to meet Allah......ala re ala iska Alah ala!
. In human earth you are such a pervert that you cannot womanize and get a woman to like you...that you dream of 72 virgins...you will probably get 72 chudails in your heaven!!!
The PAF will have a few aces up their sleeve with the JF-17. That is to be expected.
But in an all out air war, the Pakistan Air Force will not survive - as an effective fighting force - beyond a week. I am not being hyperbole here, but just a fact. The military advantage that India holds right now is vast. Pakistan trumps her tactical victories (the loss of a MiG-21, the capture of Wing Commander Varthaman, serving him tea and making him say that the tea was fantastic, etc) as the real victory. If Pakistan really wants to walk down that rabbit hole of tactical victory, then it was the Indian Air Force (IAF) that shot down a F-16 with a MiG-21, with Wing Commander Varthaman handling himself with elan while as a POW, then drank their tea, had Pakistan shamelessly escort him to the Wagah border and then sheepishly handed him over to India. He truly lived up to his father's name (Air Marshal Simhakutty Varthaman), as that of
Son of a Lion.
But India sets aside the loss of a MiG-21 and looks at the real strategic victory i.e. Pakistan now has to think twice before launching jihadis to do extra curricular activities like Uri and Pulwama. Terrorists launch pads are now pushed back, causing more logistical headache for Pakistan. More logistical headache = more money. So as it has always been, it is India - 1 and Pakistan - still 0 onlee.
But an all out air war is unlikely to occur. The escalatory ladder will be too much for them to bear. And China and America will come running to Pakistan's aid, to maintain their own H&D. Remember the lady from the Pentagon who famously said that no F-16 was shot down? She reportedly went to Pakistan and counted all their F-16s
So while Pakistan celebrates tactical victories, India continues to progress ahead. Eventually it will reach a tipping point (we have already reached there, to be honest), where Pakistan will become irrelevant.